Michael Morand: All right.

Cory Stern: Amazing.

Michael Morand: All right, well, ⁓ welcome to Team Chemistry. I'm Mike Morand. This podcast is about the real science behind how teams work, not the motivational poster version, but what actually happens when you put people together and you ask them to do something hard. My guest today is Corey Stern, and it's no accident that he's the first person to sit in this chair. Corey is the vice president and global head of HR for med tech functions at Johnson Johnson. Where he spent over two decades leading HR across some of the most complex parts of the business, from recruiting to supply chain to running human resources for Ethicon, Johnson <unk> Johnson's global surgery technology platform. He holds a master's in organizational behavior from Cornell and a coaching certification from Columbia. What I think makes Corey distinctive isn't the credentials, it's that he's someone who has spent his entire career developing people as a core part of his job, not as an afterthought. He's a mentor, coach, and a founding advisor at Troop HR, a national network for people leaders. He's also someone I've known for years as a mentor and role model in my own career. And there's nobody I'd rather have as a first guest on this podcast. Corey, welcome to Team Chemistry.

Cory Stern: Thanks, Mike. I appreciate it. It's to say it's a privilege to be with you is an understatement. That may be one of ⁓ the greatest professional honors just being asked to help launch somebody's ⁓ podcast career. And so ⁓ I have such admiration and and love for you and everything that you've done and everything you're doing. So I'm really excited to be here with you.

Michael Morand: Thank you so much, Corey. All right, so today ⁓ we're gonna talk about something I think is one of the most underexplored ideas in leadership. That when you are on a team that isn't fixed or sorry. Sorry, Corey, I'm gonna repeat that part. Today we're gonna talk about something that I think is one of the most underexplored ideas in leadership. That who you are on a team isn't fixed. ⁓ the same person can show up as a completely different performer, a different thinker, even a different personality, depending upon the team they're in. And if that's true, it changes everything about how we think about development, coaching, and what it actually means to build a great team. So, Corey, here's something I keep coming back to. We talk about people like they're fixed. He's a strong communicator, she's a natural leader, he struggles with conflict. But I don't think that's how it actually works. I think teams activate different versions of who we are. The same person can be boldly creative on one team and cautiously analytical on another, outspoken in one room, silent in the next. Not because they've changed, but because the team's dynamics are pulling things out of them. And you've coached hundreds of leaders. And you mentioned that the concept of identity comes up in almost every coaching conversation. You know, when a leader comes to you and they're struggling. How often is the real issue not about who they are, but about which version of themselves is the the team is actually activating?

Cory Stern: that is a brilliant question to get started with and packed with lots of different ⁓ threads and nuggets and pearls of of wisdom and you know, I I will say just to kind of get started I I I tend to think about things in in simpler terms or in in terms that, you know, help cut through the complexity of issues like team dynamics, team effectiveness, team health. ⁓ things that are well researched, studied, models built, models developed. ⁓ and yes, I've been to graduate school and ⁓ gone through team effectiveness certifications. You know, I think for me the this blend of art and science when thinking about ⁓ you know the the the dynamics that individuals face being part of teams is is where I get a lot of energy in in thinking about ⁓ and and working with leaders on sort of this intersection of of art and science. ⁓ And when I think about your question, there's sort of one Go-to foundational question that I like to ask leaders, ⁓ whether it's in a formal coaching engagement ⁓ or just as I'm working as an HR business partner for teams that I work on, and and it's a very simple question. And the question is this: how are people experiencing you and your leadership in this moment? And The reason that I like to ask this question why I think about it when you pose the question that you asked is it sort of creates a little bit of a moment of reflection for people to think about how they're showing up in a room, how they're showing up as part of a team, how they might be coming across in their interactions, how they might be perceived, how others are experiencing them. And I think it's an important framing for people to stop to think about because you know so much of what we do as employees or leaders as members of teams we focus on performance and focus maybe a little bit less on the way people are being experienced. and so that like forced moment of reflection, drawing attention to the way that you know your behaviors are influencing others or showing up or experienced by others, I think just changes the framework a little bit to think about sort of this this intersection of identity ⁓ and the influence that teams and environments have on individuals. and I actually there's there's one leader that I'm coaching now in particular, and she is dealing with I'd say let's call it a challenging relationship with her manager. So much so that she is Recently been put on a performance plan, which was a little surprising to this particular person. ⁓ And this person has talked very openly about looking to receive the feedback, understanding where some of her development gaps are, why she's in the situation that she's in. ⁓ But she's also struggling a lot to think about some of the things that her leader might be missing. ⁓ Great feedback from her business partners. She's getting great feedback from her leader's leader. There are lots of positive indicators. And so while she's open to thinking about, okay, what are some of the deficits that she's got, what are some of the limitations, where might she be underperforming? There's a lot of other mixed signals that she's getting. And so you've got this sort of confusion that she's faced with. ⁓ and so as we've spent some time talking about, okay, what might be happening with respect to your leader that you feel a little bit challenged by? What is she experiencing? How might she be experiencing the way you show up, the ideas that you're bringing forward? And and what it's causing her to realize is, and it was an interesting insight that she developed, and she said, you know, it's possible that I am a threat to my manager. And we stopped and I said, Well, what do you what do you mean by that? So, well, she might be threatened by the ideas, the creativity, some of the strengths that I'm bringing forward that she doesn't have. And

Michael Morand: Mm. Wow.

Cory Stern: She might be threatened by the strong relationship that I have with her boss. She might be threatened by the ways that my business partners are valuing me that might be potentially undermining my manager. And so this sort of nugget of I might be a threat to my manager wasn't about. Hey, I am deferring responsibility for some of my gaps or some of the feedback that I'm getting. But it was a way to think about what else might be going on. And that's where you kind of have this intersection of, all right, well, my identity versus how I'm being perceived and experienced is just created a different level of awareness and I think kind of highlights you know these these relational challenges that we know at the heart of any team effectiveness or any team health. So that's That's why kind of going back to where I started, hey, how are people experiencing me as a leader? Has lots of different possibilities if you really stop and explore it a little bit.

Michael Morand: I love that example and thank you for sharing that. It's ⁓ you know, as you're describing kind of how people experience you, you know, that really made me think of there's this an interesting kind of study that I was looking at earlier. ⁓ the psychologist, ⁓ Walter Michel and his ⁓ and his research partner kind of study people who had similar levels of behavior, say aggressiveness, and they found that they differed dramatically in that different you know, in that behavior depending upon the situation. And what they called it was if then personality signatures. So if in this context, then this version shows up. And the team is kind of part of that situation. But in your example, I'm thinking about kind of does that match kind of the description of the the individual you are referencing. Kind of if if in this situation with the supervisor, then kind of this this kind of alternate personality or version of of you know oneself shows up a certain way.

Cory Stern: Yes.

Michael Morand: And and and maybe they're kinda reading the the s you know, the signals of some of the things that they're picking up on and and how, you know, her boss was kind of interpreting her and ⁓ potentially as you were saying, kind of feeling threatened by that experience, but

Cory Stern: Yeah, I yeah. I mean I think it it it just allows you to open up sort of the frame of reference for everything that's happening around a relationship or A particular ⁓ dynamic or a challenge that you face as a part of a team or in relationship with your manager, right? It's it's it gives you different cues, different insights, maybe different perspectives that allow you to to kind of think about not just your perspective on a situation, but broader dynamics that that might be relevant and and you know might provide some some nuggets of of wisdom to help unlock or move things forward.

Michael Morand: I love that. Yeah, and ⁓ you know, and and one of the other kind of I I know I've already bored you with some this, but some of my ⁓ you know, personal strong interests is looking at the study of complex systems and you know to kind of add another angle to this, you know, complexity science, th they have a name for kind of this concept and they call them attractor states. Right. And it's this idea that, you know, teams develop behavioral defaults, you know, that these defaults kind of pull individuals into a certain pattern. And, you know, the pattern belongs to the team, not to the person. I think that's an important note. Kind of not just patterns of behavior for us as individuals, but the patterns that exist, you know, at the team level, which which might explain kind of why someone may get stuck in one environment and then kind of thrives in another. And and you know, and maybe taking a big step back, you know, I think it's also important to to note ⁓ just From ⁓ you at least for grammatical accuracy, you know, to say, you know, the big difference between groups and teams, you know, and I think, you know, we talk about a team and the setting here, you know, I'm thinking about a team as, you know, ⁓ it could be a group of individuals, and sure, they share goals, but I think what distinguishes teams from groups is that they also have interdependence. And with that in mind, like even the the dyad of a supervisor and the supervisee.

Cory Stern: Yes.

Michael Morand: you know, you know, that's a team, right? Or it is is a team in its own right. And it's a and it's a partnership where there is interdependence, where they do rely on each other. You know, and I would very much think that there could be those kind of patterns of behavior that they get set into and that are very, very hard to kind of break out of.

Cory Stern: Yeah. Yeah. I I I I you know, I I agree with you and ⁓ listen, y I I am not a ⁓ academician and every once in a while I will ⁓ re revert back to sort of one theory of human motivation or personality that actually does resonate with me. ⁓ and and and I think about a lot and I think it sort of gets at this either, you know, the relationships across teams that forge a team identity or individual relationships, and it's the theory of self determination, which is very simple.

Michael Morand: Mm-hmm.

Cory Stern: Very, very simple. And it's basically says three things that that people want to feel you know fully engaged and fully motivated. Number one, they want to have their autonomy respected, meaning they want to be able, we, they, I, want to feel like I have choices and I have the ability to have control over circumstances around my experience. Number two, it's all about competence, right? I want to be able to contribute, show the excellence that I'm capable of, help. Demonstrate what I bring to help goals be accomplished, whether it's individual goals or team goals. And then the third one's all about relationship. It's all about community. It's all about relatedness. And we all want to feel part of something bigger. We want to have connections. We want to be part of a community. Right? And so if those three things are in place, you're gonna have highly engaged teams. Those are the conditions that allow for engagement. Right. And I think how often is that really paid attention to when you're thinking about a team dynamic? and and I think it gets at, well, ⁓ we're not just here to think about performance, we're here to think about motivation. And That is very different for every individual that shows up as part of a team dynamic. And so while there's this individual level connection or relationship to this sort of theory of motivation, it also exists at a team level. And that's a tricky thing, I think, for a lot of leaders who are responsible for leading teams to think about and pay attention to at both the individual level and the team level. ⁓ Yet I'd argue it's probably maybe one of the most important responsibilities that leaders face ⁓ to be thinking about it in sort of this this just more micro-level perspective about what's motivating people and members of a team.

Michael Morand: I love that. I and ⁓ I have never heard that one before. Theory of self-determination. I'm definitely gonna look at that. It makes me think of kind of McGregor's theory X Theory Y.

Cory Stern: I don't I don't I do not have a lot No, sorry to interrupt my I just I ha for the record I do not have a lot more other academic theories to offer up ⁓ or to base any experience on, but it's one that I think works.

Michael Morand: No, I love that. But I mean you but your lived experiences ⁓ you know are are just I that's where I really ⁓ think we're gonna get the l most value. You know, I'm happy to kinda geek out on some of the academic stuff, but ⁓ you know, I need the other stuff too. Yeah, and and I gonna say, you that makes me think of like McGregor's theory X and theory Y, which kinda like is taught in every business school on the planet, right? This like theory of motivation at the individual level, like the theory X of like people don't want to work, they have to be kind of controlled into doing work, or they have to be, you know, to kinda hit him with a cattle prod to like get them going every day, versus theory y. It's like, you know, people want to work hard. They they they want to, you know, feel like they have a sense of purpose and ⁓ you know, just that meaning in their work. And and I feel like we just kind of explained the theory of self determination kind of gives us another kind of angle to kind of think about like, you know, the the then one. You know, so if you believe that people want these things, you know, what does that look like more in practice? And and I think that the points you shared really help us think more ⁓ more effectively about that. Awesome. Well, you know, if ⁓ you know so we were kind of discussing this, you know, so if the team kind of shapes who shows up, you know, that raises a big question about where the real leverage is. And ⁓ you know, Amy Edmondson, who's now kind of famous for her tremendous work on psychological safety, ⁓ you know, her research shows that the same person can thrive on one team and struggle on another. You know, the same skills, same drive, completely different output. You know, it's not that they got smarter or they lost their edge. It's that the conditions changed. And so after twenty years of watching this play out at Johnson and Johnson across different businesses and team cultures. You know, what have you learned about which conditions matter most? You know, when when you've seen someone go from stuck to thriving, what really shifted around them?

Cory Stern: That's a good question. I ⁓ So I you know, I I I love Amy Edmondson's work around psych psychological safety. I I'm I'm a big believer in it and similar to the conversation that we just had, there there is there is no shortcut to building psych psychological safety, right? I mean it is it is it's sort of like You know, we talk about culture and building culture. ⁓ big it's too big or complicated an idea for me to get my head around. And and psychological safety kind of falls into that same bucket. But when I think about culture in in sort of in and it's it's it's a term that I like to use a lot when talking about culture. Culture is made in the millions of moments that happen during every work week, right? Every moment that you have at work can Contributes to culture, whether it's sort of an organizational culture or the culture that you experience. And I think psychological safety is a little bit ⁓ like that. And it has to be nurtured, right? Our leaders that set the tone have to pay attention and think about well, what are the things that they're doing in a day-in, day-out basis to create psychological safety? Because you know, I think that just speaks to the complexity of the environment that we all should. up to every day. So, you know, while there may be two different quarries that show up to a team experience, right? And I can think about this right now in some of my my my my different teams that I show up show up to. you know some places I'm showing up really confident, equipped, prepared, ⁓ feeling like I'm on I'm I'm on top of things. And then there's other teams that I plug into where I Feel maybe a little bit more on my back foot, or I'm feeling a little bit more hesitant. And some of that is my own responsibility, maybe my own preparedness, ⁓ you know, my my the level of acumen I have about the different businesses that I support and work with. ⁓ but I also think that it is very much about the team dynamics. and you know, we can't just look at a leader of a team and hold them accountable for the team dynamic. And that's why in a lot of the coaches. that I do. ⁓ If people are presenting with challenges around ⁓ how they're showing up in a team or challenges in a team dynamic or challenges with their manager. ⁓ You know, it's sort of like the the internal locus of control. You start with, well, well, what, what, what, what What can you do? What are the conditions that you can influence in the and and create? But it starts with a lot of awareness. And you know, there's there's a ⁓ great poem, so I'll get a little bit sort of artistic now for a second, but there's a great poet whose name is Mary Oliver. She talks a lot about sort of nature and existence and a lot of philosophical topics in very, very simple terms. And she wrote a poem called Sometimes. ⁓ I think it was maybe 2008-2009, and there's a stanza in that poem that's ⁓ I think it's called Instructions for Living Life. I may have that a little bit wrong, but but it's sort of the concept. And there's three lines in this stanza of the poem that that basically say pay attention, be astonished, and tell all about it. And I use that in conversations with some leaders sometimes because that in essence gives you permission to influence the teamed environment that you're you're part of, right? Pay attention. What's happening in the world, the context around you? How are you observing the experiences, the interactions, the behaviors, what's said? How are you really being surprised and maybe open to different possibilities? And and lastly, right, tell all about it is that puts the accountability on us to actually do something about it. And I think that, you know, that there's a close connection to the reality of teams being very messy, very, very complicated, very uncertain. ⁓ Yet you can choose how to show up and engage and sort of assert your autonomy and your competence to be able to influence some of those those outcomes and experiences. ⁓

Michael Morand: ⁓ so many things you said that ⁓ that I love. Well I'll sorry by saying like for the poetry, I'm here for it. You know, that's that's awesome. Thank you. ⁓ you know, I think that's a it's an amazing kind of pull, ⁓ you know, and that kind of perspective of how to frame that, you know, and and I think the thing that you said that struck me maybe the most is how I've kind of thought about this is you know, the the need to kind of self assess as well. You know, yes, recognize the environment, kind of you know, try to understand that part of it. But as you were saying about kind of the internal locus of control, external locus of control, right? Things happen to me or I make things happen. ⁓ you know, how much of that's on me and how much of it is kind of the conditions. And I think also the point you made about like it's not just the leader that's responsible for creating those conditions, right? It's it's it's everyone. And then I think to kind of, you know, bring the the mirror back to sort of say, and what is my role in that?

Cory Stern: Yeah.

Michael Morand: I feel like that gives a a lot to think about, kind of entering those different scenarios. But I think yeah, I think you're right. I think it starts with that awareness, ⁓ you know, of how you're showing up in different ways. I feel like it's so easy just to be on autopilot, right? Like going to the next meeting and the next meeting and not really thinking about your thinking.

Cory Stern: Listen, I ⁓ you know, I I had ⁓ maybe the first ⁓ executive coach that I worked with for myself left me with this nugget of of creating strategic pause time. P A U S E. Right. And it's always stuck with me because we all know it. There is there is no time in the day. There there is no strategic pause time. But that was her challenge to me as I was coming into my first big people leadership job. She's like, Corey, listen, ⁓ nobody's gonna do it for you. ⁓ but that's where we all know. ⁓ the ideas and the growth happens. and so I think it's sort of relevant to the conversation that we're having now. You you can't stop and think about some of the concepts that we're talking about are maybe obvious, maybe sort of you know innate when you think about the relational dynamics of of the world of work, but unless we're creating the time and space for these things to emerge, we know the outcome.

Michael Morand: Yeah, for sure. You know, a and ⁓ you know, I think those are those are really great points. And you know, maybe to add one more or to kind of to to add to the, you know, Amy Evanson's body of work and some of the really just fascinating insights, you know, I I think that one of the most interesting things about the original kind of study on psychological safety, 'cause there's been several, but what one of the things that she showed is that the link between psychological safety and performance wasn't direct. you know, safety didn't make teams perform better on on its own. It enabled learning behaviors, you know, and and teams that felt safe sought more feedback. They experimented more. They discussed errors more openly. And then those behaviors are what actually drove performance. And so it's not to say, you know, it's not that safety feels good. It's that it unlocks behaviors that actually produce results. And so, you know, I think that's bit of kind of what you were speaking to before in those different different scenarios, but I'm wondering kinda how how that matches or ⁓ or if it doesn't with your experience.

Cory Stern: Great, I agree.

Michael Morand: Awesome. Well, ⁓ you know, maybe shifting gears a little bit, ⁓ you know, I think this kind of creates a a really interesting ⁓ puzzle for someone who does what you do. ⁓ you know, a leader walks into a coaching session and says, Corey, I'm stuck. And they're asking for you to help them figure out what's wrong with them. But based on everything we've been talking about, maybe nothing's wrong with them. You know, maybe they're responding perfectly rationally to a system or to an environment that's constraining them in ways that neither, you know, neither of you could see ⁓ fully from inside that kind of coaching space. And so I guess my question for you is you know, how do you navigate that? How do you figure out whether you're looking at a personal growth edge or a system problem wearing an individual face mask?

Cory Stern: Ooh, I I l I like I like the ⁓ the metaphor there. I you know I i there's there's an element of of personal values that I think is also relevant in this in this conversation. and I say that because you know we we operate in a world of of a lot of feedback. performance feedback ⁓ feedback that people get, hey, you know, if I and I I always like to say this about you know Johnson and Johnson, which is such a great relationship driven organization, values based. You know, people really care for each other. It's it's the the thing that's kept me at the company for over twenty years. you know the Th there is a desire to support and invest in relationships. and in some instances, ⁓ and I've had this experience where I'll ask people, hey, what do you think about a career next step that I should make? If I ask five different people that I might get ten different opinions. And all with the best intent. ⁓ but I think why why you've got me thinking about it is it ties back to this this concept of of values. And what's important to me? And am I satisfying those values and the experiences that I'm having? Is the team that I'm part of nurturing my values, bringing out the best of me and my values? Whether it's, you know, I'm a high, high achiever and it's challenging me to stretch myself, or if I tend to be a little bit more introverted and I value saying less. Yet the organization. Organization maybe is telling me that I'm not speaking up enough, right? Where's the balance? Well, the balance exists where we find the right intersection of satisfying our own values and the expectations of the teams and the organization around us. So you know, that's where I like to bring a lot of values-based coaching into the equation, because otherwise you get pulled by so many of the other dynamics that exist around us. Expectations of our jobs, expectations of our leaders, expectations of a culture. and that can drown out what really matters the most. ⁓ and to the degree that we can keep that connection, then it allows us to take stock of what's working, what's not working, what may be out of balance, why might I be struggling in this environment, or why might I be on fire? Why might I be feeling like I'm hitting on all cylinders? You know, I'd argue that there's There's always a playback to values that's that's underneath the surface. So I think it kind of you know plays back somewhere in this ⁓ you know what's what's happening with my growth edge, or is there something else that's happening with the team environment ⁓ that that's really at play? So ⁓ that's that's where that's where I go back to when I think about sort of the question that you posed.

Michael Morand: Yeah. Yeah, I know and I love ⁓ you know the tie in with with ⁓ the values piece. And I feel like this is also like one of those spaces where we use the term values all the time and you know, throw throw throw in the mi you know, on the list with leadership and culture and you know, you ask ten people their kind of opinions of the definition of these things, like what does it mean to you and you get fourteen opinions of it. You know, and I think about you know, the distinction I that comes to mind for me when you kind of talk about values, ⁓ I think about the distinction between beliefs and values. You know, beliefs in kind of what do I think is true, and then values, what do I think is important? And, you know, I think about your personal values is, you know, reflecting on that that lens of kind of how what are the things that I, you know, think are important for me in this scenario, the things that I want. And then I think, you know, the other piece of it that you're bringing in is, you know, in that team environment, how does that kind of fit into the equation? ⁓ and just seeking to understand the variables kind of in that mix that will either speak effectively or be ⁓ accretive to their values or a good fit with kind of those. And I think that, you know, understanding both sides of that are are really, really important. You know, and I think ⁓ you know, the other kind of you know piece that comes to mind here, you know, came across this ⁓ I'd heard the term before but didn't really I I didn't really know what it meant ⁓ completely, but there's a cognitive bias that I believe kind of makes this whole thing even harder. And it's called the fundamental attribution error. And ⁓ psychologist Lee Ross, named Lee Ross, ⁓ identified this back in the late 70s. So this is not a recent kind of concept, but the idea is that we're wired to over attribute behavior to the individual and under attribute it to the situation. So when someone underperforms, our default is well, what's wrong with them? Not, you know, what is it about this environment that's producing this behavior? You know, I'm I'm curious, you know, your experience, ⁓

Cory Stern: Yeah.

Michael Morand: you know, as a as a coach and, you know, how do you kind of how do you work against that? You know, how do you kind of counter that side of it?

Cory Stern: Well, I I think y you you you you're making me think of a story that it it's it's ⁓ it's gonna sound political but it but it's not. And there's a ⁓ a leader that I was coaching this probably now six years ago, ⁓ five years ago, and she was up for a big job, big promotion, international move. and ended up not getting the job. And we were debriefing what happened, what what she thought was ⁓ the reason that she didn't get the job. And what she shared was she had gone through an assessment process, ⁓ a pretty rigorous assessment process, right? A a case study scenario, a written assessment, and She didn't do well on the assessment. And what she shared with me that nobody knew because she didn't want to share it, was she took the assessment on the same day as a as a a pretty significant event going on ⁓ in the US on that particular day, and it was ⁓ the January 6th ⁓ events up on Capitol Hill several years ago. And that never Would show itself in terms of the outcome of an assessment. But she was not able to perform her best because there were other influences and other factors. Now I share that and it comes to mind because You know, these are the types of things that lurk under the surface when you look at somebody's what they're showing up doing that's visible in the organization, whether it's an output of assessment or a deliverable that they turn in or a presentation that they give. Right? I mean, how many times might you be showing up giving a presentation and dealing with something that nobody would ever have any idea about ⁓ outside of work that are gonna influence and impact your Ability to perform. So I, you know, this goes back to there's no shortcuts here, but I think there needs to be an awareness, a recognition that we as leaders need to think more broadly about what's happening around the teams that we lead, the people that we lead. We need to show a an interest and a desire to connect in. Doesn't mean that everybody has to bring all of themselves to work. No, that's that's not what I'm saying. saying at all. ⁓ But you have to acknowledge that identity exists on many different levels, certainly not just at the level that ⁓ any one of us experience with people on the nine to five of our workday, which I know that will get a laugh because it's not nine to five, but you get the point.

Michael Morand: Yeah. I love that. I I really love that. You know, and I think about the ⁓ because I feel like you're you're adding kind of other, you know, ⁓ additional layers or context, you know, not just the the individual's kind of ⁓ you know, lived experience or how they're experiencing something, but you know, sort of seeing the team environment and then I think the point you're also adding is, you know, thinking about the the world that they live in outside of that and how that's coming in. But I and I love the tie in of like, you and then it's the leader's responsibility, it's a team's responsibility to kind of show that willingness to to connect and to try to to understand those those elements. I feel like that's something I haven't heard before kind of put that way. I think that's that's really amazing.

Cory Stern: it's I mean it's a d it's a s it's a skill, right? I mean it it's we we we don't really teach ⁓ how you know we we talk a lot about inclusion and inclusiveness and helping people bring the best of themselves ⁓ which I completely agree and buy in and support. but you know how to help people bring out the best of themselves, the fullness of themselves. I i it's it's a s it's it's a skill. It's a really a delicate skill that I don't think gets enough time, energy, and attention.

Michael Morand: more. ⁓ if I but if I can ask, you know, for us to kind of zoom out for a second, you know, I think that when we talk about the need for development, the need for leaders to understand some of these different ⁓ behaviors that are accretive to the team's ability to, as you were saying, connect, to the the ability to perform. But you know what strikes me, Corey, is that organizations seem to, you know invests very seriously in developing individual leaders, you know, with with coaching and training and competency models. And that's that is good investment. That's that that matters. But you know, when it comes to teams and some of these environments and and these elements that don't really ⁓ belong to any one person on them, you know, how trust develops, how conflict plays out. Whether information gets shared or gets hoarded, you know, those dynamics don't maintain themselves. They shift, they degrade, they need deliberate attention. You know, the same kind of deliberate attention we give to individual development. But but we don't really seem to do that. We develop in the players and hope the team figures itself out. You know, from but from where you sit, having designed development programs led HR for major, major business units, ⁓ and and now and coaching leaders through it as well, you know. Why do you think that gap exists and you know, what would it look like to begin to close that?

Cory Stern: Yeah. Yeah, I I I you're gonna see a theme probably continue through through how I think about your question. I have to tell ya, if you ask anybody what they think about when they either join a new team or Get started chartering a new team, right? What what are the things that that are focused on? Or if you're going into a team development activity, what are what are the the fundamental elements? Well, we talk about team mission, team purpose, developing norms. What's our cadence for how we work? ⁓ you know, what are our goals and objectives gonna be? You know, these are these are the foundations of of team effective. All critical, they have to exist. But what do we not spend as much time focused on is talking about the real energy that fuels a team. On well, what version of every person on this team are we bringing out? What are we doing to allow people to bring their full identity to the to the to the game? ⁓ you know, are we creating a team identity both at the individual level and the group level that we can be proud of? Those are the questions I think are really compelling and really interesting and and maybe the types of things that become really important to team health, to team effectiveness, team development, ⁓ in addition to the key elements of of values, mission, purpose, right? I mean it maybe it's almost a little bit of like the old analogy of you know, we build the house, we put up the foundation, we build the walls, we build the rooms, but maybe What we haven't done enough of in this case is turn on the electricity, right? Turn the energy on to power up the house. I think that's sort of akin to where the opportunity exists to really develop and bring more precision to this very complicated topic of identity. I I'm not naive. This is not easy stuff. But because it's not easy and because these conversations are harder, we've got to find simpler ways. ways to integrate it into the expectations that we have of leaders. I also think as we talked about some of the coaching work I do that each of us as individual members of a system have responsibility for seeing these things and bringing them to the table in the ways that we're able to. ⁓ So so that's that's where I think team development needs to go. We don't need more programs or or team effectiveness models. ⁓ It's putting a little bit of the energy into the system through through some of these questions that tie to identity?

Michael Morand: I love that. Awesome. Well, ⁓ you know, last question kind of before the lightning round, and Corey, I I want to ask this to every guest on team chemistry. And and you know, the ask is that you think about a team you were part of where something happened that broke an assumption you were carrying about how teams work. Maybe it shouldn't have worked, but it did. Maybe it fell apart in a way you didn't see coming. You know, what was the experience and what did it break?

Cory Stern: hmm. What did it break? Well, so ⁓ this is gonna be a very personal experience for me when I think about actually ⁓ somebody that I worked for probably ⁓ going back 10 10, 12 years ago. working for this person was probably the most exhausting experience I've had and the most fulfilling. And I say that because this person and and everybody that was on this person's team with me, I think we had a shared experience, which was anytime I would go into a one on one with this person, my manager, I knew I was gonna get beat up with feedback. I mean Really beat up with feedback. I would see if I did a presentation 30 minutes after the presentation, I'd be in a ⁓ a debrief conversation with my manager. Hey, here's what you didn't do well, here's what you missed, here's what you didn't see. If we had a team meeting We would always end these convert these team meetings with feedback for how our team was was doing or not doing. It was this this person had such a acutely developed, well-developed feedback muscle. And for me, that was the first time I had consistently gotten open, challenging, critical feedback. And that was really hard. And that was humbling, and that definitely created a little bit of of sort of ⁓ some confidence challenges at the time. But that was the exhausting part. What made it so inspiring was I had also never felt as cared for by the same person. and the team felt that same way because it was done With a clear bias towards, I care about you. I am here selflessly to support your success. I want you to improve. And that was so known. And there was a lot of work that this person did with me individually and with our team, in sort of the cracks in between the day-to-day experiences ⁓ to build a real safe environment. But it took some time. But this this tension of I I don't know if that broke the mold, but it showed me what was possible for the first time and having that type of relationship with ⁓ my leader at the time, with a leader of a of a significant team, ⁓ that just just managed that paradox so beautifully and and taught me lots of lessons about what what's possible when you have real high accountability, real high demands, real sharp ability to challenge and help you grow. with being as as as warm and inviting and comfortable showing care and concern as anybody and that that was that was a really beautiful experience.

Michael Morand: ⁓ I love that. I love that. And and and with that ⁓ you know, the first thing that kinda comes to mind for me, I'm not sure if you've come across ⁓ the book Radical Candor. You know, I I think what what really sticks to me from that book is kind of the the two by two, right? The ⁓ you know, in the you got the four quadrants and you know when you have high expectations or like an I I forget exactly kind of how she framed it, ⁓ Kim Scott was the author. ⁓ but like when you have high expectations and high performance, but you you match that with kind of high caring and consideration and want for the person ⁓ to do well, right? Like that's it sounds like what you're describing.

Cory Stern: That was it. That was it. That was exactly it. And and it just I you know, I you don't see it that often, right? In in ways that provoke emotion, right? For me, that's what it was. I was provoked to like really feel like the full range of emotions that I think brought out the best, not always, but it stuck with me. It was it was a real great lesson and and and real inspiring.

Michael Morand: Yeah. ⁓ wow. Well, ⁓ you know, there's a big part of me that wants to just kinda like, you know, drop the mic and sort of say like that's you know, that's it. But I did want to kinda ask ⁓ for our for a quick lightning round if you're up for it. ⁓ you know, looking for the the first thing that comes to mind. All right. So one word to describe the best team you've ever been on.

Cory Stern: I don't know. I'm not sure. Hole.

Michael Morand: Alright, next one. If you can ban one phrase from every team meeting forever, what is it? That's a good one.

Cory Stern: ⁓ Parking lot. Get rid of it. It is what a cop out. It is such a crutch of weak teams. Parking lot, sorry.

Michael Morand: ⁓ I love that. Yeah. I'm with you. All right. If you can add one rule that every team in the world must follow, what is it?

Cory Stern: Pay attention.

Michael Morand: All right, finish this sentence. Every great team has at least one person who

Cory Stern: Shows a side of themselves that's not rehearsed.

Michael Morand: Wow. All right. Last one. Best team you've seen in sports, film or history.

Cory Stern: Well, I'm a New York Knicks fan. It's my my team of teams. And I'd like to think they will be the answer to this question if they go on to win the NBA championship, which I probably just jinxed by saying that out loud. So that can't be my answer. well my f my one of my favorite movies all time. Well, my favorite movie sports wise is ⁓ my god, I cannot believe ⁓ Field of Dreams. Sorry. My favorite favorite movie is Field of Dreams, but that's not that's not really a good team movie. Remember the Titans. Denzel Washington. powerful, powerful movie, powerful team story. yeah, remember the Titans.

Michael Morand: ⁓ I love that. Those are great examples. You I had ⁓ you know, had ⁓ his wife and I think it was his son as well kind of helping him. So, you they had they had a team. But no, remember the Titans, that's ⁓ you know, that's that's an all timer for sure. Well Well, Corey, thank you. That was this was exactly the conversation I was hoping to have. And ⁓ I think that wraps us up for today. You know, it's our our first episode of Team Chemistry. ⁓ and for the listeners, you know, if this conversation made you think about your own team differently, that's that's the point.

Cory Stern: Classic.

Michael Morand: So thank you so much again, Corey, and ⁓ thank you so much for everyone for listening.

Cory Stern: Thank you, Mike. It's great to be with you. Good luck with all the future podcasts. I know you're gonna kill it.

Michael Morand: You're so hoping. Build the dream style. If you built it, they woke up. There we go. Alright. Thank you.

Cory Stern: Yeah w well played, well played. Love it. Thank you, my friend. Take care.