Dale Johnson: You're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of ACBC. Now, I want to remind all of you of some really incredible resources that we've been able to produce over the years. We have several booklets on various issues in biblical counseling that we have produced as helpful primers for biblical counselors. We've produced two series so far, the biblical solution series and the critical evaluations series. The booklets in the Biblical Solution series give a biblical perspective on specific issues that people may face in everyday discipleship or counseling, and the booklets in the Critical Evaluation series serve as an introductory biblical evaluation of a specific counseling methodology that's popular in the secular counseling world. And these are excellent resources for anyone with a desire to help others with problems that they're facing. And can find out more about these particular booklets and the different series that we offer and the topics that we discuss, along with many other resources, at our website, biblicalcounseling.com. War of Words on this edition of Truth in Love. I'm Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Matt Mumma. Matt serves as a counseling pastor ⁓ at Cornerstone Church in Jackson, Wyoming. He's been on the leadership team at Cornerstone since 2008, and Matt earned a BA and an MA in biblical counseling from the Masters University. He also serves as a fellow with ACBC. Matt and his wife Sarah were married in 2007, and they have four kids ranging from 17 all the way down to 13. Matt, so good to have you with us today talking about this important topic related to communication, brother. So thanks for being with us and taking time.

Matt Mumma: Yeah, thanks, Dale. I'm excited to be here.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, so looking forward to our conversation. Obviously, this is a question that we get all the time about communication, particularly not just in marital relationships, but in all types of relationships, learning how to communicate. You know, it's been interesting. Give a word of personal testimony, something I've focused on even with my own children, trying to teach them how to communicate well rather than assuming what somebody else, you know, is thinking or that, you know, you know what you're thinking, but making sure you're communicating it well and man, it can lead to all sorts of problems when communication is not going well. what I want us to do is take a look at ⁓ and how we talk, how we speak, how we think about how we speak, and obviously apply that in the counseling room. Now, what's important to us is learning to apply what we know the Scripture teaches about the concepts of communication. we're going to do this as we a little bit through ⁓ the book of James, So I want you to give a little bit of background and context in some of the ways that you see ⁓ James being very instructive, very helpful ⁓ as we think about the practical application of how we speak to one another in relationship.

Matt Mumma: Yeah, no, I would agree. Just a brief word there. Just when we're thinking about ⁓ just communication, just even in their own families, we all need to grow in various ways and we all are going to understand and interpret and see things in various ways. And so that's why I think, I think James is very helpful in many respects to that. ⁓ And in fact, as you kind of read through the entire book, as I was reading through it again this morning, every chapter of James speaks to some degree. of how we are speaking, how we are communicating to one another. And it's just a very practical sort of book in that sense. And one of the things also that we want to be careful of in counseling is we're helping people to think through their communication, their poor communication skills or whatever it may be, is not just going to maybe an isolated text, like maybe James 1, know, 19 or something like that, and forgetting the broader context. Many people will, I think, unfortunately look at James as sort of the Proverbs of the New Testament in the sense of just looking at practical life wisdom. That's a sort of scattered collections of helpful sayings, but not really anything that's coherent. I think that's a mistake because as you see throughout the entire book of James's main theme is just the testing of our faith, the genuineness of our faith. And in large degree, especially in chapter three and four, as we're probably most familiar, is that how we speak is really going to prove the genuineness of our faith in many regards. If we're constantly just looking at or saying words that are just hurtful and damaging and cause a great fire, as James says in chapter three, that's really a revelation of what's going on. inside what we're worshiping, what we're really desiring. And so as we're thinking about how to help people think through their communication issues, we just want to make sure we're looking at what is the broader context? What is James really getting at here and really helping people to see it's not just, again, maybe some principles or tricks or tips for better communication or how we can speak better, but really what is going on internally.

Dale Johnson: Now I want to talk about that. I'm glad that you brought that up. It's not about just tips and tricks. I grew up in the South and so I didn't learn to write well. I don't think I'm a wonderful writer. So being able to communicate sometimes in that way I use Southern slang and so it doesn't really come across as maybe it should. And you know what? We think sometimes communication is about just refining the ways in which we speak, ⁓ And we can take a tutorial and we can learn how to say different phrases as opposed to slang words that maybe don't communicate well or whatever. ⁓ But it's not. Like, biblical communication is so much more. You mentioned the context, for example, of James 1.19, be quick to listen, slow to speak. Well, that's helpful in and of itself, but there's a whole context. We remember ⁓ what he's describing at the beginning of the book is various trials. that speaking, interacting is, there's no excuse for the ways in which we speak. know for me, greatest failures I have in communication sometimes is built around me justifying myself or excusing myself because of a context that I find myself in, when in reality, ⁓ the things that James is calling us to hear in the context of the various trials that he's introduced at the very beginning of the book is quite astounding, as if there's not justification for things coming out of my mouth. Well, that leads us to start asking the question, okay, what motivates... how we actually respond to people. ⁓ When we do see our communication get more intense, maybe more loose with the tongue in tight, ⁓ refining difficult situations. ⁓ And so how do we diagnose? How do we see? How do we understand that? We've got to understand communication is coming from somewhere. And James actually gives some indication on where this communication comes from. Talk a little bit about that motivation.

Matt Mumma: Yeah, think we see that in several places in James, but I think in particular, and probably in just ⁓ the more clear way in chapter three and four, ⁓ where this is the famous section on the tongue, ⁓ where he's really helping us to see just how destructive our speech can be, how, know, in verse... ⁓ versus five and six there, James three, how the tongue is like a great fire. You have a small little spark. You can where I live here in Wyoming, we have a lot of forest fires and they're often just caused by maybe a a little spark, little lightning. mean, why you strikes aren't little, but a lightning strike on one little piece of land. And it, it, it can destroy an entire entire forest. And so our words really have the power, unlike anything else in our lives to utterly destroy. relationships, utterly destroy things that we've maybe worked hard on. But again, we need to see that those little tiny words that we might think aren't big deals, they're coming from, really as James gets into later on in chapter three in verse 11, they're coming from internally, they're coming from our hearts. He says in verse 11, does a fountain pour forth in the same spring both fresh and bitter water? Can a fig tree my brothers produce olives and produce or vine produce figs, norcan salt water produce fresh. What he's saying there is look, if we are speaking these words that are like deadly poison verse eight, speaking words that are like a fire, it's because of what's going on inside. It's speaking about what is internally what we're worshiping, our desires, our hearts that are leading to us having this untamed tongue that is really unlike anything else that we have in life.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, and I think what's critical there is sometimes we act as though through, you know, different learning or ways that we refine our communication that that's going to be some sort of a salve that overlays and compensates for the motivation that's happening in the heart. But until the heart itself is addressed, then the ways that we speak are not going to be different. We have to remember, too, in our communication, you know, we can say the right words, but if it's not detected as coming from the right heart disposition. I mean, I can think of different ways where, you know, I'm savvy enough that I can say the right words to my wife, but she's been around me long enough to know if this is coming from a heart that's motivated in genuine love toward her. If I'm just saying, you know what, I'm tired of fighting, let's just say what's right, move on. She can detect that. Well, how much more so if we look at the outward appearance, but God looks, the Bible says, at the heart. And I think this is one of the keys in this passage that you bring up here in James chapter three, and then moving into chapter four, where he really unveils what should drive how we talk, how we think. And I love the way that you're putting this into context. So often in our modern context, we think about communication as just refined overt skill, or we think about method in the counseling room as being some sort of psychologically derived technique, when in reality, when we see the Bible in itself within context, the writers are actually expressing through the Holy Spirit the beauty of how we should communicate, what that should be motivated by, how that is actually changed to get an outcome of words that are different. And it's not just a mere retooling of the communication itself. that's the symptom, right? It's getting at something different. Talk a little bit about how chapter 3 transitions into chapter 4, and it gives us some real significant insight as to what really grabs the heart, what really grips the heart of man so that he really genuinely communicates differently.

Matt Mumma: Exactly. Yeah, ⁓ you know, as we, again, we often look at chapter four in counseling, especially chapters, or excuse me, verses one through three about conflicts, and I think we rightly go there to really help people to see, the reason for our conflicts is not the situations, it's not the circumstances, it's, as he says in verse one, it's our pleasures, it's our lust, verse two, ⁓ that we are desiring more than we're desiring to love God or to honor God. But we often stop there in verse three and we don't look at the broader context and really look at, look, if the reason we are having poor communication with our spouse or with our kids or our neighbor or somebody else in the church or whoever it may be, isn't again, merely because of the circumstances, it's not because of how they're treating me or what they're saying. It's really looking at verse four, ⁓ we're adulterers or adulteresses. We're friends with the world. We are loving and desiring the things of the world, which is really hostility, he says, against God. And so again, the solution isn't just, okay, let me figure out how to say different words because internally, I haven't really changed. ⁓ And we're looking at, again, more than just the words themselves. It's the motivation. It's the desires behind those words. So the solution... to those things is a humility before God. We have there in verse six, says that God is opposed to the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. And one of the things too, as you look at chapter three and four, that if you're sitting with a couple in counseling, you're sitting with a parent and a child and they just can't get along and they're just buttin' heads all the time, it could, really what James is trying to get at here is your speech, your words, your communication. It is a revelation of your heart and it could mean really is your faith genuine? Are you really a believer? Is your speech any different than maybe how you used to speak before you claimed Christ, before you came to Christ? Or is it the same? And so I think James is really trying to get out here that the genuineness of our faith is going to be revealed.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Matt Mumma: and how we're speaking to one another, how we're communicating with one another, how we're resolving conflicts, again, with our speech with one another. And that's a huge factor that we need to make sure we're helping people to see, because oftentimes in counseling, their hearts are gonna be revealed, and sometimes it comes out they're not really converted. And so, again, we don't wanna just give them just some big different communication tools or principles without helping them to see, know, verse... Eight, draw near to God, and He'll draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. I think that's just a critical aspect that we need to help our counselors understand.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, and I think this is such an instructive piece for us to learn ⁓ about counseling specifically is what the secular psychological world does is they'll look at the concept of communication, they'll say, okay, that's not going well. And they'll make that the problem as opposed to the communication being the symptom. And so the solution then runs after, okay, how do we refine the way that we speak? Right? If your wife wants to hear words of affirmation, then You need to learn what those key phrases are that actually affirm her. Well, okay, you know, communicating differently, well, that's helpful. To learn how to communicate differently, that's helpful. But that's making communication the problem, not the symptom. And we have to remember in biblical counseling that that's what communication is. Communication is a reflection of the heart. If you lack humility, then what's going to come out of your mouth is not that which is pleasing to the Lord. It's not, as Ephesians 4 would say, It's not thinking of the one that you're speaking to to give grace to the one who's hearing. You're actually speaking for the sake of yourself, which is not a humble disposition at all. You know, it's interesting to me that ⁓ when you talk to people, it's so foreign to them to say, you know what, in this communication issue, they just want to know, tell me what to say. How can I get better at this? When in reality, we say, you know what, here's the first and primary pursuit is let's die to ourself in this way. what are the ways we see pride creeping up in how you speak, right? And I think that's really important that the strategy in the Bible, sometimes why we miss it, is because the Bible's not saying, well, okay, let's just change your speech in this way, this way, and this way. The Bible's actually targeting the thing that's driving the source of the communication. And man, that's freeing and helpful, but it connects the dots for people to see why it's important that we would say, you know, I think in this case, what we need to do is die to these particular desires, die to these particular aspects of where you see pride creeping up, of which communication is just merely the indication of what's happening in the heart. And that's why biblical counseling strategy strikes differently. Matt, do this for us. You've done a good job explaining kind of textually from chapter one all the way through chapter four and some of the, not all of the things in there, but some key nuggets of how we often talk about communication. bring us just in a practical sense, right? You mentioned some relational conflict between ⁓ parent and child or husband and wife. ⁓ Talk about maybe some of the ways that you might implement some of this with ⁓ a counseling situation where there's conflict.

Matt Mumma: Yeah, so a couple of things that I try to do with folks, especially like in a marriage situation, is when I'm giving them homework, I want them to begin to see the context. So I'll just say, look, read through the entire book of James this week between our next meetings a couple of times, a couple of chapters a day, or maybe you want to read it in one sitting, that's fine. But read through it a few times. And as you're reading through it, I want you to make note in the Bible, make note in a journal. Every verse every passage that James is speaking about our speech. How is he speaking about our communication? ⁓ And then really try to start to evaluate. Okay, where like where am I in this? How am I applying this? Where am I sitting in these ways? And in what way is this verse? How is this revealing of my heart? ⁓ Especially you can it's chapter three and four get a little more specific. Okay, like how is my speech here? How is this indicating where my heart is before the Lord? ⁓ Is my speech, is it revealing that it's a world of ⁓ deadly poison and fire, or is it looking at, is there some self-control here? Verse three, is there the selfish ambition and jealousy, or is there a sense of peace and good fruit and mercy that's coming out of my speech? So really helping them to evaluate, again, their own heart before the Lord by just slowly going through James throughout.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Matt Mumma: throughout a week or two, a couple weeks, or however long we do together. And really helping them just to dive deeper in, helping them to learn how to study this on their own by going verse by verse. That's just, you know, that's one of many ways you could kind of walk through this with somebody.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, that's helpful. One of things that I'll do is I'll add to what you just said, is I'll have them create a communication log where when they've had interaction, some of the ways that they've been successful and how they communicate. And then I also want them to write down ⁓ what were moments where tensions got high and what came out of your mouth was not healthy and not good. because it will start to reveal exactly that James is telling their story. And I'll connect what they're saying to help them to see like in this moment, what James is describing is this is where this ember is coming from and now fire is flying out of your mouth. And so that really that type of log really helps us to work backwards then and say, okay, now you can see what James is saying is actually describing your life specifically. So how do we how do we die to that? ⁓ I tie it often to Philippians 2 or Ephesians 4.29, ⁓ where are you speaking for the sake of the other person or are you speaking for your sake? And what you often see is when those fiery things come out of your mouth, it's really you're speaking on behalf of yourself as opposed to speaking for the good of another person, thinking through something that brings grace to the one who's hearing. Man, this has been really helpful. And this is what we mean when we say the Bible is full of methodology. The Bible has methods that are abundant to help us. We just have to see biblical anthropology the way the Bible describes it versus the way the secular psychological world describes it. Matt, thanks for helping us think through James, you know, the whole book, and you can see how relevant it is. You know, one final word I've just thought about. I had a professor one time who he couldn't remember the addresses of verses, but the Bible was just so saturated in him. and he would always say, you know what, ⁓ I can't remember where this verse is, but it's in James somewhere, go read the whole book, it'll do you good. And honestly, like as we work through the book, you can see the beauty of how the Lord's—you shouldn't look at a concordance and just say, you know, these are all the passages about communication or words that come out of our mouth. It is connected to God's wisdom and how He sees us, what we're wrestling with internally, as to— how and why we speak the way that we speak. The beauty of Scripture is just so helpful. Thanks for pointing our hearts to that ⁓ today and helping us to think through this war of words.

Matt Mumma: Amen. Thanks, Dale.