Scene Interpretation: To another episode of Scene Interpretation. I am Dr. Sophia Murphy. I'm a licensed mental health therapist here in Arizona. if you've been listening to any episodes, or if this is your first time joining, I am a movie obsessive. ⁓ back as far as I can remember, and nothing better for me to spend my time than hanging out with cool people talking about that I love, ⁓ and especially when it's a movie that somebody has seen for the first time. ⁓ So today am hanging out with the beautiful Kristine ⁓ and we going to get into a super super classic and I am so excited. We are gonna be talking about Psycho, the original 1960, not that remake nonsense. We're gonna pretend that doesn't exist. So if you want to introduce yourself, we'll kinda get into it. Yeah, hi. Hi, ⁓ I'm Christine. I'm a Spanish teacher, friends with Sophie, and I love watching mostly TV shows. I'm more of a TV series person. Right. ⁓ more than movies, which is why I've never seen Psycho. ⁓ but I love talking about them also, so yes, and I'm glad you said that because I think it's really cool how we landed on this movie is because you were telling me how much you love the TV show Bates Motel, and I've never seen the show, I've only seen the movie. So I'm actually really excited as we're going through the conversation today to see how it affected your maybe interpretation or feeling towards the movie. And also I just don't know anything that happens in the show. So I'm really kind of curious to get maybe some spoilers of like how it I'm assuming builds onto the movie. Yeah, definitely. Should I give away any spoilers? Should I be careful about doing that with fancy mortal? I think at this point we'll just say we're gonna be spoiling anything. We're not gonna super censor ourselves, depending on how well you sell it. I might get really invested, and then you can let me know if you don't want to spoil cer like a certain thing, because maybe I'm gonna want to watch the show. For sure. So I'm gonna let you decide. I want people to actually want to watch it and not be like, now I know everything. Okay, that's fair. And now that you've seen the movie, maybe the movie also spoils the show a little bit. I'm not sure. You kind of have to like you have all this extra knowledge, so you'll have to decide. Definitely. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of knowledge here about ⁓ Norman Bates in general. Yeah. My brain. I'm imagining it's so cool. We're gonna. layer it all together. Alright, so ⁓ I think I want to jump right in and talk about the most famous scene probably in most movies and especially in this movie the shower scene. So it's arguably one of the most famous scenes in cinematic history and maybe both because of the show or just again like general cultural knowledge. Did knowing that it carries so much weight change how you experienced the movie this first time? Did you find yourself like really waiting for that scene or were you just going with the Flow. I was trying to go with the flow, but it was really hard because I kept guessing who these people were and I was wrong. I didn't know it was gonna come so early in the show. Yes. Like I was like, wait, she's showering. ⁓ this is just her showering, and it's a foreshadowing to what's gonna happen like at the end of the movie. No. Yes, and I'm so glad you said that too, because that was really groundbreaking for the time. So Janet Lee was pretty famous already, and it was very much marketed as her movie. And so there's actually a lot of great newspaper clippings and Different stories about how Hitchcock famously refused to let anyone into the theater after a certain amount of time because he wanted to maintain that tension that this was her story, and so when she's killed very early on, people didn't know what to expect because they'd never seen anything like it. I've come to this movie to see Janet Lee and she's dead. Where could this possibly go? And so I wonder what you think about it, kind of now that you're in on that secret that's been part of this like movie culture. for over six years. Yeah, I definitely thought it was interesting. ⁓ I kind of had an idea of where the movie was gonna go after that just because of Bates Motel. Sure. but honestly I thought it was a really funny scene. ⁓ no Tell me more about that. I mean I'm sure if I had like never seen it before, I don't know, maybe like I don't think old movies are that scary. I think it's funny, like, sure, the music. I've always known that Yeah. Like I've known The high pitch violence. And that someone gets killed in the shower, but watching it, I just I couldn't like the the way they film, the way that their bodies move and they're not actually stabbing her. Sure. And she just like falls out of the shower and I'm like, are you really hurt? So kind of a funny experience for me. Yeah, okay. I mean totally valid. That's part of some movies not aging as well as others, right? And so I think what's neat too though is growing up and seeing this pretty young, they had to do so much because again, like you couldn't show those things in movies back then. So there's a lot of Hitchcock's brilliance around how they were able to get away with it. And one of the biggest changes that he made to be able to get the movie made was to make it black and white. Because you couldn't show the blood like that. And you couldn't have what was considered a high level of gore back in the late 50s when they were filming it to have it even be released in the 60s. So making the whole movie black and white was specifically for that scene to get the green light to even have it be made. Wow, I had no I had no clue. I thought they didn't even have like colors. They did have color movies, yes. Back from about the 30s. And I was like, why is this so? And I don't mean to hate on Alfred Hitchcock. No, for sure. ⁓ I'm I'm like that with. When I told you the birds too, it's excruciating for me. That was the original idea. Like he gets the credit for that. But Bates Motel, as I'm watching this, I'm like, Bates Motel is so much better. Like the cinemography is better, everything. But you know, it was it was enjoyable and interesting and and funny. Yeah. And I think because I watch so many gory, explicit shows now and world. to do that nowadays that I'm very desensitized to like that other stuff. ⁓ and that's a super valid point. I mean at this point everything we've seen since nineteen sixty is gone through the roof. And probably even just in the last fifteen, twenty years since Torture porn really took off as its own type of horror movie, you know, separate from like ghosts and demons. Our threshold I would imagine for any of us who like those types of movies is pretty freaking high. ⁓ this is very tame in comparison. For sure. ⁓ so yeah, I guess kinda talk to me about just like your general takeaway, how you felt when you were watching the movie. I probably look at it differently, look at Norman Bates differently than other people. I'm not sure. It's hard to like understand what someone else might see him as. Like you who's never seen Bates Motel. because I watch a lot of like these gory killer shows, I'm very interested to know like where that psychology comes from. Sure. Bates Motel, that's what the whole premise is. Right. It's technically a prequel, but it does take place in present day, but it has like a intra 60s vibe to it. Like they like to watch old movies together. Okay. And it's him and mom. And him and mom. So Norma and Norman. Okay. And you learn a lot about Norma. Okay. And his toxicity comes from Norma. Yes. So you kind of see that in the movie, but I was like, you don't get the full development of how he gets to be this way. So I could see how maybe someone is like, ⁓ this guy's crazy, you know. I mean, obviously he's got some issues, but I feel really bad for Norman. Like I feel for him, I know all the things he's been through. So it builds a lot of empathy for him. It does. Okay. So watching It I was like, I feel like this is just a snippet of what this tr the whole story is, which obviously they created the rest of that story apart from Alfred Hitchcock. So right, they got to really run with it however many years later the show came out. But I feel like they did a great job at that. Like I feel like Alfred Hitchcock would be happy with it. I will I wish there was a way to find out like what he thinks about like carrying on this legacy story. Yeah, because essentially Psycho is just like the end of Bates Motel. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, 'cause nor I guess there is a psycho too, to be honest. I've never actually seen it. ⁓ and the same actor comes back to play Norman Bates. So I'm not sure how they expanded his story. I guess he gets out of prison or out of the asylum wherever they're like holding him. ⁓ but yeah, that's a really good point. Is the original movie, at least the way it's designed and captured, is really like we don't we imagine he's been doing this for a very long time. He's very tortured, I'll use that word I would say psychologically, and it catches up to him. And he's Institutionalized because he's just too dangerous. And it's really, really sad because you do see how like his mom is so manipulative and where that comes from. Like at a very young age and she's been also in abusive relationships and Norman has seen that. Mm-hmm. And he hurts he wants to protect women from men, so he'll hurt men, but then his mother also instills this shame within him. ⁓ this woman is a trollop, how dare you feel something sure for someone like that? almost even forms a weird incestual bond with him. Right. So he's obviously as a brain is developing confused about all of that and why he takes on Nor Norma's qualities and becomes her because, you know, he is shaming himself as his mother always did. Correct. For having any attraction. Yeah. And then he goes after these women as Norma. Right. 'Cause his brain can't even compute what's going on. So it's And this is a good sell, and to me it really does sound like it's building off of the little tiny bit of breadcrumbs we get at the end of the movie when the psychiatrist comes back and shares what he took from his clinical interview with Norman. And so I'm not gonna quote the lines perfectly, but basically he does talk about how, you know, his dad died at a young age. So it was just him and mom, mother. And to your exact point, I don't think they used the terms incest yet or even like emotional incest, which we have now in my field, but is implying that they became closer than was healthy and that he basically developed a split personality. And we didn't have that terminology back in the day either. And it is Steven still very co ⁓ what's the word I want? Not contradictory. ⁓ my gosh. No, where people think that it's like not true, some people think it's true. I'm having a total brain fart. It's ⁓ controversial. Thank you. ⁓ even that's controversial today, right? Some people believe in DID, some people don't in the field. And so it was pretty groundbreaking again to have this idea that he developed the split personality of becoming his mother, and his mother was the one who was killing the women because he had all those conflicting feelings. So it makes me excited to maybe watch the show because it does really sound like they build upon On those little breadcrumbs we end on, which was he was quote unquote psycho because he had this split part of himself that he couldn't control, and that was the violent side. That was the side that was doing all the killing based on this less than ideal relationship with his mother as a small boy. Yes, exactly. ⁓ what was I gonna say? I know, thoughts. There's so many of them that I was thinking of. The monologue though is really funny. I had made a note about that because I'm thinking like, do people know what's going on in Norman's brain like I do as I'm watching this? And then at the very end this guy doctor comes in and gives a whole monologue. Yeah. Explaining basically everything I knew from about Norman Bates. So it's just interesting also to see how ⁓ old movies do things in a much more like I don't want to say less artistic way, 'cause that seems rude. But like But like I don't the the way that they portray like you know, Norman is Norma, they have Vera Farmiga, the actress for Norma, like actually acting, whereas like in Psycho, it's just some guy coming in and explaining the whole thing in like a five-minute monologue. Yeah. Which is fine. It's not my personal jam. I like the the visuals, but you know, I just thought it was interesting how they like wrapped it all up at the end and yeah. And I think again what we're bumping into is that distinct ⁓ difference between not really having any Anything to compare Psycho to when it was made, and all the information both in that same universe and different stories that we have now, right? I mean, I think the idea was that the typical person who would go see this movie in the 60s is on the ride with Hitchcock for the entire movie. That you have Norman, this like soft-spoken, quiet young man who seems a little off. I mean, he's obviously crossing boundaries, he's watching, you know, Marion through the wind or through the little hole in the wall. Like it's a little creepy for sure, right? And you're concerned. Convinced that his mother lives upstairs and that there's this bizarre dynamic between two distinct people until the shocking moment at the end where you see him dressed as his mother. Yeah. There was just nothing like that at the time. That's true. And that's that's one thing I was gonna run back to is ⁓ watching that part for me. I was like, it's Norman. Right. I know it's Norman because you you see that in the show, and you see the progression of that. Like you even see him, like before he fully embodies his mom, he's like trying on her dress and ⁓ and another incestual part to it that I know like drove in Bates Motel was Norma would just be like changing and be like, Why are you walking away? I'm just your mother, like or come give me a kiss on the lips, I'm just your mother. Like yeah, really leaning into that emotional incest. Yeah, so you can just see a lot of that coming about like through the whole show. But yeah, for me it was I can imagine how shocking it was at the time and just for first time viewers, but for me, ⁓ yeah, I knew like the whole topic. It was it was him dressed up. Right. So you had the most shocking reveal as, you know, information before you even started the movie. Yeah. Which makes sense. I mean this movie's been around forever. It's hard to not know, even just in pop culture, right. The whole idea that Norman Bates dressed as his mother and killed these women is again just kind of like knowledge a lot of people know. I actually didn't know that until I started watching Bates Motel. Like I knew nothing about Bates. Okay, there you go. And I didn't even know Bates Motel was I for like maybe the first couple seasons, the first Time I watched had no clue that it was related to Psycho. And I meant might have mentioned it to someone like, yeah, Bates and maybe my mom, like Norman Bates, like Psycho. I'm like, like the shower killing thing? Yes, there you go. So it made that connection, and there's actually at the very you know, the end of the series, 'cause that's essentially when Norman becomes the creepiest. Like his mom's gone, he has fully done that slit personality. That's when he starts cutting a hole in the wall and everything. Toward the end of the series, and at the end of the series, ⁓ Rihanna is actually ⁓ Marianne Crane. ⁓ wow. So there is an episode with Marianne Crane in Mary Township, like handing it off to the movie. Exactly. I mean it does sound like they did an excellent job for sure. Yeah. And there's all these like side stories in it too. So you know it just shows you too how like all like these like Norma and Norman attract all these like bizarre guests that are like very sketchy people. Like every time they think everything's okay, there's like a New person selling drugs or killing people and then they get involved and Norman goes crazy. So fascinating. Well, and I do want to say too, I won't spend too much time on this, that I I saw some really interesting criticism of this movie maybe like five, ten years ago, that people thought it was a really negative connotation of a trans person and that it was really damaging to the trans community because it depicted Norman Bates as a murderer. And I haven't obviously spoken to anybody about this. This was just like a a thing that I Saw on Netflix or whatever. And I think that's very interesting because that's not my read on it at all. I really take it as he is really mentally disturbed and trauma like traumatized, right? And sees himself as his mother, not just a man who believes he is a woman, right? Or who knows his true identity is a woman, that that he is completely warped from the young abuse or the abuse he experienced as a young man, that he can no longer separate him and his mother as. Two distinct people. He's absorbed her basically into himself, and really is, I think, maybe an early example of dissociative identity disorder in a movie, not a really, really poor representation of a trans person. So I'm just curious what you think about that. Yeah, I know that's actually, I'm glad you brought that up because even in the movie, and it again shows the the date of the movie where the way that they say he's a transvestite. We don't really say, we don't say transvestite anymore because that's outdated. and I was like, you know, that's interesting because. I Yeah, I I wasn't sure what the term would be, split personality or what have you. But again, knowing so much of W Norman Bates, you know, he doesn't wanna be a woman. If anything, it's his brain protecting him because, you know, to accept the fact that I went and killed someone and I'm doing these things, that's too much for your brain to absorb in right and I j I know just through experiences and reading and stuff that your brain does do that to some level with trauma. In general. So ⁓ it makes total sense. And I can understand how that could be confusing for some people. ⁓ but I just think that it shows that we need to have more knowledge on you know, transgender people, these different ⁓ personality split disorders, whatever it may be. Yeah, absolutely. It's not just surface level, ⁓ he's dressing like a woman, so he wants to be a woman. No. Right. And I think that maybe if anything, to give the movie a little more grace, I can't remember who actually says the statement. About being a transvestite, but it was the doctor at the who gave the monologue at the end. Got it, yeah. So even the monologue content and the title are contradictory. You know what I mean? So, like, even if you look back at old psychology, we didn't consider transvestism split personalities. So, like, even there, I think there's a little bit of confusion, maybe just that's a writing poll. Yeah. well, I think it was actually someone who asked the doctor. So he's a transvestite. Okay, that's when it got to. Yeah, and then the doctor himself. It was a And then the doctor actually clarified no. So they do say like no, this isn't about that. They don't touch a lot on what right they s think transvestitism is at the time. Yeah. But they do say no. Okay. That's what I thought too. That's why I was confusing myself. Was I thought the doctor actually clarifies and gives more of again the psychology of his trauma, even though again we're not using all those terms back then. But I'm pretty sure he uses the words of like he splits. Yeah. And he does introduce that language and it's someone else kind of pigeonholing Norman in the wrong category. Because I think the one true part, especially in the 60s and even up till now, is people saw being transgender as a mental illness, and so that's something that we're unfortunately still battling. But I just wanted to touch on the fact that culturally, I'm not reinforcing a movie that I think portrays trans people as dangerous. I don't think he's portrayed as a trans person at all. ⁓ and I know just to kind of bring in ⁓ Ed Gean for a second here, I know we talked about how maybe Psycho wasn't inspired by Ed Gean, but ⁓ one thing he did do, at least from the the show that I watched about Edgeen is dress up he wore women's skin. Right. ⁓ it was the extreme. And in that show, again, it was a dramatization of it, but they he talks to someone about You know, I I think he talks to a trans woman over a radio or something like this. Yes. And he's questioning 'cause he's confused about himself. And this trans woman is like asking him all these questions, do you feel like you're a woman? I don't know, they get really deep into it. And he comes to the terms with he's not trans. Edgeen w and that's where I think the similarity comes with Norman is like Edgean just wanted to feel like he was in a woman's skin, which is like a whole other thing. Yeah. But it wasn't s you know, so there's just so much that goes into it and sexual identity or just slip personality that can kind of go over one another. Yeah, and again I think there's so many branches of every tree that even with the egg gene discussion, and I've studied him a little, but my memory too is he had a different sort of wrapping up of dressing in women's clothing or sometimes taking on some of those attributes was a sexual thing for him. which was still a trauma response in terms of like how his story unfolded in his life. And not every sexual kink is a trauma response, right? So there's just like so many layers to that. But I thought it was worth noting that there has been this criticism criticism of the movie, which fair, and at least in my opinion, that's not how I absorb it, and I definitely don't see it as a representation of trans people being dangerous. I think it's really a very ahead of its time representation of childhood trauma, splitting somebody's psyche to where, like you said, if you do these terrible acts, you have to kind of create this distance between you as you know you and the person who's actually. Upbringing from the show that that seems to track. Like this was his unfortunate ending or pathway from all the things that he endured was to try to make sense of himself as his mother in some instances. Yeah. And honestly, when I was taking notes on the movie yesterday, I was like, the last time I started watching Bates Motel, because also I've seen that show several times. I know you mentioned that you rewatched it. You're a big stan. ⁓ so I actually started taking notes and on like dissecting the whole show. show when I started so I brought up my notes and I'm looking at all this and I'm like, Yeah, Norman starts off not normal, but like he's He's just a kid, right? He just tries to be social, he tries to be normal. Yeah and Norma's just always like, and she acts like a child and it's the manipulation. She's like, Yeah, you just don't want to be here helping me. You just like No mother, no mother, I'll be here with you and Then then she wants him to go be normal later in the show. Well, you've isolated him and made him attached to you and you know, he gets involved in taxidermy, which was honestly started as a harmless thing. Mm and it's just interesting how that kind of compounds everything. Right. And just snowballs because it was like his friend's dad who was like, Hey, I do taxidermy, like you wanna do it too? And he's like, That sounds cool. It became something really creepy that started off yeah. Kind of innocent. Just like a normal like hobby. beginning. Yeah. I mean I'm not a big taxidermy person. No. Me neither. But I'm sure there's lots of people who do taxidermy who are not serial killers. That's probably the main takeaway. Probably exactly I love it. So kind of in the same vein, ⁓ you know, Norman Bates is introduced to us if we just think about the movie as very soft spoken, gentle, deeply sympathetic, right? Until we learn, the normal viewer who doesn't have this background, that he isn't, right? So what do you think about the fact that Hitchcock made us like him before we realized we needed to actually be afraid of him? Well, I think that's who Norman Bates is. Yeah. Is he is a gentle person and ⁓ again I think it's tr the trauma that makes him the other way and you kind of see that ⁓ when Marion they're in the room in the back room together. Right. Which side note I would not be in the back room with Norman like as much as I feel bad for him from afar, I no. Yeah, he's saying some weird stuff. She's they're just back there eating sandwiches and he's talking about his mother and she starts to well, maybe Maybe you should put her in a mental institution. Yeah. It just changes like how dare you start to see that within him. He gets very protective. He gets very protective. So and obviously like as much as I'll empathize with where someone's trauma comes from, I never condone. all that craziness. Right. You can be violent in stabbing people to death regardless of what you went through. We have to have some sort of line. So I ha yeah. It's a lot of diff like those two things can exist at once, I feel for him, but also he shouldn't be like running around free. Mm-hmm. ⁓ so yeah, it's just like I I feel like a lot of people can be like that sometimes too, you know, the quieter ones, you just have to watch out for those red flags because that was a red flag. And Marion's still like went to her room and I I don't know, I would I would leave. I'd I'd be piecing out of there. I'd sleep in my car somewhere. Well and I think that's another thing that oftentimes doesn't age well in movies is the decision making of the main characters, right? And I think it is tough because again, we've had so many experiences probably in our personal life and, you know, us both being socialized as women. Like there are things you learn to protect yourselves and how to like read a room. And I don't know that in nineteen sixty women were being taught those things, right? Like you pull Off in a rainstorm to this abandoned motel, and then not only get a room but end up having dinner with this man alone in this space. Like there's just so many things that in 2026 I would think most of us would do very differently. Like, I'd either keep driving or I'd turn around, or again, if I got that gut feeling that this isn't safe, I'd probably leave. but I've been on a big horror kick myself too, and it's interesting to watch some of these older movies and think like, I wonder why they didn't just leave. And that's like a big, I think, critique of most. Horror movies from forever is that they've relied so heavily on characters making poor decisions to move the story forward. Yeah. And I don't think it's just a movie thing. I think that's actually based on some real life because I've seen like shows where people have escaped killers, real stories. ⁓ that's fair. I don't know why I air quoted that. Like they did escape killers. It really happened. It really happened. And it's terrifying, but it's interesting because a lot of these stories took place in like the 80s and 90s, and people were were like, Yeah, I was walking on the side of the road and someone told me to get in their car and that was normal at the time. Good point. And that maybe to that exact point, you don't expect this man to be dangerous because either you're just not aware of that type of stuff in the world based on her little like bubble that she lived in, or it just wasn't talked about. You know, I think that's also kind of critiquing and giving it a little bit of grace at same time. Like again, we have to try to keep putting our brains back into that day of what would make her not want to do this thing that seems really benign. Well because we don't girls have to be nice. That's true. We have to be nice. We have to follow along. But I think it's actually interesting too. I noted in the movie the in the beginning there's a cop that stops Marion for sleeping on the side of the road. Right. And he says you should go to a motel and he even says for your safety. Great point. That's actually super insightful that you caught that and put that together because you could Argue then that she is trying to do the right thing and take the feedback she was just given. And I mean, again, I think, especially in the 60s, we were looking at police as very like helpful and and very much like you know the true North. If a cop tells you to do this, you know, cops would never do anything wrong. So, like, this must be the thing I need to do. That's a great point. And I I was even when I was thinking about it personally, what I was thinking too is like a lot of people will tell me, like, ⁓ be careful when you're you know, I've lived in a lot of like countries and dangerous areas, too. People tell me to be very careful in these. These spaces. ⁓ but I think that obviously, like, there if there's more crime in an area, it is more dangerous. But I think that anything can happen anywhere. That's also true. And I kind of feel like that was what I got out of that, too. Is like, you know, you could go somewhere where you think it's safe and it's not. Yes, and I do think that's a big part of Hitchcock's horror in general was taking the mundane and making it really dangerous, right? So, like, I know you don't like the birds, and that's fair. I I again saw it at a very young age, but I think. Just the idea of like that's not typically a creature we're afraid of, right? Like we're afraid of ⁓ sharks or snakes or spiders, movies that were all made after the birds, and just the idea that, like, a normal small sleepy town, normal day, all of a sudden the birds just start acting different, and that becomes the threat, and they become incredibly violent and basically destroy this entire town was again for the time just different. And I I think he excelled at that sort of under like current of destruction. stress of like yeah I mean at the end of the day it wasn't abnormal to stop and just stay at a motel for one night and then get back on the road. And she's pretty close to where she's headed in California because I remember later in the movie the boyfriend and you know the the is it her sister? It's her sister, yeah. Yeah like they can pop over to the motel and check it out for themselves. Like it's not that far. ⁓ and so yeah I think you're right there's probably this kind of built in sense of security of just like this is a thing people do all the time. Like how could this be the dangerous thing? Yeah. No and I I can totally respect that 'cause like yeah, you're showering and I know you said you were scared to take a shower after that. Which is understandable. That's understandable. And I never watched those movies as a a young kid. So I I would I was a little freaked out at one scene in the birds because like the way they film it can be scary. Which is the point. I I get it. It's a masterpiece. Yeah. But it's masterful skills. But as like someone who's an adult and I watch this and I've s again I've seen truly for me scary movies. I'm like the music and like Norman was like cleaning up the bathtub with like a Mop and I'm like, yeah. It just didn't land at those age. It didn't land, but I I still enjoy you know watching that. Yeah. Well, and I remember too, ⁓ again dating myself, ⁓ Universal Studios used to have like a Hitchcock attraction. And so you would go and they would have all these great props, and there was like two or three different rooms, and they would teach you how he did some of the best effects again for the time. And so one of the parts of the attraction was they would recreate the shower scene and show you how they used all the different cameras, how they turned it into Black and white and how they were able to, you know, make the stabbing motions without ever showing it penetrate the skin, because again, you couldn't do that in the 60s. And so for me, like even just hearing the strings, like that music is incredibly dreadful. Like it very quickly brings back those memories. Even when she's like driving in the car and it's rainy, you can just feel it building. Yeah. And it it just I think it does matter what time and place you're introduced to that stuff. ⁓ because yeah, no, and I can't really like be in it in the bathroom in the shower with my eyes closed because I'm just can hear the the string music in my brain. It's like when we did the Jaws episode, like if I get in the ocean I immediately hear the Jaws piano. Yeah. And I'm just convinced that there's a shark under the surface that's gonna kill me. This is the day. You'd be watching it like all scared. I'd be like, ⁓ I'm like like I again I didn't expect her to come out and do that in that moment. I thought it was just like an ⁓ this is one shower moment. There'll be another one. And I'm like, ⁓ damn it's already happening and I'm like Fair. Sophie's gonna ask me about this and I'm gonna say I wish I knew. I don't have like specific data on what the most like violent movie was before this movie. But I I have a vague sense though that this was again like people were fainting, like you just never seen a person get murdered on screen to that degree. Yeah. there was just nothing to compare it to. And even her like I know it feels comical to you, but when she falls and her eyes are open and the music is just playing and like Like the blood and the waters going down the bathtub, I think people just didn't know what to do with that. It was groundbreaking. It makes me feel a little psycho myself, like is if nothing gets to me. Like is that okay. Are we all okay as a society? Like it it really is like I mean I if I were to see this in real life, I hope that I would respond differently and you know, have different emotions. But it is interesting how, you know, people are in general I think more desensitized to kind of stuff. I think we've seen gorier things on the news. Like you make a really good point. Like we've seen crime photos on the news, like on documentaries, that stuff is just so much more accessible now, not in black and white, and it's real. So I do think your point is a hundred percent valid of like what we see as terrifying and as really disturbing is completely relative. Mm-hmm. Definitely. And it just has to be. So let's see. So kind of in the same vein. The Bates Motel is kind of just like this big figure in the movie, sits just off the highway, it's bypass, forgotten, slowly dying. I'm wondering if it brought up anything for you just about like how the world constantly like revolves and moves on and how there might always be these things happening around us that we're not aware of. Like the people like kind of in the town around them or? Just in general, like I mean, again, I'm sure I'm influenced by seeing this so young, but like people drive by that hotel or motel in the big house, ⁓ presumably for years and no one had any idea what was happening behind it. The world just kinda keeps spinning. Yeah. And so I just wonder what you think about that idea of like the world just keeps moving, it just keeps evolving and like we don't always know what's happening behind these closed doors. Just in terms of like that horror trope. Yeah, no, and I mean I kind of think about that with like anything. I just think about like how many people are like kissing right now, you know, like I don't know. Like there's people in their homes right now doing whatever. I have no clue what's going on. Right. We don't know about things that are happening until it potentially comes on the news. ⁓ true. You know, and it also makes me just feel like this can happen to anyone at any given time. ⁓ which is a scary thought and you I don't think you should go around paranoid all the time, but sure I am someone who is very alert and like I'm Protective of myself. I live alone. I've traveled alone a lot, so I am very ⁓ aware. I don't want to say paranoid because I'm not like scared going places, but I am aware, like I don't know what's going on here. Sure, I don't know what's going on anywhere, and I just have to protect myself first. Yeah, and there's a big difference between being like present, perceptive, and hyper vigilant. Like you are 100% on point. Like, I do think that being too unaware is just as dangerous as being hyper aware, right? We have to kind of find a way to navigate through without rose colored glasses per se, and also not assuming around every corner someone's trying to hurt us. Like it's a delicate balance. It really is, yeah. And I think to your other point, like for some people these kinds of movies would elicit the more hypervigilance where it just makes them more afraid of the world and then for some of us we just get more desensitized. Because people say that to me all the time, like I don't know how you watch horror movies, like I'd never sleep, I'd never be able to like do anything. Yeah. It's like I hear that and I think for me it it you have to create some sort of distinction between like fiction and cinema and like your real world day to day. Yeah, definitely. I mean I g I learn stuff from from this. Like I watch a lot of shows or documentaries where people get kidnapped. Sure. You learn what to do. I mean, hopefully that would never happen to me or to any of us, obviously, but again, anything could happen to us. We're walking along thinking it's a normal day. That's how everyone felt. when they whoever has gotten kidnapped, hurt, right? They've survived in these documentaries. Yeah. They've just been like walking about their normal day and something may happen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it is it's an interesting both and I think. And for people who like to consume the scary stuff, I think other people are like, why would you even want to put that in your brain? But I do think there's a little educational piece of like what I would want to do differently if I had a choice. Yeah, and I also it makes me always think about 'cause someone had mentioned to me how our nervous systems just are all different. Information differently. So this person who had talked to me about it was not into the shows that I watch. But for me it's like calming, like when I Dexter is another one that I've watched many times. Classic. ⁓ I would fall asleep to the song. It's the song is literally called Blood. And it's like the ending. Of the show. Of the show. And like there's always like the blood on the screen. I would like fall asleep to that. It's calming to me. Sure. And I told my friend that and she's like, you know, it's interesting 'cause I'm sure your nervous system just like is different. Yep. In that sense. And it reacts differently. And I think like just with my childhood and some of my past I've had a lot of explosive, violent relationships and family dynamics and maybe that somehow seems not normal, but just s somehow familiar or even for me I think I've thought about it like validating. Sure. You know, ⁓ other people have gone through crazy stuff, or people have gone through even more crazy stuff. Yep, they're okay. So it kind of helps me like escape my own craziness and trauma and focus on someone else's trauma. Yep. So well and I've been on this journey really since COVID. And so for me I I told people that nothing was worse than reality and almost to this day since 2020. So watching like a really insane Or like really over the top horror movie things that I used to not be able to tolerate is less activating to me than watching the news. And so like it's just become an interesting dynamic of like it feels very controlled, it's fake, ⁓ even though I have a like a physiological response I get scared very easily, like I fall for every jump scare. I'm like the perfect person that these movies were made for. It doesn't linger with me. It doesn't give me nightmares like the news does. Yeah. Like it's just real like to me reality is much more horrifying than any of the things we're discussing right now. The documentaries are harder 'cause they're real. Yeah. They kinda toe that line of like this is a real person that did this thing and this person really went through this thing. ⁓ but any of the like slasher movies don't bother me like they did pre COVID. It's very interesting. So my nervous system must have shifted too of like the distress of reality versus That's interesting that it 'cause it like sh cause I've always been kinda like this. Yeah. But like that yours shifted, which is totally valid. yeah, if I think about some stuff on the news and like I just my mind spirals and it's it's not ⁓ productive. ⁓ but ghost movies are what really get me I can't do ghosts. I can't. That's where I'll be like up all night like there's something under my bed. Oof. Some great ones of those too. I know I've tried some, but I I can't I can't. That's the thing, that's your line. That's my line because we all have to have one. You can't control the ghost. Like, at least you can kill a person. You can defend yourself against a human, a ghost. You just okay, well, you can you could appear anywhere, you could suck the I mean, I guess you just move and hope that it doesn't fall. But they never move. They never move. ⁓ I bought this house. I for Insidious, which is great. Okay. But yeah, that's the one movie where they actually do move, but it It doesn't solve the problem. It's got a great twist. That's what I'm saying. I can't do that. Like you move and you're still cursed. No. That's fair. ⁓ okay, let's see. A couple more from the movie specifically. Mm-mm-mm. So Marion steals the money, not really from greed, it's more out of desperation because of where she is in her life and this other life that she's longing for. And so you can either answer for yourself if you want to share, or just kind of in generally, have you ever made a decision you knew was wrong? But it was better than staying in your current situation. Slash what do you think about people who do that? Yeah. well I have a few things to say about that. The first thing is just interesting because I when I first started watching this and they didn't say her name, I thought she was Norma. ⁓ interesting. Got it. So you're seeing her very differently. Also, because in Bates Motel, ⁓ Norman's dad's name is Sam. ⁓ and that's her boyfriend. Interesting. So I was thinking, ⁓ this is the beginning of Norma and Sam and blah blah blah. And then I'm like, ⁓ no, this is like some girl who's gonna go to the motel. Right. It took me forever to figure that out until she literally got to Bates Motel. And then I'm like, ⁓ She's the main character. She's the main motel. I think she's the main character. Yeah, essentially. but then you know, I'm kind of putting together this. This is not Norma, this is some other person and she's with this guy. ⁓ I think it going back to the fact that it's an older movie, it's hard in those situations sometimes, ⁓ as like a woman and you know, being able to have freedom and get out of like sh I feel like she kind of felt like she had to be with this man to have what she wanted, to have that in de independence and yes. Like, if it were me, maybe n I mean maybe not before myself, but nowadays myself, I would go take that money and go somewhere myself, right? You know, I can do that. She couldn't do that. so I was surprised by that. I didn't think she was gonna take the money. Yeah. you know, and it just also makes me kind of cringe because it's like, ⁓ for this guy, like he's married too, right? So like Well and I think you make a a really great point too if we look at that time and space of I don't know in nineteen sixty, I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but like she couldn't have her own bank account. She couldn't do anything until she was married. Then it have to be through her husband. So the whole like kind of corner that she's in is not really self-imposed, right? It's very cultural to that time and space for a woman, and unfortunately, it becomes her demise, right? Like this decision leads to this snowball effect of scenarios with selling the car and then encountering the police officer and kind of like pushes her into this situation where one choice, you know, has a permanent alteration of her life. Mm-hmm. Yeah, demise of her. Really literally the end. But I think it's interesting because she was planning on going back and like making things right right before Norman killed her. but I mean I've read books, I've seen films where yeah, women are put in these situations because of society, because of the patriarchy, because of just how things were. Yep. And I would do the same thing, girl. Like there's no like go into Josh. Like, and then that guy who came in with the money anyway. Was a piece of shit, like just take his money, who cares? Like, you can have your own bank account, like, screw them. Yeah, and I I don't think we have any empathy for that guy. Again, trying to put my brain in this like 1960s, very black and white. Again, to your point, too, of even what a woman's supposed to be like in her kindness and her niceness. I I think it was probably a little bit shocking that she would break the law ⁓ and seal as this like dainty, demure female. and I don't know if. Part of the writing was to punish her for that decision. I've never really looked at it through that vein. I think you could take a feminist lens and look at it as like the decision to kill her in that order, like as the outcome of her choices, does have an undertone of you know, she shouldn't have done that in the first place. But I think it's a little more complicated than that, which is also what I really like about the story. It's a little bit of I think our earlier conversation just wrong place, wrong time. That's part of the fear. Yeah, that, but also then again, like me knowing Bates Motel brings. bringing that into it. again I think Norma instills in Norman when there's this problematic girl. It's not all women because he does date his friend at one point who's like super sweet, like Norma loves her. She never says anything bad about Emma. Interesting. But so many if there's one little thing like some girl is, I don't know, just a little too confident for Norma's liking or does something like steals money. Like I mean, you're not a terrible person, but like you're obviously doing something we shouldn't do. Yeah. So ⁓ I think it's interesting because my thought was Is kind of similar in like adjacent to that of I don't know, like maybe in the movie, you know, that was the undertone is like she's being punished for that. But that is what Norma instills in Norman and that's kind of what I was like, wow, this girl is doing something that Norma would not approve of. So I was like, she's gonna be a victim because that's a lot of the women that would roll up to this motel, like, I'm in issues, I've been doing drugs, or you know, blah blah blah. Right, like everything anything that like. To your word that confidence where she's not a again, very demure, like timid woman, she's kind of self assured. And she's also having an affair. We know that information. There's that too. I think you make a really good point too, of though, like, even though maybe they didn't have all those complete pieces, there is this sort of scale that maybe Norma is using inside Norman's brain of picking and choosing which women are deserving of her wrath. And maybe they just took that and ran with it for for the show. ⁓ But a great It just it all connects in my brain, like it makes sense that when Marion, when sh I saw her steal the money, I was like, okay, so if she's gonna end up in Bates Motel, this is the perfect scenario because she is the perfect person for Norman to like get all hot and bothered about. Sure. You know, with his mom's thoughts in his head too. Right. ⁓ that's so neat to see how it kind of does tie together with the ongoing story. I don't know how he attracts all these girls. Like he just like I always think that, you know, he's just walking along, he doesn't say much and then And there's girls just coming up and sitting on his lap and in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Like in the very beginning, this girl just comes up and sits on his lap. Here's my number. And it's just interesting how like he just fascinating. All these women who are like that. And then Norma's like, who's this girl? And and it's kind of weird. You're like, why are you jealous? Well, I mean, I think that's the deeper point of their relationship being the problem more so than anything. Is you it's just too disturbing for a young child to understand their parents' behavior. That feels very like possessive and romantic and yeah, crosses all the boundaries. Not to give us too much of a spoiler too, but ⁓ I just thought of this because there's so many elements to Bates Motel. There's so many seasons. Norma has and she tells Norman this out of nowhere. Like of course it's you know, typical narcissistic behavior, like right before he goes to a school dance. My brother raped me. ⁓ wow. So, like, of course, again she's dropping that on him, like, and he's like, What the hell? Like, right. What am I supposed to do with this information? He's all his suit on and everything, and he's just like, Mother. But I just think it's interesting that they ⁓ took that and placed it in Bates Motel kind of almost make this like like Norma didn't even grow up with a normal sense of sure. Like she's traumatized too. So she kind of probably doesn't know how to be an appropriate mother almost. Like she had sex with her brother. So fair point. And again, like I love Like hearing how they took this little bit of breadcrumbs we got about this family history of trauma and took it up the tree. Because that is often how it really happens in real life, right? Like there's some sort of dynamic that gets passed down, that gets passed down, that gets gets passed down, does not always, of course, end in DID and homicide. but yeah, I mean like our psyches are very delicate and it's not hard to fracture them when you've had what's deemed to be a safe relationship become very unsafe. So it's so fast. Now, I definitely want to watch the show you've sold me. You definitely should, yeah. And I know like I'm very comfortable sharing like a lot of my stuff. I've had my own. like psychotic breaks where people have driven me to this point. Yeah. Thankfully I feel so much more healed in these past few years. But like looking back at my past I have and I have had moments where I've just gone so crazy. I don't even know who I am. Like, sure, I have forgotten these moments. Like there's things that I still can't remember. Yeah. and so maybe part of me does empathize to a certain extent with Norman because of that. Like I know and I think that's actually a r a note that I had written down is I I know what it's like to have someone drive you you to a psychotic break and it's really upsetting and it's it's it's really hard to see, you know, someone not even be able to come back from that like Norman. Like I I'm like privileged enough to not have gone that crazy. It's just been, you know, these circumstances that have marked me. ⁓ but it it's really it's really hard 'cause then you don't recognize yourself. Sure. And like you have done those actions, but it's, you know Because parts of your identity when you're that distressed. Yeah. Absolutely. And again, like trauma changes us biologically, right? Physiologically. Like all of these parts of us are trying to create some sort of homeostasis. But sometimes what becomes homeostasis is really dangerous. And it doesn't again always look like this man murdering people in hotels that, yeah, saying things you can't take back, actions you can't take back, and having to really come to terms with that when you weren't at your best. I appreciate your vulnerability because. because I I know you're not the only person who feels that way. This is an experience that a lot of people have of like I lost who I was because of the thing I was going through a hundred percent. So you actually kind of led into my next question beautifully, which was Norman is simultaneously both the victim of his mother and the perpetrator of her horrific violence. How do you hold both of those things at once? ⁓ and does our understanding of someone's trauma change how we assign responsibility for their actions? I love this question. I love it. I love it because also I just re-watched Dexter for the fifth time. And it's a very it's a similar thing with him where ⁓ you know, you learn a lot. ⁓ where His trauma comes from, but he's a serial killer because of it. He kills other serial killers, but he's a serial killer. Yeah. Complicated hero of the story. So I've actually just recently finishing that and then now watching this, like holding those things, two things together, has actually been something I've been reflecting on a lot. Yeah. ⁓ and I reflect on it with like people in my life in like the less extreme situations where people are unhealed. and I'll feel really bad, you know. I don't want to say bad for them, but I understand them. I can I can relate. I have empathy, I can relate even to where they're coming from. Yeah. ⁓ but I see that and I see how I was leading down a certain path to more toxicity and just the same patterns of behaviors that weren't getting me anywhere getting me anywhere and it was probably harming other people too. Sure. ⁓ and so I had a switch and I had to wake up and look at that and grow. And I just kind of as much as I empathize with people who do have this trauma, and again, the one that Norman Bates has is extreme. Sure. But in any kind of case, you have to have boundaries for yourself and for, you know, protection for other people if it is an extreme case. But even with people who are just projecting onto their friends all the time, things like that, you have to have accountability and I'm sorry, but I personally just can't have that in my life. Fair because I feel for you and I want to help and support people. But if they're beyond that or they're unwilling then I to personally step back and in those extreme cases, ⁓ yeah, they have to be tapered off from society. They can't be around they can't be doing these things. And I think you said it beautifully is having empathy for somebody does not condone any and all behavior that person can do or has done. We have to have lines both to protect ourselves and to protect, you know, again a broader society if we're talking about these more extreme examples. And I think it's something that we could all benefit from is learning to hold these seemingly contradictory Things as true at the same time, right? I think I think you have to do that with a lot of things too. Like I I'm personally I've been running my own business for a while. I've stopped doing that now. I'm tapering off from it. I'm going to be a school teacher again. Yeah. There's a lot there's two feelings. I'm very excited about this new job. Yeah. And I'm very sad to let your little baby go. Yeah, like it was my my child. I grew it for five years. Yeah. You know, it's but and that's the thing is we have to be able to To hold those two feelings. And I think that's a language that we've started to develop more nowadays too. Two things can exist at once because a lot of the times I would just allow the other one to take over, or maybe this one. And it you know, it is hard, and it I think it takes practice. Absolutely. I think it takes a perspective shift. Yeah, definitely. But I think once you can start to at least embody that really, then it you know, you handle things more with grace, you see things more clearly, you have healthier. boundaries ⁓ because for a while like even again in the less extreme situations I would try and help people and then I would just give them too much access to me to hurt me so fair and you could tell then like ⁓ they're not even trying to you know work on themselves or look at look inward and I'm like I'm just hurting myself I need to step back from this. Absolutely and I think on sort of the disappointing side of this using my own language is I I do think some people have let their own narratives around they think they're taking steps to grow, they tend to fall back on the like this is because of what's happened. And so it's like you can sort of maybe again have empathy for that struggle and not need to be in that sphere anymore because they are just not capable of being the type of person you need in your space. Yeah. On the less extremes yeah then the in the yeah no all my friends are physical boundaries. Yeah, exactly. We're not crossing major boundaries like that. Alright, so as we're wrapping up, anything from your notes that you wanted to share that we didn't get into? ⁓ I can take a glance. I definitely want to talk about the ending too, because I will say I had like a different reaction to the ending, like because I've been like, this is such a funny movie. Like this like even just the transitions, like the fade out to another scene. Sure. Which total respect. Like I have even taken like a photography class, using analog cameras. I know how hard it was that back at the time. Like, ⁓ it just was very different. But I can't help but laugh. But I will say at the end it I can see how that was very creepy. Like seeing turning the skeleton around, and then they had the like ⁓ flash to the skeleton and then to Norman, and he's like, Yeah, this with the I'm like, I can see how that was like he was moving in weird ways like a contortionist, and I'm like, what is going on here? It's just very unnerving. It is, and I definitely was like, Okay, this is I can see how this is creepy. Yeah, especially for the time, which I think is the part we're coming back to. Yeah. Also, I didn't realize that it took place in Phoenix, Arizona. Yes. Yes, I love that little like nugget of information. Said most of everything. Okay. I appreciate all your insights and now I'm really sold on this TV show. I just have to find the time. Yeah. No, I think I like r once we get rolling I'm very good at ⁓ remembering everything I wrote. Yeah. Well and you kinda led into this that I always like to ask, like, is there anything you think would have hit really differently if you had seen this without knowing anything about it in a dark movie theater, maybe even now, but definitely sixty years ago? Well it's interesting. I feel like I've learned a lot already just from talking with you because I didn't know that they weren't allowed to show A the the color blood and then B like the actual cuts into a person. ⁓ so I feel like if I were back then I would be freaked out, you know? Especially not expecting that. Again, I grew up knowing about the and the shot and the blood and I think they even have that in like big fat liar like What's in everyone? Like he's showering so many times. It's just like someone's showering and you hear that music. So you know it. But I definitely back at that time I would have been freaked out. That ending scene is crazy. e even if just seeing it now, I w probably wouldn't have known that that was Norman dressed up. Right. You know? So I think I would have had a different reaction. I probably seeing it nowadays would have thought some of the, you know, older dated things were funny or interesting. They count out se they show her counting out exactly seven hundred dollars. Right, to buy the car. Do you wanna film them going to the bathroom too? Like They just say th they film really mundane things and I think it's interesting. ⁓ different attention to different details back in the time. Definitely. So ⁓ I think I would have had all those opinions still, but probably would have been more, wow, and ⁓ he's creeping on her. Like, he was so nice though. Like but but I was like, ⁓ well, I know he cut that hole there. Yes. Like I already know this part happened. Yeah, yes. And everything that led us to get here. Everything all the psychology behind it. Exactly. Okay. Yeah, awesome. It's interesting it doesn't end the same in Bates Motel either. ⁓ okay. Yeah, it does not end the same. So but I well now I'm very curious. I will not give that one away. I'm not gonna do that. How many seasons is it? You said it was a lot. Do remember? I feel like it's like between six or eight seasons. ⁓ there's I really missed a lot though. Like I knew it was a thing and I did not remember it was that many seasons. Yeah, no, and again I didn't even know that it was about ⁓ Psycho and and then you mentioned in the beginning too that there's a remake of Psycho. Yeah. I didn't even know that. When is that Vince Vaughn as Norman and Anne Haish as Marion Crane. ⁓ and Zen Collor. What's w when is it from? Maybe like two thousand twelve. ⁓ that was recent though. Yeah, somewhere around there. ⁓ I I think again because I was so in love and am in love with the classic, it being in color, first of all, just took me out of it. It feels like any other horror movie. Yeah. So it doesn't make it very special. And I just don't think maybe because again I think Vince Vaughn had probably been in so many comedies at that point, I had a really hard time seeing like the sweet side of him and then seeing him as dangerous. Mm I just don't feel that way toward Vince Vaughn. I think it actually would have landed better if they picked a more unknown actor. Yeah. ⁓ Where you really believed he was capable of that kind of like insanity and violence. Yeah. I I don't know, it just none of it worked for me. Well, and ⁓ so you just made me think of something else too with with Bates Motel. ⁓ the actor, I'm trying to think of his last it's Freddie something. He's so, so good at the role of Norman Bates. In the show? In the show. ⁓ okay. It almost made me like not even really like Norman Bates in the movie. Yeah, it's hard because I saw Bates Motel first. Sure. So I kind of impartial to that for that reason, but I'm like, Ba Norman Bates in the in the show is just so much I don't know I she just did such a good job. But one thing that it reminded me of too is ⁓ it does he does remind me of my brother. So my brother is on the spectrum. Okay. And he's very awkward and will you know, like be kind and kind of sometimes have that switch and stuff. Interesting. I I forgot that like I'm like, ⁓ that might also be part of why I have some empathy for Norman Bates. It's not the same extremity. Like it just brings up that memory for you. It really does, and especially the act. In Bates Motel for some reason, like in certain scenes, I'm like, Is that my brother? Well, again, I think that's such a great point because where we're at, time, space, casting, does affect it. Like some things really land and some things just don't. And it I think it is very common to say like they remind me of someone, which could be good or bad, or if the actor is so well known you have a relationship with them, I think it's very hard to set part of that stuff aside. Yeah. You know, like for years and years and years, probably a decade or more, I couldn't see Anthony Hopkins. Is anything but Hannibal Lecter. Didn't matter what he was in, I just I couldn't. Like he is Hannibal Lecter to me. And even if it wasn't like a scary movie, I just there was a block there because he just embodied that character so much. So I think that makes sense. If someone kind of brings up a personal thing too, it's harder to fall into the story, or can just kind of switch how you feel about the story. Yeah, exactly. No, for sure. ⁓ yeah, it's like Daniel Radcliffe. He's he's Harry Potter. What are you guys talking about? Like he's trying to be in all these other movies. Fair. Why is Harry Potter? In this movie. Exactly. ⁓ okay, awesome. So as we're wrapping up, I always ask everybody one week from now, what image or moment from this film do you think will live rent-free in your head? I think probably that ending scene. Yeah. With the skeleton and then him like this and the guy holding him down. Yep. Yeah, I I feel like it was just I don't know. I I cause I was taking into consideration how old the movie was. Yep. ⁓ and I was like this would be very scary for for first time gears, especially in the 60s. you know, and it was a little a little funny too, like watching him hold him down and when he's like squirming and everything. Yeah. And it just it does remind me of one of the scenes in Bates Motel towards the end. So it's ⁓ interesting. It's just interesting how some of the stuff overlaps, like even small things that I noticed, ⁓ things about like the highway. Like this used to be the main highway, you know. ⁓ yeah, like they talk about that on the show. The hotel anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Like Norma's like petitioning to like not make the bypass happen and stuff that makes sense. Yeah. Just taking her customers and her prey. Yeah. So yeah, it's just interesting. But yeah, I think that scene will always live rent. That's awesome. It's not the shower scene, it's not. It's just fair. For me, it's definitely the shower scene. Yeah. ⁓ honestly, it's the very, very, very last shot of Norman where you hear his mother talking to her, and it's sort of like you get a glimpse into his internal world. Yeah. there's just something about the expression on his face, it's it's just so unsettling to me and unnerving. And I think because now I've been in the field for so long, and I don't know if this is true of every therapist, that I have two distinct moments in my career where I was in session with someone and they s they change. And it's like every part of me personally had alarm bells going off that this is unsafe, and then clinically, it was almost like I'm interested. Yeah, so I want to figure out like the best way to not put my myself in an unsafe situation and also do the work that we're here to do. There's just something about the expression on his face that rings very true of like that's the major red flag is like and it's like almost physiological you respond to his expression of like this man is incredibly dangerous. And I've had that in session at two points in my career, two different people where it was like something came over them and I I knew like this person could really really hurt me. Yeah. ⁓ and thank God nothing happened. I was able to get out of focus Of those a little emotionally scarred but not physically hurt. ⁓ but yeah, I think they nailed it. I don't know what the cue was or like how his doctor married him, but it's like I didn't notice my brain. I I would be interested to see you as Mary and like you'd be like, ⁓ I really should get out of here because I have all these alarms going off, but I really want to stay and like dissect him. This is one of my challenges as a therapist who's just so amazingly interested in people is I I probably sadly would be the person in the movie who's making dumb choices ⁓ because I either think I can help or because the curiosity got the best of me. Yeah. Like it superseded my internal warning system. It's it's not great. But yeah. ⁓ okay, awesome. So as we're wrapping up, you gave me a show to watch, which is new, but I've been asking everybody, is there a movie that you love, love, love that maybe I haven't seen that you want to give me as homework? Mm. I know you're a show girly, so you did give me a show. So that could be your answer. I did, yes, I gave you a show. ⁓ it was really hard, even in your form you were asking about like movies. Yeah. You liked and I'm like, I don't movies, I don't know. ⁓ I'm a big survivor. Okay. Like survival thrillers. Okay. Do you like those? I mean I like almost everything. This is really not a movie type that I don't watch. Okay. And this is again, this is not by far like my favorite movie or anything. It's just something that popped into my head. Okay. Especially 'cause I like survival movies. ⁓ there's a movie on Netflix called Fall. ⁓ I just saw this. Okay. Yes, ⁓ with Taryn Egerton. I I'm not super familiar with actors, so trying to remember. ⁓ wait, ⁓ no, this is the two girls that climb up the tower. I have seen this one too. I was gonna give a different one. Yeah, it was very good. I sweated through the whole thing. I didn't love like how it all came together. I didn't either. I was actually very upset at the ending. It was, but it was I like I like that one. The tension worked. I'm a sucker for like anything like that. body response for sure. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I was about to say yellow jackets, but that's also a show. Also a show. Yeah. So a show. But I do recommend yellow jackets too. That's okay. I mean, if you think about it, you can send it to me. My goal is that maybe the back half of the year or into early twenty twenty seven to do these episodes again and have you all come back and then interview me based on the movie recommendation. I love it. So if you think of a movie you can let me know. If you can't, I am down to watch the show at eight years of content. You're gonna have I mean it really won't happen probably till twenty twenty seven. ⁓ I never know down to flip the script and we can come back and talk about the show based motel and you can have all your questions ready for me. Well yeah, I I have shows that I could recommend, but I will think about the movie as I'm sure there's movies that I I just can't think of them. No worries. I'm just asking it for fun as we're winding down. Yeah, definitely. But I'd love to to ask you questions in the future. Yes, for sure. So all right. Well, that's it. We've done another episode. I think we had a fantastic conversation, got into some deeper So you never know where it's gonna go. But hopefully, if you're following and listening, you're enjoying all my silly conversations, please like, subscribe, comment. ⁓ you can find me at Scene Interpretation Pod on Insta, Scene Interpretation Podcast.com. If you just want to look at the website, see all of our past shows. Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, and YouTube. If you're interested in following me, it's dr.sophia murphy on IG. Did you want to give your handle? Yeah, so my handle is meal, which is honey and stem. I love it. It's just always a side note. So it's M-I-E-L dot PoleDance. Perfect. Alright, thanks for hanging out with us. Till the next movie. Bye.