Dale Johnson: Counseling Procrastinators on this edition of Truth and Love. I'm Dale Johnson and you're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Dr. Jim Newheiser. He's the director of the Christian Counseling Program and Professor of Christian Counseling and Pastoral Theology at RTS Charlotte. You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC. I want to remind all of you of our amazing resource that we've put together for high school students and their parents. Our Foundations of Biblical Counseling curriculum is a one-year curriculum that meets the requirements for high school credits and engages subjects in our fundamentals training as well as specific case studies where your students can learn to engage relevant issues with biblical wisdom and discernment. For twenty-five years, Dr. Newheiser served as the preaching pastor at Grace Bible Church in Escondido, California. He's a director of the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, and he serves as a board member at both the Biblical Counseling Coalition and the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Jim has been married to his wife, Caroline, since nineteen seventy nine, and they have three adult children. As always, Dr. Newheiser, good to be with you today. Thanks for joining us. This curriculum is directed toward high school students and is available for individuals or groups in a physical or digital format. So if you're looking for a curriculum for the next academic year specifically designed to teach your students how to grow in their knowledge of God's word and apply it to their lives, then we believe this would be a resource that would be a blessing to you and your students. We'll link this in the show notes and you can find more information about our foundation's curriculum at our website, biblicalcounseling.com.

Jim Newheiser: Sure, thanks for having me.

Dale Johnson: Now, as ⁓ as we think about this topic, I have to be honest with you, Dr. Newheiser, procrastinator. this is one where I might have to repent afterwards if I'm honest. this is sometimes a little bit of a struggle. And you know, I I my to get things done in a timely manner, but a lot going on and ⁓ sometimes th this is a struggle. So I'm interested to see where we're gonna go with this today. ⁓ And you know, trying not to avoid the things that that I might be weak in. And so looking forward to ⁓ how we're gonna unpack this. Talk for a second, maybe about the concept of procrastination and why it is that that people may tend to procrastinate.

Jim Newheiser: I think people have different reasons. Just as the scripture of Proverbs 3.27 says, do not withhold good from those to whom it is due when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, go and come back and tomorrow I will give it. And I've got other passages as well we can bring up as we go. I think there many people, even some very close to me, who would say that it's just a personality trait that they tend to put things off. I think... ⁓ Sometimes people are just lazy that's a problem in Proverbs 24, know, in 6 talk about the sluggard and it's really treated as a major moral failure. think a lot times people who are procrastinating, not that they're doing nothing, it's just that they're doing what they want to do instead of the thing they should do. And some of that can also go along with kind of perfectionism, like we like to do what we're good at.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim Newheiser: So in my case, been doing a lot of speaking lately, which I feel comfortable with. I'm supposed to be writing a big book. I find that much more difficult and unpleasant. And so I guess I have to speak to myself as well in terms of the struggles we have is that it's, you the question would be what would God have me to do? Not what am I comfortable doing?

Dale Johnson: Well, I wish you hadn't said that last part, because that is exactly some of the stuff that I would say that I I'm wrestling with as well. But it's true. And I appreciate you pointing it out because sometimes the truth ⁓ is exactly what we need and and it unveils some of the wrestlings of our own heart. and it's something we need to be aware of. As you mentioned, there there are different expressions or maybe correlating issues that that accompany the concept of procrastination. Some can be for ⁓ good reasons that we give, right? I'm better at something. I want to do something that I feel more comfortable with. but it can also be a way where we're we're hiding things that that ⁓ that God would have us to do. ⁓ I think that's super helpful to think about. We should always count the cost in these types of things though. And so when we think about consequences, maybe because in your example we see good things happening or maybe we're pursuing something good or something we would prefer to do. We don't really think about the consequences that come along with procrastination. So talk about some of the consequences that arise when we as the people of God ⁓ procrastinate.

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, well, you and I are both professors in a seminary. so there was ever a company of procrastinators, it would be students. And watch them when they've put off the paper, they haven't for an exam. You get these desperate emails saying that I need more And obviously that can, had students go on academic probation or even not be able to continue in school because

Dale Johnson: Mm.

Jim Newheiser: they were not disciplined in the use of their time. I see it causing conflict in marriage where the wife asks the husband, could you please fix the toilet or the grass or whatever it is. And wife isn't just saying this item to be accomplished. It's also kind of the subtitles would be, if you love me. ⁓ you would do this and especially if you said you would do it, you would do it soon, not just someday. I had one councilee who told me that he had been told to take the cat to the vet for a certain procedure and he procrastinated and now he has six kittens. So there can be disastrous consequences.

Dale Johnson: So they can come in all in in all kinds of ways. that one's a little bit more comical. but it definitely proves the point. And when we think about the concept of procrastination, sometimes, as you mentioned, peop people use excuses all the time. like this is just a part of my my personality. I do other things well or whatever. And and so we excuse it by by means like that. and I think when we when we utilize like that, we just sort of settle with You know, I don't I'm not sure if I can change this. I'm not sure if I can do something different. ⁓ talk about the the hope of procrastinators actually changing. how can they actually change?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I'm to go back to what you began with in terms of people can use excuses. And I actually found an article from a secular psychology website saying, quote, procrastination isn't a failure of morals, reason, or self-confidence at all. It's actually a healthy response to unhealthy conditions. It is a trauma response. So here's one more place where trauma is used to explain things. I think we really, again, it needs to be a heart issue. It needs to be a God-focused thing in terms of, I'm not my own. I belong to the Lord, 1 Corinthians 6, and even in relation to others, Psalm 15 verse 4 says, the righteous man swears to his own herd and still keeps his word. And so I think for some of us, there needs to be repentance rather than making excuses. I because our hearts are deceitful, we can... justify not keeping commitments to others. but ⁓ before the Lord, it's stewardship of our time. And so if God has given you the capacity and the opportunity to do certain things and you've wasted too much time on social media or other unimportant things, there's a sin before the Lord because you have used the the ability that you had for the glory of God. Interestingly, when I was doing a little bit of research on this of all people, Jonathan Edwards has a lengthy sermon entitled Procrastination from the 1700s. And he says, those who delay doing good works flatter themselves that they shall see another day and then another and trust to that until finally most of them are swallowed up in hell to lament their folly to all eternity in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone. That was talking about procrastinating, about turning to the Lord, but he also broadens that to other forms of procrastination. if you want to experience some real deep conviction about your procrastination, Google Jonathan Edwards procrastination and that will set you straight.

Dale Johnson: that that's really that's helpful. I and I keep saying they in terms of procrastination. I should probably say we and just own some of that. ⁓ And as think you know, some of the the corresponding sins, we we we see things you know, for procrastinators, for example, manifest in certain ways. we see sins or we see preferences. You mentioned the concept of laziness or perfectionism, all those kinds of things. that we see with people who who struggle with you know sins of procrastination. talk about those who are non procrastinators. Certainly there are corresponding sins with as well, manifest in lots of different ways. What are the what are some of the things that you you see there?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah. think that there can be situations where like in a marriage, one may put things off, but the other spouse can become harsh and judgmental. And like I would fall into the category probably of an anti-procrastinator to a large degree, but then there can be pride or impatience with other people's struggles. And sometimes it can be becoming a workaholic. neglecting other important issues with which we other priorities. so being very task-oriented, not enough people-oriented, so everybody his own struggle.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. and I think that's helpful because a of times the the consequences that you talked about earlier often come out in ⁓ in relationships and when see a procrastinator involved in some form maybe of a vulnerable relationship with with somebody who's not, ⁓ you see those those sins clashing in ways, the manifestation of those sins clashing. And I I think that was actually really insightful and very helpful, particularly as it relates to to marriage, but but other relationships. as well. Th the big question though as we think about counseling is how how do we help procrastinators? You've mentioned a couple of things, but just talk about ways that we can help procrastinators move forward.

Jim Newheiser: Yo. Yeah, and I actually had three P's and that is prioritize, and protect. Prioritize is really on what you know of scripture and God's calling on your life to set God-given I also address some of this in my Boundaries book that when we become distracted by something less important, that is a failure to be a good steward. And so I think to just consciously... ⁓ make in which this is the next part is planned Proverbs 21 5 the plans of the diligent lead advantage the one who is hasty comes to poverty rather than just spontaneously dealing with life as it comes and following your feelings your time is a resource like your money and so you set priorities biblically and then you plan your time to fulfill those priorities you may also find you've made too many commitments and you need to do less that fits in with the time God has given you and then you need to protect your time Psalm 90 says, teach us to number our days, establish the works of our hands, that we need to be very careful of protecting our time from things that may be good but not best as we accomplish the things we've committed to do and as we seek to honor the Lord with the opportunities the stewardship he's given us.

Dale Johnson: You know, Jim, that honestly that those three things I think are very, very helpful. I I want to ask maybe a follow up to those 'cause 'cause I I I think just being, you know, personal here, and maybe a bit transparent and I think it I think it's helpful in some ways as you think through those three Ps and as individual to pursue, you know, honoring the Lord with your planning and your preparation and your protection. And and sometimes we see competing good things. Right. We we see good things and and i if I have, you know, a weakness here, it's a lot of times saying yes to lots of good things and maybe sometimes not the best things. there there's a there's a sense of guilt sometimes when you say yes to good things and not great things. But then there's also a sense of guilt sometimes you when you try to protect that time, it feels selfish where I'm trying to do the best stuff and I'm saying no to good things. You can feel and sense that dilemma. Give give me some give me some practical help as we think through those three Ps. And and somebody who's wanting to honor the Lord is wrestling with maybe good versus ⁓

Jim Newheiser: Yeah. So I need counsel on this as well. I think probably both of us find ourselves when have relationships with people, it's hard to say no. ⁓ ⁓ I've seen pastors, ⁓ leaders who have really had major marriage problems because they weren't saying no some people. Therefore, when you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to other things. I think when the Proverbs talk about seeking counsel, ⁓ and the wise have an abundance of counselors. my own situation, I'm considering like having my wife and a couple of friends help me to evaluate when people make It's very hard to say no to someone who asks you to do something when they're very dear to you. And so that's my case, but I don't think you have to be, you know, invited speak places to have. You can still be talking things over with your wife, with your close friends in terms of, you think the way I'm spending my time correct according to the priorities ⁓ has given me? And when facing particular decisions to seek advice, especially from your spouse, because they're most affected, but it can also be from church leaders or friends. just fact that you're thinking about it and wrestling with it probably means you're on the road to recovery. as opposed to just getting pulled in every which direction without ever thinking about what you're doing other than the next thing.

Dale Johnson: Mm-hmm. You know, that's so helpful. I I'm reminded today of ⁓ Thomas Brooks when he said we must love truth, both shining and scorching. And today, for me it was kind of one of those scorching truths. But honestly, it it's so good to be reminded of ⁓ the truth of God's word in whatever way it impacts us and to respond appropriately to the Lord. ⁓ And, you ⁓ that's the Lord's encouragement for us to rightly align our lives, and I take that as being something good. And helpful and as as I know our our listeners will as well. Jim, thank you for leading us in this discussion. about sometimes a respectable sin, if you will, that we often move forward with. So thanks for leading us in this, reminding us of the scriptures encouragement in the minutiae and the details of our life. Very helpful, ⁓ brother. Thank you.

Jim Newheiser: Thank you for having me.