Kat Thorne: Welcome back to the Positive Habits Podcast. I am thrilled to have a wonderful guest on with me. is it Matthew or do you prefer Matt? How should we refer to you in this episode? Most people call me Matthew. Okay, Matthew. So lovely to have you on today. ⁓ welcome to the podcast. Lovely to be here. Yeah. So we ⁓ met a couple of well, maybe a month ago now, because I did ⁓ an interactive online event for your company, Armstrong Watson. Yeah, that's right. So every once in a while we'll get an email inviting us to a seminar. And there could be a whole host of things. It's a accountancy practice. And a lot of the times you attend and halfway through you tend to maybe check emails. Even dare say pick up the phone. But I think and I'm not just saying this, Kat, with yours I was just fixed, looking at the screen, taking it in. A lot of what you said. Just made sense. And I think sometimes when we use the word simple, people sometimes see that as a bit of a negative. But the simple message and the simple way you put it across was so absorbable, easy to understand, and it just made sense. So I got a lot out of it and then I reached out to you afterwards. Yeah, I'm so thrilled you did. And obviously it's it's such a delight for me to hear things like that because I've sp I've worked Really hard to develop a way of sharing what I've learned through my own lived experience and sharing this knowledge. And it's funny because I remember someone saying to me a little while ago, I can't believe you get paid to tell people stuff they already know. But this is the nature of the world that we live in. I think we have almost lost so so much connection with the basics. That the basics seem too basic and too simple that we're looking at over here when we're actually it's it's actually inside of ourselves to to make this very small change. So but before we get into the episode, of course I'm gonna have to ask you, did you start creating a new habit and how is it going? I did. So a lot of people in our office went for the cold shower, but that's not me. One of things I mentioned was getting up early and I used to be Always up early and I'd immediately go out and I've rekindled that habit. So my alarm is set for eleven minutes past five every morning. I don't know why it's that time, but it just I get up and I do a five K we've had a bit of rain this week here in the northeast, but sometimes walking in the rain makes sense as well. But it's a nice habit I'm in. I love that. And and what ⁓ what do you think the impact's been on you? How do you think What what noticeable difference have you seen? I think it's that sense of accomplishment. I think when you set yourself a goal, it can obviously go one of two ways. You cannot do it, your behaviors don't follow your intentions, and you feel quite down on yourself, you can be hard on yourself. But when you do it, there's that little sense of achievement. You're not doing it for anyone else. You're just looking after yourself, you're doing the right thing for you. You know it's the right thing, but we don't always do the right things by ourselves. Absolutely. Do you think it's had any impact on you, like personally or professionally? I just feel a little bit more alive when I turn up at the office. I know I've done something. I know I've started the day the best way I could. And therefore, maybe it's not always tangible and it's not always obvious, but when you start the day. The best way that you can, then you hope that has a knock on effect through the rest of the day. Yeah. I mean, and and even when you say it literally sends a shiver down my spine when you just said, I feel a bit more alive. Like this is life that we're living here and now. And yet I think one of the reasons I love what I do so much is because I know that so many people I'm speaking to feel like I used to feel almost just like you're going through the motions, even if you've got a great life. You can still feel like you are not fully present in your own life. And the feeling of a life. I really want you to give the cold shower another go, because that is wild animal energy right there. I'll leave that with you. It's one of my favorite quotes, and I might do it a disservice. It was by that Confucius, and he said something like, A man has two lives, and the second one begins when he realizes he only has one. ⁓ Just think, yeah, we have this one chance, this one life, and you've got to make the most of it. Absolutely. So, how is it possible? One of the things, one of the reasons I wanted to get you on the podcast, and I was really excited when you emailed me was you have or had a stammer. It's hard to imagine now having this very fluid conversation with you. I stammer, yeah, yeah. You haven't stammered at all in this episode so far. So tell take I guess Kat, it's because I'm honest. And if I try to hide it, if I try to present myself as this fluent speaker, as this perfect speaker, then there's a chance I might crumble. But I always go into speaking situations now where my primary goal is just to be authentic, just to be honest. And if it means every once in a while I have to exaggerate certain techniques, then I'm happy to do that. But it wasn't always like that. I developed numerous very bad habits growing up in my childhood, probably down to my stamina. So let's let's start there. You know, when did the stamina start and how did it affect you as a as a young young boy? Think, according to my parents, it was just always there. Even when I was learning to speak at three or four, there was prolongations, there was struggle, there was blocking. I think when you're at junior school and you're not that self-aware, it doesn't really impact as much. Then I hit secondary school. I was 11, went to a much bigger school with strangers. You try and fit in, and all of a sudden you feel as though you're the odd one out. And it impacts every single thought. From the moment you wake up to just going to bed, every single thought you have is impacted by the stammer. Every hour of every day, it was like walking through a little minefield. And even when you didn't stand on one of the devices, there was still that anxiety, that worry, that fret. How will I get through this? And it hurt me. It really hurt me. And it's also cat exhausting. Always having to think a few steps ahead. Sort of worried about what would happen or what might happen. And even when it didn't materialize and I didn't have to speak. I'd already exhausted all that energy, all that worry of what if the teacher asked me, what all of a sudden if I have to read out loud in class? And I know stammas affect different people in different ways, but mine really hurt me. And I'll be honest, hate's a strong word, but I hated having a stammer. How it made me feel, how it made me look, how it made me sound. Completely understandable. I mean, it I I cannot imagine. And actually, it makes me think about when I shared with you in that interactive session where we met that in 2016 I woke up and had no feeling in my body whatsoever. And that feeling of not being able to have access to your legs. And it just made me think of that when you were saying that, how much we all us able-bodied people take that for granted. And I've never had to have that concern or that worry or that. stress that you have lived with your life as to how communicating being such a a natural part of us ⁓ as of human nature I I cannot imagine how challenging that must have been for you. It's not only natural, Kat, it's important. And I know we live in a world these days where AI not only can write your emails, it can make it sympathetic, heartfelt. But I honestly believe you only show your real personality when you speak. And it's not just about communicating, it's about connecting. Yes. And I think to be able to connect with people, the best way is through your own personality by speaking. And I wasn't stupid. I had all these thoughts, all these ideas, all these things that I wanted to say, but I just didn't have the capacity, the vehicle to be able to express myself. I think I used a phrase a while ago, the library was full, but the doors were locked. And that's how it felt. I just couldn't let go and express myself. So what happened? You know, how did it affect you kind of growing up and then becoming an adult? And obviously we're we're having this beautiful conversation now where I wouldn't even know that you had that you had this this history with with stammer, but what has happened along the way to get you to this point? Because there'll be people listening who might be able to relate with a different in a different way, but something that's holding them back. Yeah, I think you reach a breaking point. For some people that come onto the course that I'm involved with, that I'm part of, it might be a one off event. So it might be a wedding speech, a best man's speech. That terrified, all of a sudden, the thing, I'm gonna have to do something about it. For me, it was just constant chipping away. It wasn't just one event, it was thousands, thousands of bad experiences that I just didn't like. And I think for me, the straw that broke the camel's back, I was at Leeds University. I was doing a subject called mineral engineering. And again, I chose engineering because. I thought there wasn't much speaking involved. So across my life, my stammer, I allowed it to dictate so many things. Choices about university, but even on a day-to-day basis, choices of what I ate. So I always give the example. I spoke to my mum not long after I went on my first course, and we had the best, longest conversation I've ever had with my mum. Had my first real chat with my mum, aged 22. And part of the conversation, I said, Right, when do you think that I think about my stamina when we eat out as a family? And she said, Well, I think it's when the waiter waitress comes over and you have to order. I said, No, it begins at the start. As soon as we walk in, I'm looking for the best chair. The chair where I think maybe the waiter-waitress will hover behind me and I can point to the menu. Then When I get the menu, I don't think about what I want. I just think about what words I can say. And then when you're having that little conversation beforehand about what you're gonna eat, I don't ever commit. Because you can bet your bottom dollar. If I said I was going to have a certain thing, then when it came to ordering, I wouldn't be able to say that. I never ordered steak because it comes with that supplementary question: how do you want it? I hope, and it rarely happened, I hope the person before orders exactly what I want, so I can just mumble, I'll have the same. And then when it comes to me ordering, I just order the food that I can say and spend the next hour and a bit just eating food that I don't like. So in answer to my own question to my mum, how often do I think about my stamina when eating out? It wasn't just the ten seconds of ordering. It was a whole two hour experience that shaped and spoiled many meals out. I never told anyone that, but that's how it was every time I ate out. And again, something that most people would take completely for granted is like the way you've explained that has actually made me feel quite emotional thinking about all of the different thought processes that you've had. Whereas I think most people wouldn't think Which seat are they sitting in? Or of course we all like to order the things we really want to eat. And to think that you've almost suffered ⁓ many times and also that the people that around you haven't noticed or been party to that. That's really quite quite incredibly impactful, isn't it? On that would have that would have been quite damaging. How do you think it affected you? Because I hated my stammer, I did everything I could to hide it. And I was one of those I'd rather have been seen as rude or ignorant or aloof than being seen as someone with a stammer. That's the shame that I put on it. And what's remarkable, no one else did. It was me who decided to put that weight, that gravitas on my stammer. I hated it that much. And we talk about habits. Some of the habits that I developed. I don't know if there were more habits or hurdles. But I went into a habit where I realized if I sniffed, I could maybe say my name. So rather than just saying Matthew, it became Matthew. In the hope that no one would notice. And then all of a sudden I needed two sniffs. And then a week later I might need a different noise, a sniff and a Matthew. But again, I felt as though I was. Clever I was getting away with these things. And those little tricks, those bad habits, they only last a certain time. And all of a sudden I was doing four sniffs, three ums, and I sounded just as uncomfortable, in my mind, just as ridiculous when I was trying to say Matthew and struggling. And then it comes to avoiding. I developed as many people do who stammer, they start substituting words. They start. Avoiding, and I remember a few times calling myself by a totally different name, and that was one of the most shameful things. My mum and dad chose the word Matthew because they liked it. That's who they saw me as. And for their own son to be that terrified to be able to say the name that he felt the need to switch it to something else just because he wanted to hide the shame of his stamina. That probably hurt me more long term because I I'd felt Like I'd let my parents down on that occasion and many more. It's really tough. It's really tough. So what happened? What was the the turning point? Like how did you get from like having to kind of compensate for even just being able to say your name, having these experiences when you were eating out and I'm sure many other occasions? How did you get to become this incredibly confident, contagiously infectious person that you are that that is sitting in front of me today? March twenty-eighth, nineteen ninety-six. Okay. So just over thirty years ago. Okay. Just over thirty years ago, my life changed forever. And again, I went on a program and I tried all sorts of speech therapy, NHS, conventional, acupuncture, hypnotherapy, you name it, I'd given it a go. And all with no success whatsoever. And I would never point the finger at them, I'd never speak. Poolie of them. They all tried their best. They were highly educated, all professional, all professional speech therapists. And then a really strange event happened. My mum's friend was on holiday up in Scotland and she was running to get a bus. The bus pulled off, and in the bus shelter was a discarded newspaper. Picked it up. She read an article about a person who'd been on this course. She came back and handed it to my mum. And a few weeks later, I was on the same course myself. And just walking into that room, no one was a professional speech therapist, but every single person, the instructors, the organizers, the coaches, all had a stammer. They'd all walked in my shoes. And what I flippantly thought, we're not professionals, but we're experts, because we've had to deal with this. On a minute by minute basis. Every single day of our lives, it's affected us. And just to be in a room full of strangers, that connection was instant. And they would talk about some of the ludicrous things they would do. I remember chatting with one girl who said, I'm a size five shoe. Most of my shoes are a size seven. Now obviously this was pre-internet days. And she was that nervous. She'd walk into a shoe shop. And just say, I'll have those in a seven. She wanted to say five, but couldn't. Presumably she couldn't say six as well. The only word she could get out is a seven. So spent her time with blisters, walking around in size two up shoes, just rather than showing the person in the shoe shop that she had a stammer. And every fluent speaker must think, well, it's bit weird. And every person with a stammer would say, Yeah, I'd have done that, exactly the same. So I felt as though I'd met people I couldn't connect with. And so the course again talk about habits. I just learnt a new way of breathing and this new way of speaking. And we kind of equated to this iceberg where the top ten percent is all physical that everyone can see. Under the surface, the psychological part where no one can see. And I guess if I was to sum it up, it was just about being honest now. From now on. No more hiding, sell people, short people as well. And there's a technique without going into too much details where you almost reach a stage you're happy to stammer on purpose. To desensitize yourself to show your listener, hey, I'm ⁓ not a normal fluent speaker. I stammer, but I own it. And my little son Felix. He got diagnosed with autism and he's now 13. He's a brilliant footballer, such a happy, engaging kid. And he owns his autism and he tells people. And I'd like to think that I've helped him do that. But he's always reminded me, just whatever your difference, own it. And be comfortable with it because other people appreciate that. It's an incredibly inspiring story, Matthew. And I I really truly appreciate you having the vulnerability and also the time to share it on the podcast. I think this is a story of much it's it's much greater than having a stammer. It's it's really a story of how to be yourself. And I think I don't know if you agree with this, but I in my work I see so many people not feeling able to be themselves. And and maybe that's due to their own their own hist like their own past or their self-limiting beliefs or other people around them. But I also felt in my past I was in a relationship for a long time where I couldn't be my full self because of that that that person's their own fears. But It's really it's really heartbreaking, as we said, you get one life and it's heartbreaking to think that people are not able to be themselves. Yeah. Like there you have that that's really heavy, isn't it? To be wearing a mask and to have all of that on your shoulders. Exactly. And my wife will always say I'm a bit of a people pleaser and I try and engage with people, try and get to know people. And kind of want people to like me. And what I've realized, there must be nothing worse than a person not liking you, but you haven't shown your real self. You've tried to be this different fake person. And I totally realise not everyone's going to like me, but at least they're going to see the true Matthew. And if they choose not to like that, that's fine. That's absolutely their prerogative. But I hope I'm always going to give that. authentic version of myself. And for me that's just about being honest. And when you're honest, you're totally comfortable. And I always say to fluent speakers, imagine if I said to you or someone who's got no qualification in law, right, you're going to be a judge, you're going to go to the nearest high court and you have to preside over a really big case. And they start thinking about it and well, I haven't got any qualifications. I'm not sure what I'm doing now. I'll have to act, I'll have to bluff it. And it's those sort of anxieties that I used to have. I used to pretend. I used to try and act. I was a normal, fluent speaker. I never have been cat. I never will be. I'll always be a person with a stammer. Working hard every day to be a good, happy communicator. But I also think that without blowing my own trumpet, when it comes to things like public speaking, which I love. I'm probably better than average. I get asked into schools to speak to assemblies, talk about my experience at school having a stammer, and I get invited back. So I'm obviously making a little bit of a nice impact. And I truly believe that I'm at my best when I'm at my most honest. Yeah, I t I love that. And I think there's a big bright future for you ahead of you ⁓ speaking because speaking and Is such a powerful way of of helping people. And that's what I've found over the years. And it's funny because I nearly didn't start my own speaking career because of fear. And it it's funny, it's almost like that sliding doors moment. And you've got to be, and I think Chimp Paradox is one of the best books I've ever read. And I say that or everywhere I ever get the chance, because I think that really teaches you about your thoughts and which ones are supporting you and which ones are sabotaging you. And sometimes in life you've just got be bold and take risks and and see failures as redirections and lessons and So what I know you're working for Armstrong Watson and I'm a big fan of theirs and and hope that we will do more work together in the future. But outside of your role in accountancy, what what kind of lights you up? How have you used what you've learned to help other people? A really enjoyable yeah. Said when we were chatting a while ago. Armstrong Watson gave me this brilliant opportunity. I mentioned about when we were quiet in the Northallton office. I ran one of the little workshops that we do on the Stamarin course. All around presentation skills and public speaking. When the email went out, it was very much presentation skills. Because if I'd put public speaking in the headline, then the emails would have all been deleted. People are terrified. And I just thought, yep, it'd be a one-off. It wouldn't happen again. And the four people I worked with came back into the main office in North Allerton. And they all really enjoyed it. And they all felt as though they got a lot out of it. So all of a sudden, everyone in North Allerton gave it a go. I thought that was a full stop, but word spread to head office. And early on this year, I had pressure and the privilege. Of going around three of our other officers, working with the trainees, and just this is a workshop. This is how we're going to develop. This is how you're going to show your personality. And what we said, we're not going to go from a two to a 10 in two hours. But if you can move in the right direction, if you can go from a two to a four, and some people already were super confident and were already at an eight. Well, if you can get up to a nine. And then continue to practice, continue to work on these. If you get an opportunity to make a little presentation, put your hand up. These are all learning experiences. And going back to something you said earlier about making that jump, one big question is, Kat, what's the worst thing that can happen? And I could spend the rest of my life just doing accounts, but I volunteered to do this. And within Armstrong Watson, I think it's been the best thing I've done. And the worst thing that could have happened, they could have said no. And it'd still be in the same place. And that's fine. I enjoy my job. But the fact that I asked and I pushed and I put forward my case and the fact that they were willing to say yes opened up this whole new world. Opportunities that I never thought I had until eighteen months ago. I love that. And actually I've got I've got another thing and I I've shared this on quite a few episodes because it came from another podcast guest. The best that could happen. Like I just love that so much. I've always lived by the what's the worst could happen. It's helped me, it's nudged me in directions where I've been absolutely terrified. But I really also love asking myself, what's the best that can happen? And as soon as I said that, you smiled. And that's because when you start to allow yourself to think, what is the best that could happen? You start to think, wow. ⁓ my goodness, this could happen, this could happen, this could happen. And then it's much harder for you to reject it, whatever it is you're trying to do. So I believe we can create our own stories, our own lives. You know, we we've all got a past, we've all got things that have happened to us, we've all got trauma, we've all had lost people, we've all had difficult times. But from here on out, I believe you get to write the chapters and and you don't have to. stay in the same situation and it is just about maybe making that one brave decision like you approaching Armstrong and Watson or making one small positive habit change, whatever it is. So what what would you like to see happening with this newfound love for helping people to improve their speaking skills, albeit under the guise of presentation skills? One area I would love, and it's quite a topical, I think Last week they were talking about the number of younger people who are finding it very difficult to get work. And I just think, as we've said, speaking's important and making a good impression, a good honest impression in a job interview is so important. I suspect AI helps write most people's CVs, so it's going to be hard to distinguish between people's CVs. But maybe having that little bit of charisma, that sparkle, that shine when you go into an interview and chat with people. And what I would love is to go into colleges, go into universities, and just run these little presentational workshops, work with people on a in a small group environment. And again, these aren't complicated things. Much like what you teach, it's very simplistic and it's things that Everyone knows that, but we choose for some reason not to do them and not to practice them. Our behaviors don't follow our intentions. So all we do is have one or two occasions and then with stop becoming a habit. And I honestly think if I had that opportunity or if I make that opportunity for myself, where I could go into local colleges, go into Teeside University that's just up the road, this is what I'm offering. On a trial basis and this might help some of your students have anxieties or have are nervous about presenting or being interviewed. This might just give them that one percent. I love that. And I I'm very excited to see where that takes you. And I'm sure that'll be a very interesting next path for you. And just one thing I always ask my guests before we round up the podcast episode is what is what is your number one positive habit that you either do regularly or daily that really helps you stay mentally and physically strong, would you say? I've developed several habits. And one of the things is with the course, with this new way of breathing, I get up every morning and practice my breathing. So as other people, the first habit of the day might be brushing the teeth or making a coffee. I get up and I do 15 minutes worth of what's called costal breathing. This is the The technique that I was taught on the very first morning. So I do that. I then leave a few voice notes to people, coaches, and friends, and it just helps me warm up for the morning. So my first two habits would be breathing and just so that's my stretching for the day. People often talk about the sport of speaking, and I see this as a sport where I can develop. can become a lot better. And what do you think how do you think that better? I think physically it sets my diaphragm, but it's more psychological. I just know I've given myself the best start of the day. I know that I've done the right thing. And it's too easy at times. ⁓ let's hit the snooze button. Let's just scroll through the phone. Or let's do something else and let's just make it eight minutes worth of breathing. I know I'd be shortchanging myself. I know I'd be cheating myself. And I'd live the rest of the day thinking I could have done better. And as I said, I'm a people pleaser. And probably the person I want to please most now is myself. And that's not me being selfish as though, hey, everything revolves around me. It doesn't, but I know that I'm worth it. I should give myself the best opportunity. And the best start of the day. And the best way for me to do that is doing the right habits. And someone said to I'm just gonna leave you this thought, someone said to me in one of the talks recently, if I can't give myself 10 minutes, then there's something really wrong. And even I I get I still get pushback sometimes. I there was a talk I did a couple of weeks ago with a really, really ambitious high-performing team. And This lady, I thought she was trying to sabotage me mid mid-talk. And she put her hands up and she said, We've all heard all of this before, but I've got, you know, four children, I've got a busy career, like I just don't have time for any of this. And this was quite early on in the talk. And I'm quite a seasoned, you know, pro now at this. So I've had lots of objections that I've handled over the years. And I just hoped That she would let me continue and then she would see. And to my pure joy, towards the end of the talk, she put her hand up again and she said, Maybe there is some truth in what you're saying, and maybe I might be possibly making some excuses. Now, I fully accept if you've got a full-time job and you're raising four children, you are busy. Like there's no doubt in my mind that you are. But I still think it's a self limiting belief to believe you can't give yourself ten minutes. And that doesn't have to be without your children, by the way. Like that could be doing a kitchen dance party with your kids. It it could be reading with them. It doesn't have to be something alone. But I think it's easier to say, I don't have time, we've heard this all before, than to actually do the hard thing. And I think you make it fit around your lifestyle. And the example I always give to other people on the course. My drive into where I am in Middlesbrough to Northallerton is half an hour. Now I could listen to some nice music, I could listen to the radio, I could listen to a podcast, or I could use that half hour to practice. And therefore, I head in early. But I've been out to India a few times on these courses to help out. And all of a sudden there's a Hundreds of people in India who I know who I've saved in my phone and because of the time difference, they're up, they're already at work and they're available, and therefore I use that half hour to call those people just to warm up to practice. And therefore, if anyone else on the course who has a similar commute says, ⁓ I don't have enough time to practice, you can. And if you just go through your day and think, right, how can I make it fit in? I used to read to Felix. Parents love doing that. They'd be in the bed reading away the latest book. But for me, it wasn't just about connecting with my son Felix or my daughter Maisie. It was also an opportunity for me to practice my speech. So it was a win win situation. So I think it's identifying this is what I'd like to do. How can I make it fit in with my current schedule if you can't make time? That's it's a Perfectly summed up. Thank you so much, Matthew. I'm very excited to ⁓ to hear the feedback on this one, but it's been incredibly inspiring and I look forward to following your journey. Thank you. I've absolutely loved it. And I love your idea. I love your simple idea. Little things I've started making my own bread now. So that's another habit I've got into. So that's brilliant. ⁓ that's absolutely brilliant. Keep going with the habits, keep them walking up as well. Thank you so much.