speaker-0: Theological contradictions in integrationism on this edition of Truth in Love. I'm Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Dr. Josh Griner. He serves as a lead pastor at Berean Baptist Church. He received his BA in political science from Purdue University, his MDiv from Faith Bible Seminary, his THE ⁓ and Doctor of Education from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. He's an ACBC certified counselor, grader, and fellow. He's married to Shanna and has four children Winston, Cecilia, Lorelai, and Edwin. I don't know if you know this, Dr. Griner, but one of my twins, her first name is Lorelei. And we don't call her by that, but she goes by Annadale. But yeah, so you don't see that name very often. And that's really cool. Very small, very, very cool. So I love when I see things like that.

speaker-1: That's small world.

speaker-0: All right, we'll get we'll get to our task today. We're going to talk about the theological contradictions in integrationism. Now, that's a mouthful, so I'm going to give you a chance to to sort of catch us up here. But one of the most important things that I hope we're able to accomplish today is really helping people to see the implications behind our theological positions, not just the confessions that we make, but the things that we do that express what we really believe theologically. And what we see coming out in the practice of integrationism often unwittingly undermines our theological positions, the confessions that we actually make. So I'm looking forward to see how you're going to lead us in some of this today. So we hear this word integrationism. So I want you to break down what this title is is sort of about. We hear about this word integration, integrationism in Christian circles. And honestly, like it seems very, very wide. Lots of people, it's the common means in our culture to think about Christian type therapy. So d define this concept of integration for for our listeners.

speaker-1: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on the ⁓ program here today. Thank you, Dr. Johnson. You know, first I would say the way that I'm going to define it is I'm going to use their own words. That's part of the the contradiction part of all of this. This isn't me using my words. This is them using their words. And and these words, they're found in the two five views books. I assume a lot of folks folks would be familiar with it. But if not, I'm assuming we can drop a link to those five views. And those counselors and therapists. That they share with us what they believe. We don't gotta make up their answers. We can just read their answers and then highlight, I think, what are some of the biggest issues that that as Bible believing serious Christians can look at. And here's what they say what is integration, right? This is the most common view kind of out there of when people think about going to see a Christian counselor. Although sometimes now they say biblical counselor and and you gotta are you really going to see a biblical counselor? What did they say? Here's how they define it. And and I I think that their definition hinges on one word. Like every once in while you you come to a Bible passage and the whole interpretation's on one word. I think it's in here in one word. They say integration is integrating Christianity and psychology and living out of the lordship of Christ. I like that. Over all existence by giving his special revelation its appropriate place. That's where I think the things begin to hinge in a different direction of authority in determining our fundamental beliefs and practices toward all reality. I hear that, and that might sound good to some people. They just said we're going to give God's word its appropriate place of authority. I now look, I believe in Sphere sovereignty, God set up all these institutions given them. But what they're hinting at in their definition is the word of God, his special revelation, it's got a place, and it's not the place that you think.

speaker-0: Yeah, it it certainly leaves room open for other things competing with authority relative to knowledge and and that sort of thing. Now, as we think about integration, ⁓ what they're saying is they're they're gonna bring together the concepts of Christianity, the theological dispositions of Christianity, those non-negotiables that that we love so dear, that the Lord has graciously preserved in his church by his truth over years and years and years against tons of onslaught. So they're claiming that they're gonna uphold that. And then they're also gonna mix that, syncretize that with modern findings of secular psychology. And those two worldviews, quite frankly, are are opposed to one another. And and the the deeper you dive in into finding out what both segments, Christianity and psychology, actually think and believe and the foundations of them, you start to see, I think, much more clearly how distinct they really are and that they're they're building upon two different ways, worldviews as we would call it, of of seeing reality or what what's here in the present world that that we live in, that we experience and so on. Now, let's get back to this. One of the most concerning points really around integration is the discussion about how integration actually happens. I think it's important to talk about how this actually happens and and not even integrationists agree fully on this concept. You mentioned the five views book, there are a couple of those that that have been written in recent past and and I think it's it's interesting to see that not every integrationist ⁓ agrees with how that should actually function. So talk about some of the ways that integrationists say that that this type of integration should actually happen that that may lead to a contradiction.

speaker-1: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I think that's good to get to the meat of it here. You know, I'll say, and I agree with you and echo, not everybody is lockstep and key with what was written, but but I do think the vast majority of people would affirm a lot of what they said. And I think that they would affirm what I'm going to argue for here. They they mentioned just in the beginning: look, look, embrace that there are no concrete steps. There is no formula for integrating. The psychologies of man and the timeless word of God. And and and that's kind of setting the stage for what they'll encourage you to do next, which is to know your Bible. And again, I think that that sounds really nice on the outside. Okay, we want our psychologists to know the Bible. We want our integrationist friends to know their Bible. The problem is so many of them, right out of the gate, they're coming at it from. So many different epistemological backgrounds that quote unquote knowing your Bible, that's gonna look way different. Now, let me say, for example, I've got Presbyterian friends, good Presbyterian friends in ACBC. I love them. I can't wait to get to heaven and tell them how wrong they were. But but we're approaching the Bible in a fundamental way very similar. We're coming to disagree on some things. That's that's okay, but But our approach to the sufficiency, the inerrancy, the clarity of scripture, these things, they're very similar. The epistemological background that they're coming from, very different. So telling them to know their Bible, first of all, it's not very helpful. And second of all, often when you push in on those integrationists and you ask them to how well do you know your Bible? The answer is not very well. They don't know the passages very well. They're not exegeting very clearly. They don't know the context. They they might sprinkle in a thing here or there, but but they don't really know it that well.

speaker-0: Yeah, and and I think that's sort of a an acknowledged reality in the history of integration. I mean, you have lead lead guys like Gary Collins who would acknowledge that reality, that most of them, their terminal degrees are not in theological dispositions. They are or or in disciplines, but they are in the secular psychological world. And and so that's sort of what's built their frame. And so there's an acknowledgement of that in in the world of integration. Now, ⁓ for us, and and I want to start to draw maybe some of this distinction, biblical counseling. We focus a lot on the heart. We we even in our fundamentals training, we talk about the heart being the target. So we're always aiming at the heart. We're we're one of our primary goals, I would call it a key tenet or the roots of biblical counseling would be we're aiming at sanctification. That that's that's a key primary thing that we're focusing on. That's it's about biblical change. And we believe that the scripture is sufficient to guide us in that direction and how to help a person to walk in in sanctification. But for integrations, this is this is distinct. This is different. This is not one of their primary focus for them. And this is where I think it gets it gets very interesting. And you know, I don't know what you think about this, but I've seen what I would call a domestication of of Jay Adams, a domestication of David Pallison to some degree where Lots of integrationists recognize, man, yeah, we need to be a little bit more religious, spiritual, Christian in how we think about some of this stuff. So they start to use language, theological language, spiritual-like language, but there's still this tension, right? And this tension is between the concepts of mental health, what the goals are with mental health, which is not sanctification, which is not heart change. And so, how do we distinguish an integrationist in in the way they they have different aims with mental health? goals and spiritual formation goals. And those two things seem to be at odds with one another.

speaker-1: As you were talking, a passage came to my mind. And that was Matthew 12. And this is right in the midst of Jesus arguing with the Pharisees. They demand a sign. They want Jesus says, No sign, but the sign of Jonah. And then he moves into this interesting observation that I think sets up biblical counseling in terms of goals versus integrationism, where Christ says, When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person. And it passes to waterless places, seeking rest, finds none. It says, I'll return to my house from which I came. It comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. And the result is Jesus says, the state is worse than it was before. I think psychology is really good at getting the house swept, cleaned, and put in order. But here's what's really problematic: is empty. And because it's empty. It's worse than it was before. So you might be able to go down a path, perhaps, not saying yes or no, and go down a therapy, and you might feel better. Your house might look swept and cleaned. You might not be so mean. You might not be so depressed. But the truth is you're empty on the inside. And The goal of biblical counseling is not to necessarily sweep and clean and put in order and leave the house empty. It wants to fill it with Christ. It wants to fill it with sanctification. And the truth is, integrationists cannot do that. They're sometimes even prohibited legally from doing that, but their tools prevent them from filling an empty house.

speaker-0: I think that's such a great point and really good example from Matthew twelve that you mentioned. And essentially what's happening is is integration is they're they're trying to use secular tools that are made from the flesh to accomplish spiritual results. And and biblically, we know that those two things are actually at odds. The the are we now being perfected by the flesh, having begun by the spirit, Paul asks in Galatians. I mean, this is a primary distinction. And it's an important distinction. Now, people may disagree with that. And that's okay, but that's not biblical counseling. So what what we're describing is something different. That would be in the category of integration. So as we start to look at at what integration actually looks like in the counseling room, I think we're starting to get somewhat of a picture, even from the passage you mentioned in Matthew twelve, that there is this sort of dealing with the outside of the cup, right? Is another example that Jesus gave. Dealing with the fruit in Luke chapter six. ⁓ dealing with the outside things, the the presentations, the behavior modifications, so on, rather than heart change, which is a an intrinsic, important, non-negotiable in the concept of biblical counseling. So what does it look like for an integration, ⁓ an integrationist who uses some of these secular tools really to try and make change within a person rather than the word of God?

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think again, you just look at how they talk, you look at even how they, if you go to their website, many times it'll describe their degrees, their pedigrees, and then even the the treatment focuses that they use. They're telling you when somebody says, I do EMDR, I do cognitive behavioral therapy, I do, and then they list whatever, they're telling you, here is the tool that I will use to help you. And here is my understanding of the problem. And it bears out when you talk with them. They don't describe, look, we have a person who's struggling with pride. No, they they got narcissist personality disorder. That's what they have. So so when it comes to the care and the therapy, I just think it it shines right away for all of the talk of integrating and pushing the things together. What ends up happening, even in their writing, is And their diagnosis is they don't diagnose it as a spiritual problem. They diagnose it according to the DSM. And the method that they don't walk through, for example, I just mentioned Matthew 12. You go up a few verses, a tree is known by its fruit, right? They're not using a fruit root explanation of the heart and why is anger coming out of you, sir, because anger was inside of you. ⁓ Why was depression coming out? Because depression was inside. No, no, no. That's their understanding of the root problem is completely different than a a Matthew 12 kind of instance there. And so I think it becomes painfully obvious when you look at how they say the problem should be classified and the treatment therapies that are presented that that really no Bible is found. And then maybe one last point on that. When you read through those five views, what you will find. If you just look for how many Bible verses were used in the solution section, there's none. There was really none. When you look through a case report from a biblical counselor, verses are everywhere, all over the wall. And with them, it's I can do all things through Christ. I think was one of the verses that was highlighted there. So so my point is the proof is going to be so easy in the pudding that this concept of giving God actual place. Is really not present.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's good to point out. I even have my students here at Midwestern Seminary read Integrationists. I I want them not to just believe what I say about their framing and the remedies that they offer. I I want them to be able to discern with distinction the differences and the the wrong framing and definition of a problem leads to the wrong type of solution. That's that's different than what the Bible offers for true restoration as we target the heart. ⁓ Dr. Grounder, honestly, this has been really, really helpful clarifying, pointing out some of these inconsistencies and contradictions, as you mentioned. And I think these are the implications. If we can start to understand these a little bit clearer, I think it'll be helpful for us because I don't believe any conservative Christian really wants to undermine what they hold true and dear theologically. But we have to be cautious and careful by the things we practice. We're either proclaiming that creed, that theological disposition, or we're undermining it in some way. And we just have to be cautious. And I think you've helped us with clarity today. So thanks for your your contribution here.

speaker-1: Hey, it's been great to be on here. Thanks for having me.

speaker-0: You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of A C B C. You know, I want to encourage you if you've been on the fence about becoming a certified training center. I want to encourage you to push through that process. If your church or your institution becomes a training center of ACBC, people can then receive training from you that will go towards certification with A C B C. This could be a great resource for your church and your community as you build an intentional commitment to care for your congregation and also. For the institution to seek education in the care of intensive discipleship. You know, even if you don't think that your church will be able to complete the training center certification process, we have several resources on our website that could be helpful if you're curious to learn how to build a counseling ministry at your church. So if you'd like to find out more information about this, please feel free to send an email to info at biblicalcounseling.com and we'll provide you with some helpful links in the show notes as well. As always, if you want to find out more about ACBC, our certification process individually or institutionally as a training center, please visit our website, biblicalcounseling.com.