speaker-0: By the way, are are we allowed to curse on our podcast?

speaker-1: No. Take six. Okay. QJ. That's Jay Fram. I'm Bill Swalik. We're gonna talk about photography stuff. Yeah. How's that for an intro?

speaker-0: That sounds great, yeah.

speaker-1: ⁓ Chris Buck. I get Chris Buck's email. ⁓

speaker-0: I also get Christmas email, although I haven't seen it lately unless it came today and I didn't see it.

speaker-1: I think it came today or yesterday and it it detailed a photo shoot with Lena Dunham, who I don't have particularly strong opinions about either way, but I know she

speaker-0: She's just been writing some things in the New York Times. She's been she's been she's bit she's back in she's back in the spotlight. Anyway.

speaker-1: So but here's what he said. ⁓ he said, ⁓ this is Chris Buck. Lena Dunham may be the most innately talented person I've ever photographed. And I was happy to make her my muse again. We shot at Hudson Yards until we got kicked out, and then on the street adjacent to it. To get the best angle, I ended up in the middle of the road dodging cars to get the shot. What did I love about that? What I loved was Chris Buck photographing Lena Dunham, presumably for, you know, Vanity Fair or Rolling Stone or somebody. And it was we shot at Hudson Yards until we got kicked out. And here I am. ⁓ spending all my time getting permission and paying fees and jumping through hoops and making sure everybody's happy because I gotta be a pro and I and I don't like the idea of ever getting kicked out. And then I see this guy making great, great work, obviously, and ⁓ like as world class as anybody gets, and he's comfortable saying, like, yeah, let's go to Hudson Yards, shoot there while we can. And when they kick us out, we'll go somewhere else. And I feel like I needed to read that ⁓ today to get over myself and ⁓ just be okay doing client work where it's like, hey, this might happen and we'll s we'll we'll roll with it and we don't have to always like everything doesn't always have to be buttoned down and perfect. And that's not a setup for talking about perfectionism. But I do think that's I do think that's just really valuable to hear. I sp I spent A couple days outside last week on location. And I spent like weeks beforehand making phone calls and getting permissions and changing a shoot day to a comedy. And and he just shows up and does it. And in fact, when I was on location last week, toward the end of one of the days, another photographer showed up and was doing something sort of in the background of my shot. And I just remember thinking, I paid a fee to be here. I'm fairly certain you just showed up and are taking.

speaker-0: And also what kind of client? Because cause this there's a big difference between the, you know, between Chris Buck's shoot and yours shoot. And you yours think you're, you know, you're framing your shoot as being smaller. And you know, maybe that's true. And and that is true in one sense, but also it's yours is not editorial. You have a client that's paying that like has to get results. You can't sort of pivot if you get kicked out in half an hour, you won't have your your shot.

speaker-1: Which is exactly why I do it the way I do it. But Mike, this particular client I have a great relationship with, they are pretty good at at pivoting and rolling with the punches and and improvising, and that's great. And so what I learned from Chris Buck's comment here is, you know, w when appropriate, you you can just go take some pictures somewhere knowing that they're gonna kick you out, and then you're gonna go to your plan B and it's gonna be fine. As opposed to spending weeks frustrated on the phone, not getting the person to call you back, not getting the permission to be there. I think I just needed to hear that someone of that stature, yes, shooting editorial, but shooting a very high profile editorial, great, obviously amazing work. And that he was comfortable not having every last T crossed and I dotted. You know what I mean? So

speaker-0: Because he could make good pictures in multiple different places and if I'm sure they had other plans

speaker-1: ⁓ a hundred percent. And I have a I have that too on my shoot when I get the location permissions. It's like, okay, we're gonna go here and then we're gonna be on this side of the building and then we're gonna go inside and they've given us permission to be upstairs doing the thing and and that's all great. But I I'm also pivoting throughout that whole process. I'm just pivoting from one approved thing to another. And I think knowing that I'm able to pivot on that type of job with that type of client, I could be I could incorporate this kind of ⁓ spontaneity more often than I do, and just be like, look, we're gonna go down there. They're probably gonna kick us out. When they do, we'll go across the street to this park and then we'll do this over here and so on. I'm not advocating for this as like a great business model, like never get permission, never you know, but but just but that I get all up in my feels about ⁓ making sure I have all the permissions in place. And and sometimes it probably hurts

speaker-0: Yeah, I know.

speaker-1: hurts the work in the sense that I won't even ⁓ I wouldn't necessarily even try to go to a place I didn't have I didn't have permission for for a client shoot, you know.

speaker-0: It really depends on the place, both the specific place, I think, and also the city or or area. my experience of getting permits in St. Louis ⁓ a couple of times, one very particular time I tried to get a permit from the city because I was gonna shoot ⁓ I was gonna shoot for a law school in front of their building downtown on the sidewalk with a tripod and I learned that you have to go to a particular like I think it was like a works department, St. Louis works department or something like that to get a to get a permit. And they looked at me like I was crazy. Yeah. I went and I was like, I'm gonna shoot, you know, this thing. And she was like, You you want what now?

speaker-1: No, but I think in my town, Saint Louis Mo, you don't need a permit to shoot on the street unless you're blocking traffic. So I have a whole dock full of these notes and I don't I'm not looking But I was

speaker-0: Why yeah, well so when I was shooting for the law school, that's why I got a permit 'cause I was definitely blocking traffic. I mean I wasn't blocking car traffic, I was blocking pedestrian traffic, but hey.

speaker-1: ⁓ there you go. ⁓ Right. Who gives a f I love that the tripod is always the thing. Are you gonna have a tripod? Yeah. ⁓ man. Why are you I was gonna say we Why are we I don't wanna do this, you wanna do this. I'm here for you.

speaker-0: Why do we want to do this? Why? You're just here 'cause I wanna do it. I'm the only one who wants to do it. ⁓ when I said so so you said about two years ago I I I brought up the idea.

speaker-1: I'm picking that number out of thin air, but I think it was a

speaker-0: Quite a few months. It was quite a while ago. what were your so at the t and at the time your thoughts were ⁓ I'm I'm I'm over what do you call it? Over overextended and I don't I don't have space on my plate ⁓ right now for that. So but then in the ensuing months, ⁓ I think you you somehow warmed to the idea why?

speaker-1: Overextended. I got over myself and I ⁓ and I and I sort of like something else we've talked about that I'm sure we will talk more about in the future is my sort of ⁓ anti anti-perfectionism thing, right? So like I have long had this idea of ⁓ that's been drilled into me like work begets work, right? You do a job and then you never know what job you'll get from that job. And so this is sort of the same thing. Like, ⁓ yeah, let's do another thing. Let's see, let's see if that's fun. Let's see if that's interesting. And I mean, why not is not a super great reason to do anything, but it's also the perfect reason, right? Why not? I like talking about photography. You and I talk about our challenges all the time. That was the at least my framing of the impetus of this would be I'd call you, you'd call me, I'd rant, you'd be reasonable. And ⁓ Sometimes you'd rant, but even your rants are much more ⁓ mature. I don't in a good way than

speaker-0: Well I ha I definitely have I definitely have rants. We

speaker-1: He would talk about some challenge we're facing. How do I bid this? Or listen to what this client did or and then eventually at some point you were like, we should just record these and release them to people. And I kind of agree with that. Like, why not? You know? Why why not ⁓ why not why not let everyone else enjoy our brilliance? But it is I think I think one of the things you

speaker-0: No button.

speaker-1: ⁓ don't let me put words in your mouth, let me tee this up for you. But I think one of the things that interests you about doing this is that we don't hear other people talking about this stuff very often. And ⁓ so yeah, maybe maybe they're maybe there maybe other people will like talking about these things that we like to talk about, about our work, about the job of photography, the the non F stop stuff. Yeah. Is that how you think of it?

speaker-0: Conversations. We have these conversations all the time. I'm having some problem. I bring it to you. And a lot of the time those those are long texts text threads because we're both you know kind of like loquacious over text. does that work over text? Like you can just like we run on, you know, like we'll go into much detail. And I just like s at some point sort of feel like God, you know, I've been having these problems for a long time. I've been dealing with this stuff for a long time. You know, I'm talking to an you are you're a professional. You're, you know, you're and your niche is a little bit different than mine. And we're always dealing with this stuff. And like, surely there's some value in these conversations that other people who are doing what I do would find interesting. W whether they find it, whether they would find it useful, I don't know.

speaker-1: Well hopefully we'll find it useful because they will start chiming in, you know.

speaker-0: As in commenting.

speaker-1: Commenting, calling in, you know, I'd like to do a live over the air segment. Late nights. ⁓

speaker-0: Like

speaker-1: You know, the I think the other things in this, I'm not saying, ⁓ let's let's be the Rob Haggart, a photo editor thing. But like that's one of few places I feel like where working photographers are talking about challenges that we all face. And the community that that sort of chimes in there and adds to whatever, you know, he shares or his ⁓ photographers union, ⁓ what do you call that? Website, you know, I get

speaker-0: Project his a photographers union is sort of a project, and it's it's kind of cute because it's definitely not a union, but it's a place for people to discuss professional issues. ⁓ I think Rob Haggard is is one of the best places to hear ⁓ and ⁓ to hear this the kind of conversations that I am missing and I feel like I'm I'm kind of hungering for, which is a very realistic conversation. take on what it's like to do this professionally right now, w really leaning pretty s pretty strongly to still photography, traditional photography, not video. Not that video is not ⁓ video is video matters. Motion, all you know, directing, that matters, but it's a it's different. And we came into this as photographers, and he's still speaking primarily to that audience. ⁓ and that pool, that I think still large pool of of professionals who are primarily still photographers. Are you frozen or are you just listening? ⁓

speaker-1: No, I'm just listening. Okay. No, I'm

speaker-0: And to back up a second, Rob Haggard is ⁓ you know, a photoeditor dot com. you know, for for many me going back what to 2008, 2007, he had this website called the photoeditor.com and it was a blog. And when blogs were big, his blog became really big in the professional photography community. And and he was he was anonymous, Rob Haggard, not

speaker-1: ⁓ I don't think I remember that.

speaker-0: And he was a photo editor at Men's Journal and he did a lot of hiring photographers and working with photographers and he blogged very openly about the business from the client side, but also you know, he was he was a real champion of photographers and has then and since then he ⁓ and then when he left men's journal he he came out, ⁓ he made his name public and Then he made, you know, a successful business out of doing what he's done. But in general, I think he's had a real ⁓ he's been really true to his mission, I think, as far as I can tell. I mean, he has made a profit with his portfolio website company, a photofolio, ⁓

speaker-1: You're allowed to do. You're allowed to do that, right? I mean

speaker-0: But he's also, yeah, what but he has like kept his North Star intact. He has kept his priorities intact and his audience intact. And when I recently heard him and Heather, is it Heather Morton? Heather Morton R fire. You know, they did what's their project called? She's also great, but what's their project called? A f ⁓ state of the industry? State of the industry, which is they which they post on Instagram primarily, and then also on a photoeditor.com. And they were interviewed.

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: Did you hear this in you?

speaker-1: Interview on I thought what either you sent it to me or I sent it to you. Okay. And I just was really thrilled to hear what they said. I was so

speaker-0: Thrilled man. I and and again, this gets back to why I think this is worth doing. I had not so the podcast was c is called The Grain or Grain, and it's about AI, and I think especially AI and creativity. So it's not just about photography different stuff. But she interviews different kinds of creatives and people working with AI. And she's sort of like skeptical but open. She's she's kind of pro AI, I'd say.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: ⁓ and she had them on and it was a good conversation and they were just uncategorically she said like, Do you think that did you wish this had never happened? ⁓

speaker-1: Hundred percent we wish it never happened. Yeah.

speaker-0: It was like a hundred percent I wish it had never happened and I think it would be better if it had never happened. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yes, f hearing that made me feel like, ⁓ thank God, because that's kinda how I've been feeling.

speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. Like I I think maybe it would actually be better if it had never happened. I know no one else is saying that. Everyone is pretending, you know, well we just have to change. ⁓ it's not worse, it's just different. And

speaker-1: And ⁓ if the camera's not involved, I'm not super interested. Like it's cool, it can be as great as it can be if you love doing it. More power to you. Great. I I am not into shaming people for their creative pursuits. The only reason that particular one irritates me is when I'm told that the next evolution of photography does not involve photography. I'm that I'm not interested in that. It's and so fine, I'm gonna get left behind or whatever, but he's

speaker-0: Said something very similar to what you're saying. He was just like, That's fine if people want to do it. I'm just not interested in it. When people send me awesome images that are made with AI, I'm just I just don't find it interesting. And I mean, it's interesting in a certain way, but you're all and one thing you have also said is, but it's not photography. I think that's a

speaker-1: I need light hitting a photosensitive surface to be it not that that's the only thing I'm interested in, but in the context of photography, yeah. I want real light sticking to a sensor or or some film or you know, a sensitized piece of paper. Like I want a I can't even say I want a lens involved, right? Like I you can you can do some Man Ray here. We got Man Ray. Where's Man Ray? Yeah.

speaker-0: Adam Foos. Right. You know Adam ⁓ Adam Flus.

speaker-1: Yeah, Adam Fuss. ⁓ I don't know how it's pronounced. Adam clearly gonna be our first listener listener. But we that's photography to me.

speaker-0: At some point because like I you know, it's it it it occurs to me to say, well, like what if it was, you know, it what if it was AI, but it was a lens in the world, you know, but it but it was like somehow a machine. So I mean I think yeah, it's d it would be different, right? But so I mean I because I'm tempted to say, Well, yeah, but if there's not a human involved, I'm also not interested. Which maybe is not totally true, but even if a machine was doing it, I think there is still a human involved.

speaker-1: Well, it's the same thing that's less interested in the Photoshop work than the camera work, right? Like I would be kind of happy to go out with my camera and then never touch an image in Photoshop. Yeah. Like I know that's not practical and it's not actually part of my workflow, but when when you get right down to what is interesting to me about photography, it's the photography part. And I know. There's a long history of, you know, ⁓ the darkroom masters and it is it's it's it is absolutely part of the process and so is Photoshop and so is post processing. The part that I am personally most interested in has to do with pointing a camera at stuff in the world. That's just that's so if it doesn't involve that, I'm just inherently less interested in this context.

speaker-0: I am coming to this, I think, because I have conversations with you about business that I think would be, I don't know, let's just record them. It's also, it's like, ⁓ you know, maybe someone will want to listen. Also to some extent, it's self-expression. Like I feel like, you know, I would I have a lot to say when you know, when I was in my t early twenties and in my teens, like I wrote ⁓ mopey sad songs and I played them on guitar and I like and they were cool and I had a lot to say because I was so full of feels. And Now I don't write or I don't photograph about my personal life because I'm a commercial photographer and I'm always trying to like angle it toward making a living. And ⁓ this feels more like pure self-expression. Like I'm so pissed about this thing. And I, you know, this maybe is a bit of an outlet. ⁓ in even if no one listened to it, you know, I could record a few with you and it like it.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, a hundred percent.

speaker-0: Record it. So so the thing that I at least want to get out of this, you know, that I the thing that I want to say before we leave this episode or topic is that I feel like I don't listen to a ton of stuff, but I do listen to some things. Some podcasts, there's quite a few photography podcasts out there. There's a bazillion influencer type photographers on Obviously Instagram and LinkedIn and all these places and I just don't hear much that feels like it is connected to the reality that I am living and working in.

speaker-1: If I can add to that, I think the way I feel about that is similar. And the way I'm feeling is this like is sort of lost in the world of it. What I understood our profession to be for the last twenty five years. Yeah. It's it's just very, very different. And I don't blame AI for that. I ⁓

speaker-0: ⁓ no, I think AI is only a like a sort of icing on the Yeah.

speaker-1: I for me, the big change, presum yeah, I'm not smart enough to know exactly why, but my theory is that it's social media, right? And I think fundamentally there is a lot more work and a lot more photographers and a lot more competition. And none of that work pays a fraction of what it used to pay. I shouldn't say none. I think there are still high-end work. I think there are still clients who care. I think When you have been in this business for a long time, ⁓ and this is where I sound like old man yelling at cloud, you go, Well, I remember when I did this job for five thousand dollars ten years ago. How come I can't get a client to pay two thousand dollars for that kind of job now? That sort of thing, right? Whatever it might be.

speaker-0: It's like it's it's sometimes like ten X less or

speaker-1: Yeah. It's disorienting. Because and it it wouldn't be I feel like it wouldn't be disorienting if I was new. This this isn't none of this is meant to be ⁓ you know, ⁓ w war between the generations or whatever. I I don't mean it at all like that.

speaker-0: No, I'm not no. And and I have a follow up question about the generational thing, but continue.

speaker-1: That I have the perspective of just being like, well, wait, it it it was one way. Now it's it's very different. And that kind of is making my head spin. And maybe if I were new, I would just, like anything, I I would just be like, ⁓ well, this is how this is. This is this is what this kind of work pays. And and and okay, ⁓ full steam ahead. Here we go. Similarly, I found I'm only 40. ⁓ you know, I don't know how old you are. But I turned.

speaker-0: Say our ages.

speaker-1: No, no, no. Forty. I'm forty. I just turned that makes it sound like I'm seventy. If you're picking forty as the young age.

speaker-0: I'm sixty eight and I'm happy to still be doing this at my age. I'm happy to be now my actual age is gonna sound so young in comparison. I'm fifty two.

speaker-1: You're 52. I'm so considerably younger than that. I am 51, that is correct. And it's delightful. ⁓ truly, sometime in my early 40s, I started noticing things in the world that I was like, wait, I thought that would be permanent. And it's just not, right? Like, yeah, whether that's like a city that's a cool city to be in or a city that's an uncool city to be in. And like I thought I was gonna have to be 80 or 90 before these things.

speaker-0: You know I'm fifty. I think you're fifty one.

speaker-1: changed and you realize, ⁓ like 20 years, everything can turn on its head, whether that's some small town in ⁓ Oregon is this little hidden gem, or it's like the fastest growing city in the country. Like, you know, yellow page advertising is the main way businesses advertise. And then three years later, yellow pages don't exist. Or like things that just were that existed from my birth to 2015, like are just don't even exist anymore. And I find that disorienting and and that disorientation is part of the reason I want to talk to you about this stuff in a formalized setting like this. Because it's like I'm j I'm just like casting about for direction, for help, for like just wanting to make sense of it, figure out what's going on.

speaker-0: Well said. and yeah, what does it all mean? Like what do those what do those changes mean? And and is that am I disoriented because I'm just an old crank? Or is there something a little bit different about the technology shift this time than the technology shift from, say, you know, speed graphic four by five cameras y being used by the press to the sudden explosion of thirty-five millimeter cameras and how everyone thought ⁓ God, photography's over. It's it's you know, it's all dumb it's gonna be democratized now. I mean there are people who thought that at each stage, right? And then ⁓ all these various stages and this stage feels a little different.

speaker-1: But I wonder if it feels different because we're different, right? Because we if we were twenty two, we'd be like, ⁓ this is interesting new technology. Let's see where this goes and let's see what happens. And I'm getting lots of calls for work and it just so happens that n nobody has a thousand dollars to spend or or or whatever, you know?

speaker-0: If we're other than talking to each other, who are we talking to? Are we talking to the to to the Gen Z? Are we talking to Gen Z photographers and Gen Z are there Gen Z clients yet?

speaker-1: I mean I hope I hope Which one's Gen Z again? I I hope.

speaker-0: There's definitely millennial clients. Like we're working with millennials solid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think Gen Z's on the way pretty soon. Anyway, yes. Who are we?

speaker-1: Yeah. I I think I lost a Gen Z client, actually, which we can talk about sometime. Not right now. No. yes. But fine, and a lovely human being, I'm sure. Sometime I'll I'll consider this a teaser. I'll tell you about the Gen Z client I lost because they went with an entity that had an app and made booking like sort of automated, like ordering an Uber.

speaker-0: When you texted me about yesterday? 'Cause she's definitely Gen Z.

speaker-1: And they can order a photographer like you would order a pizza or a Uber or whatever. ⁓ And I think they like never stopped to think like, hey, we've been working together for a decade. Like your business matters to me. And then one day they were just like, ⁓ this app makes it easy. Boy, I haven't seen Bill in a while. Yeah. Cause you stopped hiring me because the app made it easy for you.

speaker-0: I don't I don't know if this might be bad to do, but I was gonna look up the generation years.

speaker-1: Well, I you asked I are we talking to Gen Z? Are we talking to Melan i I mean, I feel like I would be thrilled to, and I don't think I I don't think I can't relate to young people. I don't, you know, I think there's a lot of youth in our business. I think I hope young people don't just hear us as listen to these two old men ⁓ complaining about how things used to be, because that's just inherently not interesting.

speaker-0: Asked who are we talking to? Agreed. ⁓ except if we're, you know, particularly sort of charming old men. But ⁓ but generally if it's disorientation just because like apps move so fast. ⁓ that's maybe less interesting. Well, I it is true that I feel that way and that my eyes don't work as well as I used to, and that is a frustrating feeling. That is not my my point here.

speaker-1: Well, you and I have both, I think we have a long history of relating to the youths. I used to teach photography at ⁓ university. ⁓ we both have had assistants ⁓ who have been brand new to photography. And I love teaching about photography. I love learning about photography. Like I have no beef with the youth, and I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong. I don't think they're doing anything wrong. I don't I I th I think ⁓ my head is spinning a little bit at all of the changes that have happened in our industry and that seemed to me like they've all happened in like five years. Like my photo business was one way, and then the pandemic happened. And then there was maybe a couple years of like catching up with things that were postponed from the before times. And then all of a sudden it was like, ⁓ yeah, print is dead, you know, ⁓ just just seismic, seismic changes that I feel like happened overnight. And I don't know. what to make of that. And so who our audience is, I think, is any photographer. I think I think any photographer trying to make a buck with their camera, certainly. ⁓ whether that photographer just started yesterday or is in their very upper forties like us, or if they're interested in the business of photography, I th I hope they will find our conversations interesting.

speaker-0: And I'd like to add maybe even if it was applicable enough to enough people that even the people in the in the sort of professionals in the circle around hiring and working with photographers, ⁓ IE clients would also find it interesting. People who are kind of connected to production and photography in general who aren't, you know, necessarily working photographers. And I would also open open it to say, just to be clear, like you and I are commercial photographers. We are business to business. Photographers who work in advertising, corporate photography, headshots, architecture, things like that, ⁓ which are directly for businesses. We deal often with usage, or, you know, we might charge for usage or we might give unlimited usage for for some clients. It depends. But like ⁓ we're not retail photographers. But I think I think most of this is is, you know, that's the context that we're in. But it could be also reasonably interesting to, I think, wedding and retail photographers. I think there are a lot more. Wedding and retail photographers out.

speaker-1: There. That's probably true. But d I also think I think those lines are blurring. ⁓ I think more of them get hired to do more commercial work or branding photography as it is frequently called now. When it

speaker-0: Maybe. I wanna call back something to to that you ⁓ touched on ⁓ just quickly in case this actually makes it into the edit, which is that I definitely do not fault the younger generation for anything that's going on. I don't I'm not mad at the Gen Zers than the millennials who who are doing photography. Do I wish that they would charge more and know their worth? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I wish sometimes that they that they knew that a rate should be, you know, quadruple. w you know what they're getting, but I also re like I totally recognize like you could this is not I've I've told other people, colleagues who are mad about this all the time. Like you don't get to tell these people what to charge. Like they literally whatever they want. And if it doesn't work for you and it means your business doesn't work, then man, your business doesn't work. That

speaker-1: And unfortunately, that's just how it is. Supply and demand is a real thing. Sure. And there are a lot more photographers out there. And yes, there is a demand for a lot of content, but there's, you know what, there's not as much demand for magazine ads that live on a magazine ⁓ on an ad campaign for six months. There's not as much demand for high end, high quality print usage because. The media th those media do not exist anymore. Right?

speaker-0: They have largely disappeared and that has completely shifted ⁓ not only the commercial viability, but the meaning of what we do.

speaker-1: I had someone, I think a young person. I was talking about, well, they should charge this and the rates should be this. And and this young person said to me, and it blew my mind, and I've quoted it a million times since. She said, Well, what's the value of an image with a lifespan of literally hours? And I was like, ⁓ my God, I never thought of it that way. And it was like from that day, that was a Turning point in my thinking about our industry. Like I'm still trying to price things as if they're going to live on the annual report when they are in fact going to maybe go on Facebook for four hours or or go on their website that's visited by a hundred and fifty people a month. Like you know, we're not in Kansas anymore. And and that's part of what I find disorienting is going, Well, this used to be worth this. What's it worth now? And I've been doing

speaker-0: That's why it's hard to take a job that you've done many, many times, and you're asking and people are like, Well, what's the rate for that? And you should have an answer, right? You're yeah, you're you're you're ⁓ you're almost 40 years old, and ⁓ he's almost 50. And anyway, so you should have an answer for that. And yeah, we're sitting here going, like, at at my at my age, and my at it's not it's not my age, it's how long I've been doing this that's more the the point. I should have an answer, and I don't I fucking

speaker-1: Yes, a hundred percent. For any young people listening, I don't know either, right? I've been doing this twenty five years. I don't know what you should charge for that. I think we should all probably charge more than we are charging. You know. I thought I'd have it figured out by now.

speaker-0: I'm like, well I d you know, I We should br well, we should all charge what we should charge, but if if no one is willing to pay that, if you if you say it costs that three times and ⁓ you lose all three of those in a row, you're like, Well, I don't think this costs this anymore.

speaker-1: That's a hundred that is. You have described what strikes me as the problem. I I do the bid, I don't get the job. I do the bid again, I ⁓ for the next client, I don't get the job. I do the bid a third time, I go, I don't think I'm bidding this right. You know? And then of course that has a natural effect on your pricing, on the on what what usage you'll give. You know, ⁓ that that stuff is ⁓ I I don't know if stressful is the right word, but it it it's so disorienting. I got a request to Day, and it's just clear from the way it's written. It's one of those, like, hey, can you give me a quote for this? It's just like sick line items, four of which are pretty straightforward. And then two could be literally anything. Like, are we taking talent to Tuscany for this, or is this in the studio? Right. And and getting that additional information can be like pulling teeth. And then the whole time, with every answer that shows I, the client, am not super concerned. about this, you just start getting the idea of like, ⁓ this isn't this isn't like super valuable to them. They're not going to be willing to to hire the talent and rent the location and get the food stylist and do all of the things that go into this to do this what I know to be the right way. And so then that makes pricing that really difficult because I'm like, do I give them what I think is the right way to do this or do I do I give them what I think is the most affordable way to do The basics of what I think that like it it's it's that's what's disorienting to me. I don't some days feel like I understand what I'm supposed to do with with some of these quotes because you don't know if the client is old school and of the mind of like, yeah, this we we would like to spend $25,000 on some photography, or for many ⁓ people in our business, six figures or Multi-six figures on photography. You don't know when they call, whether they are that client or the client who's like, twelve hundred bucks, boy, can you do we we were we had budgeted six hundred. Yeah.

speaker-0: Is there anything you could do for six hundred?

speaker-1: I mean there is. Yeah, there is. You're not gonna like it.

speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ you find that disorienting. I'm gonna

speaker-1: Right. Like I I haven't ⁓ I haven't created my funnel that ensures that the only people calling me are people with deep pockets and a real care about what their images look like. I get some of those, but I also get some people who got referred to me by somebody's cousin or who Googled and are just like, Hey, we need ⁓ we need six views of our product for ⁓ e commerce. When I'm busy I can be I can have more discretion about what kind of jobs I wanna take. But when things are slow, you're like, Okay, yeah, here here if I if I think I can do the job well, yeah, I'll give you a quote for it.

speaker-0: I'd rather work than not. You and I have had this conversation ⁓ I think a quite a few times and I've said in that situation that you just mentioned where you have someone who's like, ⁓ they don't even seem like they want to put the thought into imagining what this might require. They just want a quick number from a photographer. Hey, I got the number from the photographer, you know, whatever. And I have said Well, that's when I go in and give them like two different numbers and I say, you could do this like this. This is what I really recommend. But if you, you know, if you're on a budget and you're gonna do this like ⁓ you know, you could do it down for as little as like 600 bucks and quick, quick, quick. But with a client like that, and I've and I've had that, that has worked for me sometimes, and not necessarily the lowest number people. When you have a client like that, I I it's almost like asking them to read that much information is somehow an imposition. And they're and you're being a pain in the ass, you're being fussy to put that much thought into it or that much questions. I mean, the first thing I'm gonna do when you ask me for a quote is send you a list of fifteen questions. Maybe And they don't and that well, that client in particular does not want that.

speaker-1: They do not want that. More now than they've ever not wanted that.

speaker-0: Talk about disorienting. I don't I don't know what to do. I'm like, well

speaker-1: They want a price and they want it done now because this is a line item. Again, not everybody, but what feels to me like an increasing percentage of clients who should have a little more, I guess I would say care about the the craft, the quality, the the whatever.

speaker-0: And it's more than just the quality of the camera and the skill of the photographer. That's one of the things that I like to say. Like, you can get the the best person in the world, right? But you gotta put a little like prep

speaker-1: to this. They do not want. Well, let's just shoot it both ways. We should have called this pod shoot it both ways.

speaker-0: You're gonna have to make some decisions. Well we could still wait it's not too late.

speaker-1: episodes have names? 'Cause this could be shoot it both ways.

speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely the episodes have names.

speaker-1: All of that is why we're doing this because we're both like we're both disoriented. Like, what is going on? What is happening? Our mutual friend, photographer, Theo Welling said to me three years ago when I said I was gonna start writing a sub stack. I'll never forget the way he said it. He was like, see if you can figure out what's going on. And like that is That that's why I wanna have this podcast because I wanna figure out what's going on. And I don't have the answers, but I enjoy talking with people, with you, thinking about topics that relate to this in the hopes that I can sort of figure out what's going on or just understand what's going on in the business of commercial photography.

speaker-0: And and that was fantastic wrap up. Now I'm gonna spoil it because I wanna know I want to know ⁓ what was the context that he said that because it is it's so great. And if you know Theo, he's just sort of like so understated and ⁓ unassuming, but like I think thinks pretty deeply about things and

speaker-1: He meant exactly what you and I are talking about today. What is happening in our industry? Why is it? I don't understand what's happening in the and maybe what he said was ⁓ almost three years ago. Yeah, so 2023. Wait, I would be interested in reading about what the hell is happening in our industry was was the context of of that comment, which is essentially you and I today. Let's see if we can figure out what the heck is going on. Or I mean, I don't know that we're gonna figure it out.

speaker-0: And it was post pandemic. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: But maybe if we talk about it enough, we'll figure it out or we'll get a better understanding. I would just like, even if I can't solve anything, I would just like to get my hands around like I would like to understand what is happening, what I'm looking at, what you know.

speaker-0: I wish I could I wish I could figure out how that applies to the future and give me some sense of being able to predict the next five years, but I think even that is dicey.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's my that's my goal in is basically having a structured reason to talk to you about what the heck is going on in hopes that I will better understand it.

speaker-0: And if we're do you th so here are we interesting enough?

speaker-1: ⁓

speaker-0: I guess we'll find out.

speaker-1: Continuous Agitation is produced by J Fram at Bill Swalak. Music by Moby Gratis. Like the show and write a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Follow Jay on Instagram at J Fram. That's J A Y F R A ⁓ Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads at Swalik. That's S-A-W-A-L-I-C-H. Read Bill's newsletter at artandmath.substack.com. Write to us with questions, comments, and effusive praise at J at Jfram.com or Bill at Swalik.com. Thanks for listening to Continuous Agitation. See you soon.