Dale Johnson: You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC. I'm so grateful for what Logan shared. And and you know, as you think about counseling, counseling is difficult ministry, personal ministry of the word. But I'm also reminded of pastoral ministry. Pastoral ministry can be difficult, often lonely. You have people who are supportive, but sometimes the load that you carry can be really, really difficult. And there are seasons where maybe sometimes of your own making with unwise decisions or ⁓ just by trial and suffering and difficulty and conflict that may happen. seasons that are dry and difficult. ⁓ I want to encourage you, we we offer a refuge pastors retreat ⁓ in Steamboat, Colorado ⁓ Vista Verde Ranch. And I want to remind you that the application window for our pastors retreat, what we call refuge, ⁓ is open now, but it closes on August 31st. So I want to remind you about that. This retreat, as I mentioned, Fellowship for Biblical Counselors on this edition of Truth and Love. I'm Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. Logan Williams. He serves as an associate minister at Faith Bible Church and as their director of Faith Biblical Counseling ⁓ Center. He and his wife Lindsay have three beautiful children. Is at Vista Verde Guest Ranch in Steambook, Colorado. It is from November the 2nd through the 5th. And it's specifically for pastors and their wives who, through many different challenges of pastoral ministry, ⁓ maybe burdened or in need of some sort of focused encouragement and rest. And this retreat includes dedicated time and counseling, along with time to rest, to meditate on God's word, to enjoy ⁓ relaxing time. I've had the privilege personally of seeing. And Logan is certified with ACBC and he recently completed his PhD in biblical counseling at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. Logan, thanks for being with us today. How much of a blessing this is to the pastors and their wives who come to the retreat. The ministry there is just so refreshing and so good.

Logan Williams: Dale, thanks so much for having me.

Dale Johnson: Logan, you and I met actually a really long time ago. I don't even know, maybe a decade or so ago. And ⁓ you know, this topic came up. I've heard you I've heard you talk about this in conversations that we've had before. And when you when you learned about biblical counseling, you you were just in a very different scenario. You you were maybe the only person at your church, and this was at various churches as you moved and when you were serving, a lot of So please, if you're a pastor or if you know of a pastor that would benefit from a retreat like this, be sure to submit an application on our website before the window closes August 31st. you can find out more about the refuge retreat or all the other we have going on at biblicalcounseling.com. ⁓ aloneness and feeling alone. Nobody else in the church seemed to ⁓ have an affinity toward biblical counseling or maybe an appreciation of biblical counseling. Or even if they did, it wasn't, you know, ⁓ it wasn't as passionate as you were about biblical counseling. ⁓ then I think about, man, progress ⁓ a decade or so later. And now you're at at Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia. You have you run a counseling center with lots of people to fellowship with, lots of people to talk about. ⁓ and encourage and sharpen as far as cases and issues and things like that. It's just a very different world. And as you look back on some of those early days for you, man, the fellowship was difficult and lacking. I can tell you right now, ⁓ there are so many people who maybe they heard a podcast or maybe they came to a conference or maybe they read a book and they love biblical counseling and are passionate about it, but they find themselves in churches or places where, you know what, there just aren't many people. And sometimes that quite frankly is is discouraging and difficult. I want you to talk maybe e certainly out of some of your own experience, but just describe and maybe encourage those who are out there listening where they find themselves where you were ten years ago or or more. And talk about why fellowship i is so important for biblical counselors, ⁓ you know, how for you it's been ⁓ really important as you've grown in biblical counseling and then seeing what the church can do. ⁓ ⁓ with this this means of soul care.

Logan Williams: Yeah, Dale, thanks so much again. And and like you say, it has been ⁓ a road and and I am so thankful to God for the the grace to serve where I get to now. It it really is such a joy. ⁓ but I remember that time vividly and we you and I met in twenty sixteen at the ACBC conference. I remember walking in the door ⁓ and thinking I was to be into all this counseling stuff and I found my people. So if you've never dropped in on an ACBC conference, you gotta get there.

Dale Johnson: Yeah. No.

Logan Williams: ⁓ and just see that you're not alone. There really are others doing it. And yeah, some of my some of my ministry settings it was fairly hostile to biblical counseling and some were ⁓ fine with it, but but kinda kept it in a corner and I was I was the corner.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Logan Williams: And what I found as I began to to ⁓ do more and more counseling is frankly just the burden of interacting with folks in their their trouble, in their sin, and their suffering. And ⁓ as as I've gotten to to do more and and fellowship with other counselors, I've kind of crystallized this phrase in my mind, we shouldn't ⁓ underestimate the amount of evil we face in a given week. And

Dale Johnson: Yeah.

Logan Williams: That just ⁓ it speaks to me to to remind me that we are in the midst of people's hardest trouble. And ⁓ going in there alone is is not only unwise, it's unhelpful. We we're we're lacking ⁓ some of those, you know, resources. I'm I'm even thinking about Galatians six one, which reminds us ⁓ as we as we care for those who are caught in temptation, that we should keep watch on ourselves lest we too be tempted. And so I I just want to ⁓ encourage us all to to be finding that fellowship. And so ⁓ thinking back to myself then, it was really the question of how even in a in a place where I am surrounded by people who are are for biblical counseling, how can I begin to branch out and share some of the burden of doing this work?

Dale Johnson: You know, ⁓ honestly that's so helpful because it can be discouraging. And, you know, w when you're not finding outside support to to help or to spur you on to other things, you you're dealing with a lot of heavy things when you're working in people's lives and ⁓ a lot of difficult things. You're bearing some of that burden yourself. You're having to feel the weight ⁓ what this person is walking through. And man, it it is a difficult thing. ⁓ but but talk about what What hinders that? What what hinders the fellowship that we might have with other believers, other biblical counselors? What are some of the things that make that fellowship ⁓ difficult to accomplish?

Logan Williams: Yeah. If if others' experiences like mine, I'm gonna guess that some of it just comes down to we are often spread out. And so I mean you can look at the find a counselor map or or maybe think about, you know, your nearest biblical counselor and ⁓ certified folks are are are growing, but it's not as though every church has five of them to to share among. but also and and this has been my experience personally, but also as as I've done training or even ⁓ met folks at ACBC events, it's it's sometimes the case that there is a Lack of support from church leadership and they may may have a different perspective on the church's role in counseling, and they may just not even be open to you doing the kind of work of counseling that you're doing. So ⁓ you're a little bit of an underground counselor. It's hard to make friends and fellowship when when that's maybe ⁓ the the dominant theme in the church that you're serving in. ⁓ but Probably the other thing that's just practically difficult, and I think it's difficult for all of us, is that we are carrying this ⁓ the burden of confidentiality and and wisdom in what we share and when. ⁓ Dale, this is kind of funny trivia about me, but my my first job out of college was photographing antique furniture. And so I would spend a day with a French armoire and photograph it and ⁓ set it up to post on a website. Well, if if I needed to talk to somebody about the trouble I was having with a French armoire, that was fair game. But, you know, to share the the real trouble that we face in the counseling room while also not violating the confidences of the person we're caring for makes it hard. And ⁓ we certainly have to be wise and and ⁓ circumspect when we do that.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, and those are just some of the the elements that that can hinder or make fellowship a little bit difficult and and sometimes discouraging ⁓ for sure. ⁓ now talk about maybe some of the practical things ⁓ you know as as you've grown in this, the Lord has put you in in providentially in different scenarios. ⁓ what are some of the things that that could or should be included as we think about fellowship among ⁓ fellow believers who are in the trenches, ⁓ walking along. ⁓ some difficult paths with people trying to hold them up, ⁓ but recognizing full well, I love that you mentioned Galatians six one, that that we're weak and vulnerable people as well. What are some of the things that should be included in this fellowship?

Logan Williams: Yeah. It seems like it would align with with most of the kind of fellowship we'd expect ⁓ from other believers in in any ministry, but maybe just particular to our kind of flavor of ministry is that we'd be praying for one another, right? Just to know that we have men and women praying for for us ⁓ during our counseling time or as we ⁓ go through the week and we're carrying these things and thinking about them to know that we have brothers and sisters praying. Again, that doesn't mean they have to know every in and out of of a case that that's not only probably unhelpful, but not what you agreed to ⁓ in in your confidentiality, but to know that I'm doing this work and I would surely appreciate your prayers. I I think it's huge. ⁓ maybe beyond that is is encouragement to press on. ⁓ I if I got to got to coin another phrase, my other phrase would be: the easy ones don't put in PDIs. And that I've just found that to be true. And and I find when when folks are ⁓ maybe particularly in phase three, I'll get a a call or a text ⁓ of something like, Wow, this is the kind of thing we deal with in counseling. And I say, Yeah, the the easy ones don't put in PDIs, right? This is hard stuff. And it sometimes ⁓ feels like hitting a brick wall. And ⁓ we obviously ⁓ must first and foremost go to the Lord and find his help and find his resources and all that, but it it he also works through his people to give us encouragement and comfort, even second Corinthians one kind of comfort. And so I've I've found both of those things to be ⁓ extremely helpful. ⁓ beyond that, where are you getting ⁓ stimulated and thought with new resources and new ⁓ takes on on passages or how to apply something or you know, something as simple as I found this homework to be really helpful. I think you might find it useful in your future counseling. We've got to have kind of a steady stream of those things so that we ⁓ maybe don't get stuck in one rut and you know, same passage for every problem, same homework assignment for every problem. But we're we're open to to hearing about that. ⁓ and then maybe just ⁓ to put kind of a harder edge on it, sometimes I think we need challenge when our counsel is out of line. I I think we need men and women around us who are aware of the content of our counseling so they can ⁓ encourage us, yes, but also give us some correction. You know, brother, this was ⁓ this is a bit rough. This was unhelpful or ungodly or un ⁓ you know. useful in the the kind of ministry you're trying to do and here's some ways you could correct it. We need that sharpening. And I don't think we're excluded from that just because we're d the ones doing the counseling.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, I I mean those are really helpful ⁓ points ⁓ to be made. I I can think even back to my my early days. ⁓ you know, I I had a supportive pastor, biblical counseling was very, very new and unheard of at the church where we were implementing ⁓ a counseling ministry. ⁓ and and even in that support for me, you know, having people to share successes, having people to share failures and difficulties, having people to sharpen what was you know not readily available and sometimes difficult. I was fortunate to have ⁓ mentors that that I had in seminary who who would ⁓ who I could call and say, man, I'm I'm dealing with this issue and and I don't know w which direction to go. Here's what I'm thinking. And man, they were just so helpful. A lot of people a lot of people don't have that. And so as you mentioned, there are places and spaces and I think you can give some practical helps on things that were were good for you. but, you know, even as you mentioned the conference at ACBC and and other gatherings, the the conference that you guys do at Faith every year. And and usually around the country, things have grown enough from our training centers where where there are gatherings of other biblical counselors who who know the paths that you're walking, know some of the difficulties that that you're facing, you know, for those listeners who are out there and and man, you're resonating with the things Logan is mentioning. So Logan talk. Talk about this because you you are providentially in a very different place now with with great encouragement, wonderful church that's very supportive, a pastor who is very supportive. that's a different world for you, you know, which is exciting and fun. And ⁓ but talk about some of the practical things that that our listeners can pursue when they find themselves, you know, hungering, desiring fellowship ⁓ on this level. ⁓ talk about some of the practicalities here.

Logan Williams: Yeah, thanks. So the thing that I wanna encourage is just to start where you are. And and that may be as ⁓ simple, or maybe this is the baseline, maybe I would say it even like that, is to to begin connecting with your church leadership, your elders, your pastors, and sharing with them again, you know, not the not the nitty-gritty, not the details of people's personal problems, but but just share with them your heart for this ministry and and how God's given you success and how you've found it to be difficult and how they can be a support to you. ⁓ how you want to be a support to the church, right? This is the ministry of the local church. And so we're just ⁓ a part of it in that way. But but start there, right? And and have them on your side and praying for you and thinking about this ministry as you're you're doing it. ⁓ beyond that, if you've got ⁓ folks in your church who really are pursuing counseling or or giving counsel, be sure to connect with them. Don't ⁓ just be kind of parallel lines, but but start to intertwine and connect and and be thinking about how you can spur each other on. ⁓ one of the things that I've found to be really encouraging in in my role here at Faith is maybe once a month or so we'll get an email ⁓ from someone in Georgia just saying, hey, we noticed you guys are a training center. We're trying to do some ACBC stuff. can we connect? Can we have, you know, coffee or or Zoom or something like that. And I'm so thankful to get those calls because I I've been on the other side of those calls and saying we we're just starting. We don't know what to do. So find a training center. Find us reach out and and get connected. To folks who are doing this and they can be a real asset to you. So maybe kind start, you know, local and then work your way up ⁓ as far as the ACBC resources. I'll give you another way to think about this that has kind of been new to me in my time here. And that's look for people that you can engage in the counseling process, even who are not necessarily pursuing full certified training, you know, and they're not ⁓ looking to be the formal counselor or the only one in the room.

Dale Johnson: Usually.

Logan Williams: in in our church we call those advocates and disciplers. And those brothers and sisters have been a huge blessing to me. Those are ⁓ advocates or folks who are with me in the counseling room and maybe they help with homework and they're praying for the counseling. ⁓ disciplers are people I can pass a counseling off to and they can work through fundamentals of the faith with them. But brothers and sisters are dear. They are an integral part of our counseling ministry and yet not had to pursue the full ACBC ⁓ load. And so They can kind of jump in a little sooner. Maybe there's an option for you to to bring somebody on. within all that, I just want to encourage us all, you know, just be wise what you share, right? And ⁓ yet you can share helpful things. How can they pray for you? What resources are you lacking? What are you asking God to do that only God can do that ⁓ that they can be joining in prayer with you for?

Dale Johnson: Logan, thanks so much. This is a helpful conversation. So many people you have to start somewhere and they find themselves, you know, walking a steeper hill than than they had hoped or anticipated. ⁓ but they're setting up something for people in the future at a at a church or in a location. And just what you've seen. Thanks for sharing your your a little bit of your story and by God's providence the way he's ⁓ he's taught you through that and be an encouragement ⁓ to others who are walking that same. same path. So thanks for your time today. Thanks for for sharing some of the insight that you've been given in the beauty of fellowship and how it can be helpful and important.

Logan Williams: Thanks so much, Sue.