Scene Interpretation: Alright, welcome back to another episode of Scene Interpretation. I am Dr. Sophia Murphy. I am a licensed therapist here in Arizona. And if you've been listening to any of our previous episodes, you already know that I love movies, ⁓ self-identify as a cinephile, and am having the best time of my life getting to hang out with some amazing people and talk about movies. So today I have one of my favorite people on earth as my guest, ⁓ a dear friend who I also am fortunate. Enough to get to work with and bother like six to seven days a week, which is great. ⁓ so today I'm hanging out with Josh if you want to introduce yourself. Hello, everybody. ⁓ I'm Josh Mariner. ⁓ first I would like to say I'm a father, husband, and son before I get into my occupation. ⁓ but I am the director of player engagement for the Arizona Cardinals. But as we're on this podcast today, all opinions and things that I say are my own. Nice. But at the same time, I am very excited for. today. I I think we ⁓ and the world can get a lot from this as well. Yeah, let's get into it though. I guess so kind of a reminder for everybody who's listening, this has been so fun because I I've been challenging my friends to pick a movie that is considered a classic that you haven't seen or that people would be really surprised that you haven't seen. And I must have thrown over twenty movies at you, so we had a lot to choose from and I may drag you back on here again because I just want to hear your thoughts on all of the things that I love. today we're we're going a little deeper than some of our silly episodes. we've had so far, we're gonna be dissecting the Shaw Shank Redemption. ⁓ I will come out and say that I think this is a masterpiece. ⁓ I distinctly remember watching this in school, which is interesting that we were allowed to watch this in school. And I believe it was probably because we had a substitute teacher and we needed a movie to fill the time. And even without commercials, it's a strong two and a half hours. And so I remember sitting in the dark watching this movie with all my classmates. We were probably in high school and trying to choke back tears and then just not being able To stop myself from the straight on ugly sobs. ⁓ and even after all this time and seeing it so many times, balled my eyes out during the rewatch. Dog comes over, lays on my chest, snuggles up, lets me hug him, licks away my tears. But wow, I just think this is a gut punch of a movie in the best way possible. So I'm curious, kind of just your initial takeaways ⁓ emotionally, what were you left feeling at the end? And there's no right answers. Yeah, honestly, I left inspired. Okay. I'll be real with you. That movie it we we already said that it's deep, but it's it's gut-wrenching. It's why? Like why does this happen to him? Yes. Right? and then also you want to kind of like reason with him, like, even though he was innocent, it's like if you did do it, we kinda could understand. Yeah. Like it's they call it a ⁓ act of rage or ⁓ what is it? Crime of passion. A crime of passion. Yeah, right? Yeah. ⁓ but Honestly, it's like he maintained who he was from start to finish. Absolutely. And I think that's why I said that's so inspiring. Yep. So inspire. Mr. Andy Dufresne. I ⁓ I love it. ⁓ So that it's ⁓ seen one of the greatest movies ever made, not just to me, but pretty cinematically renowned. I'm curious how that reputation maybe affected you going into it. How much you feel like maybe you were grading it or expecting expecting it to lead a certain way or land a certain way versus just presently experiencing it. I mean to be real, it was when I first watched the trailer, I was like, ⁓ I definitely understand why I didn't see this movie But that's just me, my upbringing, right? Like ⁓ And so it it it took me a while to say, even to text you and say, all right, this is the movie that I'm watching. I kept I honestly watched the trailer. I like, I'm not about to waste my time with this. Okay. Say more about that. I'm curious. I think the trailer, it just be to be real as a a true as a African American male, ⁓ It's not something that I was resonating with. ⁓ like it's not where it's witty, gutty, it was deep heartfelt. And for me, like the only show or movie that I've seen that was something similar with a cast that did not look like me was like Prison Break. Sure. But Prison Break had characters in it that I had saw in other shows that made me want to watch the show. ⁓ and then it had a lot more minorities in it. Like watching this trailer, it was one true minority in this that that that you could tell by skin tone. Maybe somebody else was pa white pat. But other than that, it was one that she saw mainly in the movie. And so ⁓ That's just not my upbringing. But at the same time, to be real, ⁓ even though it's not my upbringing, it was a great movie. Yeah. It's ⁓ and so I think once I actually went and asked around. Yeah. Asked a few of the people that you know that we work with that were outside of work, just about you know, going through movies list and then it it kept coming up like, ⁓ my god, you haven't seen Shaw Shang? ⁓ my god, you haven't seen Shaw Shang? And I'm like, I guess I need to see Shaw Shang and even though I did not want to watch it, and it was one of those things where it's Like Josh, try give something give something to try. Try something new. Like get outside of what you've been exposed to and your your mind can be awakened in a good way. So ⁓ I left deeply inspired after not wanting to watch it and glad I did, very glad I did, very glad I did. Well, and I think you make such a valid point too, is that I think the biggest issue with some of these classic movies is they're just were not black leads or very ⁓ minority heaven heavy. The excuse me movies in general. Yeah. And so that was kind of all there was, especially when it became like contenders for the Oscars and the movies that got all the buzz is everybody looked alike. And you're not wrong. And especially in the early 90s, mid 90s, there weren't really any other movies to compete with that. And so I think probably just with our age difference too, and like growing up in different areas, I just watched the movies that were nominated for Oscars. You know, like I that was a huge part of growing up was prepping for the Oscars. Oscars and trying to catch up and watch all the movies that I hadn't seen. ⁓ and again, seeing this at school was just a wild one-off. But I think part of what I loved in re-watching it was that even though Morgan Freeman is the only that we can tell ⁓ main star of color, he's also the one that got nominated for an Oscar. Wow. Which is groundbreaking for back then, and I think speaks to what he brought to this role and how he and Andy have such a different life and end up in In the same place and what it says about their 20 plus year friendship and what they go through. ⁓ but I I appreciate your honesty. I mean, there just weren't really any can I add to that though, too? It's like, all right, so just part of it is is like because it was actually a movie that came out, ⁓ I can't remember, but it was around either before I was born or I was maybe two, three years old. Yeah, you were very, very small. Very, very small. So, like, that's not like when I get to the mid 2000s, like when that's not a movie I like, ⁓ you got. Gotta go watch, right? Like cause as a kid it's new things that are coming out. Right. ⁓ at the same time that level of ⁓ all the things that go into the movie is not necessarily for a ten year old. No. So by the time I get to a place of like being able to watch movies like this, to be real, if we can talk about where society was going, Blockbuster stopped being almost became a thing. Yeah, you missed out. Missed out like and it's not like it was I watched Direct D T V, but it wasn't always on the HBOs or or the Cinemaxes where we now have those are streaming channels, right? A hundred percent. And so I think that's part of why I didn't see it 'cause it's not if we I'm looking back at my childhood and we may have had out of the fifty two weeks in a year, we may have went to Blockbuster half of those. Yeah. And those were for sometimes repeat movies or movies that just got released that finally came out. So I like I got I I do believe that I got a lot of catching up to do. Yeah, I I got a lot of I got a lot of catching up to do. I will I know Amazon's crazy, we're not gonna get into that, but like I appreciate Amazon Prime now because it reminds me of the days where we had Blockbuster, where you can go and find a catalog of movies. And go watch them whether you didn't know anything about them or not. And so that's why I said this movie left me inspired because it's like at 31 years old, like it's crazy to say that you can still experience new things even though they're old. I absolutely agree. And I think because it's also set in the forties, it feels a little bit more timeless. Like we're not up against the cars looking old, the phones looking old in a way that the movie is just dated. It is dated on purpose to tell a story about a moment in time, which I think ends up making Making it timeless. But one thing I wanted to add too was I do remember being at Blockbuster and seeing the cover of this movie. It's incredibly famous. Well, there's different covers. There's one with Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman's face, but there's the famous shot of him in the rain looking up. And because it's a Stephen King book adapted into a movie, prior to watching it at school, I thought it was going to be terrifying and a horror movie. And so I remember not watching it right away when it was new podcast. partially 'cause I was even young then to be I think watching some of this heavier content. It just scared me because I knew Stephen King from it and ⁓ I knew Stephen King from The Shining. And so this to me was also my first introduction to what I consider Stephen King's library where it's deeply emotional. It's still a horror movie in my opinion, 'cause it's about the horrors of man. Mm-hmm. And it's not horror in the way that it would give me nightmares like the clown from it did. But not seeing it in your, you know, ⁓ sphere all the time like going to blockbuster all the time. It would have been way back in the classic section. You know, so I think you make a really good point. It just wasn't gonna be on your radar. Maybe it was on regular cable sometimes, again with commercials for three and a half hours long. But you you really nailed it though that like you kind of hit that age where you'd be watching these movies when this would have been out of your radar. Yeah. So it's neat though that we got to put it on your radar and have it be such a pleasant surprise. So I guess starting To get into some of these first impressions. ⁓ walk me through the moment that you realized Andy wasn't going to break, no matter what they did to him. What do you remember feeling? And maybe how did your body react? Nah, I think honestly, the first part, I thought he was gonna break. I didn't get to a place where I mean, honestly, when the shower scene first, and he was like, ⁓ I like that. You're gonna be he's a tough one, makes it hard, right? Yeah, that guy gives me nightmares. And that first one I was literally watching, I wasn't sure what he was asking. Yeah, to be real with you, like it. seen even as the way that way they were taking showers, it was normal and I thought that he was trying to have ⁓ join a gang. Mm to be real. Like the and it it was they did have their version of a gang, right? But like it in like I said, the movies that I've seen when it comes to prison movies, it's legit like, are you joining certain games based off of your skin tone, based off of your religion. Absolutely and then that's where it's like, well you need to find protection. So that's where my mind went. Sure. It was not going to a place where, ⁓ they set him up to do that. Yeah. It's And I mean to really call it like what it is is to really t sexually assault and rape him. Absolutely. Which is crazy because it's like and yet somehow he fought and kept fighting and just in and no matter what I think once I saw that, I wasn't sure and it was like, Yeah I had to go back and I watched it the second time to be real, that's when I fully like was able to process what was going on. Yep. And so because it never showed it. Well and that's something I really appreciated in the rewatch. Yeah. Was that I feel all the visceral feelings of the empathy for him and the fear he must have been feeling to know that he could only fight so much. Yeah. And the way that they layer it with Red's narration throughout the entire movie I think is also what makes it a ma a masterpiece is you don't have to see every To feel everything. And I I wish I had written down the line, but Red's line is something to the effect of like, I wish I could tell you that Andy fought them off and basically everything was okay. But this is Shawshank, and there's very few happy endings in Shawshank. And that it would go on like this for a while, where every once in a while Andy would have some new bruises, every once in while he would kind of be missing, and he never stopped fighting. And even that was pretty early in the movie, I think says a lot about his fortitude. Of what he can change, what he can't change, and the fact that he doesn't change through either of those. Yeah. And I think one thing I saw though is that his level of wit and intellect. Yes. Without having to be like a know-it-all guy. Yes. He knew he first of all from day one, he knew he shouldn't have been there. Absolutely. But he never acted like he was better there. Absolutely. And that's the craziest piece where you can see people like the first guy who, I'm not supposed to be here, I'm not supposed to be in here. So terrified that like he lost all courage and then that's where you see the corrupt system and they beat that terrified guy Andy the neck is sweet. I they say send him to the infirmary. I thought he'll So when they're at breakfast and they're talking about the cigarettes that they bet on ⁓ and the one character who has the stutter which I'm gonna go blank now basically asks the guy who works in the infirmary, you know, how is he doing? And basically what he says is the doctor was already gone for the night. So by the time they brought Him into the infirmary, he bled out. So by the time the doctor came in the morning, there was nothing they could do. So the cops kill him, the guards kill him that first night. They beat him to death. Yeah, that's crazy. And it's like I think Andy seeing that hearing that it's like, well, you could crack, but he chose not, he didn't. Right. ⁓ and I think when I was going back to like the wit piece, it's like when given the opportunity, he was prepared to hop on it. Yes. And so when they said, Hey, how do we we we're gonna need some people to to now ⁓ fix the roof up. Yes. He and his team found a way to get on the roof. Yes. And I think the part that I finally saw that like Andy wasn't gonna give up is when they're literally mopping the tar on the top of it. And as he's doing it, he's still working and then he's listening. Yes. Listening and then he's like I know who that guard is. That guard is the same guard that now I know killed my inmate first night and know what he's capable of and say you know what I am going to take a leap of faith. And have courage and say, I'ma find a way to help solve it the problem that he's talking about. Yep. And not to solve it for me, but to solve it for all other people. Yes. So it's crazy because once he does that, that's when I said, ⁓ he's different. Not in a way because he does that. He's literally about to get thrown off the top of a building. And I'm where are the ledges at? I'm also that's a question I had to ask. I'm like, I think had no ledges. I'm like, okay, that's. So But I'm like thinking that he's like as he's being held off, he's still talking through it and able to have some level of resolve and almost a level of like calmness. Well I know I'm like, no, like I I can fix you, fix what you got going on. Like I'm trying, do you trust your wife? And to ask that question is like, what do you mean? And with everything going on, is like you're a wife killer. Right. That's what everybody sees as what everybody and everybody sees him as that, but yet he still goes beyond that. And I thought that's where the like when I say true courage, what's your just on some wit like he know what people see him and thinks of him already and yet he decided to do that in a way that he detailed it out and then the best part about it is is that he was like I what I want is for three beers apiece for the rest of the crew right and then it's like ⁓ great like he's gonna get beers too and he wants beer and then come to find out he's sitting on that side of it and was like ⁓ I gave up drinking years ago. Yep. So he asked for something that wasn't even for him right while being in that predicament. And I think it it speaks to a deeper psychology In his character, which never really gets explored in the movie, but really stands out to me, is I think he also is just naturally good at reading people. Yes. So there's this piece of he's willing to take his the risk of basically being thrown off the roof because he sees the psychology of how this place operates. And so he he basically is playing this insanely long chess game with all the people in the prison that he can see how they operate, he can see their hubris, he can see their narcissism, he can see their sociopathy. For some of them, and he's able to tiptoe around the lines and maneuver of I know that you would rather not pay the government this money than you would throw me off the roof. I'm willing to take that bet. Yeah. Because you are so corrupt that even though you work for the man, you don't want to pay the man, right? So obviously, I am going to start to sow these little seeds of my intellect and my wit, also making me trustworthy that I'm going to figure out how the system works and I'm. I'm going to help everyone as much as I can in the process. And there's another line in there too where Red says, you know, maybe he did it to show how smart he was or to get favor with the guards. Maybe he also just did it to feel normal for five minutes. Right. Like it gives you this insight into who he probably was outside of the prison of like he was good at reading people. And I I wonder what he got from knowing he was right. Like he could see the moves before they happened and he had checkmate already. And I just love that about what he brings to the story. Yeah. This is where I'll say the checkmate I think is a plot hole. But all the way up until that great. We'll come back to that. I love this. This is great. So kind of in the same vein though, ⁓ Andy never loudly declares who he is. He just quietly acts from it. Yeah. How much of your identity lives in what you do versus what you say? That is a great question. I think that is one of the things that the movie literally shows. I think like Andy could have said that not he he said it one time like it didn't do it and then after that he never really had he never played his case again. Correct. And so he then became like I said using the wit and then he repeats the line that when ⁓ the young man comes in that's a little rock star. And he Tommy asks well what do you do? And he said, Dip, don't you know? Everybody's in the same Shaw Shank, right? Exactly. Like I love that way that he was able to assimilate in a way that he didn't lose who he was. Correct. But he still was able to like move like one of them. Yes. And And I think through that, I think what I saw the most is you asked the question is like, well, how can you let your actions show who you truly are versus saying it, right? Yeah. Like he was a man of resolve so much that he wrote, like, he said that he was gonna write it, but then it's like the fact that he followed up and did it. That he wrote a letter every single day ⁓ for six years straight. Yes. Until and I'm talking about for six years straight after getting thrown in a hole, after getting still beat up, after getting raped, like he's still writing letters for books for money. From the state. The very state that also threw him in jail. Absolutely. Wrongfully. Wrongfully threw him in jail. So like the way that he the fact that he wrote and they sent him a couple of and then all of a sudden the wire's like, ⁓ it did work. Uh-huh. And he gets the $200. And it's funny, he says, ⁓ great. Now I'm gonna write him twice a week. Yeah. I'm gonna double down on it. Like it's not enough. And it's like that's why I say he's aspiring, because it's like he not he's not telling it to the world. He's not telling it, he's like wasn't even really telling it to Brooks. And like Like getting to this place where it's like I'm gonna get this to a place where we needed to be in. and then while still the first one, right? Like he gets these ⁓ books delivered in, but with the cassette player, I mean not the cassette player, the record player. ⁓ yes, I love that scene. And it's like right in that moment, it's like the books could have been enough. Right. Me getting the check could have been enough. Right. And he is like, you you brought this point up. He wanted to feel some sense of normalcy. Yes. Right. And not only did he want to feel it, he wanted With others to fit with. Yes. And so this is where I say the inspiration because it's like goes, takes guts finding that key and observing, like you already said it. Yes. Like he's able to assess and reads everybody, reads the room, know where things are. And so like he's very calculated in a way where he's not manipulative, agree, but he's calculated. Yes. And so to do that in a way where it then locks the guard in the bath. And it's the guard that actually like seemed to be like one that likes him a little bit, right? It's like alright, I don't have no offense to you. You ain't locking this. bathroom, flips on all the switches, puts on the the rec record. And it was crazy as as Morgan Freeman narrates it as like listening to it and it's like we don't know what those two Italian ladies were singing. And I don't even want to know. And I don't even want Yeah, we were all free. That's what yeah he was trying to do for other people. Absolutely. Is to free their minds in a space where they may have been physically bonded. Yeah. But he wanted them to be mentally free. Yep. And I think that's that's the hope bringer, that's the light, that's the the part that's so great. That's where he says something in it and it I resonated. Not saying I'm a a convict and a criminal, but like where you talk about laws of justice, right? You say I didn't have to be a criminal 'til I had to be get inside of here. ⁓ absolutely. And even and it wasn't that he was a criminal, like he wasn't trying to hurt other people but what they deemed as a criminal sure is what got him in there. But the very people who are criminals are the ones that's running it. Absolutely. And so like that's where it's like I was looking at his like h what does he truly value? He values people and he values taking care of people the right way where I'm not gonna have any ill intent to other people, even the people who are doing me wrong. He didn't he fought back in self-defense. He didn't try to calculate a plan to go kill ⁓ the crew. ⁓ for sure. And so that's where it's a place where like he could have done that. Was as smart as he was, he could have done that. It could have taken a different darker turn. A different darker turn where he turns into that, right? Then it's another one. Then it's like seeing that and it's like the very people that got y'all locked up are lived with less values than he is. Absolutely. and I think when he's doing that, it then left inspiration for the other inmates to have a internal change of heart too. Well, and I think your point is really well said too. It's like the low hanging fruit would have been to become vengeful, right? To either murder the men who were tormenting him and raping him, or he probably even could have tried to murder the guard. There would have been ways. But instead I think what he did was he created scenarios to hold them accountable. Yeah. Right? So like even if we jump to the end, the way he threaded it with the records and giving the information to the newspaper and exposing the corruption, he didn't end any of them. He brought to light what they were doing and they had to make their own choices. Right. When the warden takes his own life, Andy didn't kill him. The warden couldn't face his own reality. but that was his choice. Those were the consequences of his actions. Yeah. Andy found a way to just highlight the reality of what was happening. And I thought that's where I saw true strength versus pride, corruption. Because it's like this man was wrongfully convicted and yet showed up and inspired so many. While y'all are living free and then acting better than. Yes. And then when y'all are actually committing crimes, you can't even live to face it. A hundred percent. I had that thought too. Like how you can't live to face it, but yet you literally got somebody else killed off the strength of You didn't want your stuff to find out. So now seeing the two dichotomies of the very person that's running the system, running the prison, is truthfully one of the weakest people in the in the whole area. Absolutely. When I say in and when I say weak, I'm talking about internal weak. Absolutely. Internally weak. He's the biggest bully and corrupter in the story. I mean then he's he is a murderer, right? Like he has Tommy shot to protect basically what he considers his asset, which is Andy. He can't lose Andy. being able to cook the books and keep everything going and he also can't risk Andy selling him out. So he murders a young man to maintain not only his lifestyle but his reputation. It doesn't get much more corrupt than that. Yeah. And for me, like just from my own personal, like I am a man that believes in of a very similar faith and I want to get but it's just like very tough when you see that and it's like it's very understanding where it's like this has been really real life for where like things that are going on. When you say you believe in one thing. Absolutely. And then the very thing that you say you believe in, you go against everything. But now it gets construed that this is what you believe in. And that now that's what people think that that is what it actually is like. And that's where it's real. That's part of one of the things that actually did make me sad in the movie. But I know it's the it's the reality of what it is. It's like I'll use this just to keep control of you, but not really to empower you. And not even to live by. Not even to live by. Not not not not not even close. Thing about it was what I thought that was really great is he tried to test Andy and like use scripture. And then Andy was able to go back. And it's like just knowing it doesn't mean that you live by it. It means nothing. Means nothing. It means you memorize the book. Memorize the book. And it's just like math. Like, yes, you can memorize numbers, but at the same time, if you choose not to live right by those numbers, whether it's with finances or everything else, then what's the point of saying you were a great mathematician? Absolutely. So that's that's what's the point of you saying you're a great warden, but you don't want to even express what rehabilitation looks like for your When you actually led right into my next question, which was ⁓ kind of both on his being a warden and also being a Christian, he weaponizes the Bible while being the most corporate person sorry, corrupt person in this story. So when have you encountered someone who y has used the language of goodness to justify cruelty? And I think you could take that in many, many different directions. And that's where I'll say like this was a little bit talking before we got on, right? But is this where it's like where it's tough because But growing up as a a African American male who is a man of ⁓ what we call the Christian religion. Sometimes it's very hard me for me to say Christian. But I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in what he stood for. And that's really what it is. But I do know the connotation of what Christian is in our society. And so seeing that it's like this is what it's been like. And for me this is what it's been like as ⁓ African American male in America at times. Where it's like you see it all the time where people will use it and you see it with black pastors. You see it with and you see it in all shades and colors. But I just will say from a historical standpoint with slavery Right? That's one of the things that try was used to try to justify slavery in America. And that's where it's like really tough because it's like you see it now go into this prison system. And this prison system that truly was created. And this is where getting into like why prisons were created was because we no longer had slavery. Right. And so now you're seeing what was created to now put African Americans back into indentured servitude. Really not indentured servitude, back into slavery. see white males being now affected by the same system. Correct. And so that's where it's crazy because now it's like the very things that were started in the sixth in 1619, or not 1619, but after 1619 when we started to have slaves arrive in America, then transition into the prison industrial complex. Yeah. And then now it affects not only people of color but all types of people. And that's why I say this was a movie that opened my eyes because I've never I personally this movie was created before I was born but I personally had never seen a ⁓ movie about a wrongly convicted white male. I have always seen movies about wrongly convicted black people. That's a really I've seen documentaries about wrongly convicted black people. Yes, groups of them. Sometimes groups of them, right? So that's where this movie was the one that showed me like dang, even with that, and I say it goes back to even with the use of the Bible, use of Christianity, all people have been affected. And that's something that's been shown in the Bible. It's where it's like people use the words of God But then actually not live by the words of God. That's just for them to maintain power. You see that time and time again in the Bible. You see it with Saul, you see it with King Saul before David. You see it with all these people who then decide to say, ⁓ I'm being anointed by God, but then don't even live by the way that he's asked them to. Because it's no obedience. It's just regurgitation of the the language. But then and to maintain the power. And it's and also you start to see it, it then even shows even more and more insecurity. And it's time and time. Crazy. The very Bible that they quote, it's more stories in it that show that. That then say like this is and then it shows you the fall of those people. It shows you the fall of the king. And so it's like you're gonna quote something and live the same way that those people in the old testament were living, and yet they fell and their their ending was worse than what they was trying to protect. And so that's where it's like really tough when you see that going on in not movies, but in society. But there's like I've seen it in this movie, and I just opened my eyes from a racial lens that like no, this can happen to other people with the same so like thing. Growing up, right? Like I ⁓ I'm a son of a pastor and a teacher, but you hear about in the black community, you hear about church hurt. And I'm not and in my eyes, church hurt was always recognized with black people being hurt by other black people. Sure. Right? And that's just because of that's the context that I was raised in. But then now it's like also open my eyes where it's like, no, it's other people that can be hurt by other people of the faith. Yes that then have now driven them so far away. And that's one thing that I appreciated that like opened my eyes. Because from a faith standpoint, faith is not supposed to have a color. That that's not what What comes down to, but then now it's now that's what show well, that's what it showed me. But then I think like it also it inspired me to like Andy was in a man of tech, it didn't seem like he was a man of faith walking into it, but he started to live by the values without having to now necessarily declare that, and that's where it's like tough. That's a my own wrestle with, but like it was Andy inspired me more than the warden did. The warden called himself a Christian. There you But Andy was the one that was living it. Well, and I think it ties back into what we were just talking about the action. versus the speaking, right? So Andy embodied everything about hope and acceptance and courage and fortitude where the warden was weak and cowardly and corrupt and again a bully and abusive and a murderer, but proudly and proudly declared himself to be this kind of anointed figure. Yeah. And it it it goes from beginning to end that the ones who loudly proclaim their goodness were the ones with basically Came up lacking and kind of because even Red is very quiet too, right? Like even though he's our narrator, her his character is not huge. His character is very quiet, also observational, well liked, gets along, and has accepted his fate because he is a criminal and he did do something terrible as a young man. But the two quiet characters are the ones that become the heart and soul of the entire story because of how they carry themselves and what they do decade after decade after decade and where we end up. One big difference though that I think is important for the story is that Red spends his entire life, or at least the time that we know him in the prison decades, telling everyone else that hope is dangerous. Whereas Andy is almost like Pope walking. And so I wonder what you think about either for yourself or just in general, when people make peace with a smaller life to protect themselves from disappointment and hurt. Yeah, that's I ask the question in clarity I'm excited. Yeah. I just want to make sure I answered. So you can answer it personally or just in general. What do you think about those who make peace with a smaller life to protect themselves from disappointment and hurt? I think what do I think about? I think it's that's the way that they're surviving. Yeah. And I think that's okay. It's nothing wrong. It's it's i it's struggling, surviving, yeah. Getting finally getting by and thriving. Yes. And that's not necessarily a place in prison where you can really thrive. That's not the environment. That's not and at some point in time to just be able to have the will to go on, it is to now be able to say, This is the best I got. Right. But what I will say is is when you see somebody that you the very person that you thought was gonna crack. This is crazy. The very person that you voted for. Yes, that you bet your cigarettes on. That you bet your cigarettes on is the same person that inspired you to be authentically who you needed to be on the back end. And I say that way in a way where Red had gave up this hope. But r I think Red was trying to say what he thought he should say every time he was on parole. Absolutely. He had this curated thing about rehabilitation. About rehabilitation about and that's where it's like sometimes as the black man who did do it, right? And like this is where I was looking at as the black man that did do it, you feel like you now need to curate what to say in order to get their approval. And even when you do that, you don't get their approval. Right. And you just start all over. And you just start all over again. So internally it's like you're trying to get somebody else ⁓ external approval where you're trying to say all the right things. And it's not whether it's right or wrong, but it's about authentically is it real for you? Right. Can you feel it? And so we got to a place where Andy inspired him to be authentically real, where it was like what he did as a young man, he talked through. Yeah. But what he was able to actually go through. And that's where it's like the very hope that he said he didn't have is what led Andy Well Andy led him to then speaking with that somewhat hope. Yes. That he now even if he were to still stay in prison, he was able to reflect and see that his life was still changed. Yes. But now being able to get to that place again, that little glimmer, right? That little glimmer gave him an opportunity to walk authentically in where he has now become. Yes. And not what he was. And not what he wants and not what he want not what they wanted you to be, but what he is now. And that actually got his freedom. Well, and I love how you said that too. Like he even challenges them using the word rehabilitation. Because he says this is just a word made up for y'all to have a reason to sit here and wear a suit. Yes. And at the same time, I not a day goes by that I don't regret the actions I made as a young man, right? So acknowledging that dialectic of I'm not going to just put this political term on it because that's what you want me to say, because it doesn't get me what I want anyway. You don't believe me, and you just throw me back in here. And at the end of the day, of course I regret what I did. I've been in here for 40 years. I think about the life that I took and the life that I lost, and I live having to contend with that until I die. And that that's where I say Andy's hope also wasn't just hope, it was courage displayed. Absolutely. That's a good way to put it. Courage displayed is super important because it wasn't that scary things didn't exist. It wasn't that Andy didn't have fears. Absolutely. He didn't let those things dictate the way that he was going to show up. Correct. So that's where it gets to a place where like you talk about like what happens is we let those things dictate that the way way that we show up. Yes. And that's where it's like it's understandable when you've been in that environment so long. But that's where say it's like maybe if you can just be that one. And then what that meant was Andy was that one for somebody else and hopefully that one can be for you somebody else. And keep passing along. Right. No matter how old you were, right? So I think ⁓ I don't know, I thought it was powerful where you can learn something for somebody younger than you. That too. Learn somebody from somebody younger than you. Learn something for somebody who actually didn't do it but then showed up. Yes. Differently, right? Absolutely. He had a Andy had every reason to turn on every like to turn on it. Absolutely. He could have just been the victim because he really was a victim. Yes. And he could have fallen into that for the entire entirety of that he was there. And I think one thing I loved is that no matter what and every time Andy leveled up, he brought people with him. He didn't have to. She didn't have such a good point. It was time and place. And so like where the very person that you voted against is the one that's making sure you're downstairs helping me file these people taxes. Right. Like I'm getting us time together, right? Like and it's crazy. All Andy really asked for was just that one pickaxe, like the little rock axe, right? And then it gets to a place where then after Andy gets out, everybody's like trying to look out for Andy now. Yeah. Because it's like, and it's just genuine. It's not on some like you owe me this or that. It's off of the like now environment where and that's really what it was. environment becomes very transactional like trying to do business. Of course. Where it got to a place where it started to become a community. Yes. Andy's hope changed it from a a a prison of like we just here cause we in proximity to now we're choosing to be in community in the way that we're doing it. Absolutely and when when he escapes and they're having breakfast or some meal and and Morgan Freeman is saying that exact same thing of how we would talk about him often and we would share those stories and we would just really remember and honor like what he brought to us for nineteen years. Yeah. And what we went through together. And you're right, like you can't deny the mark that he left on that group of men, ⁓ even if Red hadn't been able to get out a year later. Yeah. I think that's where that's where it was amazing where those two men, two unlikely people to actually be close. Yeah. Two unlikely people and that's where it's like she gives somebody a chance. Like there's certain innate values and certain innate things that you don't gotta trust them overnight, but over a period of time, and this is where I'm at in life where you can have new friends even at this age that could go for the next thirty years. ⁓ a thousand percent. For them nineteen and then but like where like we think about relationships. relationships, but it's like no, like on the other side of this, no matter the circumstance, you can now find new friends, like legitimate friends that can go with you into twenty plus years of life. Absolutely. No matter the environment. And like you can find a friend in jail that really did, right? Like that's that's where I saw in this Yeah, no, I think ⁓ just like I said, just the way that Morgan was able to leave, like, I thought that that that hit me hard. Yes. That hit me hard. Well, and I think it's always really emotional too when you see Red on the outside and him walking that same exact path but basically that Brooks takes and how they almost imply, right, that he's gonna end it. Right, because he he doesn't know how to exist outside of the prison and we know that Brooks took his own life because he didn't think there was any place in the world for him after he was released. And so I I think even in that moment Red almost doesn't even make it to Z I can't say it Zawantanehox. ⁓ To meet Andy. ⁓ because even then the idea of hoping terrifies him more than resignation, right? He's really contemplating does he break his parole and go back to prison? I it's implied he's contemplating about taking his own life just like Brooks did, or really going for it. Yeah. And rolling the dice and seeing where it gets him. And so I wonder, like, what do you think it means to finally let hope take over and stop stopping yourself? Wow. That's I think it's tough but it showed that no matter the age and no matter what you've been through you can. Yeah. ⁓ and so I think it's a choice. Absolutely. It is a full blown choice. And sometimes we felt like we're left with no options. Yeah. Right? And let's be real, like even though it ended up and he meets Andy in Mexico before he got to Mexico, it was still things that he had to do. Yes. To get there. And it's like I I appreciate Andy so much where even though Andy was out of jail, he still gave him one more piece of hope on the outside. Yes. So it's like and I think Andy that's why I said he gained a real friend. Like like Andy did not have to do after he got out, Andy could have been Done. Like I'm see y'all not see y'all ever again, right? I'm good. But like no, what did he do? He told my man straight up on a outside of the walls, I need you to go to what a bay? Not was it a a barnyard? No, it was something. A cornfield. A cornfield. Yes. And it's gonna be this type of rock, a volcanic rock. Yep. Under a tree. Under a tree. Under this next to a rock. First of all, his photo memory is crazy. Yeah. Like that's crazy 'cause that wasn't even There yet. What he was doing is I'm telling you, he didn't tell him what he was doing. Right. He's he basically something gonna be there for you. Correct. But it's it will and are you doing that? Yeah, and that's where it's like I love how it's both because Andy didn't try to be a savior. No. No, like and if when I say he did try to be a savior, Andy could have said, Hey, I'm gonna take care of you when you get outside of here, right? Like I got this plan, I got so I see this where it's like where I I think it was written beautifully, like where he could have came in with this savor complex, but he left room to actually say, you know what, I'm gonna Give you just the olive branch on the outside. Yeah. But it's still you gotta do something to get to it. Yeah. And that's where it's like great because you get the he got like Red got to own his his process. Absolutely. Like you said, his own decision making. His own decision making. Yes. Like at that Red Red got to own his freedom. Yes. Getting to a place where he says, do I live this life just because I'm on parole? And I'm not telling nobody who's on parole ever watches. Not endorsing breaking parole, but I think even it's it I I work as people like I work with people, I know where they feel like the very job that they have is their only option. Is their only option. Yeah. And that's what I and that's what I and that's what I took from it. Not necessarily there the very thing that you have in front of you feel like is your only option, but you lost hope. And so you lost hope. If somebody gave you olive branch, you don't want to go and do your part to get to the olive branch. Yeah. So I think that's where ⁓ like seeing that play out where red goes and he looks and s I ⁓ it it broke me up to be real with you like when Raya was at the grocery store saying grocery store bagging bags bagging bags asking permission to go asking permission to go to the bathroom as a girl hey you don't have to ask and it's like well you don't know what he just been through like that's he does have to ask he feels like he has to ask right he does not know psychologically he doesn't feel any autonomy. And what what I will say is it it goes par on par for what he said in order for him to get free. This was not rehabilitation. Right. It it's still showing institutionalized. It's it's like you liter he just talked about it, but he got his freedom, but he said it right in it, like this wasn't rehabilitation. No. Like just because I've been here, just because I feel remorse, does not mean that y'all have done your part. ⁓ absolutely not. To say this is re rehabilitation. You didn't help me get acquainted into society, right? So to see that, then to go into the room and I already had a good feeling though, no matter what, like I I could kind of see where the story is going where he had the knife and he gets back to the room, the halfway house, and it says Brooks was here, right? And that's like he not about to do it. Yeah. Because the difference between him and Brooks is that Brooks didn't have the hope that Andy Correct. Morgan did. Or ⁓ Red did. Yep. And so because he had hope it's saying like it's just that glimmer that I need. It's just that I can reflect on the very things that that man had been through. Yeah, he was willing to take the risk. To take the risk. Like I know what I have here, but I don't know what it's gonna look like over here. And at this point in my life with everything I've been through, the willingness to find out what this could be is worth more than to just stay here and s lose my mind or lose myself or take my life. Yeah. Because again, you know, he's already lost 40 years. Is it really that much of a risk to try to go to Mexico and meet Andy and see what happens? I mean, it's also beautifully portrayed in a way that I think again, like what we're left with is that fortitude of character and hope. And I might not know exactly how anything's gonna play out, but I have some sense of belief that I can figure it out. And I think that that is just what makes it also again timeless, even though it it's very time stamped to take place in the forties through the sixties. Yeah. beautiful. Okay. Where do I want to Did I actually answer that question? I I felt Yeah, absolutely. I feel like a lot of your answers have led beautifully into questions I already had, which I think was great. so kind of with that, Andy really survived Shaw Shink by maintaining an interior world that the prison can never touch. Yeah. So how do you think you protect your own inner world? you encourage people to protect their own inner world from the systems and environments that try to grind you down. Ooh I'ma I know what you just said. I need you to say that again because that's powerful. How do you protect your own inner world from the systems and environment that would try to grind you down? This is amazing. I think this is where like Andy knew who he was. Yes. And never lost sight of that. Agreed. And he had every right to, but he did these subtle things that reminded of him of who he was and what he stood for. Because he stood for something. Absolutely. Like and he really did and wanna I think it's you hear this time and time again, old quote, is like when you stand when you don't if you don't stand for anything you fall for everything. Yes. Right. And Andy was a man of integrity, even though he was on inside of Shawshane. Yes. Knew he did not commit it. Knew he didn't kill his wife. While other people, like I said, we talked about committing a crime of passion. He didn't do it. Right. But yet he maintained that level of integrity throughout the time. And it's not easy. And I thought like from a practical standpoint, what Andy did I think was smart. Andy went and first he learned how to adapt. Yes. He had to learn how everything operates. H he learned it however he didn't assimilate. No. So like where like he is like he took on some things but he adapted. The reason why I say he did assimilate because he didn't take on the way that people thought. Correct. He didn't lose his identity again, his internal world. He just learned how to adapt. So maybe the way that I need to speak, maybe the way that I need to learn how to navigate, maybe the way that I need to learn how to conduct b business inside of this institution. not do business on the outside. Let me learn how to do business on the inside. Right. So that's why I say he adapted and didn't assimilate. ⁓ And then he found something that was still it's crazy, he had he still had hobby. Yes. He still had a hobby. And so like it's like the little things like taking the rocks and fine tuning them into chess pieces. Right? Where even though he's in this system, he kept giving himself his own self glimmers of hope. Absolutely. And so I think that's where sometimes it's like we stop finding ways to give ourselves. And I think that's something where like it's tough because he's literally in prison. Like, and it's they don't really get it's crazy. At the very end of the movie, he's crawling through the sewer pipe, and I'm like, yo, that's crazy, right? Like, and then he gets to the end, and what does he do as he's r getting through the water and it's raining though? Yeah. He's like, I just get to experience rain. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, to be outside like the outside. Like, think about they don't get to experience rain. Yeah. Twenty th 23 and one, we're not outside when it's raining. Right. Right. That's something I didn't even so it's like all those things that we can take for granted. Yeah. It's like this is a movie about people legitimately in prison. At literally like the worst prison in the country. Like it's very clear that this place is meant to be the worst of the worst. And so I think it's tough. Like so I I am speaking for to free individuals, people who have like people who are able bodied people, right? I can't speak for everybody. But like to s say we take things for granted from the majority of our society. Absolutely. We do. And then I think to a place where we talk about the fact that he Got to experience rain and find the sense of happiness and gratitude. Yes, he's free now. But like he he also didn't let the fear of I'm about to get caught stop him from experiencing that moment. And that's what it is. It's not about saying that you stop, it's not about saying that you don't gotta keep going. But can you stop to an and pause to experience what the earth has to give. Absolutely. We hear we hear it now, touch grass. I know. You hear the touch but like we real like we have opportunities to touch grass, to find simplicity where like he found something that even within an hour of a day being in the cover out like where he would take things and work on it. And it had no benefit besides that he worked on something. Well and I think that there's this beauty of again like we you and I, we talk a lot about like the value of the compass and you have To know what you stand for, and you have to know what your true north is. And I think that this movie really embodies that long before you know we knew each other, before we were using that kind of language, but Andy never lost sight of what his true north was. Yeah, right? With everything that he was going through and everything he had lost and every way that he had been abused, she never lost sight of A, I'm gonna get out of here, but really just B, I know who I am and I know what. truth is. Yeah. And whether it is yeah whittling the rocks or winning the beers for the guys or just having human conversations with them, like just being a person, helping Tommy get his GED. Yeah. Right? Like just taking that time and taking him under his wing and believing in him. He never loses what makes Andy Andy. And I think what's interesting too is like the movie very intentionally leads you to think Andy is gonna end his life before the Great Escape because he's been beaten down so much and he was in the hole for two months, which they all talk about is the longest anyone's been in solitary. Tommy's been murdered, he's seen the warden you know, utmost corruption at its worst, and we think that he's given up when really it's only made him ten toes down. Tent toes down. Now it's the time. time if there was ever a time it's now. And I think that's so perfect. Like it's like what I saw was I mean even before we got to like it's time now. Yeah. It was a place where like Andy knew like the fact that Andy decided to still fight for his freedom and before he got to that, like he tried to fight the right way. Correct. Like when Tommy came and told him, Hey, no, like this other guy Right. We have the proof I can explain. We have the proof. So it's crazy you go through walking around and he didn't even plead his case to everybody. Right. So now it's like you got somebody that you will stay in the test of time that you didn't even change during the time period. Correct. And now you have somebody else that can come and say like, ⁓ no, you like you didn't do it. Like why are you here? And it's like no I'm I With the person who admitted it. Right. And it's like, and so he could have been like, this is crazy. But no, he still, at that time, he tried to fight the right and just way. And that's the crazy, that's where it's like tough, where you we talk about laws. And so when I see laws as a black person, like laws that, and this is a this is me sidebarring, but like laws that hurt other people are just laws. That's how I see it, right? But there's some laws that aren't just. Yeah. And it's like time and place, and there's certain people. that fought for unjust laws in our society. All the time. And it's like where Andy knew that like because this was not hurting anybody else, I was willing to fight. And then I fought the right way. And now I gotta find an al alternative option. Yeah, I have to start over because again, he's seen as an asset to the work. He's a pro he's a object. Yes. Which again, as a a white man in a white story, you don't often see. But I think that this is also what I think Stephen King does really well, and again, this other branch of his stories is the horror of humanity. Is often much more terrifying than the clowns and the possessed cars and you know, people who have superpowers. It's just like he writes so well about how humans can be so dangerous and what it takes to maintain your humanity in the face of that. ⁓ and this was the first introduction I had to that branch of his writing. It's just Andy does try to do things the best way he can, and sometimes it works, and when he hits that wall. Wall of again, sixty days I guess we're saying in solitaire, Tommy being murdered It's now or never. Yeah. Right? Like this place is not gonna change. This warden is incredibly dangerous and there isn't much more he can do besides give up. Yeah. But I think what this is where I appreciated where we get to this place where he still maintained it 'cause it took him nineteen years. Yep. Nineteen years. And I don't know if Tommy had not been murdered if he would have felt that urge to leave right now. Right then and there. And I I I think he used anger, disappointment, and a way that he didn't hurt anybody else, but he used it as fuel. And sometimes and sometimes it's like tough because it's like, well, how much more, especially, like, do we gotta keep using anger and fuel? And I'm like, he did this for 19 years. Right. He did this for 19 years on top of being an adult. So I'm not we don't even get into like maybe what his life was like before what was none of his pre marriage life, right? Where we don't even talk about like his marriage. marriage and the fact that he never really dealt with what what happened to him. Right. Like he was hurt by somebody else and because he was hurt, she ended up still she got killed because her wrong do she was in the wrong place wrong time doing the wrong thing. Right. Right. But like we don't ever have to like res ri deal with that. And I'm like, he know I know he had to walk through that. And even to a place where he said something he was like that was like he was like, yeah, even though my wife was doing that, it's a part of me that I also attention that she need. Yeah, pushed her away. He he said he took some level of accountability for aspects of it. Like I didn't I'm not the one that killed her, but I did push her into that place. Right. Right where like he didn't have to take that on. But that's a different level of self-reflection, self and that's why I say he's different because even in humanity, he didn't even he didn't walk around like he was perfect. No. Like he didn't walk in. Right. But he didn't let his flaws and one thing I appreciate he didn't let his flaws lead him to then living a life of shame. There you go. And I think that's where like you can see it where a little bit of red where like he he had shame but he didn't get to a place where he was open about certain things. Yeah. And so I think that's where and that's just being guarded. They in prison they got they can't come across where in different person in different per personalities where he actually did have remorse but never got to a place where he could felt like he could express that remorse until the very end. Until it was like man at this point my man Andy gave me hope at the It is what it is. What else does You know, what else do I have to lose? Like I've been in here this whole time and I've been saying it like I'm about to get out. Like might as well just tell people like the real where I'm at with this. Correct. Right. And I think that's where the power of hope and what Andy did for other people. But it's it it was look getting to a place where this man lived his life as a human. Absolutely. As a as a full fledged human, embodying the pain, but did not then want to cut off his humanity. Right. And he never sacrificed himself. He never sacrifice and that's where it's tough. And that's where it's tough because sometimes we want to cut off hum our humanity to not feel those things. He had to feel what he felt about Tommy and that whole why he's in the hole. He had to feel what he felt about his wife and he did. Man, he had to feel what he was going through as far as when he was the one being assaulted. Yeah. And that's where it's like he felt it and that didn't stop him from fighting. No. And I think like, I don't know, this is before emotional intelligence was really deemed into our society. Didn't use that. But we didn't use that, right? But like Andy was very emotionally and self-aware where he allowed himself to experience those things, but at the same time, it didn't stop him from moving forward. And I think that's why the story of Hope, the story of like, you can get life gonna throw a lot of things at you. Absolutely. Life is gonna throw a lot of things at you. And I think, if anything, how can you keep your humanity? Yes. Know that can. Can you lose it all? Can you truly lose it all and build it back up? Can you still can you can you know that like even though things were unjustly done to you? Yes. Can you still maintain the humanity and grow and actually grow and grow even more? Because I think Andy grew while he was in jail. I think so too. Like I didn't think I don't think he came in Andy day one, like, ⁓ my god, like Andy got this resolve, I'm gonna break out in nineteen, right? Where I think he allowed other people like Brooks in the library to inspire him. I think that's true. And I don't know because again we don't know his history, but I think something about Tommy changed him as well. Yes. Which is the reason it carries so much weight in the story and the arc of Tommy's murder is sort of that like final catalyst where even though Andy has persevered and persevered, he's willing to risk it to just go through with the escape. Yeah. There's something in that dynamic, I think, too, because even at that point Andy's now the older kind of prison veteran and Tommy's this young guy with a family. Who just keeps fucking it up and he tells him like you might want a different job because you're not a very good criminal. You keep getting caught. And so I think you're right. Like I think the relationship with Red very bidirectually changes them both. And I also think there's something deep in that relationship with Tommy where like taking him under his wing and mentoring him and fighting for him and sending off his scores anyway and then having him die. when Tommy was also trying to do the right thing, I think affected Andy in such a profound way too. And I think that's where it's cool because it's like when Tommy gets to jail, Andy sees something in him that Tommy might not have saw himself Absolutely. And then not only that, even though he saw the him, he didn't I go back to this, he didn't go in here with no savor complex. Correct. He didn't go in here, he's like, bro, if you just if you just do right, like you ain't gotta come back here. No, like he first had to see some level of accountability and ownership of the Yeah, he asked him. Are you serious? And then once he did, he did walk through them. And even though you talk about reading people so great, Tommy just probably hated taking tests and still didn't see what was on the inside of him the way that Andy did. And Andy goes and says, Yeah, you frustrated. That's it is what it is. I'm gonna get this out of the trash and I'm gonna send this in. I'm gonna send it in. Because I'm gonna show you I'm gonna show you that the work that you just put in yes was worth it. It matters. And even if we got the test and I I bet I bet it could have went a whole different way. I bet those test results came back. That would have been the time where Andy would have actually then had that conversation with Tommy. It's like agreed. Just because you failed doesn't mean he would have because he knew Tommy had something to hope for already. And I don't think Tommy saw it like that. Like a wife or a sniffing other kid on the outside. Yep. And it's like, Tommy, you're also the one that like out of all of us, you about to get back out soon. Like Right, in such a short sentence. Like that was the first time where he like you acting like you ain't got no hope. Like, why you gonna keep coming back here? Right, exactly. All of us we In here for a while. I I'm serving two life sentences. Red probably got two, three of them. Like all these other people, we we we in here. We in here. You in here, and you shouldn't be in here with us. Right. There's really more to the world. It's really more to the world. Like, right, like I I experienced what we just look. If you just get your education, and and I think that's the amazing thing, is like we don't, it's not that deep into it, but like it gets to a place where even though they weren't rehabilitating people, they were getting to a place where because of what Andy was doing. Doing rehabilitation started to happen. Right. They were rehabilitating each other. Each other. Yeah. The system was the system was because Hope created community. I was just saying. The community that was then created had that library was so packed. I know packed. At first, think about it. Brooks used to go around on his little cart and nobody was really taking books. Morgan was, but Morgan was really taking books to exchange stuff. He was doing it for his job. For his job, right? While it gets to a place where because of what Andy did and write and was willing to be a trailblazer, people start reading books. Like it was like indulging in it. Indulging in the arts. And do and that's where it's like you talk about like, well, how are these people, these inmates, able to indulge in the very things that we have on the outside and we choose not to? Absolutely. I that's going back to your last question, right? Where like they're reading literature, they're reading arts and it's not reading it to perform better. It's reading it to ⁓ my God, this was a great story. Absolutely. ⁓ my god. To feel human like you said. To feel normal. And I think we choose to not do some of those things because we want to shut our brain off, but it's like instead of shutting our brain off and being distracted, and how about we read something that takes us through a path? Right? That's what true storytelling is. Yep. It is a concise path that will have its twists and turns, but it's all leading into one. It's not I'm gonna watch this video and watch this and and just shut my brain off and watch trash and doom. where I'm not gaining anything from it. The best thing I love about movies and the getting into what w what you do is that I was talking to my wife about this, is that people who write movies write them for a reason. Well the stories are the power. Like they write them for a reason. They're trying to tell s tell you something. Yes. It is a main character for a reason. It is a challenge that they will face and there was a way that they will get over it, something that they will earn or at the end of the day, even if it's not the happy ending that you want. Right. Somebody setback in creativeness in a way that they're trying to tell you something. Agreed. I mean that's the whole reason I want to do this is because I felt that way about books and movies my whole life, right? To escape into a story and to build so much empathy for a character and somebody else's journey and to be so present and so sucked into something I think is a privilege. And so to get to talk about it with people that I love and have these great deep conversations around like how things landed and how they affected you, I think it's just the icing on the cake, right? It's just to really think about your life before you saw Shaw Shank and now your life after, right? Like there's these moments in movies and books and stories that like you can remember before. Like there's a pivotal moment of like, wow, before I knew those characters or before I knew that journey and then after. Yeah. And I love this story because I think it is so deep and so hopeful and so moving and heartbreaking all at the exact same time. ⁓ and it is really dark and yet it leaves you, at least for me with such a sense of possibility. Yes. Right? Like to overcome and still end up together on the beach in Mexico is a pretty phenomenal final shot of these two men and how how far they had to come. okay, so as we're starting to wind down, get busy living or get busy dying is one of the most repeated famous lines in cinema. Now that you've heard it in context, how do you think that it lands? ⁓ I think saying that to the wrong person I wouldn't I wanna I don't wanna like normalize like hey get busy get busy living or get busy dying. I don't I don't wanna know but for me personally, ⁓ that was inspirational. Yeah. Like because I think like I'm not in a place of crisis. I'm not in a place of like where like I can't that can't be I don't want that to like a general blanket statement that all of a sudden now the culture's using like get busy get busy living or get busy dying. 'Cause I think that will resonate with some people the wrong way. I think that that's really intuitive because my next question ties right back into that is there anything you think would have hit differently if this sorry, is there anything you think would have hit differently if you had watched this movie in a dark place in your life? because of the way that it ended, no. Okay. But if it ended on the get busy dying And I'm in a dark place. Yeah. I think that's different. And that's why I say like I don't want to know. But because of it, it was get busy and when you said that, it was like, all right, bump it, I'm I found I had a plan. Yeah. All right, I'm gonna go ahead and now take care of that plan, right? Where he's driving in the drop top to the border and it's like, Yeah, and then you did that. And that's why I say but I challenge that to be real from a si sitting back and after watching it twice. Reason I challenge that is like, all right, to be real from a plot host standpoint. Okay, let's get into it. At any moment Andy could Andy cell could have been moved. I have seen other prison movies where you ain't in that same cell for 19 years. And that's all I'm saying. So my man dug a hole for 19 years and had the pleasure of keeping the same cell. That's all. Okay. That's all. And it's not as and then when he and then my thing is, I guess now seeing other like And this is just where I'm at. We're so far ahead in like storytelling in this generation. Sure. Where you see the methodical precision that goes into actually breaking out of prisons. Sure. Like, ain't nothing show me that Andy was ready to break through no metal and crawl through no ho and crawl through no sewage pipe. I get it. I knew when the rock when he asked for the right thing, okay, he gonna be doing something with that, right? Sure. I'm cool. I'm cool with him actually digging the tunnel and getting through the tunnel. I ain't knocking that. What I don't get is I Alright, you get to the tone and you ain't never explored none of these tunnels and you think that it's a pathway out. My thing is that's why I say it was a plot hole. Cause at some point, that sewage system could have led you to nowhere. How did he know it was gonna take him there? How did he know he was gonna take him there? We didn't we didn't see any of that in the movie. We knew it did foreshadow that he was gonna use that pickaxe to dig through some rocks. Sure. We ain't talking about no metal, we ain't talk like he showed none of the rest of that stuff. That's all. That's all. That's all. And then at the same time. How do we know the sewage pipe gets you to the outside of the prison? Fair. I think the way that I always have made sense of it, and this is not making me correct because I did not write this story obviously. But I think because he had been there for so long and he had established so much access in that prison, I think it was probably a pretty old longstanding prison in terms of like the layout and the geography that he was so smart that again it was partial risk but more calculation of like the way this thing was built and the way this sort of area is designed. Is this tunnel only goes one way? Back the way under the prison or away from the prison. And my guess would just be he rolled the dice with enough information that the odds were in his favor that this was going to have to evacuate all the shit from the prison to some sort of what do you call the repository area and then I can run from there. You know what? 'Cause it's also a long time ago. It is. And I'm glad you said that because I think I'm looking for it from a certainty standpoint. Mm. Right? Like it's no way certain that this so it just shows that like our cause it didn't really the how they told it was like we I knew Andy won't hang himself. ⁓ that's not why he got that rope. I'm like, bro, you've been through way too much ⁓ you to do that right now. Yeah. And so I'm and if it would have went that rough, but my thing is is that I guess the way that he got out, if he would have just crawled and had to hop a fence and nobody saw Cool. It's when they don't show what happens and then show that he did this extravagant escape. Yeah. But I'm like, and that's the I'm calling BS. But at the same time what you just said, I think that's something we're like left to interpretation. It was no certainty that ain't when Andy did that, that he wouldn't have known that that would have led to freedom. Right. It just happened that it did work out that way. But for me, I guess sitting in that cell, if you Andy and it's like, shit, what's the worst that can happen? Like they shoot me in the back on my way out. On my way out. Or and or they see me and before they shoot me, Bring me back to prison. Right, or kill me then or whatever. Yeah. I don't think the warden would have killed him. I think that's the hard part too is he was so valuable to them. Yeah, I don't think the warden would have killed him. I agree. That's like hypothetical and that's why I but I think sitting in your cell and saying, I've now concocted this plan for nineteen years. I think I've done all that I can do. Right. I have to go for it. I have to go for it. And I think that's telling the same person that's sitting at a desk with a dream, right? Mm-hmm. It ain't necessarily you getting out of prison, but with a dream saying like, don't necessarily mean you leave your day job, but like You got a dream that you've been s waiting to go for and you ain't gonna know certainty on the other side of that. Correct. But if you don't go for it, then what you what we talking about? Right. And I think it's trying to find some sort of balance of I've done enough research or I've done enough risk analysis, right? At some point it isn't anything until it is. Yes. Right. And I think as humans we are so good at talking ourselves in and out of anything. Yeah. Right? ⁓ our mind works in great ways until it doesn't. And at some point some point you have to do to see. Yeah. You just don't know what can be until it happens. And so I have suspended my own disbelief in the fact that I think he did as much calculation as he could have with all the information he had acquired, this amount of freedom that he had moving around there. At some point it was there's enough risk involved to measure out what I know and the rest is gonna be what it's gonna be. Because I can't stay. I will say this as we start a wrap but one thing I I appreciator is that like it wasn't like they just showed him in the Mexico and they were like I think when he's at the bank yes confident yes all clean all cleaned up like I'm back now right where he's confident and they're like we're so sorry for us to be losing your business. Yes. He's like little do y'all know but like I think that's where it's like Andy did so much for somebody for everybody else there. Yep. That that I think that's where it's cool Where it's like, bruh, like you did what you were supposed to do and you do deserve that. Yes. Like it's not and that's that's where you see people like, Well, it's illegal my like no, like Andy deserved every bit of that. Yeah, he did what he had to do to survive and he made sure he had a plan to the best of his ability when he got out. Yeah, it almost reminds me like a little bit of like Robin Hood, right? Where he didn't rob from the rich, but he robbed from somebody who definitely shouldn't have been getting none of that anyway. Well, and that guy was robbing from everybody else. So I'm like at this point it's alright, I'm with it. Taking boxes of money apple pie is full of money, whatever it was. Yeah, like that's where you see like where corruption and when when people well it's funny, when you see corruption happening and then when the very people who are corrupt, when they get stole from, they wanna act like, ⁓ my god It's the worst thing that's ever happened. Or me's the same thing and same thing with ⁓ old Boggs. One the dude that he over here when he getting snatched back in. ⁓ no, don't do that now. Don't I I saw that for all the only dude that kinda stood ten toes down was the the correctional officer. ⁓ the guard. The guard. He like he a little bit he's fully off. Like but he stood ten toes down. Terrifying. Yeah. He stood ten toes down. But old boy Boggs, when Boggs got pulled back in, ⁓ kid at that point. I don't do that now. After what you've done? Yeah, no, don't do that now. I'm not feeling too sad for you. Yeah, same thing with a warden. I that's where like I know we're not watching so that's where I felt with the boys. Like you're gonna see like I see that time and time again with other actors and it's like you see that like no, don't get the don't get the crying now. I know. But I think that is done and portrayed so many times because people really do fall in those boxes, right? Like you will be the cruelest person to everybody else and then when you get even a taste of what you've been dishing out, yeah you crumble. Yeah. So that that type of character I think is replayed in stories over and over again because unfortunately they exist. Yeah. So all right, so kind of as we're wrapping up, one week of one week from now, what image or moment from this film do you think will live rent free in your head? what that's going on my mind right now. But honestly I think the one that I see the most is between when he is playing the Italians record mm and knowing that I just did something that was right and I know the cost. Yeah. Like that's where it's the inspiration where sometimes what you're gonna do that is right and it's gonna be a cost to it. Absolutely. But are you still willing to do Yeah. And then the last one, kinda just 'cause of where I'm at in life right now, is that Tommy piece. Mm-hmm. It's like you see something that's on the side of somebody else and you know that they need to do their part. Yeah. And even if they, you know, act out and seemed to like it could disappoint you, you still gonna do what's right to make sure that you're good. Yes. And I think those two things where he didn't tell Tommy, he didn't try to console him. Tommy had to work through some of that. Absolutely. And he even like instead of giving him answers, he asked him questions. Yes. I love all of their relationships like he he asked them questions to make him thoroughly think. Yes. ⁓ and I think from that place where it's like Being a great question ask somebody who does live a life of inspiring hope, mm, you get to a place where it's like just 'cause you can say it doesn't necessarily mean that it will make them live it. So how do you how do you do your part instead of just telling them and then the rest is up to them. So I think those two things those two things really stood out. I know I was supposed to choose one but the doing the doing doing what's right even though it's gonna be a cost or it's a price to pay. Yep. ⁓ and then Knowing that somebody can be mad at you, but even though they're mad at you, they're really not mad at you, they're mad at themselves. And so you still gotta do what's necessary for them to grow. Yes. Those two, those two for sure. I love that. Yeah, for this one, ⁓ I already said it that I I always equate Andy standing in the rain after he breaks free with this movie. And I think again, because it had such a distinct life in my memory of seeing it and thinking this movie was gonna be scary, mm-hmm and then seeing it in context, and it to me it's that ultimate. Moment of mindfulness where he's he's running, but he still stops and just lets the rain rinse over, takes his shirt off, right? And he's just like that freedom and that swell of like, I've really done it, I've made it, and it's just to me like that ultimate human moment in this movie where it's just so powerful. I love that image, and I will always be equated with this movie for me. Yeah, and how far he's come. That was good. This movie. Alright. Well, any final thoughts now that you have seen. seen one of the classics of all time? ⁓ no, so I think final thoughts I will say this movie inspired me to go back and to watch like you typically what I watch right now are things that are new coming out, right? Like looking for the net. But it's like what haven't I watched? This is what that's really what inspired me to do is to go watch a movie that I have not seen before that's c doesn't even have to be critically acclaimed. I think finding actors and that I know looking at the right storylines and and being able to experience that. I used to do that as a kid all the time with books. Yeah. It's like I haven't done it with movies, and I think that's the big thing right now. I'm in this big nostalgia kick, but then I'm in a nostalgia kick where it's like, dang, you you you didn't see this. So it's like trying to catch up a little bit, not necessarily catch up, but experience that. So like I don't need to see something brand new to experience newness. I a hundred percent agree. So what I'm hearing is you'll probably be back because we'll come up with some other bangers that would be good for you to see. Yes, for sure. I'm ending every episode and I'm sure you have a bunch as well. ⁓ what's a movie that you Love, love, love that maybe I haven't seen. I'm building a homework list. And then we're gonna flip the script and start doing these episodes. We talk about movies a lot. I know we do. ⁓ my god. and you have seen a lot. Like and I've missed a lot though. Like I've had a couple recommendations that I have to do my homework. I'm trying to think. So, like what are some movies that was replayed in my have you seen Harlem Nights? No. Wow. Done done. There you go. That's it. Now that is so we're talking about something that's old, right? That's classic. That's a classic. That's Richard Pryor. ⁓ okay. ⁓ young Eddie Murphy. love it. Young Eddie Murphy. ⁓ Red Fox. Okay. Funny. All is get out. ⁓ good cast. ⁓ Arsenio Hall. ⁓ It's it's and it's like set in like the nineteen hundreds too. Okay. So early like yeah, no. ⁓ Okay. Perfect. It's funny, it's witty, it's it's crime. It's like it's a crime. Like not a crime, but it's like got some stuff to it, but like Okay, this is great. I'm taking my homework seriously. So this will be my homework commute. It will go on my list and then at some point once I've done handfuls of these episodes with everybody, we're gonna switch. Okay. And y'all are gonna have to interview me and I will do my homework. And I'm very excited. I love it. That's a that's a good movie. That's a class. Yeah, that's a class. Perfect. It's going on the list. All right, well we have done it. Another episode for the books. Hopefully you've enjoyed it, our deep dive, much more emotional than our previous ones, and I'm just so happy to get to share a masterpiece with you. ⁓ Hope everyone's enjoying listening. If you're following, please like, leave some comments. You can find us on Instagram, Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcast, and YouTube. And can't wait to keep having these conversations and bring people on to the cinema train. Until next time. Bye. Good.