DOC: To another episode of Scene Interpretation. I am Dr. Sophia Murphy, a licensed therapist here in Arizona, and your friendly neighborhood Cinephile Extraordinaire. I am so excited for today because we have the OG in the house from the pilot episode back for round two. If you want to reintroduce yourself, we're gonna get into our movie for today. I'm Thaiese. I am Manager, I am not a Cinephile. And I don't typically watch scary movies, so this one was this was interesting. Yes, so we had our soft launch into Spooky Season last week. We did the very lovely, lighthearted, practical magic. We are done with that shit. We're getting into the scary, hardcore. Welcome to Spooky Season. It's fucking October. I'm so excited. And I'm thrilled that you were willing to step outside your comfort zone and watch a scary movie with. Me and I will say I've seen this movie many times, re-watched it, still jumped, still covered my eyes, might not be able to sleep. and it's worth it. So, as we kick off October in Scary Season 2026, we are gonna be revisiting Sinister. I think one of the most underrated great scary movies of the last I don't know, 20 years, 30 years. the music is scary. The images are scary, the jump scares are great. I can't wait to pick your brain. Okay. So overall thoughts. What was your takeaway of watching Sinister for the first time? So it was definitely, you know, again, don't really watch scary movies, and it was it definitely had me jumping a few times for sure. there was a point about halfway through the movie because I was watching it like on a Sunday night, and I was like, this is a daytime movie, say less. Turned off and went to bed. This is the tagline that I'm using for this episode. This is a daytime movie. I agree. I wish I could have seen it in the theater. I did not, and I have to watch it during the day. Yes. I absolutely even knowing where it's going, it gets under my skin. And it makes me literally like look behind me, like in the room. It just makes me scan the I'm just convinced something bad's gonna happen every time I watch it. Well, and the movie, the way that it's shot, it's so Dark. Yes. Even during the day it's dark. Yes. And I'm just like, why is nobody turns on lights? Like not. The house they're in is like a dungeon. Like dark curtains, dark paints. Dark everything. Yes. And his office is dark and creepy. Yes. 99% of the movie takes place. And the attic, which attics are just bad. I think we all know this. don't go in one if you can avoid it. Bad things are up there. So where do I want to start? I'm so excited. I guess walk me through the moment the super eight footage maybe move from like a plot device to something you genuinely like could not look away from like how did the super eight hit you so the movie opens with the super eight footage right with the family being hung and I actually had to rewind the opening scene a couple of times to like really look and see like what is happening. Yes. You know because like I saw the s I don't know knife or saw or whatever being tossed and I'm like, is there somebody up there? You know, so I rerrounded a couple of times to see if like there was somebody up there. But now that I've seen the movie, what I didn't notice in the opening scene was whether or not the boogeyman was in the background. I don't think you can see him in that snippet. Okay. I think you have to have Ethan Hawk zoom in when he's watching it on the computer. Okay. I will go back and check. Okay. I don't know. I'm scared about inviting Bagul into my own life because I've spent so much time looking at him and he must be real. but yeah, I'm pretty sure the little snippet you see you can't see it yet. Okay. Or maybe you just don't know to look for it because you're just so entranced. But how did you feel about it through the movie, the Super Eight footage and like using that as the main plot device. I thought it was interesting, and I found out so after I watched the movie, I actually went and found the second version. I like the second one too. And I watched it and it gave more background on like the entity that was like causing all of the things. And so it made it more like when I thought back on the first movie, I'm like, okay So that's like and we can talk about that like later, but I the Super 8 was interesting because it's like it's so grainy, yeah, and like it has so much texture. And then as I was watching, I was like, who is shooting this footage? Right. Right? Like I just understand, like, and then when he was playing the footage, the only this is the only thing that was going through my mind was like the the camera to play it back is so loud. I have to believe that the camera to shoot it is also as loud. That's a good point. Like nobody heard this camera shooting them, or whoever was shooting it, obviously they had no problem with. Yeah, that's true. That's a really good take. Because at first I thought it was like some, you know, random, you know, serial killer or something. Which we're supposed to think. Exactly. And I'm like, well, they would have heard this camera shooting them. And they would have seen some, you know, creepy man in the bushes shooting them. Right. I think you just broke. My brain because that's the ultimate, not red herring, it's the opposite. It's the ultimate. It's the ultimate breadcrumb of it. Must have been someone they were comfortable with, otherwise they would have been startled or. Alerted by the super loud camera in these private spaces of their home. I think you just figured out the biggest breadcrumb of this movie that never crossed my mind. Because it makes me think even now with IMAX cameras and how everything's now coming back around to IMAX, right? We had it in Sinners, we had it in Odyssey. And if you're like me and you watch every documentary and read every article, they're not only heavy, but they're so loud. Like the actors complain and it makes it very difficult to shoot on IMAX. So I'm picturing maybe not that level of noise, but I think you're really onto something that it would have had to be a trusted family member using that camera, or else they would have automatically known they're being filmed. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, we're done. So thanks for coming and hanging out with us. We just cracked the crack the code. man. No, that's awesome. I love it. And I think for me, the part I liked about how noisy the camera is is how it almost starts to haunt him. Like I really liked how it becomes almost. part of the soundtrack. It's like you can hear the click click click click click like it gets in your brain. And I love that part where he wakes up because he's hearing it and then he comes into the office and it's not playing. Actually, open the attic, but it's just like the fact that it it becomes an unsettling part of the soundtrack. It's almost like the the piece of like Jaws that was so iconic. Exactly. Instead of the two notes from Jaws, it's that little clicking sound starts to impede in your brain, and you know something bad's about to happen. There's another Jaws parallel that I draw. Ooh, this is a brilliant. We'll get to that or something. I love it, I love it. yeah, so kind of through. Throughout whole movie, Ellison, our main character, knows the house he moves into is a crime scene. Okay, let's talk about that. Yes. So he moves his family in anyway, telling himself it's because of his work. So he's basically justifying this decision, even though he knows he's wrong, because he's so constructed a story convincing himself that almost this is how he's believing in himself. Yes. It's like how he's hyping himself up. It's like worth it. So I'm just curious, yeah, what you had about that and what you think about the fact that his ambition he almost let himself be blinded by his ambition as if that justified it. So I wrote down a couple of things. so the first part where we realized that he moved into the house was when the wife asked him, like, we didn't move down the street from the crying scene, did we? And he's like, No. And I'm like, This lying motherfucker. Exactly. my and then like seconds later you see the tree outside. Yes. And I'm like I I could write this. Like I knew he moved into the house. Yes. So like one of the things that I wrote down was something like what you said where I was like, I bet you he justifies his actions as like I'm doing this for my family or for us you know, for their benefit or for his career or whatever the case may be when really it's just his ego. A hundred percent. Like Speaking of egos, right? And sort of doing things for the ego, or in this case, I think it's almost an obsession. Yes. That he's chasing this experience that he had, like, I don't know, was it 10, 15 years, however many years ago when he wrote that other book? In that being with his first book. And it's like it reminds me of like the fisherman from Jaws, yeah, whose obsession eventually killed him, just like Alice's. Look at this. You're so right. I mean Quint had gone through his trauma, right? Where he was on the submarine that was bombed and saw all of his friends get eaten by sharks and this became his like revenge fantasy. Right. And it killed him a thousand percent. And with Ellison, I think he had this fifteen minutes of fame. Right. And I do think there's an underlying a gender theme in the movie of like he's trying to provide for his kids and his wife and that's like very important to him for all the reasons, ego a hundred percent being one of them. And you're right, like it becomes his white whale, right? Or it becomes his great white shark. Even as he can see it's getting worse and worse and worse. Hundred percent. And I would say the other thing that's crazy is like his family doesn't want it. Right. They don't want the money. They don't want the fame. They don't they just want him and they want to feel safe. And like that's not important to him. I know, and I think in this rewatch, what stood out to me was I got the sense that they position the kids as like, they're just kids. They don't understand. They don't understand finances. They don't understand having two mortgages. They don't understand what it's like to provide. Right. And I could almost go with that. And I had a much harder time watching at this time when he's fighting with his wife. Yes. Over and over and over again. And she keeps saying like, I've always supported you. I've always been in your corner. I've always been your number one fan. Maybe that time has passed and there's many other things you could do to support this family. besides this one thing. And she literally said she was gonna leave him. Yes. And he did it anyway. He did not stop. No. Yeah. he Yeah. It's so fascinating and we'll get into all like the Bagul lore. The other thing that stood out, I'll just kind of plant this now, was that the story is not about the adults. It's about the kids. To me I wanted to wear a t shirt that said fuck them kids. This would have been the time. I couldn't find Maybe that's the tagline for the episode. That's right. which we're gonna get into because I love nothing more. than the kids being the bad guys. Like a demonic child is like the best worst in any movie ever. I'm like, it was the kids all along. Yeah. yeah, I just kinda kept thinking too though, like I wanted to explore more about how I wish we knew the other parents in those first four movies a little bit more. Like was there something going on where they were absent? Were they not as invested in the kids? Were they blinded by something? Maybe they were struggling with addiction, because that's kind of in there with him and the brandy, the whiskey, whatever he's having scotch. But to me it's really about how his blind ambition creates an opportunity for his daughter to be lured away by a demon because she's articulating I mean his son's having the night terrors. Yeah. She's articulating over and over again, I miss my friends, I miss my school. Like, she wants him, and he's unavailable. Yeah. And even when she makes his special coffee the first time, not the poison one, and brings it to his office, he just opens the door to take the coffee and goes back to the office. Like he closes the door in her face, like mid-day interaction. Correct. Yeah. And so this time I had more of a pull to like, what does it say about his character's blindness that created a space for her to become vulnerable to be lured away by Bughuul Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. And I wonder what other at least in the first film, I know there's different story in the second, but in the first film and those first four videos, I wonder what was happening with those adults that created a space for those kids to become susceptible. Interesting. Yeah. I feel like it could get really deep. Absolutely. Yep. I'm trying to think what else. Yeah what else I'm doing it for his himself. Mm-hmm. And we talked about who shot the family footage. And we talked I was like, why don't people turn on lights? Because it's a scary movie. I know. And I think I I've like scary movies that make sense. That's all. You know, which is probably why I liked scary movie when like people do not scary movie, what is it? Scream. yeah. Or people like do logical things or things that I would do. And then like maybe they still die or whatever. That's fine. But at least, you know, you tried. Yeah. And they're also supposed to be teenagers in that movie. So I feel like it makes it a little easier. Yeah. Because they're teenagers being hunted by other teenagers. It feels more grounded, I think. in this one you have to go with a little bit of that like science fiction aspect too. Yeah, I there there I just I so had so many questions though about I love it. 'Cause like one of the questions I was like, how did he know how to set up that old ass camera? And I know he had internet and Google and all of that. But it just seemed like he just instantly like knew how to do it. I don't know if it was the spirit of the boogeyman or what, I don't know. But like it seemed very intricate in terms of like how you had to set it. Yeah, exactly. And maybe I don't know. I don't think that crossed my mind just because dating myself. I remember watching certain things on a super eight like that in school. Not everything. But there was like a few times we had to like pull out a reel and like set it up to watch something. It's like when we had to use projectors. Like I just feel like that was a thing we did when I was a child. So I think another question I had And like before I knew that there was like a boogeyman and all of that, I was thinking it was like a serial killer. Right. Right. Which I think they wanted us to. That was the right thing. He finds these these tapes. Yes. Right. He plays them. And Then keeps playing them and in my head I'm like he's potentially destroying evidence. A thousand percent. For the sake of his book or his ego or whatever you want to say. Both. And he called the police, but then he hung up. Yes. So he clearly knew what he was doing. a hundred percent. I mean, I think that scene is pivotal because he is clearly mortified. Like he's not a sociopath. He's disturbed by the content. And he goes to pick up the phone. And when she asks him, he looks over And sees his book on the shelf and he chooses the potential of another best seller over reporting what is clearly a snuff film. Mm-hmm. And he just goes on. Yeah. So like I think that that is a pivotal moment of us introduce like understanding where he's at. the desperation, like you said, the ego, the selfishness is Extreme. He's going to go down this road if it means something positive. For him. And sometimes I wonder, like, when people are truly obsessed with something, yeah. Like if they knew it could kill them, would they still continue? Right? Like, and in that vein, does it make it almost as bad as like an addiction? I mean, when you were talking, the first thing I think about that's gonna be maybe controversial, I don't know, because it's the day we live in, is my first thought is what people will do for beauty. Like my first thought was we'll inject poison. In our face, we'll take uncertified medication, we will go under anesthesia, unnecessarily so to have surgery. That people die all the time under anesthesia. They do. And I think about like my new obsessions with some reality shows, and they're younger and younger, and still getting these major surgeries. And it's just like I do think we're obsessed and slightly addicted to certain things, even though it could hurt us. Like we put blinders on for a potential outcome. And it's almost like there are certain obsessions or addictions that are more socially acceptable than others. Right? Like if someone is say, I don't know, addicted to running or running marathons, nobody's gonna bat an eyelash because you know they're health exactly. You're just committed. But if they're not spending time with their kids 'cause they're always training or you know what I mean, they're doing all of these things, then like, is it healthy? I mean, I think that's a perfect question is we like to pick and choose. We do. And as you were talking, I was thinking too that I'm sure there's a level of hubris here similar to Jaws, where I don't know that he ever thought he was susceptible to being in danger until it was too late. I think there was something about like, Yes, I know what I'm watching is wrong. Yes, I know I should report it, but it's not gonna hurt me. Right. I'm not in danger just by the act of interacting with it. Right. Until it was too late. And I think it's interesting that you have like the the threat has to be like so serious to stop when like nobody wanted to move into the house. I know. Right? Nobody wanted the even his wife didn't want to be in the house. Like and by the time time they moved it was too late. Yes. That was what sealed the curse. Basic yeah. Yes. Put the nail in the coffin literally. Literally and finalize how the spell or how whatever works because they had to be the family that lived past tense in the house of the last murder. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So kind of on that vein, the film is kind of suggesting that some forces are patient, they wait, they set traps. across generations. So I'm just curious what you think about this idea that it was it wasn't an immediate threat. It had to build, it had to build, and yet it was still a threat. It was still there in the background. It was completely ignored. And that's what made it work. I think that We ignore things that are threatening all the time. Yeah. Right. Like I ate a pack of Oreos today, right? Like I know Oreos and the sugar and all that is not good for me. I know my joints are going to complain from the inflammation. Like it's you know, we do that all the time. And I think like health is a really good example of like the threat is lying in wait and slow. It's it's very slow. As much as I love Oreos, I agree. I I like your metaphor though, because it is one of those things like those Oreos are a cheeseburger, or like this cocktail is not gonna kill me right now. Right. And yeah, it does create a pattern that like slowly builds over time that's not gonna have the best outcomes or creates other possible outcomes. But yeah, I like the idea though that this specific scary movie relies on that slow patience. It is like a slow burn as opposed. To just like an immediate kill. Yes. and I love the twist that it isn't a serial killer thing. It is a darker demonic force that uses this thing you love against you. Like to me that's what makes it such an underrated horror movie. Yeah. It's like the call is literally coming from itself from the least likely suspect. And I still have some questions about like how did these kids get to be so strong? I mean Totally. I had that thought too, like how did that little girl get her four family members up that tree? But police system? She's a smart kid. I I don't know. Yeah. But even even like Ellison when his family got murdered or whatever, like who dragged them all into like the living room? Excellent point. I mean, I don't know if we're thinking that the Bughuul can touch them and interact with them at that point of the scene. You what it could have been since I did watch the second one. Remember when he fell through the attic ceiling? Yeah. And then he goes back and watches the video and he sees the hands on the Yeah, the little kids are pulling him down. And so I wonder if like once you know the child is ready to like murder their family, the kids also come and help. That would make sense. Because then they're also ghosts, so maybe their powers are earth's Yeah. I mean, I just I love it. It's so upsetting. so yeah, speaking of Bagul, I love the fact that he actually like lives inside the images. That's part of the lore, right? Yes. So he actually enters, you give him permission basically to enter through what you're looking at and what you're consuming. Yes. And so I kind of had a two-part question. For the movie, what did you think about that as part of the storyline and like that being kind of part of the again the plot device. And then I think more broadly you could take that question, like, what do you think about the fact that the very thing we're consuming is letting in the worst things into our life? I think it's so I would say the first thing I'm gonna say is like when he had the video or he had the images on his computer, and then he's like looking at like this still of the Bughuul and then the Bughuul like starts to move and looks at him. And looks at him. That was the point where I turned the show off and went to bed. Like I was just like, this is a daytime movie. Not Not tonight. No. Literally. And then because I watched the second one, yeah, one of the things that came to my mind was because in the second one they talk about how like you all you like worship him through the arts. Yes. And you know, whether it was like the music or making of the movie or the watching of the movie and that sort of like and it makes me, you know, if like you're religious, what like what is considered worship? Ooh, I like that question. Yes, a hundred percent. Like what are we worshiping and like you said, letting into our lives because of either what we consume or what we spend our time or our money or whatever. A hundred percent. I like that you connected it to worship because it kind of makes me think like, okay, so let's say he had watched the video, immediately called the police, turned everything over, right? End of story, right? No movie, boo, boring. But that would have been more like he witnessed it. Right. But I love that language of worship. Because he went back to it over and over and over again. And then he recorded it. And he was disturbed by it. Yes. And like literally deteriorating. Yeah. And then printing out the photos of it and having it literally surrounded in space. There you go. Beautifully said. He built an altar to this thing that was destroying him. Yes. And so it makes me think again of like our social media relationships and like what we consume on television and what we read too, right? Like even like I'm still a old fashioned I have to have a tangible book. Yeah. But I do think about that a lot of like what am I consuming? Like what am I putting my time and my energy and my attention to and as we're in spooky season, I consume a bunch of shit. Like I love sicko gross stuff. And I think about like, okay, why am I consuming this? What's my intention? Like how engaged with it am I? And I think your point is correct. Like when you rewatch it, like what does that say about me watching Sinister twenty times? We'll say ten. We'll say ten times over it's being out. and returning to it over and over and over again. Like I think that that's a really good point. What are we worshipping? What are we worshipping? What are we consuming and what are we bringing into our lives? But I do think it's more relevant than ever because I know we're making jokes about it. But like we talk about this as friends, like when you are on the internet like and you think of people on the fringe and you're just consuming and consuming hatred or propaganda, just false information and and you don't ever have an outside voice, like you are worshiping at the altar of everything we're going through. through right now. Like I think you can take a light hearted conversation about a movie and you could be arguing like we're letting in the worst forces by the things that we are almost like the the hatred and racism and all of that. Those are like your your boogeyman. Yes, so to speak. And yeah, we're continuing to worship them, even if it's just from a An onlooker. A hundred percent. Yeah. Right. We're just we're just watching. We're not participating, but we really are. Just by watching. Which is why I don't watch the news. Honestly, I mean I think again, like it comes full circle to like, even though I don't believe those things and I I know that stuff is again propaganda, fake information, racism, transphobia, whatever, I have to limit how much of it I consume because it's not good for me. Yeah. Like I'm not gonna consume it and suddenly change my mind. I just don't want it in my brain. Yeah. I don't want the hatred. I don't want the nastiness. I don't want that danger. So I just go back to horror movies. But yeah, no, I love, love, love that language of like his repetitive interaction with it is the worshiping and that's like how we're bringing their own demise forward with the whole. Like it's deep in a way. I just love, love, love. so with the kids The children in the film are not taken through violence but through seduction. Mm. So like I was talking about before, like these scenarios, at least in this family, are created where she's kind of lonely. they're have all this change, all this anxiety in the house. It makes her prime to me, like seduced by this spirit. And in the movie the kids are sh shown something that they're interested in, right? And then like they follow it and then they disappear. They're taken. Right. They're taken to his realm or whatever. So again, it's that like slow, almost imperceptible change that's happening over time. and then you look up and it's over. Yeah. So I kind of thought about that too, like It's probably like how did I get here? Yes. Like, what did you think about that fact that part of it's the plot device of the movie, right? Like we're not focused on her, we're focused on him. So even as the viewer, she's not our primary character to be noticing. Right. But if you think about like just the concept even in our own lives, like we could be maybe so hyper focused on something that we're missing something and all of a sudden you look up and it's on or work on. 'Cause even when I first started watching the film, one of the first like jump scares was when the sun was in the box. god. It's still so scary. I was gonna Google like do night terrors really show up that way where you're like contorted and yeah in a shipping block. That part gets me every time. And so like I thought that maybe like you know, if it wasn't a serial killer, like maybe it has something to do with the sun. Yes. Right? And so again it's sort of like the look over here not over here aspect of the film where like you really don't see her her coming until literally the very end. Yes. And I do remember thinking that too, that if it wasn't an external family member, maybe the kid was just crazy. Like I was thinking, like, and maybe that's a gender thing. He's like a young boy, and there's other movies where like the son is the problem. Right. And also great movies around that. But like I think definitely was taking that bait that either, yeah, he's possessed or he's a serial killer, a sociopath, because he's also the one that's acting out. Yeah. Right? Like he gets in trouble with school. And there's the whole conversation about him drawing the hanged kids or the family on the whiteboard as well. Where did he get those images from? I think the argument was that Ellison never remembered to lock his office. But did he actually go in the office and see the images or was it just like showing up because the house is haunted? Or maybe in his night terrors because he might have been susceptible to because he was a child. Yeah. That's a good question. I always Assumed it was about Ellison not protecting them. Mm-hmm. Because he would get so caught up in his work, and this had happened in their previous houses, and they have that conversation at dinner. I always just read it as it only would take one time for both of them to walk in there, see everything, and then make sense of it in their own way. Gotcha. So, like with him, it was the externalizing. But I thought that was very clever too, though, because we get dialogue about him acting out at school, he's having the night terrors that are increasingly getting worse. Outside in the bush is terrifying. And all the attention is going on to him. Right. Yeah. And I thought that was brilliant because she just seems quiet and kind of like she entertains herself. It's interesting. Find out that she's being groomed. Yeah. Well and it's like I think about like families that have multiple kids and you because I was probably that child. The quiet one. The quiet one that like got no attention, you know, because my brothers were always acting out and you know I just went off on the side and just My thing. So yeah, it's super dangerous though. You know, there are real live bagoes out there. That's the scariest part, is like I was using terms like seduction and grooming a little bit intentionally because here I go trying to make it deep. But I do think there's some metaphor in the story around the fact that like he's distract dad's distracted, brother's acting out, mom is kind of frantic, trying to keep it together, and the one who's fine. Right is the one we don't check in on. Yeah. And I think about that a lot. And that typically makes kids susceptible to an adult coming around who gives them attention, who has nefarious plans for them. Yeah. And I thought that it was interesting, at least in the first movie, that they chose it to be the daughter. Mm-hmm. Like I really had that thought that she's very sweet and we see her as very innocent and then she is the one who does the most terrible thing because she's basically chosen or been chosen to go with like the demon family. Right. And be her real family. And everyone's just like, she's fine. Yeah. She's handling it. You know, it's your son you should be worried about. And I I think that I wonder if that was an accident. It feels like it has some underlying meaning in the writing. Absolutely. That nobody checked on Ashley and Ashley was up to no good. What else you got? I did write down where you spend your money and your time, like that's your priority. Go kinda going back to like when you know, the daughter brings him the coffee and he just kinda like shuts the door. So like his family is literally in the house. And he's alone. And he's in his office. You have all day while they're away at school or whatever. And like he did not do he didn't spend any time with them at all. No. Like I don't recall them other than like maybe a scene or two where he like put her to bed. In the beginning. beginning, exactly. That's it. Yeah, because there's a scene where his wife comes in and says she's putting them to bed and he says, Give them a kiss for me and goes back to his computer and then she says something else and is like, Are you staying in here? And he's like, Yeah and sh then she's like, Don't forget to close the door and like slams the door. Yeah. So like it's kind of being implied or reiterated that when he has the opportunity, he's choosing not to. Yeah, one of the things I wrote down, was he said, I I just want you here with me is what he said to his wife. It was like it's all about him. A hundred percent. You know? Like he was so selfish. I also I think at one point thought that the deputy did it apparently. The deputy so and so deputy so and so yes. Well and I think kind of going back to our very beginning of the conversation, I think that Ellison deludes himself that he's doing it for them. Mm-hmm. So When he's saying, like, I just want you here with me, and I just want you to support me, it's like because this is for all of us, right? Even though she's repeatedly saying that we don't want this, like, stop including us in this way. This is not the way we want to be included. This isn't what we're looking for. No. and I think that's powerful too, that he like can't or won't hear the distinction. Yeah. another thing I wrote down was home security system. this person knows how to climb. trees. And so this was when he was in the attic. Yes. And, you know, he like heard the sounds or whatever. And, you know, again, going back to like the original opening scene, clearly they don't somebody knows how to climb trees. I know. So, you know, you can have all your doors locked on the first floor, but yeah, someone can get into the attic. A hundred percent. Like I said, stay out of the attic. Nothing good happens in the attic. It best case scenario you fall through the ceiling. I've done it. It's terrifying. I was that kid that was like, I'm gonna hang out in the attic and then you step on the wrong thing and you fall right through. my goodness. Yeah, I can't tell you how many times I wrote down selfish and ego in my notes. Like it comes up several several times. Yeah, he's blinded. He's literally just like a dog with a bone. Like this is the only thing I can see. Okay, I wrote down the ghosts. yeah. Wow. She can't see them, but it's we see them, I think, to start putting the story together. Right, but like why were they like what were they were they like playing a game or like they were just kind of like running around the house? So my take was that it was like I don't know if this is correct at all, but I pictured as we see them as they were when they were alive. It's almost like they're in Purgatory. Okay. So like they're wearing the same clothes. Right. And it's almost like they're doing the same thing. So like I pictured them just kind of doing what they were doing when they were alive. Like the girl who's on the table. Yeah. I think she's just playing. Like probably the last few things she did before the gold took her. Okay. Because the kid in the swim trunks is still in his swim trunks. Right. Right. And then the girl in the rain jacket is still in the rain jacket. And she's just like running around like a little kid. So I kind of always read it as their stuck. Okay. at least in the state that they were in before they died. Or he took them, or I guess however you want to look at it. Same. I'm assuming they're dead. I think this must have been the wife who said that. Is there anything you won't do for your book? Yes. Great lines. And the answer is no. She nailed it. The answer was no. Including die. Yes. Die for your book. Yes. So, kind of going back to his wife, she asks him, asks him directly and repeatedly to be honest with her, and he just can't do it. So, what do you think about the idea that people are willing to take that risk and pay the price of dishonesty over the possibility of real honesty? And like, I don't know what whatever worst-case scenario they think is gonna happen. I find it interesting that like it's almost like to him, he justifies. His dishonesty because he was still because he wasn't lying. Like when she asked, Did we move down the street from the house? He's like, No, which is 100% true. Yes. And 100% not transparent. I love that distinction. Yes. Like he knows what she's asking, and he's being deceitful with true statements. Beautiful, right? 100%, yeah. And like again, going back to just like being able to. justify his shitty behavior. Yes. And so it's his it's that ego. And he is literally like he does not care and he hurts the people that he loves. And it's almost like it's like it's not hurtful to them if it's gonna turn into something good. Right. Like the ends justify the means. Yes. It's like the ultimate extreme version of that. Like okay so our son's having night terrors. Okay, so our daughter's lonely. Okay, so you're mad that I wasn't transparent about this house. That won't matter at all when I'm back to the level of being on the Tonight Show and we have a bestseller underneath us and we have all this money and this fame. It's like none of it matters if it turns out okay. Right. Which is so scary. And it's like he's not even open to the idea that the previous bestseller might have just been like you just stumbled upon a good story. Yeah. Right? Like maybe you're not even that good. That's true, too. You know what I mean? You just happen to find a really good story and you got lucky. The end. Yeah. I think that would crush his identity. Of course. He would be nothing if it was a fluke. You gotta chase that second coming, right? Well, and it's like he doesn't define himself by like any like real intrinsic qualities that he has, whether it's you know, it's really just about that external success of the book. It's not about being you know maybe he's really smart or maybe he's really creative or you know and like all of those things being enough it's like no I have to have this thing in order for me to feel worthy. Well and I think you just nailed it too because there's a line in the end right before Ashley kills him where she says don't worry daddy I'll make you famous again and so I think you really nailed it because again it wasn't about creativity or about the art for It wasn't like writing is my passion. Right. It was being famous is my passion or trying to get to that place. Especially when he's like watching back his old interviews and all of that. And yeah, just like living in the past when like you have your family right there with you. Right. You have this right now. And I think his wife does say at some point like your legacy is yeah your children and like what we build and he like basically poo-poos it and is stuck. And the fact that the daughter believes that all he wants is to be famous, which is that's really what that's the only thing he's been communicating through his actions. Yeah, you're totally right. Like she's growing up seeing him desperate for this one thing. Idolizing fame. Yes. And totally diminishing and writing off anything in the here and now. Yeah. Which is why I just really think there's an untapped part of this. If there's ever gonna be a sinister three, I think the key needs to be the adults. And I think the key needs to be that in a family where one or both parents is not available for insert reason, those are the kids that Bagul finds. Mm-hmm. That there's something more about these gaping holes in this care caretaker, parental figure, whoever it is, that makes Bagul pick that family. Yeah. I feel like there's a really untapped part of that that would be really interesting. But I would say isn't it almost like happenstance because the families are picked or are they? I don't know, because they moved into the house, or are they picked because they moved into the house and they watched the video. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. I don't know. It's like there almost wasn't enough research and like investigation in this one because like I kept wanting to know more about like you said, the other families and you know, some of the details around that. got a little bit more in the second one. Yeah. But yeah, I it kinda left me w I I like like the procedural crime type ones and I really wanted them to go more into detail on like the history. Yeah. I mean it makes me wonder if there had been other families where the curse just didn't happen because the time frame was so long. Mm-hmm. Right. Like I think that very first one was like sixty something. Yeah. And then it wasn't till later in the seventies. And then it was the eighties, early nineties and then This is 2012, I think. Yeah. So it makes me wonder like it's almost like the everything has to line up. Right. Yes. At the right time in the right place. So I bet if they had moved into that house, not watched the movies, right? Or maybe he watched the one, called the police and they left, it would have waited for the next family that was more susceptible. Yes. So I I think there's a little implication that you have to partake. Like you have to take what's being offered. Yeah. For Google to gain access to your kid. my god. That part's the craziest is like it's not only putting himself in jeopardy, he's literally offering up his child to a demon by being so completely checked out. Yeah. That's what makes it so scary to me. man. let's see. so many good things. So kind of jumping to the ending, I guess just generally we kind of touched on a little bit that how did you feel at the moment you realize like, fuck, it's actually the daughter. So I definitely knew that it was like the children killing the parents when he saw like the lid you were early then. Yeah. When you saw the lid and it was like the the images, the little drawings and it was like, you know, Mr. Boogie is over here. Yes. And then it had like someone else like in the frame and I was like, it's the kids. Wow. I'm so impressed. I did not get it at all. So I I knew kind of early. I just didn't know which kid. That's a good point. And the other thing was I was hoping, so like the surprise for me was the fact that when you move, that's what seals the deal. Yes. Because, you know, I wrote GTFO, it took him long enough to get out of the house. But clearly that was the wrong thing to do. Right. So it's like I was kind of relieved when he left. yeah, so sure. And I was like, okay, maybe this one's gonna like A happy ending or something like that. Nope, not at all. No, it gets really dark and then it ends. Yeah, because then it's like, now the box is in the old house. Yes. And yeah, it's like he tries to destroy it, but again, too late. Way too late. Too late. Yeah. I don't quite remember as well because I've seen it so many times. I just remember being absolutely shocked. I don't know what I thought was going to be the ending. I I think I more was thinking it was purely a ghost story. Like the ghost kids were gonna kill them. Okay. More than I realized it took a kid from every family until it was like right in front of my face. Like I think it took him getting those last ending clips and putting them together and then playing the ends where you see like the little girl climbing down the tree, and then you see the kids sitting beside the pool. I think I had to be spoon-fed, like each kid from each family, not just like demon kids that have been wreck wreaking havoc on these families. Well and because they talked about how like, you know, the daughter from the previous family had like just disappeared. Yeah. Yeah. And so like that was one of those little breadcrumbs that kind of resume to like, okay, it's it's the kids that are killing. You nailed it. I just remember I was like, this is perfect. Yeah. And he's like drinking the coffee and then he sees the napkin that says Goodnight Daddy. Yeah. She got the poison from? Bagul. Yeah, I guess so. Because it was like glowing green in the bottom of the mug. see that part. It was like it looked like almost radioactive material. I swear he must have given it to her or like it's magic. Right. Because I also think that too like it's gotta be some type of sedative that's so strong for these the entire family. Yes. So yeah. God chopping her brother in pieces is just that was the crazy part when I saw the picture that she drew like does she even have the strength to chop someone in half? She is Bogolstra I guess so. It's like do you start like with the head or do you start with the legs? Like, do you want them to suffer or do you just want it to be brutal? The way it's framed with Ethan Hawke when he's on his side and the camera's on his side. Yeah. It comes into the frame like she's cut his head off. Okay. Yeah. I mean and also then she like collects the blood for her artwork is just yeah. Takes it full circle to her drawings on the wall and she's painting the hallways with her families. Yeah, that's crazy. Banana pants. Yeah. So with that, the ending offers no redemption, no last minute save, no wisdom. No really learn anything. So I was kind of curious, like, how did you feel about the way they chose to end it? Did it feel more kind of like nihilistic, or did it maybe just feel more honest? I would say honest, and I think that's also what led me to seek out Sinister 2 because I was like I need more information. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, I think I also just appreciate a movie that goes there. Mm-hmm. Like to me it was really unrelenting. Yes. And it's actually not very gory. Like you don't see the gore, which I appreciated. It's just more disturbing to think about how these kids are killing their family. And the way that some of them died. my god. The Mawnmower to me has got to be. That was the worst. So brutal. And so I I kinda liked that it seemed for the science fiction aspect of it the most realistic ending you could have. Mm-hmm. Was just like, you fucked up. Yeah. He's already in your family, the curse is already set, you don't get a happy ending. You're too late. You should have listened weeks or days ago. I don't know how much time passes in this movie. I don't know. But yeah. That would actually be interesting too, is I wonder how long they were even there. It couldn't have been long because I think even some of the The like the previous family. They had made mention of them not like being there long or something like that. Yeah, I was kind of thinking like a couple weeks. Yeah. Maybe I don't think it would have been. Eight to ten days. It's crazy. okay, so I love this fact, and I actually had to go back and look it up because I couldn't remember, but I don't know if you read about this too, but Sinister was actually tested in a scientific study and it was measured as one of the scariest films ever made based on heart rate data. Really? Yes. So I found the original study and they had like 50 adults watch. When was it done? It was done right after this movie. So like 2015, 16. and they had 50 adults watch around a hundred and twenty hours of horror movies. I don't know what the like time frame was because that's a lot of scary movies. But they were wearing a heart rate monitor, and I guess their heart rates were actually pretty steady A lot of them out of the 120 hours or whatever, and they narrowed it down to like the top five scariest movies of all time based on how much your heart went up. And Sinister was number one. Interesting. Yes. That it had the highest like steady state escalation, and it was like a 20% increase in heart rate over the course of the film. The other cool fact I got from that was that Insidious won number one for the biggest jump scare based on Spike. I can believe. And I'm pretty sure we all know the exact scene. I don't r I know I've seen Insidious. I can picture it in but I can't I don't remember it. You probably blacked out. I remember Insidious being 'cause that was the one with like the adopted child or the foster child, is that right? No, he's their son, but he like goes into a coma and then they tell them like the house is haunted, so you have to move, and then they realize it's not the house, it's the kid. Okay. Maybe I'm thinking of another one. where a woman she brings like a foster child or whatever into her house. I don't know. Anyway. that one and like the original ring like yeah scare the crap out of me. And you wait the whole movie to see her come out of the T V the first one. Like it is very upsetting. Yeah, you think it's over and then it's not. Yeah. but I just love that that little piece of data of like studying all those adults over all those movies for all those hours. Sinister, at least at the time, had the highest steady rate heart increase. I can see that because it does like it's just dreadful. Like definition. Like throughout the whole thing it does build. It's so unsettling. Yeah. And this time too, it stood out to me like the scorpion, the snake and the dog. Mm-hmm. I had never really given that much thought. Okay. And then I realized in this viewing that those are like, what would be the word? Like my God, folklore of omens and signs of something bad coming. So they're like harbingers of death. Yeah. So he kills a scorpion in the attic first. I do remember the dog. Yes. And then he finds the snake snake in the attic. That's how finds the box. And then there's the dog in the backyard out of nowhere. Which is growing at the kids. Yes, exactly. And so this time I caught for the first time that the professor he's working with that last conversation they have, he sends him those images. And there's a scorpion and one snake and one and a dog and one. Yes. And that those are ancient texts about the rule. So that was basically by the time the dog came it was too late. Gotcha. That was the final nail in the coffin. That was when the kids showed Yep. Yeah. When the ghost started being in the house, that was the final harbinger of death. They'd waited too long. He had already latched on to Ashley. That's so crazy. Because it's like basically You had time. for sure. And yeah. Wow. You ignored all the signs. Yeah. Yeah. it's so good. I love it so much. Is there anything you think you would have understood differently if you'd seen this at a different time in your life? Or your relationship to horror or anything? I don't think so. Other I think the only thing is like watching it for the purpose of the podcast. Yeah. Makes me think harder about the movie versus like just watching it. Yeah. I don't go and do like all the research, but it does make me like think about, you know, just everything. I think you're a natural. Both times now you have brought up something that has like blown my mind and I've seen no movie more than I've seen Jaws. And I remember you stumped me for Jaws too, so or Jaws also. So I think you're a natural for taking on the Cinephile hat. You gotta start introducing yourself differently. You are almost a Cinephile graduate. You're in grad school. Because you do a great job of watching it and like just the way you think and ask questions, you're like right on to it. I love it. You always catch something I haven't caught. Were there any specific scenes that maybe made you pause, not just because it was scary, but it like hit differently or surprised you or made you think? I'm trying to think. One of the things that's jumping out to me is just like his interactions with the sheriff that I thought were interesting. Because like even when the sheriff first of all, the fact that the sheriff showed up on moving day, I thought was interesting. It was almost like he was trying to like scare him off. Yes. Which is similar to Jaws. Heed the warning. Right. And so I thought that that was really interesting. And then I try to remember when they got pulled over, right, like he was leaving and like the sheriff let him off with just like a warning 'cause it was like glad he was leaving and right. You know, it almost made it secause at first I thought he was just gonna like get a ticket or like take him in or something like that. And so you almost get this like sense of relief because Yes, they're leaving. He doesn't get you think it's done. Yes. Yeah. So I read the police stuff from again, I think, trying to trick us and keep it more in the procedural vein that he has the reputation of cracking a case that the cops couldn't crack. Right. So it makes the cops look bad. So to me, we were supposed to be taking that bait of like this is just a turf war. This is gonna be more a procedural, scary movie. It's a physical person who's a serial killer. Or, you know, the cops don't want it to be pointed out that they missed some piece of evidence or they didn't do their job. I think it was kind of fluff and then relevant only in terms of the fact that I think again there's a little hubris with Ellison of just like, I'm so smart, I'm gonna figure out the thing that no one else could figure out to my own demise. Yeah. And he didn't figure it out until literally his head was about to be chopped off. And then it's like, it all makes sense. Maybe he figured it out who's watching the clips before she cut his head off, but there's that moment where he's like, the kids aren't missing or something like clicks for him. My gosh, amazing. It was a good movie. Let's see. Last couple ones I think that's kind of it. I always like to end with one week from now what image or moment do you think will live red free in your head? Probably the one where the still image of the boogeyman like comes alive. When he turns slowly to look at that and then turns back. That got me. It's all types of terrifying. Yeah. So one thing that got me this time, I guess 'cause it's been maybe a year or two since I last watched it, is the final final jump scare. Which was So at the very, very end of the movie, after the little girl has killed everybody and she's like painted the hallways with blood, there's like a really drawn out scene where the camera's panning down the hall and like showing all of her blood drawings. And then there's the little kids and then it like goes like it's done and then it's Bughuul's face really quick. my god, I am a sucker. I mean I was like Like out of my skin jumping. That reminds me of like back in the day when people used to send those like videos around or whatever, and you're like watching the video and it's like some like scary face jumps in front of you. This is how we used to torment each other before social media. You'd send in like a fucking email and not know that it was gonna be some terrifying face. Maybe we've all been gotten by the Bughuul already and we don't know from the old things that we used to send each other. It's freaking awful. so I love it. Any last thoughts now that you've entered the world of Sinister and Conquered number two? I mean if they do do a third one, I would definitely watch it. I'm for sure. I'd be super curious because even after watching the second one, I was like, there must be so many houses. Yes. You know what I mean? That he just keeps like infecting. my god. It literally is like a virus. And you have you know, deputy so and so out here trying to burn all the houses down. I know, to break the curse. Yeah. I thought it was so clever. It's kind of a little bit it's much older obviously, but smile, if you ever saw Smile, I highly recommend that one. Okay. But it gets into that too where the lore is almost endless. So smile one and two, five stars can't recommend it enough. Okay. And I just read maybe a week ago that they're finely green lighting Smile Three. Okay. Which could be amazing. If they don't mess it up because one and two are epic. But it has that same idea where like it gets passed, and so how do you ever stop it? Yeah. Like it opens up a lot of doors. Okay. But I would love a Sinister Three. After all these years, make one for us. one last thing I was gonna ask was which death do you think was the most horrible? It happened. The lawnmower one just got me for sure. It's also shot so well. Yeah. Like you can sense this is gonna get bad. Yeah. And it's just like the lawnmower and the rain and then it also has that screeching sound like right as it runs over something. Yeah, the Lawnmower one was bad. It's brutal. Like I thought that the hanging one was bad because it was maybe because it was the first one. And it's that and it's slow. And then like the drowning one, I mean you don't really it's still horrific. I'm trying to remember what was the other the fire and the car. We were alive. Yeah, that one was pretty bad. But I still think the lawnmower was the worst. I think the lawnmower, too, even more than being chopped up with an axe. Like I feel like you'll die really fast. Yeah. But the lawnmower, especially because I mean, I don't know. I think maybe just the way it was shot, the lawnmower is really effective in making you jump and also making your brain fill in the gaps of like how terrible that would be. Yes. I love that you went on this journey with me. Just the the the metamorph. thinking about what we're talking about is so wild. But welcome to my brain when it comes to dissecting. Excellent. I think well done horror, but yeah. Alright, well, I'm so happy you came back. Our OG, I feel so. Yes, inviting me. Yes, we are officially in spooky season. October, we are here. I'm loving re-watching my favorite scary movies and having my friends come along. Hopefully, you enjoyed this episode. If you haven't already, please like and subscribe, refer, recommend to a friend. you can find us on Scene Interpretation Pod on IG. You can find me on Dr. Sophia Murphy on IG, on YouTube, Spotify, Apple. Wherever you get your pods, come hang out. Really hope you enjoyed it. And you know what? Go scare yourself. Scary enough outside. Watch a scary movie in the comfort of your own home. I think that's the kind of terror we can all get on board with. Don't watch the news. There's nothing good happening. Spend time with your friends. Alright. Till next time. Bye.