speaker-0: Yeah. Should I dig into that more or should we just get on with it somehow? ⁓

speaker-1: I think we should get on with it and I will tee you up by saying this is a topic of much consternation.

speaker-0: Hold on a second. Yeah. You need to introduce us. Do I? Don't you?

speaker-1: That's Jay Fram and I'm Bill Swalik, and we are constantly agitated.

speaker-0: Yeah, you're listening to continuous agitation. Okay, now go.

speaker-1: I like that, okay. ⁓ You was this yesterday or the day before yesterday, you texted me to say, How would you handle this? Which is how all of our client discussions go. Right. Tell me now what you texted me then.

speaker-0: Hey. So I got an email yesterday from a subsidiary basically of a large client that I did a shoot for recently, and they were requesting more images from that shoot. And I do owe them images. They have not requested all the images that I owe them. So they were reaching out to request more images, but they have not paid me. They have not paid me one single cent. I don't feel reassured that they are in fact gonna pay me and I do think that they are. I I think one time, knockwood my whole career, I have actually not been paid. And I think then I got I think eventually I did get paid, but it took like months and months.

speaker-1: You've never been stiffed?

speaker-0: But you were no, I have not ever been stiff. Wow. And not by anyone who like hired me, actually hired me. I just think that you work with a much broader swath of the public. Yeah. That's why you're open to that's you're not open to it as in inviting it, but that's why you suffer that more often.

speaker-1: Although the time I will briefly tell you about a time I got stiffed. And if I could think of this agency's name, I would 100% say it right now. I'm gonna say 15 plus years ago, if not 20 years ago, a PR firm out of New York called me up and said, Hey, we are building this. I think it was like a bus, right? An experience, experiential marketing thing. For a like a movie or a TV show kind of thing that was gonna travel the country and it was being built in St. Louis. And so they hired me to go take pictures of it. And I did. And I did like I always do. I said, sure thing, Mr. Company. You're a legit business. And I went and I did the job and I sent them the pictures and I sent him an invoice and then nothing. And then I followed up and nothing. And I followed up a month later and nothing. And then I looked and my pictures were on their website promoting the ⁓ the thing. And nothing. And they were their stance apparently was what are you gonna do about it? And I was ticked.

speaker-0: How much are we talking about here? What level of

speaker-1: Probably two grand, fifteen hundred bucks. Two grand. Not nothing. ⁓ Yeah. Enough that I want that.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-1: So that's why I reacted when you said you've never been stiffed. It feels like saying you've never been kissed and the kiss of death

speaker-0: Not as fun. ⁓ so they requested these images and now I think I need to back back up and describe the shoot. And it was a basically an annual report shoot, but everything now is bigger than that because annual reports aren't the main thing. So it was like driven by the annual report, wanting some images for that, but image library covering one of their like subsidiary companies that they had absorbed. The company had this is a publicly traded company. So it's pretty big, not a household name though. And the headquarters are like, I don't know, on the East Coast. And they have this satellite factory in Portland, which is why I got hired. And this referral came through Wonderful Machine and it was good. And and so I went and I did the shoot. And going into the chute, there was some negotiation. We agreed on 12 final images with the hopes that they would license more. I always hope for that. So this was For me, this was a great setup. Like I was very happy how this went because I knew that I would do a bunch of good stuff and they would probably want to have more than 12 of them. And I still think that they will, but I put 30 days, I always put 30 days on my terms, and I sent it. It was complicated. Like I sent my invoice to the design firm. And they said, they even said we will send your invoice to us. And then later they said, ⁓ you know, you need to send this directly to the client. So then I sent it directly to the client. And then the client later said, Well, we were still working. This is the first time I requ the the first time I checked in at 30 days to say, Hey, ⁓ is this gonna be paid soon? He said, ⁓ it was late. We submitted it a little later because we thought we might make changes to the annual report and we needed to wait and see if there was gonna be changes. And I'm like, I don't that does not affect you need to just pay me for the work that I did.

speaker-1: Why that affects my pay.

speaker-0: So yeah. So that's his first point of kind of being late. And then I didn't hear again for a long time. And I sent them, you know, emails. There was there were questions about how do we select more images, which was all pretty straightforward. But ⁓ I said, this is just a reminder. Here's the rates. If you want, here you can just get one, you can get all of them. I still owe you nine images. Totally, just let me know what you want to do. And then I sent them another email outlining all that. And then I heard nothing for a really long time. And then the next thing I heard was this the office in Portland reaching out and saying, ⁓ we're in a really huge hurry. And can we have some of those images from the photo shoot? We need them like tomorrow morning. And I was and there was a chain where they had gone back and forth with my client at the company. And so that's when I reached out, that's when I texted you.

speaker-1: You texted me. Hey. What did you text me? You said Yeah. Bill, help. I shot a medium sized job for a corporate client. Can I say the amount? Yeah. Nine million dollars. ⁓ you said, shot a medium sized job for a corporate client, eighty eight hundred bucks. Annual report plus image library. We agreed on twelve images. They've used three so far. Thirty day payment terms. They signed the estimate. They haven't paid me yet. And I sent a follow up at 30 days, now they're requesting more of the images. What should I do? As you put it, I'm inclined to say no, pay me first. But then somehow I'm the asshole. And that is how it feels. Like, how terrible is it to be in a position where when you raise your hand and say, Hey, we had an agreement and you're not honoring your part, somehow I'm the asshole.

speaker-0: Yeah. Excuse me. I know you're in a real big hurry for these images, and that's totally and you expect them from me. And I know your ⁓ your invoice payment terms are a hundred and twenty days or whatever it is. I don't know why why is that my problem that your invoice terms are 120 days. You mean you want this stuff from me? ⁓ I need to be paid for your you're asking me to hurry up and deliver more stuff f and I haven't been paid at all. So I feel like I have several feelings. One is maybe I'm just being am I just being childish? I mean, one of the first things you said was, Well, maybe they're payment terms. The bigger the company, the slower the pay, right? And I was like

speaker-1: That's how it feels to me. I send an invoice to an individual and they text me back and go, The only people who pay me in five minutes are like sole proprietors. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And so am I just being childish and I don't understand the ways of business even after being in business a long time and I just have to grin and bear it and price that, build that into the cost of doing business and so on. And then on the other hand, I think some other people would look at this like your friend who you mentioned, and you said that he would just fire a client like that.

speaker-1: Yeah, he's so good at like a slow pay. So what I think is yeah, this is what is so interesting to me about this is the different ways you can look at it, which your feeling, I think, was hey, it's been sixty days. You signed the agreement that said you'd pay me in thirty. What's the deal?

speaker-0: Even if it's not thirty, I I'm not I'm not really hard nosed about it. I just I need some indication that this is actually gonna be paid fairly soon before I start hurrying up to deliver more stuff for you to some other entity, by the way, who wasn't even on the original they weren't part of who I was supposed to deliver to.

speaker-1: Yeah. And I which I suppose opens up a whole other discussion about usage and and

speaker-0: Stay the course.

speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Not not my strong suit. But ⁓ my ⁓ maybe it's this it goes with the territory, like I said before, of having been stiffed. Mm my feeling is where possible, you just weather it and better t better to have a client who slow pays than than no client, right? And which is I guess a scarcity mindset or something something otherwise not. not useful, right? It's not a a position of negotiating power to be like, Well, I just don't wanna tick ⁓ off because I hope they stay my client and pay me. Like I'd rather be paid in ninety days than not paid by that client. And so

speaker-0: I genuinely feel that. I genuinely do not want to tick them off, which is why I was struggling with the decision and why I texted you and why I I asked AI what it would do, so quote unquote do. And I think you were you weighed it. You're always funny. You were basically like you basically told me not to rock the boat. You basically I think is that fair? Which is which in effect is you do

speaker-1: I would say that's

speaker-0: Jay, deliver the images, bend over and take it, and then you know, you'll eventually get paid. They're probably a reliable

speaker-1: My questions were, is it a big company? Yeah. Are they local? Is this is the like how likely are you to not be paid? That was the if it seemed if it had been 180 days, then it would be like then my reaction would be much more Hey, you haven't paid for this. So unfortunately I can't deliver this until I'm paid for the work. At fifty seven days, I would have still been like, All right, it's a big comp the Because when I said to you, is it a big company? And you said, I think you said publicly traded, I was like, ⁓ so they're a hundred percent gonna pay you. It's just a question of how shitty will they be about it. And so my reaction was, yeah, don't rock the boat, give ⁓ what they want, keep ⁓ around. But then there are these other factors like you came back with, Look, they're not local. I'm probably not gonna get hired by them again in the future.

speaker-0: Maybe I will and maybe I won't. I'd really like to, and I've been trying to angle for that. I've been trying to suggest, I've suggested several times, like, look, if you guys like my work and they went, they were fairly effusive about the work that I did. And so I was trying to leverage that into hey, you know, you don't have to hire photographers all over the place and try to get things to look matched up. I would be happy to travel for you and shoot this stuff for you every year on an ongoing business. I keep trying to suggest that. And I'm not getting any response on that. But that is ultimately what I would like.

speaker-1: I'm sure you saying to them, fuck you, pay me, probably will help.

speaker-0: I don't know that it will as you I don't as I don't know that it will hurt as much as you think.

speaker-1: Didn't say that. No, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think you're right. I think because I my reaction was I th and what I said to you looking at my text was I'd be tempted to say yes because you have copyright on your side, meaning you know you're not gonna get stiffed because at the point they publish it and then just refuse to pay you, great. You get to ⁓ yeah, but But I said, assuming they're a legit company, I think it I tend to think it's better better paid late than no pay, since it's licensing rather than new work. I say do it. You clarified it's delivering more images from the same chute, not new licensing. And then you I said, can then we got into the weeds about it. And you said, I just sent this. Hi, Phyllis. Her name's not Phyllis. I just got this request for additional select. From our shoot. I want to help, but I can't fulfill new requests until invoice number from March is settled. It's now 57 days out on my 30 s 30-day terms. Can you tell me where this stands and give me a specific payment date or confirmation it's in the APQ? Once I have that, I can turn these images around quickly. By tomorrow, if necessary. Thanks for understanding. Which is, I would say, tough but fair. Because here's the thing. In every other professional contract, like they expect you to honor every last part of the contract, licensing terms and work for hire and copyright transfer and all these various things that they would be more than happy to bust your chops about. So why don't you get to say, look, we agreed on 30 days. The price I quoted you was for 30 days. It's now twice that. Should the price go twice? It's incredibly frustrating because The collective attitude seems to be what are you gonna do about it?

speaker-0: This is just one of those few times when I have a little leverage and I'm not trying to just leverage good clients whenever I have the opportunity, but I do genuinely need to be paid. And when I said other people would find this a simple answer, I talked about the people who would say, ⁓ you just need to grow up and expect that it's gonna take a long t time to be paid. There's another I think school of thought out there would that would say people that people who would say, Fuck it. You know, it's an easy answer. You don't do work. You don't you expect to be paid, you demand to be paid immediately. I've seen all kinds of recommendations for people to put payment due immediately on their terms or payment in 15 days. Why do you have to wait 30 days, et cetera, et cetera? It's I always strikes me as unrealistic, but there's that school of thought too. And then there's I think that was a very polite but firm email. But if it was the wrong kind of client, which this speaks to your concerns with doing this. If it was the wrong kind of person, they could definitely read that as aggressive and get pissed and just get really angry at me and make it harder for me to get paid in the first place and think that I was holding them hostage, quote unquote. So it's just really thorny. It's really hard to navigate. And also not a bad what?

speaker-1: Which is It's official. It's officially bull because literally what you are saying is, hi, you're not honoring the terms of the agreement we made. And that's what drives me insane about this is the whole somehow I'm the asshole for simply saying, Right, would you please do what you agreed to do from the jump.

speaker-0: Also, this is in a context of me like not having quite as much frequency of work coming in that I I need that cash. I spent a pretty good amount of time shooting it, doing the prep work, doing the post work, on co communicating with them back and forth. And I need the money. It's significant amount. And I don't need it a hundred and twenty whatever, sixty days from now. I need it now.

speaker-1: You mentioned my friend earlier who's so good at this, and he's told me stories of marching over to a client to be like, Hi, I'm here. It's been 63 days and you haven't paid me. I need you to pay me now. And then the next time they call, he goes, Yeah, I'm not interested. I only work with clients who pay me. And it's not that they're stiffing him, it's that they are they are s they have deprioritized paying him so much that he's like, that's not a client. I'm interested in working for.

speaker-0: You know what I had hoped to make this about, and it's fine if it doesn't end up being that, but what I was hoping is good clients who become difficult to manage, ⁓ for whatever little reasons. You know, I mean there's the bad clients, which are just to be avoided. The people who didn't pay you are like the worst. They're terrible clients. This is in w this one that I'm talking about and this other one that I want to bring up too, these are good clients. They're doing a thing. couple different things that are difficult for me to manage from a business standpoint and how to navigate that thorny problem delicately and with tact and still come out of it still in business and feeling good about not being shat on is the trick. And I think that's been a theme that I've felt ever since I was have been doing this. And so I sent that email do you want to know what they said?

speaker-1: Yes. Because you just got this two hours ago. Yep.

speaker-0: Yep. Jay, hello and thanks for the note. My apologies for the delay as it took longer than I expected to get you set up and into AP. I have asked them to expedite the payment, so hopefully it gets processed this week. Looking back over the contract, I should have pointed out that our corporate standard is sixty days, but we were clearly rushing to make the shoot happen. And then he another paragraph he says, Remind me, have you seen the print the final print version? Turned out great. Here's the PDF, and he sends a link. Thanks. So and so. ⁓ so, you know, he didn't say exactly the date. ⁓ but I'm gonna go based on that email, I'm gonna say, Hey, thanks a lot. I appreciate the update. And I'm gonna go ahead and send, I'll send his his satellite office. I will send them some images. And it's I at least I know that he knows that it's on his I know that it's on his radar and it's gonna happen. And he's still being he's still being polite and ⁓ he may be a little annoyed with me, but I think it's I think he understands where I'm coming from. We need to get paid. They know we need to get paid. Only the most unreasonable person would be like, psh, look at this asshole photographer.

speaker-1: percent. Yeah, no. There that was nothing about that response worries me. And in fact, it reminds me that frequently when I send somebody a reminder, their reaction is embarrassment. So maybe his feeling is, ⁓ yeah, I am I dropped the ball here. I better get this together. I will say

speaker-0: Yeah, I don't even think he dropped the ball. I just think ⁓ it's just not their priority to get you paid ever on time. And that's what that's what I mean about good clients, managing good clients that you want to keep working with, but navigating through their problems. Your lack of attention to this or your 60 day policy is a problem for me. The when we were coming up with the shoot and the agency was involved, there was a talk of I basically had said something about getting in advance and I even sent

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: I sent an invoice for fifty percent advance on this. I mean, I've never heard of these people before, right? I so I often do that. If it's over I don't know, five thousand dollars I

speaker-1: That was exactly the number in my mind.

speaker-0: And and she said, Do you need to get this advance before the shoot or are we good to go? And I just I don't know how I'm still so naive, but I was like, ⁓ don't worry about it. It just seemed like we were all going so everyone's paying so much attention and it's like clearly like, ⁓ it's very, you know, she's like, ⁓ well, they'll pay quick and I said, Don't worry about it. And here we are. Yeah. And I could have I could have insisted on that advance payment and should have.

speaker-1: This is why not needing work is the all ultimate negotiating.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

speaker-1: Being able to say the next time they call, hey, this job I'm gonna need to be paid up front since last time it took seventy-four days for me to be paid. Let me know if that's gonna be doable and then if so, we can talk about it. But I'm never in that position. I'm always in or I don't feel in it.

speaker-0: I think I think that you think you're never in that position. Right. I think you have a stance you've been beaten down by these people who haven't paid you. Which are ⁓ which that's a different that's a different category of clients and people. That's not the same as these like clients who mean well.

speaker-1: True. What was that?

speaker-0: Did you do that?

speaker-1: I did see that. It would be great if I played it off like it. So, ⁓ for anyone who the all four people listening, Jay just had some AI balloons float around his head for something. Maybe we said the magic word, I don't know. Or maybe does No. Yeah. Is it like is that an alert? Hey, this is gonna

speaker-0: I didn't say anything. You were talking That's what I was wondering.

speaker-1: But anyway, so that I mean that I am in the fortunate position that the vast ⁓ I mean, all all but how do you say almost all of my clients pay me without it sounding pathetic? But yes, I've been stiffed in twenty five years, but I've been stiffed five times or something, and for a total of three thousand dollars or whatever five thousand dollars. It could end up being more than I think it is, but it's pretty rare. So I I just have this feeling. I have the work begets work idea and I have the what is the value? What is the long term value of a client, right? So I don't want to chase away a client for being a slow pay because what if over the course of five years they pay me a hundred thousand dollars? That's significant. I think I am predisposed to grin and barrett. To say the risk of a like in this situation that you described, probably the way I would have responded in reality is sure thing, I will get you those images as soon as possible. By the way, would you mind checking on this invoice for me as I still haven't been paid? Like I would, if I were going to broach the subject, I would make it as I'm going to do this request you have asked of me. And and any request, any reminder to be paid would be as an aside in that context. And in fact, knowing that they were a big company, I might have simply said, Yeah, no problem. Because like in in the example you gave, right, your agreement with them was for a dozen images and you delivered three. So I would probably look at this as, okay, these are the remainder of the images from that first deliverable. So

speaker-0: That response. I like it. I could have gone that route. To what extent is my ego involved in these in this kind of puzzle for me? And is that is it really ⁓ less of a business question and more of an ego pride, you're taking advantage of me question? ⁓ And

speaker-1: That's interesting.

speaker-0: And I'm responding to th I think that's part of I think that's part of what's going on for me is ⁓ you want me to do you a big favor really fast, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure would be nice if you guys would pay me or act like you care about me being paid.

speaker-1: I can relate to that.

speaker-0: And that's and I'm not saying that's very professional, but

speaker-1: No, no, no. But it's but it's true. It's true. And I think I noticed that feeling. Like

speaker-0: And by that measure, by the way, I'm interrupting you again, I'm sorry. But by that measure, your response is more mature and more professional.

speaker-1: But also my response is is why we get walked over because I let ⁓ walk over me. If we all said, Hey, I'd love to help you with this, as per our contract terms were payment within thirty days, I can have these images to you within twelve hours, but I do need that payment completed before I can do any additional work on this, since you're out of scope of the con like if that's what a lawyer would do. That's what any business person would do in the scope of their business. when someone had violated the terms of the agreement, they would, it seems to me, not likely just grin and bear it. They'd say, You're screwing me. But But I think they know we are not in a position there there's scarcity and that's why you see all these requests on social media for hey, love to ⁓ collab with a photographer who would who'd like the opportunity to shoot my headshots. I saw one the other day where a guy was like he was a s not even a C level actor and he asked looking for a up and coming photographer in LA with a great portfolio who's interested in Shootin' my headshot and you can use my portrait in your portfolio. And he got roasted. So did

speaker-0: God. ⁓ good. I have another one that I want to tell you about.

speaker-1: Yeah, please tell me.

speaker-0: So did what though? You were gonna ask me something.

speaker-1: Well, I was gonna say, did we resolve your story enough? Because what was interesting to me about the story of your interaction with this client, it's not even and again, this is my w wimpiness in this respect, but it's not that I felt like they were behaving badly so much as they were standard operating procedure for a publicly traded company in twenty twenty six. And and and what I find interesting about the topic really is the various ways you can deal with it. Some people would say, ⁓ I misunderstood. I thought we w were working under the terms of a that we had agreed upon. Yeah, I'm not interested anymore. Don't call me again. That's one extreme. Then there's my extreme at the other end, which is just like until they prove wrong, I assume I'm still gonna get paid. It's gonna be slow and I'm just gonna eat it and

speaker-0: Until they literally don't pay you one time and then you decide they're too bad.

speaker-1: That's right. But I do think so so what I find interesting about this is not that you did it wrong or I did it right or I did it wrong and you did but just the different ways the fact that we have to worry about this is what I think is notable. That and I do think I think a lot of people, certainly in discussions I see online, everybody talks a good game, but the reality is you don't want to tick off a what has the potential to be a good client, not necessarily that specific case, but clients are scarce, even if they're not scarce. A client who calls you annually for twenty years is a very valuable client.

speaker-0: ⁓ my god. Yeah. There aren't very many of those left though.

speaker-1: So I think that's true, but I have and I think this is part of a corporate clientele. I have a decent number of clients who have been clients for 20 plus years. And that they ebb and flow. Some years it's like, ⁓ we sent two headshots this year. But then other years it's like they're one of my one of my biggest clients for a year. So I just I think I don't take that lightly and I'm and so I never want to. risk eliminating that possibility. Which I think is why my answer in that case would have been like, Yeah, no problem. By the way, could you check on this invoice for me?

speaker-0: I think that's a smart response. And I might have done that if I had if you had recommended that forthwith, Bill. ⁓ that might have been but my ego was still feeling stung, and my pride and my sense of wanting to use my very rare little bit of leverage to try to be treated fairly. Can I tell you about my other little experience about a good client? I texted you. ⁓ I was gonna say I could put this in the show notes, but I don't think I can. Not without outing the client. But I texted you an image. I was reading the New York Times on my phone. ⁓ Did you see this? So I'm reading the New York Times on my phone, and there's ads in between the blocks of text. And I'm scrolling past, and suddenly I stop because the image in the ad is my photo.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.

speaker-0: And how much to disclose? It's an interior design image. And the reason I want to bring that up is that interiors and architecture I've found licensing is a little bit ⁓ better understood by your average business client in this arena, I think. Not all of them, but it's more well understood that you're going to get what do you call it? Residual licensing. on some of the images and they are not going to flat out own the images. This is I've been I've been doing more and more architecture work and I've been pleased to to find that this is the case. And I think that's because the rates are not this is not traditional advertising kinds of rates. These are not generally ten thousand dollar jobs. Occasionally, but usually it's smaller. Anyway, my point is they generally do understand licensing. Also, I was surprised to see my image because It's a national platform, New York Times, but I guess it's local advertising. You know, you do see that, but I just didn't expect to. Anyway, the point is that image is not licensed for that use. That is that is paid media. Yeah. And that the that set of images is licensed for internal use, marketing, unpaid media, website, social media. It's what I have come up with what I call a standard package or a basic package. Yeah. And they probably didn't sign that agreement, but you know, it's in my estimate. Mm-hmm. And so so and they're they're a good client. They're local and they have hired me more than once. And I expect they will hire me in the future. It's all been pretty good, pretty chummy, and definitely don't want to blow up that relationship. But that is a that's that's a violation of the copyright, technically. And what do you do about that, if anything? Some people would pursue it and some people would not.

speaker-1: I find this the worst. The worst. Like if it was a stranger, right? If it was a company I had no relationship with, delightful. Cease and desist. Pay me, all that stuff. And I know if you were to ask the court of public opinion in social media, they would say, Absolutely, you have to invoice them and you have to tell them.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: This isn't out of and

speaker-0: Court of the court of public opinion in terms of photographers, if you actually asked the general public, they would be like, What's the deal? What's the problem?

speaker-1: the point I was trying to make is the photo blogosphere. Yes. That is all about big talk and don't get screwed. And they would say, well, yeah, I absolutely have to send a cease and desist and a and and they are they are right in principle. Right. And I sound like such a wimp when I describe it this way. But the reality of the re thank you. The reality of navigating this with a client whose relationship is valuable to you. We the reason we are tentative about this is because we've seen in the past these things get blown up when we say, Hey, by the way, this is an out-of-scope usage. Can I l send you a new invoice for a thousand dollars for advertising use and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, we don't under I don't understand why do we and and the the consequence of that sometimes is that client thinks you're money grubbing, you're taking advantage of them. They simply don't understand. They get mad about it. They feel betrayed.

speaker-0: They don't even have to have all those feelings because there's probably three or four other photographers that they have had a good working relationship with and why you know, maybe they just call one of them. But you know, he gets kind of picky about the youth

speaker-1: A hundred percent. that's ⁓ that's ⁓ that's a hundred percent it and that is a the calculus involved in that is so difficult to figure out do you say anything I I find I don't know how I would handle this one because I do think maybe because there are clients who sometimes you say, hey, technically, especially if they're savvy about licensing, hey, this is this use is technically out of scope. This was priced for editorial and social media and your website, but not paid advertising. And so that price would have been different. And maybe they say, ⁓ okay, well what how much more should this be? But it's just such a it's su it's it's playing with fire a little bit. And I think my gut reaction is I would be tempted and I'm I don't know have you responded yet? Have you figured out how to respond yet?

speaker-0: No, I don't know I don't need to respond at all. ⁓

speaker-1: But I mean ha you haven't decided to do anything yet.

speaker-0: I haven't decided to do anything about it.

speaker-1: 'Cause what I think I would do is on the next shoot, I think this is my gut reaction. I think what I would say is The next opportunity I have to do work for them, I would say, Hey, should I price this to include advertising because I noticed but see that's not even the right answer.

speaker-0: Well, that's kind of a good answer.

speaker-1: I was gonna say the because I noticed last time images were being used for this ad campaign that hadn't been priced that way. Is that a common use for you going forward? And then they say yes, and then I say, Okay, here's the new quote. And then the reaction is, why is it higher? Or it's great, no problem. And then you get paid more going forward.

speaker-0: I think what happened on this one was the images, th the project they don't typically do that is my sense, but this project got featured. It got featured in the Oregonian in the main newspaper. Because the project was awesome and the pictures were good and so it got featured and it's it turned out really good and I think they wanted to use it. I'm not I don't feel too bad about someone being able to deduce who's being talked about because let me say again, this is a great client. And I'm I genuinely don't wanna blow up or threaten or anything.

speaker-1: And it's probably an accident. This isn't th there's nothing about this seems male.

speaker-0: they probably just whoever's did it probably doesn't know that they don't have that. But I just don't want it to be complicated for them. I would like for it to be priced appropriately. And I think that they reasonably owe me a bit more licensing fee. But yeah, I don't wanna don't wanna be difficult and I would love to work for them more. I don't have enough regular clients in this in this region, and I w means a lot to me. So

speaker-1: Also, it feels riskier the things that offend in y there's just so many variables in terms of what a client understands about usage. And sometimes they find it really offensive when they learn, wait, we paid for the shoot. Why can't we just use the picture how we want? And I am not at all faulting photographers, but that's why we have so many work for hire contracts now. Like that's why the work for hire contract exists. Sure. Is because these clients got burned. From their perspective in the past and their legal teams and their accountants said, ⁓ okay, the way we're gonna solve this is going forward it's all gonna be work for hire.

speaker-0: And that's the other possible I don't think work for hire is what would be likely to happen in this case 'cause it's a small company. I mean, it's not out of the range of possibility, I guess. But what my other concern is that then in the future they just be like, right. For your price last time, we do need you to go ahead and fold in that other usage. 'Cause we're that's what it's gonna be.

speaker-1: But I just mean in terms of the work for hire in a broader sense. I know that's the evidence. That's the evidence that clients hear this kind of thing and go, This is stupid. This sucks. Why are they making me pay again? And so I think the real answer, the ASMP answer, probably. This is like when ⁓ is it Susan Carr? She was the one who first said

speaker-0: No you do that.

speaker-1: To me, anyway, in terms of usage, ⁓ the difference between a five-year and a 10-year, or a 10-year and an unlimited usage license, like she said, be practical about it. When you're evaluating the price you're gonna charge this client, is this image going to have any value for them after seven years? After 10 years? Because if not, what you're then giving them. is in practice nothing more than a seven year usage license. And it just occurred that was so f like f liberating to me to feel like, ⁓ just because I have agreed to extend the usage or provide more of a usage license, apparently we schedule these podcasts during lawn mowing time. ⁓ that's two for two. That's two for two. But it's probably gonna go right by my window in a second. I find the pressure to go by the book to be great. And so, ⁓ never, never s never sell a copyright or never offer unlimited usage. It's some of those extremes, those nevers, always strike me as as impractical. And so Susan Carr's advice to really consider what is the actual added value that I'm giving them, what is the dollar amount of that? Because if it's Even if it might be unlimited usage, maybe it's negligible based on based on the term of the times we're talking about here. So that's the frame through which I look at this and I go, okay, what is the added value for this image in this context? If they had said to you in the negotiating process, hey, we're gonna take one of these images and we're gonna use it locally. In ads in the Portland area for new kitchen remodels, and they'll run for six months on New York Times.com and a few other like is it three hundred dollars? Is it five hundred dollars? It's what's what would you have charged? And then you figure that out and you decide: do I want to gift them that mentally? Gee, minently with.

speaker-0: I mean they are just like right.

speaker-1: Are they in the room with me? But that's that's how I would handle this, is I would come up with a dollar amount in my head and go, Okay, it's three hundred dollars. For three hundred dollars, I will I will maybe mention it next time going forward, but I won't make a stink about it now. Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: Is making a stink saying anything?

speaker-1: Yeah. I think I think if I determined or and maybe the other way to look at that is if you were going to say to them, Hey, I need more for this, no let's say you know they're gonna be open to that and amenable to that. What would you ask them to pay you more? Do you have a dollar or?

speaker-0: Three to six, three to six hundred is probably the right amount. But I would love to know

speaker-1: That's a pretty nice gift.

speaker-0: What's a gift? What do you mean?

speaker-1: So if it was three hundred bucks, I have an easier time saying.

speaker-0: ⁓ it's a wash. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, three hundred bucks ⁓ fine. Here you go.

speaker-0: Right. No, but I would like them to just know that advertising is not included. I think that's that's the thing. ⁓ I also would like to know what the placement so I'd also would like to know what the placement value is, and I could probably find that information out. But I think probably a little ad in the New York Times app is not like ⁓ full page in a magazine, even a trademan. I have no idea.

speaker-1: What do you think they pay for that? Five hundred bucks a month?

speaker-0: Be even l I who know? I have no idea. No idea. I should look into it.

speaker-1: This is a good opportunity to say this thing that we can wrap it up on if you want. I recently heard about a roofer. Did I tell you this story? This basically, this guy, he had a HVAC repairman out for his furnace and the guy fixed the thing in 15 minutes and was like, okay, it's seven hundred dollars for part and labor and two trips and blah blah blah blah blah. And he was like, Man, that's a lot of money. And so then later, a month later, he needed a roof repairman to come out and take a look at something on his roof. And he said this guy he got referred to this guy, and the guy Came out, climbed up on his roof, came down ten minutes later and said, ⁓ okay, it was this bit of flashing. I went ahead and fixed it. And the homeowner said, What do I owe you? And the roofer said, I'll tell you what, nothing. This one's on me. Just do me a favor, please. And in the future, if anybody needs ⁓ new roof or roof repair, give them my name. And this homeowner was flabbergasted. Flabbergasted.

speaker-0: Yeah. I have seen I have experienced this myself and it's

speaker-1: And he said, Look, we don't have a marketing budget. This is our marketing. We eat little ten minute jobs because the hundred and fifty dollars I'm gonna charge you is not gonna sustain my roofing business. Yep. But the but the value of buying your favor, right? And making you think you can count on me and being someone you can count on who's not gonna nickel and dime you and all that is just invaluable. And kind of blew me.

speaker-0: God, this is awesome. You just introduced yourself, you just introduce yourself to this customer, this client in that context. Yeah. By first doing them an awesome favor. And it's awesome. And I love it. But you know what the difference is? Your friend, your guy, who experienced this was in a situation where they were very aware, made very aware of the favor. It was front and center.

speaker-1: Yes. And in fact, I realized strategically that what I do sometimes in these situations is I let it slide, but I don't say anything, whatever the let it slide.

speaker-0: So with my client in the New York Times ad, if they if I never say anything successfully and I never bring their attention to it, somehow it's not a favor that me it doesn't mean anything.

speaker-1: So what I would do with in in that context then and what I have done subsequently, I did a portrait for a pretty a a guy who could afford it, no problem. And he essentially came back and said, you know what, I'd also like this picture too for myself. We were doing something for his work and then he said, Hey, send me this one too for myself. And he made clear, he said, invoice me for it. And I said, no problem. And then I had this story in fresh in mind. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna try this. So I delivered the main thing I was supposed to deliver, and I delivered the secondary thing for him. And I made a point of saying, Hey, no charge on that second one. Happy to do it. Please let me know if you ever need anything in the future. And he then wrote me the loveliest thank you note and asked about a potential future job already, right there. And I thought, okay, I see how this works, right? I'm not gonna give away the farm. Hey, here's your advertising shoot. But I think the thing you could do in this situation is say, Hey, I saw your great ad reading the New York Times. Looks great. That kitchen looks so great. You did such a great job on it. So stoked for all the press you're getting. Just so you're aware, that kind of paid advertising use isn't included in the license that I gave you. But I'm not gonna See, I don't even know if that's can you say it like that? Just so you know.

speaker-0: I don't know. I don't yeah, I don't know how you say it. I don't

speaker-1: I don't know how you say it either. But it maybe I think my initial reaction was going forward, you say it. If you want to charge for it going forward, you say it on the next bid. Hey, by the way.

speaker-0: I noticed the last time. Maybe I could send a note. I feel like it's better to do it when it happens. You just don't know what's going to happen in the future. And you don't know if they'll remember and you don't know who's in charge of it. But I wonder if there's a good if what I should do is just reach out and say, Hey, saw you're using this for advertising. That's awesome. Normally that costs more, but don't you know what? Don't worry about it. Yeah. We'll just ⁓

speaker-1: That's the right tone.

speaker-0: Keep that in mind going forward. If that's a if that's a possibility. I know you don't do this on every single shoot.

speaker-1: Yeah. I think that's the right certainly the right tone. Because I do think f I think for years I've let little things like that slide and it's a little tricky to be like, By the way, I'm doing you a

speaker-0: Exactly, right. I know. That's equally annoying.

speaker-1: But also I think the way you just phrase it is perfect. Is is is hey, just so you know, normally that's this, but don't sweat it. Congrats on the great exposure or whatever. I say we end there and then we chop it up so that the things I say sound smarter and the things you say sound dumb. Continuous Agitation is produced by J Fram and Bill Swalik. Music by Moby Gratis. Like the show and write a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Follow Jay on Instagram at J Fram. That's J A Y F R A ⁓ Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads at Swalik. That's S-A-W-A-L-I-C-H. Read Bill's newsletter at artandmath.substack.com. Write to us with questions, comments, and effusive praise at J at Jfram.com or Bill at Sawalock.com. Thanks for listening to Continuous Agitation. See you soon.