speaker-0: Well that's that sounds speaker-1: Time to podcast, everybody. Fuck. Don't swear. speaker-0: man. Are you sensitive to the word fuck? I think I think I think you're more hesitant to use it and I am at the risk of using it too much and sounding like a an uneducated pottymouth. speaker-1: Well, in real life I use it all the time and I don't like that I do. Like I just think back to my mom when I was a kid, being like, All you do is you sound like you don't have a better vocabulary. So try not to use it. And then like I use it all the time and I just think she she's speaker-0: Right. I then I apolog like I apologize for the all the amount that I say fuck, 'cause I say it a lot. And I d I basically try to not text it too much. So that's my gesture to not overusing it is to not put it in writing. Yeah. But I just think it's funny. And also, do you know that studies show that the more you curse, the more intelligent you are? speaker-1: I'm fucking smart. speaker-0: I'm the first one. Yeah. This is continuous agitation. that's Bill Suwalik and I'm Jay Fram and we're t technically gonna talk about lighting. We had a conversation last week about which is harder, photo or video, and we decided speaker-1: Well, I don't know if it was last week, Jay. speaker-0: Well, whenever it was. The last time we reached the speaker-1: Be next week. speaker-0: whatever we might be next week. I think this pivots out of that. Anyway, I don't care. which is harder, photo or video? And we decided the answer is yes. And but you know, I've been thinking about lighting as it applies to that question and what I want to do with my kit going forward. And how we want to approach things in the future. And so we wanted we thought that might be a good little topic for a discussion. And I think we'll touch on what we both use, especially LED versus flash versus you know, strobe. And where do we think we'll be in ten years? speaker-1: That's interesting to me. speaker-0: Well, that's what we're gonna discuss. And then you said something like, Was sunlight closing the first sign of nobody uses strobe anymore? And I'm wondering if that's a An auto correct mistake. speaker-1: Was what? dynolite. It speaker-0: Dynolite. speaker-1: was dynolite closing. So for those of you new to the arena, speaker-0: Let's get into it. speaker-1: Jay and I use strobes for our photography. speaker-0: What are strobes, Bill? Strobes speaker-1: Struck. speaker-0: are I'm an interior designer who's interested in in what you guys are talking about, but I don't know what the hell you're speaker-1: Distinction between a strobe and a flash. I say strobe and I bet I say strobe because I think it sounds fancier than flash, like on some gut level. speaker-0: I mean a flash a flash, a camera flash like suggests in in your mind. speaker-1: Somewhere. speaker-0: Yeah. A camera flash suggests this little gadget right here. Right. speaker-1: Yeah, right. speaker-0: Right. That's a camera flash. That's a flash. Now, this is a pretty powerful flash. it's actually pretty awesome. and you could that speaker-1: The pro photo? speaker-0: is one. Yeah. I think it's I think it's now the A ten. But yeah, this thing is awesome. This is the best flash I've ever owned. Really? And it should be. There's been like years of, you know, time for the flash wizards to like make that stuff. Anyway, that's what that's why I think we say strobe versus flash. what it is not is a is a light that's pulsing. That is not what a strobe is in our in our business. speaker-1: The fundamental distinction, for anyone wondering, is a a strobe or flash. we'll use those terms somewhat interchangeably, is a light with a very short duration. It flashes on and off, and it's so fast, it's a three thousandth of a second or some crazy short duration, that it it freezes motion because it's illuminating for such a brief amount of time. The other way to light a scene is with continuous lighting. That could be speaker-0: Which means it stays on. speaker-1: Stays on the sun is continuous. I don't know that anybody would ever call the sun continuous lighting, but it is, right? Right. ambient lighting would be continuous lighting, any light that exists. This this Pavo tube that is coming through a big old silk here diffusion lighting me up beautifully. This this this beauty right here. Take take it in, folks. this is this is continuous light. so the big difference is that if you're just a still photographer shooting stills, you can use a strobe, or you can use continuous light, or you can use the window light or the sun or whatever, right? And if you're shooting video, strobes are out. You can't just use a strobe. speaker-0: You can't f use a flag. speaker-1: It's a fraction of a second. So you need a continuous light for video. And so people like Jay and I are I guess with more frequency shooting video too. And so sometimes you need lights that aren't strobes. I think most of this discussion comes from the fact that we're shooting stills and video. speaker-0: yeah. So I mean you ha I feel like I have to have some continuous light now. And like I have to and they're, you know, even even though LEDs have really like so dramatically changed and improved in the last few years, they're still fairly heavy compared to the amount of power that you can get out of a strobe. And I think that's, you know, other than the sort of difficulty of working with a flash and working with light that you can't see, you cannot see it. And you have to take the picture to see what it actually looks like. Right. other than that difficulty, it's also just that that the the continuous lights tend to be heavier and, you know, more expensive. Kinda kinda clunky. Well what do you mean by clunky What do you mean by clunky? Well speaker-1: In my opinion, clunkier. Clunky I've used. Okay. speaker-0: I don't think these pavos are the pavos are not clunky. speaker-1: But they're clunky e even in their they they are not clunky in the way I mostly mean clunky, which is to say speaker-0: Like Literally it clunks. speaker-1: I use light panels, Astras speaker-0: Yeah, I use those too and I hate them. speaker-1: and what else? Pavo tubes? Ap no not aperture. Aperture Nan Nanlight I d Sidebar. aperture speaker-0: I know it's infuriating. speaker-1: It is infuriating and is it just me being an unk who's like spelling an aperture but you're spelling speaker-0: It I mean I guess is it a Chinese company? Like is it like the what we're complaining about is that the company that makes some really good lights, by the way, they're almost becoming sort of industry standard for some of the nicer light sources, but they call themselves Apucher A P U T U R E, which is a bastardization of the word aperture A P E And well it it it is. And and everyone pronounces it aperture, so it just sounds like Yeah. speaker-1: I don't know what speaker-0: And it's just annoying. Why they speaker-1: Irritates my O C D or something. speaker-0: probably maybe they wanted to name it the correct aperture and then that wasn't available. I don't know, but it's annoying. It seems speaker-1: I know is we just sound like old crank speaker-0: I don't care. That's fine. That's our whole vibe. That's what people tune in. speaker-1: And to hear. My vibe is youthful energy. speaker-0: yes it is. Here you bring the old and I bring the cranky. anyway, yeah, aperture is annoying that word. but yeah they make I think the aperture stuff is great and the NANLIT stuff is great. I mean Nanlight makes this Pavo tube, this four foot I wish I could turn my camera, but since I'm using a real camera I can't even turn it. speaker-1: It looks like a fluorescent. speaker-0: It just looks like a fluorescent tube. speaker-1: With a plastic surround. speaker-0: I was trying to see that's you could kinda you can kinda see like isn't there. See that? speaker-1: There's my deep vision. speaker-0: Here's what I look at when you guys see me podcast God, we're such a couple of dumb speaker-1: This stupid. Just unsubscribe right now, everybody. Yeah, just click cancel. speaker-0: Smash that unsubscribe button. Those are cool sources. I they've gotten a lot better. I mean, I bought a pair of those one by one light panel astros. It's a it's a it's a thin square source. It is not a single diode. Is diode the right word? The one little thing. Yeah, the light emitting diode. speaker-1: Light emitting diodes. I like to call them L E D's. speaker-0: Yeah. You're smart. a speaker-1: They have hun right hundreds on there. speaker-0: hundred of in there, or like twenty. Anyway, I di they're g the so I find the that light to be quite glary when I point it out. speaker-1: Never I never use it anywhere other than through diffusion. speaker-0: But even then, like, I don't know, I maybe need to experiment with it more. It's a relatively small source compared to the large soft sources that I usually use with strobes. And I just have found it frustrating lately. It's the glare is coming from all those little diodes going through that thing. And even when I soften it, yeah, I mean it's okay. But then also the power is not that great. So once you then shoot it through the softening diffusion, The modifier, whatever it is, you've got now you've got you're shooting at ISO sixteen hundred and you know, you're never gonna use it outside. That's for sure. speaker-1: Right. Yeah, it's it is essentially unusable unless you're in heavy, heavy shade. I have used it outside a couple of times in overcast conditions where it just not as a key, but like as an edge. Use it as an edge one time really successfully. You can get it to where it'll barely pass as a key in l in low ambient light, but it's it's so low as to basically be not worth taking on an outdoor shoot. That said. The big drawback of those, what what would you call that? Multiples multi multi point source, the panel type where there's a million LEDs. speaker-0: We need to learn how to use visual aids in our speaker-1: But this is fine. People know what this means. speaker-0: Info we're in a visual medium and we're not using it. speaker-1: We were doing a podcast. speaker-0: Well, I think most of the our most of our audience is listening. I don't think speaker-1: We know all seven of Call up and ask speaker-0: Have you guys ever watched us on YouTube? Yeah. speaker-1: No. Come on, algorithm, do your thing. so the when I when when those panels came out and I was taught to use them by video production people, their big issue with them was you couldn't cut them well because if you put a flag to try to make an edge, put a shadow yeah. You know, the multi points mean you get a stair stepped edge on the shadow. And so that's their big concern. With trying to highlight like that is it's it's a hundred and fifty little sources instead of one big one. speaker-0: So and I think that probably is contributing to that glare speaker-1: I think that's true. speaker-0: that I feel, as well as the size of the source. So so for you, even for you, I was gonna say for you non-lighting people, but even for the actual lighting people, so the size, what controls the softness and the shape of the shadow? It's the size of the source. And I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a lot of corrections if anyone cares to write. speaker-1: I don't think the internet will correct us at all. speaker-0: You don't, you're joking. the size of the source, so the larger the s the light source is, the softer it is, but also, more importantly, the size of the source relative to speaker-1: I always use the sun as the perfect example. That's a big old source, but it's really fall far away, so it's really speaker-0: Far away. Yeah. so I mean, my, you know, a typical soft source that I would use for a, you know, professional portrait that needs to be flattering is big. It's like the it's you know, like my soft lighter umbrella is like, I don't know, supposed to be seven feet across and it's actually six feet across or something like that. So if I don't mind about throwing light all around the room, I'm using a big source like that. It's fast to set up. And because it's high powered strobe. you can really diffuse it and shape it and still have a lot of light. Like I can use that light outside and still compete with a reasonable amount of sun. And speaker-1: What or because it's a strobe, you can overpower the sun. And that's speaker-0: Overpower the sun. Right. speaker-1: the thing that I think will keep me not that I'm doing that technique all the time, but the greatest like eureka moment I ever had in my photographic education was the day I understood the principle behind how shutter speed does not impact strobe exposure. Yeah. And it's be and the visual aid that I always use in the classroom when I taught this later was that the the shutter opens from here to here, but the flash occurs much smaller in that time that the shutter is open. Yeah. And so making speaker-0: An explosion of light. speaker-1: here to here, making it longer, doesn't do anything because the flash is still just there. The only then way to modify the flash exposure is turning up or down the power on the flash, using your aperture, or changing the ISO. speaker-0: The apertures, the size of the tunnel, the size of the opening, yeah. Letting light onto the suddenly we're talking to an audience of non photographers. speaker-1: You never know. so the neat thing, neat is a word a lot of people are using these days. The I think the the most speaker-0: Nifty thing. speaker-1: nifty thing. Thank you. I needed a much younger word. the swell thing about Strobe then is in the same exposure, by adjusting shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. primarily by adjusting shutter speed, you can change in a single exposure the ambient exposure separately from the sh strobe exposure. And you can create some sort of, I guess I would call them special effects, but really what I mean is things that you kind of can't reasonably do with continuous lights because you would need such a powerful light. Do they make an HMI that's bright enough to overpower the sun? speaker-0: They make very p very bright HMIs. But yeah, I mean and and like for for especially for traditional film, but even now in in in films, you know, they use those really big bright lights and they Yeah, you know, I mean often my algorithm has started feeding me behind the scenes cinema stuff and I noticed it was some big commercial. Who did it have in it? Beyonce or something? Anyway, you know, there was a lot of outdoors like by the pool and sunny stuff, and they had flown in a huge white like, you know, I don't know, fifty by fifty feet white diffusion to block the sun and then added, you know, their own lights to be the sun because the sun doesn't look quite. Which is how speaker-1: Yeah. Block block the sun with a giant speaker-0: They still they still do it. Yeah, because I'm just good. speaker-1: Went back when they had to speaker-0: Do it that way. speaker-1: Because you could just couldn't live with the contrast of of actual sun. speaker-0: And also the predictability. So the sun changes over the course of the workday. It might take eight hours or two days to get the series of shots in it. And they need to those shots need to look like they were all done right at the same time. speaker-1: I I see similar things to what you're describing, but the one I keep seeing is like a it looks like an air mattress. It's an inflatable diffusion. Yep. And so instead of holding it up on stands or on a frame, it's speaker-0: It's got helium in it. speaker-1: it's like guy I guess it's got helium in it. It's got helium putting it along. Yep. And I think that's the coolest thing. And I forget what they're called, but I I Googled it at one point and saw that it was like twenty five thousand dollars. And I was like, Well, I guess I won't own But it's basically a giant helium balloon. I want one. speaker-0: I know it takes probably fifteen people just to control it. speaker-1: I use this Sunbuster, which is a basically a patio umbrella that's white translucent material diffusion. speaker-0: With openings for wind. speaker-1: With openings for wind, making it very convenient. And it's like a two hundred and fifty dollar light modifier. And I do tons of outdoor work, granted portraits of individuals where with one assistant holding that you can get some really great light. Yeah. If that was just like a inflatable, I don't know, six foot diameter hot air balloon, and you just tie it to your assistant's belt and they walk along all day like making shade, that would be great. How expensive could that be? speaker-0: It's gotta it's gotta be speaker-1: Sh speaker-0: six to eight feet wide. So Yeah, speaker-1: I want that. Yeah. speaker-0: those those things are super cool. Super cool. speaker-1: I want one of those. We're gonna invent that. But back. Except you'd lose them all the time, right? Because you'd make one bad step. There goes your six hundred dollar inflatable. Okay, bring out the next one. Yeah. Right? You would speaker-0: Also where do you where do you get the I mean, w also where do you get the helium? Like you gotta have a tank of helium. speaker-1: Party City. I have one at h at home. speaker-0: You do not speaker-1: Bored on a Friday night, you just take a few hits of that and Yeah. Hey baby, let's party. speaker-0: Uh-huh. You can cut all that out. clearly. But back to the back to the question of s the fascinating topic of strobes versus LEDs. I have thought a few times in the last few years, I I'm tired of carrying all this strobe gear and I'm I'm especially tired of having all of it, having both things in my kit. And I just wanna get rid of all my I just wanna get rid of all my strobe gear and just have continuous lights. I also like the vibe on set, especially when I'm working with people, of not having flashes going off. I mean the the the pops of the flashes are disruptive to I think I don't know, an intimate setting. Yeah. That's fine. And even in even in architecture, like it would be really nice to just be able to see clearly as I'm looking at the scene, the effect of the strobe. But again, to use to switch those light sources, I do not have the power. You can't be generally bouncing LEDs off the walls. I mean, that's something that I do with a strobe because it's so powerful. I often aim it at a white wall and bounce it and it spreads everywhere. And just a hint of that strobe, just a hint of it, I lights up the scene. I often light with the edge of the strobe too. I put a softbox on there, dial it down, and I'm using just the very edge. transition part of the throw of that light and ninety percent of it is aimed at a part of the wall that no one can see. but with LEDs, again, you can't really do that generally speaking, 'cause they're just not bright enough. speaker-1: Yeah, I feel like when I'm using LEDs, I'm I'm diffusing them and I'm just using maybe not as as much as I can get, but in the top third of its power range. And increasingly with strobes, it's the reverse. I'm using it in the lower half of its power range and I'm shooting things closer to wide open more frequently and and I think it's interesting because I don't feel that way about getting rid of like I don't feel any pull to get rid of strobes. I like I relate to that. speaker-0: just tired of carrying everything around. Deciding deciding all the time. I would like to have three lights in my kit and just like be done. Just not have anything else. speaker-1: I don't want to get rid of my strobes. I don't feel that pull. I rarely bring them both. I decide before I walk out the door this is a strobe job or this is a continuous lighting job. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And I think I feel like if I was better, I feel like I'm pretty good, but I feel like if I was better with lighting, I would be able to light using continuous lights in such a way as to achieve exactly the same result with that I do with my strobes. And I generally speaking don't feel like I do that. I feel like the look is a little different. Yeah. And and and so the decision I'm frequently making when I decide which I'm taking on location is which look do I want? speaker-0: You know, you're you the r you know, the strobes are just bright. It's just a it's just a different it's a different kind of tool. They just have so much more power that you can use them in a more flexible way. And the modifiers, as you mentioned as we were preparing for this conversation, like the the the range of modifiers that even simple little guys like you and me have for for one strobe head is pretty dynamic. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think the that's the clunkiness that I was talking about earlier, thinking about the astras in particular, the soft boxes that come with those things. They're they're preposterous. they and the and there's pieces hanging off and there's you unplug this one and you plug this one and you get this out. And you go by a strobe and you like put it on the stand and you turn it on and it and it goes. And there's not dongles hanging off of it and there's not parts f and pieces and And you're not like make-shifting, like I I just feel like the universe of lighting modifiers for strobes feels more robust and it and it feels less like a fight every time I'm I'm using it. But but it's not just the power difference, right? Because if it was just power, I shouldn't theoretically see a difference, right? I I think the difference that I'm seeing is the way that I balance strobe with ambient versus Because of life to the speaker-0: But I think it relates but it relates to the power but and how you speaker-1: It does. Therefore. It it does. But I think still it's that it's it's the distinction between I'm gonna bring up the ambient and bring down the strobe, right? And I don't know that I can do that with a continuous light, right? So if I'm shooting an editorial portrait of speaker-0: It's not powerful enough. speaker-1: But is that right? Because if I I guess it is, because if I speaker-0: If you had unlimited power in the light in the L E D light source, you could just turn it all the way on and it would l light up the whole room or make someone just completely white and then you would turn it down. speaker-1: I guess you're right. I guess that is but it's okay, you're right. But it's so far from being a reality speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: that in practice when I take LEDs on location, I'm going to be balancing them with the ambient more profoundly than I am able to separate my lights from the ambient with strobes. Like speaker-0: Whereas when speaker-1: am I gonna work with it or against it? Right. speaker-0: So what you're saying is that when you work with strobes, you don't have to care so much what the ambient light is doing. You can plan to primarily light your subject with your with your lights. speaker-1: Or entirely. speaker-0: Or entirely. And just not even have first yeah. speaker-1: Twenty years of my career, fifteen years of my career before I ever used an LED showing up on location and people would go, We were thinking we'd do it in here 'cause it's got the best light. And I would literally go, it's fine. I don't I I brought my I brought all the light with me. It'll be fine. Yeah. I finally went, you know, you're kind of wasting some really good speaker-0: Well but that is an advantage though, and then it's very consistent into what you can do from one time to the next and yeah, I mean you you don't have to worry about what the stupid crappy light is doing. speaker-1: So while I don't feel the same sense of I'd I'd I'd like truly, if if tomorrow somebody announced LEDs that are twice as powerful and you were like, This is it, this is enough, would you get rid of your strobes and just go all LED? speaker-0: Having this conversation with you actually the last couple of days has made me pause on more and think, like, actually, you know, I still kinda need to have some strobes 'cause they do a thing that I cannot I am not even likely to be able to do with lightweight. Okay, don't forget lightweight. Sure. like continuous light sources, you know, in any time soon. But I just like, you know, like these Pavo tubes. Like I don't have anything like that in a strobe. Right. Like they they come in all kinds of different shapes. I mean the LED stuff is just so cool. And I love that it can be really radically different colors and much more precise speaker-1: That is nice. speaker-0: than color than dialing color on on a strobe. I mean if I'm balancing with interior lights that are warm, tungsten balance, it's very easy with the LEDs. And with a strobe you gotta gel, use these clunky speaker-1: the hair light is speaker-0: Yeah, the thing and the and it's not it's orange, it's not orange enough. Okay, get another piece of plastic and tape it on there and they've got dis disgusting tape residue all over them. Talk about clunky. speaker-1: None of that sounds terrible. Like taping gels does not sound like a pain in the butt. And then you use a bicolor LED and you go, I'd like it forty eight fifty. And then you go and then it's the and you go, Yep, perfect. speaker-0: Yep. it looks awesome. And you can and also like, I mean, you know, in this last shoot that I was on, we would set the LED, we would set the the added light on set and then you sort of use that and balance that with the color temperature on the camera. So not necessarily always shooting daylight balance on the camera, but but using them as a as a as a two connected tools to shift color balance r in relation to things like the sky and other stuff, you know, going on. I want warm light. Well do you want the lights to be warm or do you want to set the camera warm right and then you know, put the lights to match or even warmer, blah, blah, blah, blah. but I was also gonna say that like the there's such cool little often little sources that they're making now. I mean, these light mats, these LED light mats pretty speaker-1: Massive. speaker-0: cool. So I'm coming to this having just worked with a gaffer and I've done that a few times but on this big project recently, like I worked with a gaffer grip team and they just, you know, they have all kinds of cool toys and the manpower to to use them. Yeah speaker-1: You said in our text you felt outgunned by the gaffers kit, and I was curious what you meant by that. speaker-0: Well, so I said I you know, we were gonna be outside, with a lot of sun, direct sun, and I thought, Well, I'm just gonna bring my sunbuster. I'm gonna get one. First of all, I had another different tool to block sun and then so but I decided I wanted Bills because it looked speaker-1: How do you umbrella? speaker-0: Better, a big patio umbrella. Easy to easy to manipulate, basically. very lightweight. And so I brought that and thinking, well, we can just throw, you know, and I had also like a couple strobe lights. we can just we can just throw this in the mix if we need it. You know, they just have so much tools and they're used to working with their own tools. So when I wanted to diffuse the sun, it was like, well, give us five minutes and we'll set up this 12 by meaning twelve by twelve silk flying on two. Whatever those stands are. They're not C stands. Right. Big junior babies. I don't know what to speaker-1: Junior Daddy Baby. speaker-0: Yeah, big daddy baby. Yeah. Anyway. but speaker-1: The big one. Bring me the big one. speaker-0: the big one. No. I mean the the Well look. The reason that it's so confusing is that the big one is called a junior. That's speaker-1: That's exactly what I was gonna say. If you don't want me to say the big one, don't call the big ass stand junior. Yeah. Just don't do it. hang on one sec. Hey, what's up? speaker-0: No, answer on camera. While he's taking a work call, I'll just mention here that, you know, any lighting advice that Bill is going to mention on this recording is you really need to take it with a grain of salt. It's not great, if I'm being honest. And there's just no subtlety. And you know, I mean it's it's criminal that he was allowed to teach college students how to do this. I don't know how he even got in the room. But you know, just while that's just you the two of us here, you know, I just thought it was a good time to maybe share that with you privately as an aside. Of course this doesn't leave the room, it's just just between us naturally. You understand. Just having speaker-1: Sorry about that. You know speaker-0: a little aside conversation. speaker-1: I don't want to spoil it for our listener, but the podcast makes zero dollars. Is it zero? speaker-0: Well, I think we did get eight dollars one time. speaker-1: Okay, so the podcast makes eight dollars. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Literally anything else we do makes some dollars. So sometimes the podcast gotta be on hold for that. Take a back seat. Sorry about that. what were we talking about? speaker-0: well we we had dialed into we had just sort of drilled into brightness you know they have these light mats that can they're so they're like it's like a curtain. It's like well yeah, it's it rolls up that you were talking about that inflatable thing that's the diff the diffusion, but there are also now inflatable like sources that you can just blow up and it's very lightweight and you can just hold it right there. You know, it can be very close, it can be in a room, it can be outside. I mean, there's just really cool things because the LEDs are so small. I mean, the light mats, like if you're in somewhere close to a wall, you can just like stick this thing to the wall. There's another little gadget that I like to use, which is this this very tiny I mean, this is a light mat that's like this big and someone will put it. I mean, I'm often shooting people with computers or tablets or whatever. It's boring as hell, but it's a lot of what we need to show. And I love having this little tiny light source. speaker-1: to glow. speaker-0: Hidden, yes, hidden on the keyboard or at the screen and it kicks up a little bit of light underneath and it looks so sexy, man. speaker-1: Great. Have you ever used a Loom Cube? speaker-0: I have not, but I have seen it. I've seen it. speaker-1: I interviewed a big time fashion photographer, like goes to Paris every year for fashion week kind of thing. And he was showing me something he did for I don't know if it was Vogue or what, but I was like, How'd you like that? He's like loom cube. It's like a eighty dollar little and basically he's using ambient, but then he'll pull these little things out of his pocket and go stick one in the back as an edge light or a hair light or to light up the wall or whatever. speaker-0: For photography? speaker-1: Yeah. And this was probably five years speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: ago. Cause he's, you know, shade in speaker-0: Huh. speaker-1: the shade. He's not out in the sun. speaker-0: Well I gotta check that out. I think speaker-1: The lesson in that and in a lot of this stuff is it's really easy to get stuck in your old way or whatever way of doing something. And there's so much technological advancement that that if you dismiss it, you just kinda are gonna miss out. And sure. Things like the mats and the the reason I brought up Kinoflows is 'cause you're talking about sticking a mat that's I mean, a quarter of an inch thick, half an inch thick, whatever that is. Yep. When Kinoflows were so kinoflows are fluorescent and they replaced or usurped hot lights, tungsten lights, which are called hot lights 'cause they got really freaking hot and because it would be speaker-0: Beautiful sources though. speaker-1: Yeah. Kino flows are speaker-0: They are literally fluorescent tubes. Just like the fluorescent tubes you've seen in your home. speaker-1: Dialed in to be color correct. Higher refresh rate and color precise. I actually loved Kinoflows. I still speaker-0: Use them for stills a couple of times and I just couldn't get it to Again, the glare there there was a sort of a I don't know like a anyway. I speaker-1: Well but the thing about keynote speaker-0: It wasn't using them right. speaker-1: their big selling point that I recall back in the day was they're so compact you can just stick it in into a car, into the corner in a tight little And I think about how bulky that light is compared to speaker-0: Compared to the LEDs. speaker-1: the LEDs or even these LED what do you call the roll up kind? The mat, light mat. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I mean that's that's pretty cool stuff. It is. speaker-0: I bought this thing. Hold on. speaker-1: Well now while Jay's away I can talk about him and say what a nice fellow he speaker-0: Show you did I show you this gadget? speaker-1: Looks like a bar of cell. speaker-0: This is made by Amaran. We're like we're like gear guys now. And this thing is by color, and there's another version that that means it's the either daylight or tungsten. Yeah man, it's got a little diffuser, it's got a magnet on the back. you can magnetize, stick this anywhere. Is that have I not showed this? speaker-1: On the iPad? speaker-0: Well it it does work on the iPad. I mean you'd have to dial it way down. you pull that, you do that, like look, look, look, look, look. I have it at ten percent now. Watch. Now look, I'm I'm I'm a guy sitting at my computer. La la la la la la la la. There we go. See? This thing is so cute and cool. and obviously it's not super powerful. but I guess I didn't show you this. How much do you think it cost? speaker-1: Eighty dollars. speaker-0: Sixty five dollars. Yeah. Ninety five for the one ninety five for the one that's full cinema range of lighting, not just bicolor, but like any color in the world. I just think it's so cool. I mean i if you if you show up with like six of these things, you could light a whole scene, you know. speaker-1: Think about we got these cameras that can see in the dark. We got cameras that can see in the dark, so you don't need as much light. You bring along a pocket full of these sorts of things and you put a little you you you do a little like let's just get a little edge right here. There we go. And bingo bingo. look at that. Yeah. I don't know if that's better or worse. speaker-0: Yeah. Bill and I are like, you know, adding little bits of light like speaker-1: Yeah, hey on our audio medium, you wanna talk about light and show some light examples? speaker-0: Yeah, look here. Who's that deal with that catch see that backlight? That's called a rim. speaker-1: It's actually technically Jay. hold on. Look. That's a technically that's a kicker. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Here's my question. speaker-0: Anyway, anyway. A couple of idiots talking about gear. This is a sword this would never be. Talking speaker-1: But it's light. Light gear is cool. speaker-0: about it is, it is. speaker-1: If if somebody tells you tomorrow they're getting into our business, you tell purchase what? Or another way to look at that is you leave all of your equipment in your car tonight and it gets stolen and you have to start over. What lighting equipment do you first purchase? And maybe those are two different questions. Cause for me, starting tomorrow, if I lost everything in my car tonight. I'd buy strobes first. speaker-0: yeah. No, I would buy how much money do I have? speaker-1: Eight dollars. speaker-0: Okay, well then that doesn't leave me 'cause I'm a podcaster. speaker-1: yeah, right. No, I think I would start with Strobe. speaker-0: I would buy two or three, depending on how much money I have, pro photo B tens, which is a strobe. speaker-1: I'd buy the same amount of Ellenchrome threes probably, which are the same but half as expensive. And then I'd take the go buy a continuous light. I think they're two to one. Wow. I think they're two to one. speaker-0: Ellenchrome's a pretty reputable company. I mean they speaker-1: I'm here to say, listener, nobody ever freaking talks about Ellen Chrome. They talk about Pro Photo and they talk about what's the other one that everybody uses now? GoDocs. speaker-0: Well the Godox is a is a pro photo Chinese pro photo clone. Right. and it is one third the cost. And people seem to use it. I'm seeing Godox in a lot of rental studios. but I speaker-1: Yeah. They never mention Broncolor anymore. They never mention Ellen Chrome anymore. I used to rent the Broncolor Move kit. speaker-0: You think? yeah, no, it's amazing, but it's like Is speaker-1: Why speaker-0: it pretty ridiculously I don't know, it's ridiculously expensive. And so is Pro Photo, by the way. speaker-1: Why sh why should a brawn color strobe look better to me than a I speaker-0: I don't know. What is it about it that looks that speaker-1: don't know. It might be that I just am aware of the brand and I think it looks better. But I feel like I don't know. It must be that. Also, why is there a strobe look that I like? What am I seeing? If I was truly bal balancing it with the ambient the way I would with a continuous light, I contend that I would see something different. Am I making that up in my brain? Or is there a difference? Is that sharpness thing from the strobe the flash duration? Is that a real thing and I see something different sharpness wise than I see with a continuous light? speaker-0: I don't think so. I think it I think you're seeing a combination of brightness and the consistency of the modifier and the fact that there is one bulb, right? And it's round. You know, that tube is round. as opposed to an LED source, which is, you know, I mean they're what who knows what shape that is. Like if it's multiple or it's one. If it's one, it's a big fat square and then it's modified with a lens and like it's just very different. I mean the the old hotlights, which were bulbs through lenses, traditional tungsten bulbs through lenses are absolutely beautiful. speaker-1: Tell me your gear. speaker-0: With the the yeah, the about the gear. I mean, I just have I now store so I so Bill has a studio. I have had a r a range of different studio spaces over the years, but I'm really primarily location photographer. You are a largely a location photographer as well, but I guess you have a more of a blend. than I do. Anyway you have a great place to have all your gear and studio gear and make sh and it's useful. I have now a bunch of like fairly heavy duty studio gear, not as much as you and I have no home for it. I keep all of my lighting stuff in a a a rented storage unit and I haven't figured out a solution 'cause this is a long term thing for me. Like I don't want to store all that crap at home. I don't have space for it. If I drastically download downsized to twenty percent of the amount of stuff that I have, I could maybe make that work. But you know, for the lights especially, like it needs to be fairly climate controlled. It's not perfectly I keep all the batteries and real electronics at home. but you know, it's anyway, it's dumb. But I have a bunch of studio stands, I have all these great things, and it ends up just not being used at all. And yet it's very hard to sell because it's so specialized and some of it's old. as far as lighting, I have when I got rid of my dynolites, that company that is a a brand that both Bill and I used in the past. They were small, lightweight strobes, photographic strobes, and they went out of business and they stopped, you know, Servicing and warrantying their equipment. I got speaker-1: Great combination of durable, affordable, decent quality, long lasting. They've been around for probably thirty or forty years. speaker-0: Yeah, I got those those are my first lights when I when I, you know got speaker-1: I still have some that I probably have six packs and eight heads, but they're the backups to the backups at this speaker-0: I sold my whole kit for like Yeah. You know, it took me thousands to acquire it and I sold the whole kit and caboodle for like three hundred dollars. Yeah. but I went out and I got these older Pro Photo acutes, which are similar in size and footprint to the to the Dynolites, and I just absolutely never use them. The only thing I ever use Yeah, 'cause I don't well, 'cause I don't have a studio and I don't need to set up a bunch of I don't typically need to set up a whole bunch of strobe heads like you do like you might in a studio. I just don't do that. And I don't need that amount of power anymore. It used to be when when people shot on film, now that's going very far back, but you really needed bright light. Yeah. Yeah. I mean speaker-1: Four hundred watt second packs. speaker-0: I speaker-1: I get away with three hundred. speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. My my lights that I use all the time are five hundred watt seconds. and yeah, they're those are the ProFoto the Pro Photo B ones, which are rather heavy, but I use those all the time and they're battery powered and the batteries suck, by the way, but but they're you know, the light the light as a tool, the light itself is fantastic. I would love to upgrade to the B ten, which is much more lightweight, but With the newer strobe heads, the modeling light, the light that lets you see what an approximation of what the flash is going to do is LED. And in mine, they're still tungsten, meaning that they're hot and they run the battery down really fast. Anyway, I have a whole bunch of those things. I have I, you know, I three B1s, and then I have all the acutes that I talked about, and I have like I have two light panel asterisks, I have Aerie hotlights, I have Smith Victor. speaker-1: Pro eleven power pack. That's the current this is this this pertains to your Pro Photo speaker-0: Absolutely not. speaker-1: No discussion. It's eighteen thousand three hundred and eighty nine dollars just for the pack. And they're I think they make one and no speaker-0: Photographers are buying that. I I speaker-1: Pro Bronckler makes one. And I don't understand. speaker-0: For rental houses. I don't really understand who it's for either. I mean, a s a s a big studio that's doing a huge amount of consistent work and ha and the work has to be very consistent in the look and the power of the light. And also probably they're good at freezing motion. I don't speaker-1: Still. So they buy five of these packs for a hundred thousand dollars and they buy twenty heads for another two hundred thousand dollars. So now they're three hundred dollars in the hole. What business model does that work? speaker-0: I don't know. for photography. Buying photography enough to make that yeah, I don't get it. I don't know. I speaker-1: just sold within the last month stuff that had been on the shelf for years, which was a Speedatron kit. Speedatron made in Chicago, maybe big the size like a power pack the size of an Apple box and weighs two toast 40 pounds. Yeah. And 2400 watt seconds for out of two toasters and big and And metal and indestructible. They lasted thirty years and you beat and you kicked but it sometimes they exploded and burned your face. speaker-0: We'll we'll send you to the hospital if you touch it at the wrong moment. speaker-1: But I had these on the shelf and they just were never ever ever ever getting used. And I sold two packs and seven or eight functional heads and all the speed rings, barn doors, nine parabolic reflectors, grids, snoots, like a studio worth of stuff. And I got one taker at 500 bucks, and I was like speaker-0: Pretty good. speaker-1: Sold. Yeah. all this stuff that costs thousands of dollars to acquire and it's now worthless, and then it just sits there for years and becomes even more worthless, and then eventually you give it away after you stored it for thirty years. Maybe you would have been better just getting it out of the way in the first place. I'm afraid speaker-0: What else I have speaker-1: at that. speaker-0: like that? dark speaker-1: Lowell total lights. speaker-0: D I d yes, I have three of those. speaker-1: Three totas. here's the question though. If you were advising, like, I think we're still, as much as we might be open to the new stuff and interested in continuous lights, we still have our strobe preferences and whatnot. And so if we were starting over tomorrow, strobes would be maybe first on the list. But if you were advising some twenty four year old who's getting into the business and saying, Hey, I've got fifteen hundred bucks or two thousand bucks to spend. Or three thousand bucks to spend on some lighting, what should I get? speaker-0: Depends on what they're doing. Are they doing mostly primarily photography? Th the the reason to have strobes is that they are a lot of power and flexibility for the cost. And they're lightweight and you can carry them around and use them for all kinds of stuff. And I'm I I cut you off in my answer, but also some of the newer battery powered strobes have an LED light built in that's a modeling light. And it's you know, LEDs aren't that bright compared to strobes in the first So it's bright enough to do some work with. So that's what I think. But if they are doing a lot of video speaker-1: But aren't they all aren't they going to be tomorrow? speaker-0: A lot I think a lot of the the the one man band people that we were talking about recently are generally not doing much lighting. But you know, I think it's mostly ambient. But they need speaker-1: But in that case wouldn't wouldn't a wouldn't a NANLIT LED be the place to start because you can use it for your headshots, you can use it for your videos, you can use it speaker-0: Well that's the thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I I think it's But you it's it's heavy. Those big when you're getting a bigger source, you know, with the softbox, the NANLite and the aperture like those softboxes are nice. They're not I don't think they're clunky like you're talking about. speaker-1: I would agree, but even they still strike me as a little clunky. And maybe it's just familiarity because they're speaker-0: Big. speaker-1: yeah. I just think speaker-0: Heavy. speaker-1: somebody who does our job in ten years is probably leaning more on continuous lights than than than Strobes because they're I think A because they're shooting more video. Right. as well. speaker-0: Well, I think that's part of that's part of what I was saying about abandoning my strobes too, is that like, well, if I'm gonna have to be shooting more video, then I need to beef up my my continuous light kit. speaker-1: If you had to have one light, desert island, right? It's probably not a strobe. Because it cuts you out of being able to do video. speaker-0: Right, that's right. Yeah, you probably need you probably need to have like one nice LED softbox, but it's gotta be pretty bright if you wanna do like headshots, you know. speaker-1: What's the what's the what's the aperture twelve hundred? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, the aperture twelve hundred, yeah, that's pretty bright. But again, once you put a soft speaker-1: The size of a small truck. speaker-0: Yeah, it's heavy. speaker-1: It's big. speaker-0: You can put all kinds of modifiers on it. but once you put softening modifiers in front of it, the the brightness really comes down quick. Mm-hmm. So but I mean if you're in a dark room into inside, you know, it's gonna be fine. But speaker-1: What's your favorite light to use? Mine's the Sunbuster. And I know that's cheating 'cause it's the sun. speaker-0: Yeah, that's the sun. speaker-1: But that's my favorite. speaker-0: Well that's a mo yeah, that's a moderate don't you usually though when you're using the Sunbuster add a punchy light like to to like set it off? I thought I thought that's what you're doing. speaker-1: I do I don't know, one of three things. Sometimes it's just Buster is the s is is it. And it's close to you and it's the c it it sort of depends on where the light is. speaker-0: I know what you do. speaker-1: Big white car. speaker-0: you use a or a silver bounce or pop at least on the edge. Yeah. Contrast. Yeah. That's speaker-1: Silver edge. So f that's probably my favorite. That's probably my favorite. speaker-0: should we are we done? Never. Are we are we done yet? How long until we're done? I'm speaker-1: I think we're done. I think we're done now. speaker-0: actually hungry. speaker-1: Do you mean done with the podcast as an experiment or this particular episode? speaker-0: No, I mean this particular episode. I just want this episode to be done. speaker-1: I think this was good. speaker-0: I think w yeah, I mean I think we covered it. speaker-1: Cut out most of your parts. Half of my parts, and it'll be good. Continuous Agitation is produced by Jay Fram and Bill Swalik. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. Follow Jay on Instagram at Jay Fram. That's J-A-Y-F-R-A-N. Follow Bill on Instagram and threads at Swalik. That's S-A-W-A-L-I-C-H. Read Bill's newsletter about photography at artandmath.substack.com. You can watch us on YouTube. Look for us at Continuous Agitation and write to us with questions, comments, and effusive praise at continuousagitation at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.