Dale Johnson: You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC. We have our final price jumpp coming up for the annual conference rooted in truth. That price jump will come on September the first. And if you're not already registered for our conference, please do so by August 31st to secure the current rate. We will be celebrating 50 years of faithfulness at the annual conference, and we would love for you to join us this year. So, even if you've never been to one of our conferences, please consider coming as we'll focus on what it means to counsel biblically. A lot of what we talked about in our podcast, even today. So, what does it mean for us to counsel from God's Word? What does it mean to be rooted in His Word? We have an in-person and online option for registration. And we also have a group watch option for churches as well. So would you consider joining us this year, whether it's your 50th time or your first time? You can register. The sensualism of gossip on this edition of Truth and Love. I'm Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, ⁓ where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to with me Dr. Andrew Rogers. He and his wife Jenny live in Northern California. They have two married sons, one married daughter, a daughter in college, one grandson, twin granddaughters, another granddaughter on the way. And with over 30 years in pastoral ministry, education, and missions, he serves as the executive director of biblical counseling ministries worldwide. He holds degrees from the Masters University and seminary, as well as the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. at our website, biblicalcounseling.com. And he's a fellow and board member with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Andrew, it's always great, brother, when we get to hang out and especially when we get to talk issues on the podcast. Looking forward to our time today. Talking about one of those things, ⁓ gossip is is sort of like you know, dealing with gluttony. We we know it's an issue, but we don't like to talk about it a lot. I'm glad you're gonna address this for us today. Now, there's a lot of money that's made with tabloids ⁓ in the world. And as a matter of fact, what happens for a lot of people in the evenings, mornings, get stuck in the doom scrolling and they start seeing not just in the written form, but in videos of ⁓ all the different gossip that happens. But that stuff sells. I mean, ads are created and made and

Andrew Rogers: Mm-hmm.

Dale Johnson: Man, so many people get slandered in so many ways, gossiped about. People pass on information as if it's true. what in the world do we do about something like that? Why do you think it is that we as human beings are so drawn to ⁓ type of scuttle butt about people?

Andrew Rogers: Well, don't want to be too simple, but can we just say sin? I mean, just the sinfulness of our own hearts. ⁓ this is why the Proverbs I you have to just love the way the Proverbs describes things. And it's a dainty morsel. And and the whole idea of that is not only is it attractive to, if you will, our our eyesight, but it's attractive to our taste. It's attractive to it feels good.

Dale Johnson: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm.

Andrew Rogers: Not only thinking about it, it feels good looking at it, it feels good chewing on it, and it feels good going down. I mean, that that is just the way it is described for us.

Dale Johnson: Mm. Yeah, that's so true. give us ⁓ sort of like definition when we're talking about the concept of gossip. I think some people, ⁓ know, the classic example of sharing prayer requests and matters like that. Well, maybe we're not familiar with well, what constitutes the concept of gossip. And it's very easy, ⁓ even for us as counselors to, you know, want to ⁓ You know, we wanna keep things confidential, but there are times where we we wrestle with is this appropriate to share information or not? Because, you know, w once you once you start the telephone game in terms of gossip and you share little bits of information, it's hard for people to to keep that information. We've gotta be very careful with it. So give us a little bit of a definition, and some of the maybe ⁓ concerns that we would have about ⁓ this issue of gossip, especially especially related to counseling.

Andrew Rogers: Yeah, well, a number of the words that are used for it in scripture talks about the spreading of secrets or rumors. And oftentimes there's there's also a motive behind it. The motive is typically not for building up someone or even solving a problem. That's why a lot of times we'll just talk about is what I'm talking about or should I know? Am I part of the problem or am I part of the solution? and those that's ⁓ of a good way of of thinking through it.

Dale Johnson: Mm. Y

Andrew Rogers: But it it's often described as spreading, like I said, secrets or rumors. It's motivated for the purpose of slander, meaning, you know, I want you to think of a particular person in a particular way. And and oftentimes it's not good. It's I mean it's placed in lists of evil practices. ⁓ it's also nuanced a little bit at times as complaining.

Dale Johnson: Mm.

Andrew Rogers: It's it's the idea of complaining about someone else. It's the idea of of ⁓ oftentimes we translate it as a whisperer. ⁓ and what's even fun about it is ⁓ you have a word for whisperer that ⁓ that word that I always have a tough time saying, onomonopoeia, where the sound of the word actually indicates what's going on, and the sound of the word has a s ⁓ of sound to it. ⁓ then and it's that idea of just sharing information. ⁓

Dale Johnson: Mm.

Andrew Rogers: But I think there's also something else we have to understand about gossip. It can also be true. So it's not always a ⁓ you know, it's oftentimes described as a tail bearer giving a false report, but it can also be true. but it's spreading personal or confidential information, whether true or false, that is gonna damage a reputation or it's gonna stir division. ⁓ and again, oftentimes it's only serving selfish motives rather than love.

Dale Johnson: I think that's the key distinction, right? That that that selfish intent ⁓ when we're thinking about information. And and we as counselors have to deal with this ⁓ this quite a bit. Now, Andrew, you did ⁓ at our most recent annual conference ⁓ back in twenty twenty five, you did a a breakout on this and you you talk about the concept of gossip as being ⁓ destructive, deceptive, divisive, even disgraceful in God's eyes. I I I want you to describe maybe some of the common situations ⁓ that we see gossip being unleashed in the church and and some of the damage that it does.

Andrew Rogers: Yeah, well, you brought up probably the one and and oftentimes most common is through the form of a prayer request. And funny in prayer, we we sometimes we we think that the Lord needs all the details. ⁓ somehow my prayer is not going to be effective for that person ⁓ I don't give all the details. ⁓ ⁓ and and so ⁓ honestly we're just again serving ourselves. but again we use that as a way, almost euphemistically, as a of

Dale Johnson: Hmm. Yeah. Mm.

Andrew Rogers: of gossip. And and it's ⁓ the way it can work itself out. I think other ways too is we want to share information. And I and I honestly think in some cases ⁓ will misunderstand truthfulness. In essence, if I'm holding on to something, maybe I feel like I'm I'm not being totally honest with you. If I'm holding on to something. ⁓ So there a little bit of an issue there where people wrestle with that. ⁓ am I being deceitful by not sharing that information? And that's why it's so important to understand what gossip actually is and why, as this the proverbs even speak about, the fact that the a good friend is one who's not going to betray your trust. That they're going to keep things that need to be secret secret. And they're not going to betray their trust. And so it's very important, you know, that we think through that ⁓ and understand that you're not.

Dale Johnson: Mm. Mm.

Andrew Rogers: Being deceptive, you're not lying to somebody by holding things confidential. There are stories that are their stories to tell. It's not your story to tell. And we need to genuinely use discernment and wisdom in that issue because I think we all can relate to the fact that gossip kills. Gossip kills relationships. Gossip can kill organizations as well.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Rogers: Yeah, and we we got we just wanna be really careful with it and use a lot of discernment.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, I I think that's that's absolutely critical. You you in your breakout you talk about ⁓ some of the the big ideas related to gossip. You mentioned ⁓ even the proverbs and you know, gossip being like a dainty morsel. And you know, I think about that and and when you know information that you know other people don't know, it's almost like you being a teenager with money in your pocket, man. That thing's burning your pocket up. You know what I mean? ⁓ so ⁓ you think about ⁓ this dainty morsel. Wha why why is it that it it feels so good or it tastes so good, if you will, to share information like this? Why are we so tempted ⁓ in this way? why is it so hard to say no to this temptation of gossip?

Andrew Rogers: Yeah. Some of the other reasons, again, like I said, it it appeals to our sinful heart, it appeals to our pride, it appeals to our selfishness. You know, it's it's juicy in the sense that it's the idea of forbidden knowledge, something you're not supposed to know, and that triggers curiosity. ⁓ that's our Proverbs nine, seventeen, right? Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant. And so there's a little bit of that emotional charge. To it, adds spice, if you will, to your life. ⁓ it makes you feel like you're in the loop. You know, you're you're you're part of a a group, you're you're belonging. it is also sometimes a break from your own life. I mean, when you think about just ⁓ you know a a bell curve, right? ⁓ and ⁓ we talked about this years ago when I was in in media. You know, if you're gonna report on something, you don't you don't want to report what's in the bell.

Dale Johnson: Mm.

Andrew Rogers: That's just normal everyday life. What you really want to do is you want to report on the outliers. And and so it's a break from your own quote unquote mundane life. not only that, but sadly it appeals to our the fun of judging, right? The fun of judging others and making to be a little bit better than somebody else. So there's this addictive pleasure in evaluating someone else's behavior.

Dale Johnson: Yeah. Mm. Yeah, and I I would add this is under that category of pride where you know, ⁓ make ourselves feel better is you tear someone that's down in some way or or reduce their reputation in the eyes of others. ⁓ so it it you know, it's a way of ⁓ sort of self-protection or self-exaltation to some degree as well. now in in your talk you end by talking and ⁓ and this was interesting to me, you end by talking about gossip or temptation of it is an opportunity for discipleship. And and in in our minds those two things might not flow together. Unpack that a little bit, what you what you mean, and how we can start seeking this God honoring speech.

Andrew Rogers: Yeah, first I think we can think through it as assessing our understanding of the holiness of God and our relationship to Him. Again, are my motives and my speech are they God pleasing? Do I want to honor the Lord with my tongue? I not my own and I present the members of my body, including my tongue, and you know, James talks about that's the hardest one to get a hold on.

Dale Johnson: Mm.

Andrew Rogers: ⁓ and then also I think there's a part to play in the sense of help us see gossip for what it is. and I think there's an opportunity for me to look at my own life and say, in what ways do I participate in gossip? One, I share unverified information? And do I share it in a way to make myself seem larger than life or better than somebody else? Do I Do I share that information that could be true or might not be true for the intended purpose of tearing somebody down and making somebody think bad about somebody else? So there's that. The other side of it, though, is not just on my aspect of what I'm saying, but what am I listening to? Am I willing to actually look at somebody and say, hey, I I don't think you should be sharing that with me? That that that seems to be gossip and And just to say if if those are concerns you have about that person, you need to go you need to first go talk to that person or keep completely quiet about it. And am I willing to do that? See, there's a discipleship opportunity for me there, not only as in my speech, but also with my ears.

Dale Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. You know, as you were talking, Andrew, I couldn't I couldn't help but thinking about something we used to do. I grew up in in North Florida, which was, you know, a lot of pine trees and and so at certain times of the year in winter, ⁓ we would we would burn off some of those pine tree rows. And it would help because later in the year if you didn't do that, it would grow up like crazy and ⁓ so when we would burn, ⁓ usually it would start in a line and it would start working its way through. And if we didn't control that in a in a very helpful way, I mean it could be really dangerous. But doing it well, it was actually very profitable. And I think about what you said as being a one who's hearing it, that we have the opportunity to stop it. And we could go as that fire is is very small, you stamp it out and it's not gonna grow any further. But if you let that sucker go, what's gonna happen is it it has potential to pick up fuel and start burning things that you never intended it ⁓ it intended it to burn. I think that was a helpful depiction and and one of the best ways I think for us, you know, as you mentioned as a part of discipleship, stopping that that gossip where it could continue to grow, ⁓ using us as a catalyst, we could be the one who who stamps it out. And ⁓ helpful, brother. Thanks for helping us to think through this. And ⁓ I said ⁓ at the beginning, one of those things that that you know we we don't bring up as often as as we should. ⁓ that's very easy for us to do. It's very tempting for us to do. ⁓ and and keeping ourselves in check according to the word. So thanks for reminding us ⁓ of this ⁓ issue, Andrew. Thank you.

Andrew Rogers: Yeah, absolutely.