Claudine: Hi and welcome back to the Saint fortune telling where Tarot clarifies energy, not fate. I'm Chloe. And if you're new here, we walk through Tarot as a way to understand ourselves, not to predict what's coming, but to make sense of what's already here. Today's episode is one people tend to brace themselves for. And if you've been following the podcast at all, you'll know that in our series of the major arcana, we are now at the devil and the tower. Victoria Frohloff: Thank Thank you. Claudine: These two cards get labeled as bad when really they're just honest. The devil shows us where we feel stuck and the tower shows us what happens when we can't stay there anymore. And I'm very glad I'm not unpacking this one alone. Victoria is back and honestly this kind of conversation suits her. She has a way of sitting with the truth without trying to soften it too much which is why we're friends and which is exactly what the cards ask of us. So Victoria are you ready to go there? Victoria Frohloff: Thank you. Thank understand. I sure am. Claudine: Woohoo, welcome back to the show, thanks for coming. Victoria Frohloff: Thanks for having me. Claudine: So we're going to talk about the devil first as we go through the major arcana. as always, ⁓ picture the card in the Rider Waite deck. We see a horned figure part human part animal sitting above two people who are chained at the neck. a lot of people miss the detail that those chains are loose, that they could come off if they chose to. So this card is not about being trapped. It's about believing you are. The devil represents attachment, habits, patterns. stories, roles, the place where we say I can't when sometimes it's actually I won't. And that's a big thing about this card for me is it is indicative of the stuff we don't want to do. We get to take the easy road when we go with the devil, when we sit with that energy, we'd He doesn't require anything of us. I always sort of say he's a sex, drugs, rock and roll card because he's fun. He doesn't make us own our stuff. He doesn't make us take responsibility. He doesn't make us take any actions to move ourselves forward with him. We stay quite stuck. So Victoria, when you look at the card, what stands out to you first? Victoria Frohloff: you Well, the thing that stands out first to me in this card is just the background. It's a black background. It's not, you mentioned that this card is often labeled as bad. I don't see it necessarily as bad, but it's sort of asking you to look at the dark side of yourself. So when I see the black automatically, I'm thinking, okay, Claudine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Victoria Frohloff: What is it I'm not willing to look at that is keeping me stuck where I am? That's often what's going on. Another thing that strikes me is if you look at the man in the picture, he's got his hand a little bit outstretched towards the woman and the woman sort of has her hands a little bit back as if to say, yeah, not sure. So again, what is it you're being asked to do that you're hesitant about that you don't want? Claudine: Yeah, absolutely. Not sure. ⁓ I that. ⁓ The shows up in readings for me when somebody already knows ⁓ that isn't aligned. But they're still it. So this is the job that you don't want to leave because that would mean you have to look for another job. This is the relationship that you don't want to leave because it's easier to stay. For me, the devil, it's all about getting stuck in those patterns ⁓ of doing the same old thing all the time ⁓ and doing it it's comfortable. I mean, how many times do hear people say that I stayed in a relationship because it was easier than leaving. the devil highlights that When he shows up in a reading for me, I'm always telling my client, ⁓ is something that you should be doing to move forward that you're not wanting to? this is don't give up what you want most for what you want in the moment, You want to lose weight, but it's really easy to eat that chocolate. You want to be sober, but it's really easy to take that drink. that's sort of where that devil sits in that temptation space. What do you think about that? Victoria Frohloff: I agree with ⁓ with everything you said this is ⁓ not a forward-moving card ⁓ You know as you mentioned in the in the beginning the chains could easily be taken off of their necks They could just reach up and take them off. ⁓ So ⁓ it's not a What is holding back? a question of Where are you holding your own self back? Claudine: Hmm. Yes, yep, 100%. Victoria Frohloff: Not that things and circumstances are keeping you stuck. How are you keeping you stuck? Claudine: and if notice the two people in the card that are chained ⁓ are the same two that are in the lovers card in the writer weight deck and the lovers card as well as about choices. ⁓ So this one is what are you choosing? are you choosing to ⁓ not do what you to do? Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: And the thing is, if you're looking at the card closely, they're growing tails and horns because the longer you stay trapped in this energy, the easier it is to stay there. You know, it doesn't require any commitment from you. It doesn't require anything of you. So this for me is like taking the high road versus the low road. And this is where your choice lies. And one thing that I really like about this card and tell me what you think. I read somewhere that it is also identities that we've outgrown that we don't want to release. Victoria Frohloff: Who i like that i hadn't thought of it that way before ⁓ i like that i often think of this as a bit of a mindset card where is your mindset at you know people get stuck in the loops so a loop of negativity you know i have to do this and i have to do that where's your mindset that's negative that's dragging you down that's keeping you in that sort of space that. Claudine: Mmm. Victoria Frohloff: isn't forward moving, but I like that. I like the idea of identities. Claudine: Yeah, because sometimes we're just, we're meant to go forward and we don't. Where do you see people believe that they're stuck when they actually have more agency than they think? Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. ⁓ goodness, well in my reading something that comes up, well two things that come up often are relationships and work. to give you an example, I did a reading recently about a woman who ⁓ feels stuck her relationship. ⁓ And you well we have a house together and we have a trip booked in May and we have this and we have that, but ⁓ I've been for her for about eight months now. ⁓ Claudine: Mmm. Victoria Frohloff: Yet she just renewed her mortgage and she just booked the trip. So the devil came up for her last reading and I said, you really are just keeping yourself here. ⁓ but I have all these things, she says. I said, no, you chose to do all those things and those are things that are forcing you to not make a decision. ⁓ Cause people don't want do the hard things in life. It's hard, hard things are hard. Claudine: Mm. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Victoria Frohloff: and it brings people out of their comfort zone. Nobody likes to go through a breakup, nobody likes to be single, nobody likes to change jobs. It's very uncomfortable. And people often choose to do small little things, or sometimes bigger things like re-sign for your mortgage and book a vacation, so that it gives them an excuse a little bit to stay where they're stuck and to not have to deal with that. It gives them almost an external permission to stay where they are. And they're blaming it on, well, you know, we have a house and we can't pay the fees to break the mortgage. Well, Claudine: Yeah, exactly, where they're not taking that agency. Yep. Victoria Frohloff: that's something that you chose. Claudine: We will always find an excuse to not do the hard things. Have you had a moment in your own life where you realized, ⁓ I'm not actually stuck here? Victoria Frohloff: Yes. Yes, I have. And interestingly, I did pull the devil card. I find it so fascinating when I do readings for myself, when I pull cards for myself. ⁓ almost like I know ahead of time what card is going to come out, because I know people know it's reading. It's reading my own energies. ⁓ yeah, so I've felt really stuck ⁓ various jobs. Especially over the last few years since COVID. So I inevitably ask the question, know, what should I do? I feel stuck, I don't feel like I can move ⁓ don't think I'll find anything better. ⁓ is probably the best I can do. And then the devil pops out and I think, ⁓ boy. ⁓ just my own ⁓ beliefs. And that's really what this card for me is about, is the self-limiting beliefs of Claudine: Right? Victoria Frohloff: I'm stuck. Nobody's stuck. You don't have to do anything. So, you know, I really, when he comes up, I kind of go, ⁓ yeah, bugger, because it's what I need to hear. It's just not necessarily what I want to hear. Yeah. Claudine: Nope. Yep. want. Of course not. And I like this like sort of segue into our next card because we do always have a choice, but we don't always want to accept the consequences of that choice. And so here we come with the tower and the tower is the one that really gets the reaction from my clients from at times. Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: in the Rider Waite deck again to look at the card is a tall that's being struck by lightning. So flames burst out of the top it. There's literally two people that have they're either falling or throwing themselves out of the building. ⁓ The whole bottom of the tower is all jagged. it looks like there's clouds. There's a crown flying off. There's a whole bunch of ⁓ scary imagery. when you're looking at these two side by side, it's definitely some scary imagery, ⁓ but it Not ⁓ I like tower. it is. Disruption, yes. ⁓ But it's not disruption. The tower happens when something's not stable and the truth arrives anyway. So this is not punishment. It is not a punishment card ⁓ most people sort of get the impression that it is. It is course correction. ⁓ And is what the tower does. ⁓ It puts You're like, la la la la la. is where I'm going. ⁓ And the tower goes now you're not supposed to go So I'm to give you a hard right. To get you on your path. The tower is there to put you on the path. ⁓ some of the things that the tower offers ⁓ are ⁓ sudden Breakups. Career shifts, identity shifts, and moments where you can't unsee something. I hate those. Those are the worst. When you're like, ⁓ now that I know this, I can never go back. When you think of the tower, what do you feel? you feel fear or do you feel relief? Victoria Frohloff: I feel a little bit of both. ⁓ say relief because I know that ⁓ not meant for me is about to go away. Fear because it's not on my timeline. So as a self-professed control freak, ⁓ on that one, when the devil comes up, I feel a little bit more comfortable. ⁓ Then when the tower comes up, because the devil, I know I'm choosing to stay in a certain pattern. The tower's gonna remove that for me one way or another, whether I like it or not. especially when I see, when I'm looking at the card and I see the foundation is just sort of really just not solid at all. ⁓ There's all of chaos going ⁓ on. It's little unsettling to look at, ⁓ but... Claudine: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Victoria Frohloff: It's also something that's necessary. Claudine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And here's the thing, right? The tower, you just said it, the tower doesn't destroy what is solid. It removes what was already unstable. And that is a huge message of this card that I always give my clients. I'm like, listen, it's never going to take away something that is meant for you. If it's meant for you, it's meant for you and it's never going anywhere, Because that is built on solid foundation. ⁓ ⁓ Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: is I read once somewhere, I can't remember where that it's divine destruction because it has purpose. It has the purpose to clear out what is holding you back from fully realizing yourself and being who you are supposed to be. And the tower so many times people see that it's starting to come down. They're like, Ooh, there's a crack in this relationship or I'm starting to notice like these things at my job that I'm not such a fan of. And little toxic behaviors here and there. And then they try to fix it. And when you do that, all you do is prolong the process. ⁓ Once the tower starts to crumble, ⁓ this is where tell my clients, stand back, ⁓ stand back, ⁓ let it fall because Only after it is down can you start to rebuild. Victoria Frohloff: Yeah, 100 % and I find the Tower is so interesting because in the moment people don't always realize that this was meant to crumble. I did a reading not long ago, well, yeah, probably about a year and a half ago actually, ⁓ for a girl who was ⁓ having issues in her relationship, issues in her marriage and Claudine: Mmm. Victoria Frohloff: She got the tower card. And she really didn't like that and know everything's fine and we're perfect together and I don't understand what's going on. Anyway, her husband filed for divorce about a week later. And she called me and we talked about it. She's also a friend of mine, so, and we talked about it. And I said, know, I said, but weren't there signs? You said everything was perfect, but if you really think about it, was that really on a solid foundation? Claudine: Wow. Victoria Frohloff: They got married because she got pregnant. They had, communication issues, nothing in common. ⁓ And she kept trying to it and trying to make it so that it was okay. And the tower actually just did that for her. The universe came in and said, no, we're done here. ⁓ And ⁓ after the fact, was relieved because she didn't realize the situation that she was in was really not a good one. Claudine: gonna say the tower is sudden usually when it shows up and I agree with you that it's you haven't seen the signs you haven't looked for the signs because the tower is not like your first chance it's not like ⁓ here you go I'm just gonna take all this away the tower ⁓ only coming after you've been nudged you've been shoved a little maybe smacked upside the head ⁓ universe is trying to get through to you The tower comes when you're not listening. Victoria Frohloff: ⁓ yeah, when you've ignored the signs ⁓ and have not taken action on your own is when the tower comes in and says, sorry, gonna do it for ya. Claudine: Got it. That's it. Because now it's time. Now it's like the universe is like, OK, let's go. I have things for you to do. I have people for you to meet. I have purpose for you and you need to get out of your own way to get there. ⁓ When put these two together, the devil is awareness. And the tower is action, whether you choose it or not. the longer we stay in something that we know isn't aligned, more likely we will experience it as a tower. I like these two ⁓ in ⁓ way because it allows us. The time. you pull the devil card a couple of times start looking around. Start looking at what's going on in your life start looking at maybe where you're keeping yourself stuck. Because ignored truth builds pressure. And what happens when pressure builds too high is. the Victoria Frohloff: Yeah, I often tend to look at these cards as the if-then cards. So if you are going to choose to stay stuck, then the tower is going to have to come in and unstuck you. I just made up a word. But yeah, and I do find these two cards often come up in the same reading for somebody. If I get one, I almost always get the other. Claudine: Yes. Yep. And unstuck you. Exactly. Victoria Frohloff: And not always in the same spread, but typically if I see one, I know I'm gonna see the other. I think in a lot of cases, ⁓ the tower just needs happen because I don't know that it's something we would do on our own. I don't know that it's something we have the strength to do on our own ⁓ because you see the like again, that foundation, it's not solid. We don't have the strength to do it on our own. just, somebody has to kind of kick that. out from under us and say, yep, we're done here. Claudine: The tower just tells you what the devil has been whispering. Victoria Frohloff: Ooh, I like that. Claudine: Yeah, it just shows you there. Where have you seen the progression from quiet knowing to unavoidable change? Victoria Frohloff: Ooh, in my own life or in my readings? Claudine: Either or. Victoria Frohloff: In my clients that I see on a regular basis, there's a reason they come to me on a regular basis. And the cards give them the quiet whisperings. They give them the guidance. They give them the tools that they need, the energies that are going on right now to move a little bit forward. And I find often people don't act on it. They go, ⁓ that was fun. And then they leave. Yeah, that was fun, thanks. And then they leave. Claudine: Mm-hmm. Right? See you later! Victoria Frohloff: And then I talked to them, six months later, because nothing has changed in that they want to know what's going on now. ⁓ And, eventually just ⁓ are pushed to anyway, which is when the tower starts to come out. Claudine: Well, that's it. if they're not going to listen, ⁓ you ⁓ I read for people that have come often ⁓ and keep getting the same energy in the cards. And I'm like, listen, if you're not going to change what you do, ⁓ I'm not to waste your money because we're still going to get this until you until you change what you do. ⁓ we're going to move on to a reading right now and the question is this is ⁓ obviously has to do with devil tower energy. ⁓ I know something in my life isn't working, but I keep avoiding dealing with Any of my listeners relate to that? ⁓ So repeat that. ⁓ I know something in my life isn't working, but I keep avoiding dealing with it. What do I need to see clearly right now? So we're going to pull three cards and card number one is going to be where I feel stuck and that's representing the devil energy. Card number two is what truth is breaking through and that is the tower energy because you know if we go back to the tower for two seconds while we're doing this, The tower cracks and lets the light through. So what truth is breaking through in card two and card three is what supports change. So let's see card one. Victoria Frohloff: Okay. . Claudine: ⁓ So card one, Where I Feel Victoria Frohloff: Yep. Ooooo Claudine: right is our eight of swords and for those that don't have the cards in front of you the eight of swords is a woman who is wrapped in some linen I guess and has a blindfold on and is has swords all around her so she is this is the you know in my in close speak this is the trapped card so you're just feeling stuck where do I feel stuck ⁓ everywhere This has everything to do with like that. Just feeling like I cannot move. If I move, I'm going to I'm going to walk into all these swords and I'm to cut myself in pieces. And the thing about the eight of swords is all of swords is mental anxiety. It is ⁓ mental stress. is thoughts and mindset. when I get the eight in it's very much like You just feel like you can't go anywhere, but you're actually lying to yourself. It is completely an illusion because if you look at the card closely, there's nothing blocking her path. There's nothing actually in front of her. So she could just walk that linen that's wrapped around her isn't tied. So it's going to fall off when she starts to move and then she can take off her blindfold. you're feeling stuck feeling stuck. Literally, this is just like the most stuckiest, stuckest. energy that you could possibly get for this, Right? in this way, this card for me represents just the illusion of being stuck. Victoria Frohloff: See, you made up a word too! Yeah, and I agree. And one thing about that card that strikes me is, you know, she's got little puddles of water in front of her. They're tiny little puddles. So when she starts to move forward, it's going to be uncomfortable, but it's not going to be a monstrous, life-threatening, scary thing. It's just a little puddle. She's gonna get her feet a little bit wet and have some wet socks. And that's... Claudine: Mm-hmm. Victoria Frohloff: ⁓ it's going to be ⁓ as dreadful she thinks it's going to be when she starts to move forward. Claudine: remember that when you get the eight of swords, it's really like it's just an illusion. So card number two is what truth is breaking through, which represents that tower energy. And we got the two of coins or the two of pentacles, whichever you want to call it. And this shows like almost like a jester type energy juggling a couple of coins. And in the background, there's a ship. There's a couple of ships that are going up and down on the waves. the truth that's breaking through ⁓ is you juggle. You can do this. You can manage what you have. The two is very much imbalance with itself. You have him juggling these two coins back and forth, but he's not stressed out. He's dancing while he's doing it and he's dancing because he has his priorities in order. And for me, the center of ⁓ there's an sign on this card, which is where what's holding the coins ⁓ and in center for me is his priority. So as long as he's juggling everything around that central point of his priority, can handle anything. So that for me is the truth that's breaking through is you can handle it. You just need to prioritize. So if your priority, for example, is your mental health, nothing comes before that. It's simple. Nothing comes before that. And then you can manage everything. But if you allow things to take precedent over your mental health, if that is your priority, then you're going to drop everything. Victoria Frohloff: Thank Claudine: because you are no longer a priority. And those ships in the background for me just say, you know what? Life has its ups and downs. And when we come to accept that, it's a lot easier. How do you feel about that too? Victoria Frohloff: I find it comes up for me often when it is a matter of getting organized, but it's also a matter figuring out what you're going to manage and what you're not. Maybe it's time to delegate a little bit. ⁓ Maybe for me, those ships in the background mean ups and but they also to me signify things that you could maybe let somebody else take care of. ⁓ Claudine: rate. Victoria Frohloff: Pick what you need to do, make it learn to balance it. For me, the twos are all about, ⁓ especially that card, it's about balancing. So what am I gonna balance and what am I gonna maybe let go of? Maybe let someone else take care of ⁓ Maybe... ⁓ but it go all together, it's not important to me in my life. Claudine: Yep. Those are all good points. as we're looking through even just these first two cards where I feel stuck ⁓ is I'm just ⁓ And number two, number two, well, two and card two ⁓ is I can I can handle it. I can handle it. And then card number three, I actually really love this is what supports change ⁓ is our Knight Pentacles and our Knight of Pentacles ⁓ is ⁓ Victoria Frohloff: Ta-da! Claudine: slow the fuck down for me, right? Is I'm going to get there when I get there. There is no big rush to make this happen right now. It is not the end of days, I'm moving forward and I'm steady in my forward motion. I am grounded and I am making progress. ⁓ Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: This is such a grounded, dependable, consistent energy in that night of Pentacles. that's what supports the change. ⁓ where in your head are you thinking, A, it has to all happen at once? ⁓ Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: It doesn't. It doesn't. You can juggle it. You can, like you said, delegate some things, prioritize others, because no matter what, you're still moving forward. Victoria Frohloff: I find people tend to want quick solutions. ⁓ They things to happen quickly. ⁓ And Knight of Pentacles, when it comes up in readings, I find he frustrates people a little bit because I have to tell them that ⁓ A, need to slow down ⁓ and you're gonna get there, ⁓ but not gonna be fast. So you just have to be patient. You have to learn to be patient. ⁓ So, know, when we talk about what supports change, Stop having these expectations that it all needs to be fixed right now. It's not going to be. Claudine: feeling a little called out here. Now it's all good. Not on air. Victoria Frohloff: ⁓ I'm sorry. Would you like a reading flow? But yeah, so I really just feel like ⁓ he shows up when people need to slow down and they need to, sometimes it's just your thoughts. know, people have so much going on in their brains and they wanna get everything done and they wanna have everything figured out and you can't. Just take some steps forward. Doesn't matter how fast you go. Claudine: Yes. Definitely feeling called out here. ⁓ This eight, but the eight of Pentacles, like what you're saying is absolutely right because the eight of Pentacles is a mental card, right? It's it's to deal with what I said, Pentacles. Yes. Eight of Swords is a mental card and it's to deal with the intellect and the thoughts. So you yeah, bang on there. Bang on. Victoria Frohloff: ⁓ I need to... Mm hmm. Eight of swords. Yeah. Yeah. Claudine: ⁓ Victoria, what helps you to come back yourself when things feel intense? Victoria Frohloff: ⁓ boy, that's a good question. So, grounding. are days when ⁓ I don't feel grounded and I stuff a tourmaline in my bra and call it a day and say, you know, this is how I'm grounding today. ⁓ Claudine: Hmm. Victoria Frohloff: I need to be more grounded. need to, because I do tend to have a little bit of, a little bit of the eight of swords energy sometimes. Meditation as well, Claudine: ⁓ meditation for me is, ⁓ is a short couple of minute exercise to ⁓ refocus and clear my mind. I am not a meditator to connect with spirit. and get messages and stuff and those that sit and meditate for an hour or whatnot. I love you all and I don't know how you do it but for me my meditation is to just get me out of the eight of swords thinking is to pull me back into okay this is where I'm at right now. Victoria Frohloff: Yeah, I'm that way too. That's how I use it. And I don't use those tools enough. ⁓ Claudine: Yeah, are there for us when we want to use them. You know, Tara was just one of them. ⁓ I was I some people in the store in the known village last night doing some reading, doing a reading, ⁓ and ⁓ they never in there before. And one of them hadn't been even exposed to sort of this world ⁓ of, rituals ⁓ intention setting and stuff that. And I looked around the store and I mean, we have so much in there in ways of of tools. And I said, all of this, these are just tools. You know, you have to learn how to use the tool. I said, in and of itself, a candle is a candle. But when you draw a dollar sign on it and burn it with the intention that it's going to attract financial abundance to yourself, you're setting the intention using this tool. I said, don't forget the hammer doesn't build the house. The person holding the hammer, builds the house. ⁓ of this Victoria Frohloff: Mm-hmm. Claudine: meditating, pulling cards, getting quiet, grounding. Those are all just tools that we have at our disposal to be as centered and calm and connected to the universe as we can be. for all of the listeners out there where in your life are you being asked to see something clearly before it has to break open? Victoria Frohloff: Okay. Claudine: So thanks for tuning into this episode, everybody. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed recording it with Victoria. This is, I love having Victoria on. have such honest conversations. So thank you again, Victoria, for being here. Victoria Frohloff: Thanks for having me, Chloe. Always a pleasure. Claudine: love having you and and we tried to record this one a couple of days ago but like there was just like some powers that be that did not want us to record the other night so this went off without a hitch tonight so that was awesome if you're enjoying what you're hearing i encourage you to share and follow the podcast Whether you're on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, or iHeart, the more people we have listening to this stuff, think the better this world will be as we all learn how to hold ourselves responsible for our stuff. And tarot is just a way of doing that. If you want to support the show, you can always do that at buy me a coffee. And of course you can find everything at this ain't fortune telling.com So until next time, trust what's showing up ⁓ and pull with intention.