Dale Johnson: Laying aside laziness on this edition of Truth in Love, I'm Dale Johnson and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Dr. Glenn Dunn. He's the founding preaching and teaching pastor of Cornerstone Bible Fellowship, established in 2004. ⁓ He holds a master's degree in religious education from Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary and a Doctor of Educational Ministry and Biblical Counseling from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Dr. Dunn has been certified by ACBC since 2002. serves as executive director of the Biblical Counseling Institute, which is one of our training centers. And he also serves as a board member and faculty instructor for Dr. Wayne Mack's Strengthening Ministries Training Institute in South Africa. You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC. This week, we will be hosting our eighth annual leadership colloquium event in Kansas City. This is an event that's dedicated to gathering leaders within the movement to discuss critical issues going on in the biblical counseling world. And this year, we will be discussing the concept of embodied souls. And I hope this event provides clarity for our leaders, which will trickle down to provide clarity for the movement. ACBC members will be able to watch some of the presentations in your membership portal. So be on the lookout for that. For everyone else, the essays that are produced from this event will be published in the Journal of Biblical Soul Care. And this is an opportunity for us to think about and wrestle with these issues from a biblical perspective. So would you please pray for us as we seek to be wise and discerning in producing biblical resources for the issues and problems that people face? So if you would like to check out any of these resources, He's also a board member of The Present, This Present Hope. He and his wife, Beth, live in Cleveland's West Side, and they have two adult children and a son-in-law. ⁓ Glenn, welcome to the podcast, brother. Thanks for being with us.

Glenn Dunn: Thank you so much. Privileged to be here.

Dale Johnson: Now we're gonna talk about laying aside laziness. And you're stepping into one of those areas that that might be a golden calf for a lot of people. You know, one of the things as we jump into this, I'll I'll just tell you broadly one of the things that I'm witnessing that's happening where laziness has has become almost ⁓ endeared as a privilege in some ways. ⁓ you see AI stripping jobs and, you know, we're gonna make money by lots of different ways so that we can really just enjoy laziness that seems to be that we produce you can find those at biblical counseling dot com.

Glenn Dunn: Mm.

Dale Johnson: ⁓ the the privileged, you know, up upper lifestyle is if we can somehow manage to get away from work, have money that's passive income and we just we just roll with life. We're not gonna get into all those details. I'm just saying what's happening culturally. But I wanna ask you, like why do you think some of our attitudes about laziness have really, I don't know, changed in our current culture and and why we see them the ways that we do now. I think about my dad. in the way that he trained us to have a work ethic and and you know, some of that's missing in the culture we live. I I wanna get your opinion why you think ⁓ w our our opinions have changed about laziness in our culture.

Glenn Dunn: It's a great question. I think like so many other things that we face today as Christians, we take the world's perspective. and I you know, work was a part of ⁓ the created order before the fall. And I think we often forget that. And yes, it's good for us to, you know, we don't want to take scissors to cut our grass. We're glad to have a lawnmower. But Which there's areas of laziness and I think this is where we have to be careful. There's physical areas of laziness, there's spiritual areas of laziness. And I think we we've bought into too much as the church, of course, and the worldly ⁓ concepts, but certainly in this area of laziness. Spurgeon I think is very ⁓ helpful when he says no Christian is safe when his soul is lazy. And and so this idea of a spiritual laziness is very, very important. Mostly today we laugh at laziness. You just think of about the lazy boy commercials that you see. You know, I'm gonna take a stand for laziness. And so and it's interesting too, ⁓ Dale, in in ⁓ psychology, some are saying that there's not even such a thing as laziness anymore. There's a book written by ⁓ a person named Devin Price. entitled Laziness Does Not Exist. So a as in all other areas of the Christian life, we can't allow the world to define what our Bibles already tell us.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, and what's good for us, right? I I you mentioned it's the beginning of creation. I always r remind my boys that listen, ⁓ work was was established ⁓ at the beginning of creation, before the fall of mankind. ⁓ And so we just to get happy about the work that we have to do. You're gonna sweat now because of the fall, but work's not because of the fall, right? And and so ⁓ teaching good work ethic. I I appreciate the way you also wove together, we're not saying that rest is bad. Rest is good. We need it as human beings. But there's a distinction in what we call laziness. Now, to to give maybe some more parameters around that, give us an idea of the definition. How how does the Bible describe and identify you mentioned the culture certainly as redefining this concept of laziness, but but our guide is the scripture. How does the scripture define this concept of laziness?

Glenn Dunn: You know, I ⁓ re always remember Randy Patton ⁓ saying, and it took a lot of training from Randy. Randy was my supervisor when I first came into ⁓ biblical counseling, ⁓ what a gift that was. And I always remember him saying, if you want to solve a problem well, you have to be able to define the problem well. And I have never ⁓ forgotten that. And so we know that we've sent entered into the sin of laziness. I think when we do not properly follow through with our Given responsibilities. And that can be true again in our physical responsibilities, but as well as our spiritual responsibilities. I think that's important for people to understand because a person can therefore have areas of laziness and degrees of laziness in a number of areas. And so we have to be sure that we call sin what the Bible calls sin, because if we know that it's a spiritual problem, then we know that there's a A spiritual solution to the problem. So ⁓ as Christians, we don't say that there are no legitimate physical conditions either. I think this needs to be, you know, ⁓ highlighted that that would sap the energy out of people. We we know that that can be true. So we we want to be careful that we're not labeling somebody as being lazy when that's not the issue. So, but when legitimate sickness is the problem. You know, we don't want to call it laziness, but when sickness isn't the problem, we don't want to act like they have a sickness. So we have to, I think, bear in mind that a Christian can be industrious at his physical work. And I think this is particularly true of men. I've been doing counseling for a long time. I think this is it goes back to the curse. I think it goes back to the fact that commands are given to our weakness. You know, when God gives us a command, it's because we're weak in that specific area. And I think specifically this can go back to men. A guy can be industrious at his physical work, but lazy at his spiritual work. His spiritual home can be falling apart. And I think also areas of laziness may not be apparent at first glance to the Christian. But anytime I think anytime we don't complete our given responsibilities when we can and when we should, we're dealing with laziness. And and I guess just to add to that, that means that industrious spiritual people can struggle with areas of laziness.

Dale Johnson: think that's a great warning, Glenn, and and for us to be cognizant of that. This has sort of become maybe one of those quote unquote acceptable ⁓ respectable, respectable sins. ⁓ yeah, Jerry Bridges talks about that I think is really, really ⁓ insightful for us to be wary of, to be cautious of in a lot of different ways that we may be tempted to be lazy. And ⁓ we may pacify our physical work.

Glenn Dunn: ⁓ yep. Jerry Bridges. Yeah. Yeah.

Dale Johnson: And when we're lazy in in spiritual areas and and that becomes a covering for that.

Glenn Dunn: I think every Christian struggles to some degree or another with laziness. And I s and I think especially the struggle is is spiritual. It's why we it's why we often don't follow through with spiritual tasks. You know, so you consider ⁓ personal devotions, you consider prayer in the lives of so many Christians. ⁓ even the Lord's Day, if you consider the Lord's Day worship, you know, one of the most dangerous things about COVID. I remember when we first came back ⁓ to church, ⁓ I put a slide up in our church. It was a man walking down was a cartoon, but a man walking down the aisle in his feetie pajamas and a cup of coffee, and it said, you know, Herb forgot that he had to get out of his pajamas to come back to church on the Lord's Day, right? I mean, we just COVID didn't help and especially I don't think help younger folks. So laziness, I think.

Dale Johnson: Yeah.

Glenn Dunn: is a is often a root problem in the lives of Christians, but with some the root is deeper and stronger than with others. But I think it's always there. And and really Calvin, I think, said that, you know, the three areas of of danger for us, not the seven deadly sins perhaps, but the three an areas of danger for us pride, dishonesty, and sloth. And sloth is, you know, it's a big problem.

Dale Johnson: It's definitely a proper warning. Think thinking about laziness as one of those quote unquote respectable sins, ⁓ we don't talk about it probably enough. We we don't warn ourselves ⁓ enough about this concept of laziness. We don't have a whole lot of books actually written on it. What what have been some of the helpful resources to you, or maybe it's one, I don't know, ⁓ that that would be helpful to to really explore this concept biblically of laziness?

Glenn Dunn: Yeah. You know, Jay Adams in his ⁓ a commentary on the Proverbs, I think was has really been helpful. And this might sound strange, but this book ⁓ by R. C. Sprohl entitled Knowing Scripture actually was has was very helpful for me. In fact, if if I could just share a s a quote from Sproul on this, it says, as Christians, we must struggle against

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Glenn Dunn: sin ⁓ through our entire pilgrimage. None of us is immune. But then he says this. Here then is the real problem of our negligence. We fail in our duty to study God's word, not so much because it's difficult to understand, not so much because it's dull and boring, be but because it's work. Our problem is not a lack of intelligence, and this I think is so important. It's not a lack of passion. Our problem is that we are lazy. And I I think that was very ⁓ instructing to me because so often you would say I grew up in the church, I was saved young, thank I thank the Lord for that. And so often you think, you know, I just need I need zeal. I need I need to pray and ask God for more zeal. It's not my problem hasn't been zeal. My problem is that I am spiritually lazy. And and I need to address that fact. And I think most Christians would would say very happily, ⁓ I need more zeal. But most Christians wouldn't say, well, you know, I'm I really struggle with spiritual laziness. But I think Sproul nails it nails it ⁓ on the head right there. And and that book was really just very helpful for me, knowing scripture by sprawl, ⁓ to deal with this area of the now the book isn't about that per se, but it was very helpful for me. I think another one too that's helpful, particularly for guys, is The Disciplines of a Godly Man by R. Ken Hughes. ⁓ I found that to be. I read that a number of years ago. And in fact, we're doing it now for our men's Bible study. And one of those books where you close it and each chapter you're sort of confessing, you know, as you as you finish the chapter. So and I think, of course, Adams, Adams, Jay Adams is so insightful. And he says this when dealing with ⁓ the issue of laziness, the biblical pastor, biblical counselor, Christian parent, or friend. And this is so classic, Dr. Adams, but necessary. He has he shouldn't mince words. The lazy man is called lazy. No excuses are made for a sloth. He's not diagnosed as having low energy or a midlife crisis or chronic fatigue syndrome. He's simply called lazy. And that sounds like classic, Dr. Adams, doesn't it?

Dale Johnson: Well, clear is what I would say. And and man, if we need ⁓ anything today, it's clarity on on these types of things that we're aware of, you know, w what we're gonna be held accountable to according to God's word. And that's what we need most. You know, as you talk about this, Glenn, and and you acknowledge, which I think is absolutely correct, how much this is a cancer for all of us to some degree. It it it people can swing in the other direction. It it might bolster some people and muster

Glenn Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dale Johnson: ⁓ zeal to say, man, I I I don't want to be found that way. For other people, it could lead them to hopelessness as if, man, if everybody struggles with this, can I really overcome it? ⁓ can we, and maybe a little bit, how do we overcome this sin of laziness?

Glenn Dunn: Yeah. Well, thank goodness, victory, as with all of our sins, again, if we if we want to ⁓ define it well, if we define it as a spiritual problem, there's great hope for that. As in this is why biblical counseling is such a blessing to the church, right? Because if it's a biblical problem, then there's a biblical solution. And then certainly God gives us that. And victory, as with any of our other sins, it comes through. The word of God and knowing the word of God and and being dedicated ⁓ to the word of God. And in Luke chapter four, I think Jesus gives us a a prime example, a wonderful example, in that Christ had the word of God memorized. And since he's our perfect example in all things, he shows us how indeed we can have victory. So for victory over laziness, it's it's important for counselees as we're dealing with them to say. First of all, you have to acknowledge it. You have to confess it. Look, this is sin. And you need to own it that it's sin. But as you do that, then you're in a place where you can begin to have victory over that. And then let's begin to look at some scripture. And the proverbs are very helpful. You asked about a book. The proverbs are extraordinarily helpful in looking at a biblical perspective of laziness and and then how we can. gain victory over our laziness. And the way of escape ⁓ to victory is always knowing and using the word of God. That's the model of First Corinthians ten, thirteen, right? When I can't run away, when I can't avoid it, what do I do? Well I have the word of God. And and I think too the pattern which I I think we all teach as biblical counselors that the put off put on pattern in Ephesians chapter four, twenty-five through thirty-two is really so instructive for us and so helpful. So as I deal with counselees, it is to help them to see that this, you know, the biblical issue and then to own it is sin. You know, John Bunyan says some wonderful things in the description of sin and what is sin. And one of the things that he says is the jeer of God's patience and it is the rape of his mercy. I mean, when you begin to think about sin the way that God thinks about it, you're gonna defend doing it less, you're gonna you're gonna desire to do it less. So, you know, these things all sort of come together for us in the counseling setting. And and people the goal for me in counseling, as I know you know this, is is to really help to people to think biblically about their sin. And once they do that, there's no going back. I mean they might retreat to the sin again, but you can't do it in a way that is without knowing what your Bible says about this and what you need to do about that. So I think that pattern of putting off and and putting on is so helpful. ⁓ and I think you have to start you have to start small ⁓ with those who are struggling with laziness. You know, you can't just say, hey, I expect this all to be finished ⁓ you know, by next week. You have to give small homework assignments. You have to give them time to see victory and move forward. And and and you know, give hope.

Dale Johnson: Yeah. that actually leads into my last question, the the concept of giving hope. I I don't know if you've dealt with this. I I see this a lot in counselees where ⁓ you you can present to them, they see what they're what they're doing, in this case, laziness, that they're being sinful. But but you can almost watch them calculating what's happening in the moment and they're thinking, you know, ⁓ is it worth it me to do X, Y, and Z? Will I feel better? Will this work out better? It's almost like they're managing, not thinking about obedience and ⁓ the blessing of obedience and walking with the Lord, but it's they're they're managing in a in a sort of a selfish, as we do as humans way, to say, you know what, I I sort of like my laziness and I'm gonna stick with it because while life might be a little bit better, that's risky and I I gotta change and do something different. But what but what always seems to help is if you can give that person hope, ⁓ not just help them to see, yes, they're sinning and what they're doing.

Glenn Dunn: Yeah.

Dale Johnson: But but how do you give them hope? That becomes really an ultimate motivator. Talk a little bit about what can we do to give people hope who are lazy.

Glenn Dunn: Yeah, I think it's so important for the lazy person, the one who admits his laziness, to know that his sin isn't greater than God's promises to him. And and God promises that he is going to make that person look more like himself. Now, of course, we're assuming that this lazy person is a Christian, right? All the way along. And that's a promise to cling to. And I love to take people to First Corinthians chapter two and verse 16. It's such an extraordinary verse. Because ⁓ Paul says there, we have the mind of Christ, right? So we can think biblically about this thing. We can, and as we think biblically, that's going to help us to act biblically. And I and again, we've I think we've mentioned First Corinthians 10, 13. It's common, but you can have victory over. God promises that you can have victory over. And so, yeah, the sin is strong. Yeah, the the desires of that sin are strong. This is true for any sin, right?

Dale Johnson: Yeah. Yeah.

Glenn Dunn: But the word of God and the indwelling spirit are stronger. That's why John writes first John four four, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. So there you know, as with all sin for the counseling, there's great hope in this. If I can, one more ⁓ sprawl quote on this from from that book. Sproull said this, we do well to remember Martin Luther's insistence that at the same time we're justified, we're also sinners. Until we are glorified, we will struggle with sin. And then he says, How however, we must not let this knowledge make us think that we can have no real victory over sin. We have a Savior who has sent his spirit to enable us to resist all the temptations of the flesh. I mean, it just, you know, that makes a Baptist shout hallelujah, right? They just say Well well, pray praise God for for this great hope that we have over our remaining sin. You know, the apostle Paul struggled with remaining sin, and so will we, but we have we can have victory over.

Dale Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Glenn, honestly, this is so good. most damaging sin for all of us is the ones that we don't recognize. ⁓ ⁓ so grateful that something that's being acceptable, even promoted as good and healthy and right in our culture, that that you're helping us to see, not to be fooled by that cultural movement, ⁓ but to to be aware what God calls sin and and be able to to call it what it is. Well, what I see is people, ⁓

Glenn Dunn: Mm. Yeah.

Dale Johnson: they lack meaning, purpose, and value whenever they fall into these types of temptations of laziness. And they don't see that God creating a space for us to work, to be diligent, to pursue Him, as you mentioned, put off and put on, the activities we're called to do. ⁓ that that those things are a part of the meaning, purpose, and value of the way God designed us to to live. And what that does for the human spirit, for what it does for us. in our inner man is something that is radical and different. It it ⁓ empowers us by his spirit to to go about our day and to do things as unto the Lord. I mean, ⁓ all the things that we're overcoming, but we're often blinded to. And so thank you for focusing on this, helping us to see it. ⁓ and hopefully this will be helpful to to many. I I do want to mention that that Glenn at our recent conference you did a breakout on this. And so if people want more, they can go to our website and find this particular talk that you did. It's the title of ⁓ of this, podcast laying aside laziness. And so ⁓ thank you, brother, your diligence. Appreciate your work up in Cleveland. Keep up the good work and thanks for being with us today.

Glenn Dunn: Thank you, brother. We appreciate all you guys are doing at A C B C. Thank you so much.