speaker-0: No, no. Welcome to Teen Chemistry. I'm Mike Morand. This is the podcast where we unpack what actually makes teams work, drawing on organizational psychology, organizational behavior, and complexity science. Today's episode is about followership, the underexplored half of the leader follower dynamic. Every team has two halves. One half sets direction, calls the play, and takes responsibility for the outcome. The other half decides whether to back the play, push back on it, fix what's broken, or fill in what's missing. Both halves are doing work. Both halves require skill. We've spent decades developing the first half, and the second half is what this episode is all about. SHRM's twenty twenty six CHRO priorities and perspectives report named leader and manager development the top CHRO priority for the second year in a row. This episode is about what makes the other half of that equation work. My guest today is Joti Chopra. Joti is Executive Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer at Hertz, where she is responsible for the experience and well-being of more than 25,000 team members across over 11,000 customer-facing locations in the transportation and mobility sector. She is the strategic architect of Hertz's cultural and operational renewal through talent management. Before Hertz, Joti was Chief People Officer and Head of Corporate Responsibility at MGM Resorts International for nearly six years. Earlier in her career, she held senior roles at Pearson, was a global managing director at Bank of New York, Deloitte, and Merrill Lynch. She is a member of the SHRM CHRO Executive Council and serves on the board of Schneider National. Joti, welcome to Catine Chemistry.

speaker-1: It's great to be here with you, Mike.

speaker-0: So let's start with where followership shows up most visibly. At Hertz, you have tremendous responsibility for colleagues and employees across over 10,000 locations. And the work happens in front of customers every day. The script I imagine breaks pretty frequently and there is no closed door to get the story straight behind. So I want to put you in the field for a moment. So when you walk to a counter or a service line and watch a team member handle a real customer moment. What tells you whether the followership in that team is strong? What are you really looking for?

speaker-1: It's a really timely question, Mike, because I just returned from what we call an on-the-road visit to ⁓ two locations for Hertz, San Diego and Los Angeles, where I actually had the opportunity to see followership in action. And so both of those locations are airport locations and where Hertz has fairly sizable operations where we get ready for customers that have booked. or reserved or looking for a car rental. And they can also drop off and deliver their cars at both locations. And I had the opportunity to visit the operations in action at the airport. And as I think about the concept of followership in this context, it's really about our frontline workforce who are doing everything they can to get ready and to deliver a full-cycle experience. So If you think about customer service agents who are at the counters when you go into a Hertz airport location to pick up your vehicle, if you think about vehicle service attendants who are doing everything they can to get the vehicles turned around. And our customers come to these locations for business purposes. They might be business travelers working for companies that are on a business trip. They could be ⁓ leisure travelers, so families out on a vacation or looking to have a holiday. And ⁓ followership ⁓ in this context is about, you know, how well do our team members follow the protocols, the processes, the policies, the what we call SOPs that are in place, and how well do the managers support them and check in on them. We do team huddles on a daily basis at locations like this. And that's an important part of setting the schedule for the day, looking at the orders that have come in, the inventory, the customer expectation, the pickup, the deliveries, the transportation of cars from one location to another. And so followership is a really key tenant and a principle that we've got to put into practice And make sure that our team members are following the processes. Another good example is in the area of safety. We have a lot of safety protocols in place to protect our employees at Hertz and also our customers, making sure that people don't slip and fall or trip. They're wearing the right shoes. They've got uniforms, for example, and making sure that they're adhering to all of the things that we've put into place to protect them and take care of them so that they can take care of our customers. And our view and philosophy is very simple. If we take care of our people and our employees and they're following all the right procedures and protocols, they will be able to take better care of our customers and that in turn will translate into better NPS scores. And so ⁓ you know, that's ⁓ Couple of examples there of followership.

speaker-0: You so much. And thank you for painting that picture. I think it's incredible to think about all the moving parts at a Hertz location that are required to deliver a great and, as you said, safe customer experience. And I think that really highlights sort of how much pressure there is, you know, at all times at these locations to deliver on this. And it made me think of this paper from Eduardo Salas from his colleagues at Rice, and they call it the big five of teamwork. You know, there are five behaviors they say that show up when teams perform under pressure. One is mutual monitoring. backing each other up, adapting in real time, team orientation and leadership. And you know, I think what you're describing at the counter of a Hertz location sounds a lot like watching those behaviors play out in real time.

speaker-1: I would agree very much so. I mean if I think about, for example, adapting in real time, ⁓ that's so relevant to our business at Hertz. We have to operate on a real time basis, ⁓ meet customer demands and often ship and transport vehicles from one location to another to meet the demands that are coming in. You can have unforeseen circumstances in a business like ours at Hertz. weather, for example, a flight might get delayed and so our customer service agents will track the flights and monitor them and wait until the plane has landed and the customer's been able to pick up the car. And often that means staying until the early hours of the morning. ⁓ and so we do that in order to take care of our customers. And so those are key components, ⁓ critical principles that I think followed. I reflect a lot o on teamwork. ⁓ you know, operating as one team is a core value and tenant at Hertz and ⁓ there's nothing like seeing it in action at every location where our team members come together and we're operating as one team and delivering the best that we can for our customers.

speaker-0: If we can now zoom out a bit from the front line and thinking a little bit more about our leadership development programs, you know, this field is enormous. There's a lot of different programs. There are succession plans, there's executive education, there's board reviews. Though there doesn't seem to be nearly as much focus on followership, why do you think followership is not really on the radar? ⁓ nearly as much as leadership focus when CHROs talk seriously about team performance.

speaker-1: So my observations are that large scale organizations, enterprises, companies typically will focus on number one, new higher orientation and new higher training. To successfully onboard new recruits that are coming into the company, making sure they're set up for success, providing them with all the tools and training they need to do their job effectively. Secondly, there may be specific departmental training that's required to help people do their jobs. If you're a maintenance technician, for example, we have a maintenance academy. There's certain things that we need ⁓ our maintenance crews to know and do and to follow. So you'll have some s areas of specialization. And then and then there's often a large gap. And the mushin middle, as we call them, the middle layer of management, you don't often see a lot of training and development invested there. So if I think about workforce population segments like new to manager, your first line people leader, supervisor, those that have been in management perhaps for a while and are looking for a next level position. And and then organizations will go into leadership advancement programs or development programs and then executive development. So the critical piece that I think is the bedrock in many ways of learning and development should be focused on that middle layer of management.

speaker-0: You know, I think as as you look at kind of across that landscape and think about, you know, how much emphasis there is on the leadership curriculums, the what do you need to learn and know to effectively set direction, to provide resources, to ensure accountability, with all that emphasis on leadership, that that's where I'm wondering, you know. Where is the corresponding kind of side of followership? Like what that means to be a good teammate, a good member of the team on the other side of that equation.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think I I think it's a really interesting question. So I think, you know, from a systems perspective, ⁓ so from an organizational ⁓ viewpoint, you need to have clear career paths, mobility tracks for people to follow. If I come in as a customer service agent, what's my next job? What's the path that I'm going on? How do I become a manager of a Hertz Local Edition, for example? Or become an airport manager, right? What's my track? What's my path for me to follow? ⁓ who are the role models that I can look to and see what their journeys have been and what were the paths that they went down that I might follow? So the concept and notion of followership, I think, is inextricably linked to career paths. People also have to see role models in positions that they aspire to. And everyone's journey is unique. But I think organizations can construct clear paths, job descriptions, and show people the pathways that they can take in order to reach the positions that they're aspiring to. I think the second is that in individuals can seek information and ask for information and share information with other teammates. So if you've taken a course or been part of a program and you derived a lot of value. sharing that with your teammates or your colleagues and letting them know, hey, did you know that Hertz has this program? And, you know, you can, you know, go and do these courses can be another way of getting to sort of sharing the knowledge, if you will. I also think it's important for people that have benefited from learning and development to pay it forward and to share what they've learned. So it's not about, you know, going through a training program and coming out at the other end and off I go. But, you know, maybe doing a lunch and learn, maybe sharing what were the three best aspects of the the leadership development program or the course that you just took. What did you learn from it? ⁓ what are you gonna do now that you've taken this course? ⁓ what's your your journey gonna be going forward? And how can other team members learn from it? And I don't think we often do enough of that, which is the sharing. And that can also ascribe to followership. Like you've taken a an amazing course and program, come back and tell your teammates about it, and maybe, you know, the next batch, a few of them could sign up for it or get nominated for it. And so I think that's another opportunity where both organizations and individuals can take the ownership in and around followership, ⁓ building meaningful careers.

speaker-0: Love that. I love that. Thank you. So in the last kind of big section here, you know, and kind of closing on the panoramic view. So your current seat at HERT sits in the arc of a career that has included financial services, professional services, education, hospitality. I imagine that gives you a particular vantage point on what is actually universal about how teams work and what is specific to a context but easy to mistake as universal. And as you look at the Hertz workforce today, what do you see about followership that you wouldn't have predicted from your earlier experiences? You know, where do the patterns you brought with you fit and where do they not?

speaker-1: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. You know, as I as I think about followership, having strong role models is something that stands out. ⁓ if I go back early in my career, you know, I joined Wall Street in nineteen ninety-eight. ⁓ there were very few women in senior positions at that time, and I was in retail wealth management at Merrill Lynch. And so, you know I have sort of strong memories of ⁓ wishing there were more women at the top at that time that ⁓ you know, one could see their journeys and learn from their journeys and follow in their footsteps. And so so I think role models but linked to that is also this notion of mentorship and sponsorship, which is a really important part of individual development and ultimately success, certainly in in ⁓ large organizations and other types of Constructs. And there's a lot of research that shows the correlation between pipeline progression and advancement in organizations and the role that mentorship and sponsorship plays in that. And it's something that can happen organically, but I think any individual that's early in the arc of their career and building their career and looking to grow and that has ambition. ought to invest in identifying mentors early on, cultivating those relationships, harnessing and nurturing them, and sustaining them throughout their entire career. ⁓ and secondly, finding a sponsor. Sponsors often choose you. It's not the other way around where you say, Hey, will you sponsor me? But They see something in you, they advocate for you when you're not in the room. They really get to know you at a deep level and they're willing to put their reputation on the line to promote or advocate for advancement and promotion. And so being cognizant and respectful of that and seeking that out and again nurturing those relationships are really key. And so I think I think those are really foundational elements. And I think reinforcing that to individuals who are serious about their career, want to grow in their career and build a meaningful career is is helpful. A couple of other areas I'd like to touch on that I think often don't get talked about. One is the notion of holding people accountable. And so as you begin advancement into management ranks and you become a people leader or people supervisor, holding people accountable, right? Whether it's for the policies, the practices, the requirements, the goals, ⁓ But being a good role model and holding your team members accountable is really incumbent on a people leader. I think the second thing that's really key is giving people feedback on a real-time basis. So don't wait for the mid-year check-in or the mid-year performance review and the year-end rating to know how you're doing. If you're not getting feedback, seek it out. Book time with your manager and Ask for feedback. How am I doing? Where can I improve? How can I add more value? How do I get to that next level position? What are the three things you'd like to see me take on in the next six weeks? You know? These are the kinds of questions for people to ask. And I think from a manager perspective, giving feedback on a real time basis is absolutely invaluable. So that people grow on a real time basis. They learn from the wins as well as from the mistakes or the errors that they may have made. And they grow from it. And those provide invaluable learning opportunities. And I think, you know, that's something that often isn't talked about enough. And I think is really key to building both the leadership pipeline, which then translates into followership and growing the next generation of future leaders.

speaker-0: That you you shared that I hadn't never really thought about is this idea of thinking about followership in the context of seeking people to follow, you know, seeking role models, ⁓ seeking people to intentionally follow the example of. So I I have one last question, and this is a question I ask everyone. And I would ask Joti if you could tell me about a time, you know, a team experience. that changed how you think about teams. You know, not a polished case study, you know, but a moment that landed differently than you expected and where it shifted something, you know, you've carried since then. You know, is there is there a time or an example that comes to mind?

speaker-1: There's several let me just let me just think for a minute on on which would be a really good example.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I ⁓ yeah, I I I would say so a really good example of when I look back in my career, of ⁓ a defining moment that links to the topic of followership was ⁓ back in twenty twenty when I was the chief people officer at MGM Resorts and in March of twenty twenty, in the middle of March, we made the decision to close down because of the global pandemic. And essentially shut all of our operations. At the time we had over sixty thousand employees in the US. We were operating out of almost thirty locations. So if you think about big, large buildings, hotels, casinos, restaurants, entertainment venues, conference centers, and closing buildings that had no doors, no locks, and shutting them down in a matter of days. We furloughed two thirds of our workforce at the time. literally had to go and find locks to shut the buildings and go dark on the strip in Las Vegas where the lights never turn off and the operations are open twenty-four by seven. ⁓ but we had set up a command center and ⁓ the leadership team were working through it and there were so many moments that that that touched me and struck me that we learned from. And I think one of the most poignant ones was shortly after we had shut down the buildings. It was the second week of it was in early April of twenty twenty where one of our local charities had reached out to us and there were acute shortages of in southern Nevada ⁓ and Clark County where we were where we had been operating. And ⁓ a small team of us got together and our chefs volunteered to open two of the kitchens in our largest hotels, the Ari and the Bellagio, and to Come in and to cook food and to prepare a thousand meals a day to go back out into the community. Now you can imagine this is in the middle of the pandemic where everyone is masked up wearing gloves, where we were sanitizing everything. And it was a searing moment to see the selflessness and team members coming together in this moment of crisis because there was an urgent need in the community, and coming and cooking and Putting their own personal health and safety at risk, but operating as a team to be able to cook the food, plate the food, package the food, load it up onto vans and trucks, and then distribute it out to the community in a safe way. And putting themselves at risk, ⁓ because remember, this was April of twenty twenty when everything had shut down and you had travel restrictions and we didn't have the vaccinations at that time. And it was a moment that really stands out to me of the power of teamwork, the power of followership, of following a leader, following the instructions, following the protocols, doing everything you could to make sure that people were safe, as safe as could be in those circumstances, but for the larger good. And Coordinating. I mean, if you think about the amount of coordination to produce a thousand meals, you know, and we did this for 14 days straight, seven days a week. Wow. Was pretty remarkable. And so it was one of those defining moments of leadership, of followership, of coming together where there was no playbook, ⁓ there was no model. Or a I I couldn't pull out a how-to manual on how we were gonna do this, right? But our teams came together, our chefs came together, our kitchen staff came together, our food and beverage managers came together and we figured it out and we got it done. And ⁓ that's where I think leadership, teamwork, clarity of communication, and people being willing to follow a a new order, a new set of rules, a new way of cooking, packing you know, distributing in a way we'd never done before was a remarkable example. I think a real testament to my team at MGM and all of the people in April of twenty twenty that that came together to do this.

speaker-0: Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's it it there's a recent reflection I had even just from last week's episode and this idea that we don't really rise to the occasion. I think we fall to our lowest kind of practice pattern, you know, and I think about how to be big in the big moments, you have to be big in the little things.

speaker-1: Yeah. Teresa.

speaker-0: Okay, well, Joti, this has been such a generous conversation. I wanna thank you again for your time and for sharing it so candidly. To everyone listening, if you found this useful, please subscribe and share it with someone who would benefit. I'm Mike Morand. See you next time. ⁓ yeah.