Dale Johnson: biblical decision-making on this edition of Truth in Love. I'm Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Dr. Stuart Scott. He and his wife Zondra currently reside in Greenville, South Carolina. They've been married for 45 years. They have two grown children and two grandchildren. He has 50 years of experience in counseling, education, and pastoral ministry. He's also a fellow and director of member care. You're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of ACBC. Now want to remind you that we are traveling this month here at ACBC, and we will be at the SBC in Orlando, Florida. And then in a couple of weeks, we will be at the PCA in Louisville, Kentucky. So if you are in either of those places, we would love to see you. And we will have a booth there exhibiting and telling people about our resources and what we do here at ACBC. And as always, we love to meet you in person. So please come by our booth if you are attending. and concerned with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Dr. Scott is the author of The Exemplary Husband, Biblical Manhood, Leadership, and Decision-Making. He has co-authored The Faithful Parent, A Biblical Guide for Parenting with Martha Pease, Counseling the Hard Cases with Heath Lambert, and Killing Sinful Habits, Conquering Sin with Radical Faith. I'm so grateful for Stuart and his life and influence here at ACBC, and I'm looking forward to our topic today. Stuart, welcome to the podcast. either of those conventions. If you can't make it to either of those events, you can always find out more about us and the resources that we offer at biblicalcounseling.com. Stuart Scott: ⁓ thank you, Dale. It's a joy to be here with you and always is. So thank you. Dale Johnson: Yeah, this is fun. So, as we think about biblical decision-making, or ⁓ we should just say decision-making first, this is a hard thing for people. And there are certain life moments that we run up against ⁓ that you know, heavy ⁓ in ways that we make decisions. ⁓ And interesting how, you know, how we make decisions. I think of all the phrases that we use that talk ways that we make ⁓ decisions or we wind up in certain places, the ways that we explain you know, that somebody drew the short straw or, you know, all kinds of different phrases that we use to explain how we came to where we are. But I want to back up first before we get into the processes, which I love hearing you talk about in biblical decision making, which can be so confusing and really provide a paralysis of analysis where people get stuck. But before we get into that, what I want to do is give you an opportunity Stuart Scott: Mm-hmm. Dale Johnson: to describe kind of how you became interested in this topic and what sparked your interest to kind of dive a little bit deeper to think about this biblical decision making and then how to help others with it as well. Stuart Scott: Yeah, well thank you and I'll try to be very brief on this. When God graced me with salvation when I was 18 at a boarding school, a Christian boarding school, I committed my life to Jesus Christ, wanted to follow him, ⁓ he wanted for me, but how was he going to communicate what he wanted for my life? And became, ⁓ at on the campus where I was at, highly mystical. very subjective. would say, some of the teachers would say, just be quiet, God will whisper. You'll just know. He'll let you know. You know, all these guys, I don't know how to figure that out. I was under the impression that there was one perfect plan for my life. And I'd better not miss it because it just is a domino effect. You you marry the wrong person and then you just took the perfect person for someone else. was, ⁓ talk about the paralysis of analysis. I was extremely, extremely ⁓ confused just to make a decision in fear of I miss God's perfect will for my life. Dale Johnson: Yeah. Stuart Scott: that on even through my college days. Very difficult to make decisions. And then obviously meeting Zondra and going, no, is this really who God wants? Because don't want mess it up for her or anyone else. And so when it came for further studies in biblical counseling, I wanted to. Dale Johnson: Mm. Stuart Scott: delve into this area of decision making because it wasn't just me. The other guys I would meet with are a disciple and we would work together. They were also struggling with the same kind of issues. And so I picked this topic as my project and my doctoral program to read what's out there and then Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: It's not to be so complicated. God cares for us. He wants us to know what He has will for us. And that's what kind of led me to choosing this topic and pursuing it. It's been so helpful for me and for others. Dale Johnson: You know, even that last point that you made about God's care, it is so interesting, Stuart, I think, when we have such a tender conscience and we really want to do what God wants us to do. ⁓ almost as if we forget, like, God's caring and kind. And it's not like He's waiting to say, ⁓ you you took the leftward path, so like, your is destroyed now. so, ⁓ it's to remember the kindness of the Lord and the care of the Lord. Stuart Scott: You know, yeah. Yeah. Dale Johnson: for us, especially as we think about decision making. And honestly, you read the narratives of Scripture and how patient the Lord is with people, and He's still accomplishing His purposes. And I take great comfort in that. You know, to one of your points, there is so much confusion. You talked about that even in personal testimony. I see that a lot in young people. I see it a lot even in people my age. And there's a lot of confusion in, you know, what should I do here or there? How do I make certain decisions? Stuart Scott: Mm-hmm. Dale Johnson: Because there are significant decisions that we have to make in life. You referred to decision about ⁓ Zondra. And, mean, there significant, you know, decisions that we face. ⁓ So, why do think there's so much confusion on a topic like this, on how we pursue God's will? ⁓ How do we know will? How do we make decisions, especially when we have this conscience that wants to please the Lord? Stuart Scott: Mm-hmm. just think there's a variety of voices out there ⁓ and some very key godly men women who are teaching on ⁓ knowing God's and doing God's will that isn't rooted, ⁓ in my isn't really rooted well in scripture. They've heard what they've heard and they pass it on. Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: or they've come up with it on their own or they're misusing scripture. They're not interpreting it well within the context. think what's in narrative is normative for today. you just, boy, it gets all confusing. in the Old Testament, Elijah, you know, the... the still small voice and to Samuel and they think that goes on today and just the confusion I think is from well-meaning teachers and even in literature and ⁓ just leads you down a path of the confusion that you're mentioning. Dale Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking mentioned the still small voice, I think ⁓ ⁓ know, ⁓ a fleece ⁓ think of, you know, casting lots, you know, those sorts of things. ⁓ been referencing significant decisions, of course, which do make. But we also make daily decisions, ⁓ lots of every single day that we might the minutiae of our life, ⁓ but they're still significant in you know, how we think, how we respond, how we feel even. What do you think are some of the more popular means that God's people ⁓ to respond or make decisions even ⁓ a daily basis? Stuart Scott: Well, I, listed them because I, there are so many of them that ⁓ don't use or be very cautious of and how you, rely them. Obviously misusing the Bible that ⁓ happens lot, ⁓ verses out of context, personal advice, godly people can advise you wrongly. A circumstances is a big one. They're, they're going with the flow. ⁓ rather than God uses his providence, but not for decision making, but to bring you up to a place you have to make a biblically informed decision. Setting up conditions, you mentioned the fleeces. Open closed doors, that's a popular one. I'm praying for an open door. ⁓ Jay's classic answer to that is open doors can lead to elevator shafts. ⁓ You have probably the most popular one today. It's the least mentioned in scripture and that's inner feelings, go with your desires. Even desires have to be checked out. It may not be you. It may not be the time, but the subjective ideas, inner feelings, desires and impressions probably is the most relied on method. And it's the least mentioned in the Bible. led by the spirit. Some people think they hear an audible voice. They're listening in their prayers rather than speaking in their prayers. Inner peace, that's another one. I have peace about it. Devices. I mean, looking for signs. Isolation. They just, their own decision. They came up with it. Dreams are becoming a more popular one. Kind of back to the... Middle ages, on visions and dreams. Waiting on the Lord is another popular one. The Lord's just going to make it happen. ⁓ Relying on their own reasoning, the pros and cons, ⁓ know, those are, those some of the major ones that people will, they rest on. I mean, I was resting on them. I'm familiar with them. Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, think, I mean, they're popular for a reason, right? And we do see these, you know, sprinkled throughout our Christian church culture. But I would say there are some dangers. And even as you're talking, I'm thinking through a couple of things ⁓ that to concern me, because what we're relating here, and I don't know that people think thoroughly through ⁓ these when they're using these phrases. So, I'm not indicting someone necessarily here, but But the implication, however, is we're waiting on some new revelation from ⁓ And I think that's a little bit dangerous in what anticipating or waiting on. It does say something about the Scriptures unknowingly, because the warns about adding to or taking away from the revelation that God has given us. But in a sense, I don't think anybody, ⁓ or not people, would overtly say, well, we're going to add to something that the the Lord has said in His Word. But incidentally, that's certainly happening and I think that's one of the dangers. Talk about maybe that danger or some of the other dangers of these sort of popular phrases or concepts and being guided really in this way, thinking it's from the Lord. Stuart Scott: Yeah. And you're talking about presuppositions, you know, what they're basing God has not given us enough for our daily decisions. And even the most weighty ones, in fact he has, ⁓ always enough light in the scripture for decisions we make, whether they're minor or major. And you ⁓ a ⁓ a belief that Dale Johnson: you Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: The Bible is not where I go to for commands and principles and that's it. That's all I need And of course the data of whatever decision you have to make you have to in the data itself, but the commands and principles are enough and some of the principles are you know, even Going other godly saints, you know and asking their input from the scripture they might know that would be helpful ⁓ and Soon you think it's lacking Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: as you mentioned that the sufficiency of scripture then you'll be looking for other means and then they will become more important than scripture itself Dale Johnson: is that denial, ⁓ effective of sufficiency, you're to something else as an authority. And ⁓ don't think people realize that sort breach that starts to happen is now we're looking at something else to have authority over our lives in a particular area that is consequential, ⁓ especially as we're for God's will. You know, as I think about some of those dangers, I'm glad that you've brought that up, but you mentioned the sufficiency of God's Word. So, how would you describe ⁓ way God has given us or what He's given us in His sufficient Word? Because some people would say, man, I'm not making that connection. The Lord has not clearly established, you know, who I should marry or where I should go or where I should live or what job I should take. You know, so ⁓ how you describe... what God has given us in His sufficient Word, really that helps us to glorify Him and know that we're pursuing things that are pleasing to the Lord and that are God's will. Stuart Scott: Yeah. And the passage I like to go to because it's so key an era at the time that they were bringing in all this extra knowledge was at the church at Colossae. And they were using words like Christ and knowledge and light and darkness and mystery and visions, but all these kinds of words, but meant something different. And so Paul's prayer that he's praying for them. Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: is that they would be filled with the knowledge of His will and all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And the goal is to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him. And then it talks about what your life looks like when it is. But if you want to, that's the goal. I want to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. That should be everyone's, every Christian's goal. And then how do we do that is to be under the dominating control of God's revealed will. So all I really need to do is sure are there any clear commands about whatever decision I'm making, you know, ⁓ forbidding or commanding to do something, which oftentimes ⁓ there's and a lot of the decisions were made. There's not a clear command. Then we go to principles. These are more of a compass. There's freedom in the principles, but it gives you a direction, a wisdom, stewardship, ⁓ the counsel of getting the body of Christ and some godly people to speak into your life. There would be a clear command for not marrying an unbeliever if you're a believer. But after that, you're going, okay, the principle of growing in Christ, is she growing? Is he growing in Christ? he plugged into a church? These are all like principles from mainly epistles, but you can find principles even in the Old Testament. but not narrative, not trying not to go into narrative, but more in the teaching portions of scripture, which would be for God's people. So that's how I would encourage people, what principles would come in. And we've just had to make a huge major decision and we've had to do just that. Two really good options, we've got to, what are the principles and trying to think through those and then making a decision. Dale Johnson: that's good. And I think that that's helpful. And think sometimes we don't ⁓ ⁓ freedom to able to make those decisions. ⁓ Again, someone who has a tender conscience, you're consistently saying, okay, Lord, we don't want to mess up here, we don't want to mess up here. When in reality, it is about pursuing those things which we see that are pleasing to God. And when He's not provided in His revealed will limitations on something, there is a sense of freedom. that we can pursue things that are good and godly and healthy. And I think that's really, really helpful, Stuart. And as you mentioned, I you guys ⁓ just walking through that on major life decisions as well. Yeah. Stuart Scott: Well, and Dale, could I mention that we ⁓ started with God's care and His love for us and He wants to communicate His will to us, which He has in His word, the Proverb 16:9 says when we plan our way, God will - His decreed sovereign plan, if this in some way is not pleasing to Him, Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stuart Scott: and that's what we want, and we're trying to follow his revealed will - He'll redirect our steps. And that's what it says there. He'll establish, he'll turn it and he'll use providence and various circumstances that just shift our steps. That's because he cares so much. And I think we that. He's orchestrating his divine plan and there's freedom, but he'll redirect us if it's not the most pleasing to him. Yeah, and I think that we miss that sometimes, the trust we ⁓ need to have in him. Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think that's good and really helpful. I want you to give a couple of things either that have been helpful to you or that you've maybe ⁓ that you've written or that others have written that think articulate some of these things, good resources that are helpful for people ⁓ to really with decision making and how to build this as a normal part of maturing in Christ and how we walk freely according to these principles. Stuart Scott: Hmm. Dale Johnson: Give us some good resources here Stuart. Stuart Scott: Well, I wanted to include some in for a husband. So there's some in book on exemplary husband, but there was much more to include. So I pulled it into the book on biblical manhood, just trying to help men. They have to make decisions. ⁓ ⁓ wasn't far off when I asked Zondra, will you follow me? And she said, when you start moving. Dale Johnson: Mm. Mm. Stuart Scott: I thought, I need to start making some decisions. So biblical manhood, there's a whole section in there from the stuff that I researched and wrote, but other books that are very helpful, ⁓ Do something". You know, by Kevin de Young, very, very simple, basic of decision-making. Dr. MacArthur a book booklet called "Found: God's Will". It's good to a point, but he sort of stops with the commands and he doesn't really deal much with principles. And I think the principles are the guiding light that can kind of help us our direction. Dale Johnson: think that's great. And honestly, for us as biblical counselors, these things are applicable to us as people who are moral agents and making decisions consistently, but it's also very applicable to us as we're helping so many sitting in front of us make significant decisions in life ⁓ at crossroads. And so, I think these are applicable personally, but also as we see the ⁓ beauty these principles play out in our own life. should give us encouragement with the decisions we're helping people to make the counseling room ⁓ we encourage them to walk in the freedom that Christ has given and to, know, assess their hearts according to Scripture, according to the commands, according to the principles, and then begin to move forward with things that are pleasing and ⁓ things you can pursue. So, really helpful Stuart. Thanks for your time today and encouraging our hearts here. Stuart Scott: Absolutely. Yep, thank you.