speaker-0: While Jay's away, or as I like to call him, dead weight, dead weight Jay.

speaker-1: Todo lo

speaker-0: wait, you can hear me?

speaker-1: Watch out, I can hear you.

speaker-0: One more intro while Jay's goofing around. I'm Bill Swalik, that's Jay Fram. You're listening to Continuous Agitation, the commercial photography podcast where two guys complain and whine and sometimes celebrate the life of the working photographer.

speaker-1: That's a great description of what we do. I am a little concerned the more, you know, what are we on? Episode seven or something like that now? And I'm concerned as we Yeah.

speaker-0: Thought it was seventy five.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's been it's been a few years now. We've been doing this for what, six or eight years?

speaker-0: No good.

speaker-1: Yeah, so I just wanted to mention that we I went wanted to mention at the top of the show that we've had some good feedback lately, which I really appreciate from several people. I also received some feedback from my producer. She was like, Why didn't you say my name? Because I always think I'm protecting people from publicity. Because but anyway, her name is Meg Halski and she's doing a fantastic job and I'm really excited to be working with her here. She is primarily a director, but she also does production, produces. She and her husband have a Halski studio, Mark Halski. So it's it's a whole family affair. But yes, thank you, Meg Halski. And I'm sorry I didn't mention you when I talked about how we got the job because you're a big part of it. I just want to encourage people to visit us on Substack where we are Also continuous agitation. And I really see that as a great place for you to send your hate mail, your comments, your suggestions. I'm open to suggestions from folks. Bring that stuff to Substack and let's have that conversation there. I mean, I think if we can get a more sort of robust conversation going that's not just you and me blah, blah, blah, blah, all the time. I think that would be great.

speaker-0: It does seem like it would be nice to have a place where people are.

speaker-1: You're the substack guy. Bill has a Bill has a substack of a pretty popular photography substack for any of you who've like missed the last six episodes, but for some reason he doesn't know how to manage our substack. I think he might be busy. Anyway. Not

speaker-0: No, it's it's never ascribed to malice, that can which can be summed up by incompetence. That's pretty much it.

speaker-1: For sure. I think if you search for continuous agitation on Substack, you're gonna find us. But I'll also put a link in the show notes. I really liked what Ashley Kees King had to say. Congratulations, Ashley, on your communication arts photo and I

speaker-0: Applause. Yeah.

speaker-1: love that's a great photograph. And we don't wanna need approval, but we really need approval and there's nothing that feels like that. Anyway, hold on. Ashley said There's something nice about how you guys don't know how to podcast. And I think that's true. I think that's true. And when you're talking about authenticity in photography, it's the same vibe. And I think I appreciate it when I hear things not feeling slick. We're obviously gonna get better at this, but I think it's important to just I don't know, leave the warts in. So anyway, I appreciated her saying that. I thought it was yeah smiley. I agree.

speaker-0: It would be great if we didn't need praise, basically, you know, attaboys, pats on the back. But it's nice to get Yeah, I guess it is approval. It's nice to get feedback where even if your audience is small, and trust me, as somebody who's been writing a sub stack for a few years, I get great feedback and that it genuinely feels really nice. I have a small audience. I used to have a huge audience and get no feedback when I when magazines were

speaker-1: You write a substack?

speaker-0: Jay can't read, so he's He's lashing out. Picture boy over here. Can't read.

speaker-1: The other thing that I just wanted to just briefly mention at the top, which we're not even at the top anymore, and by the way, this is the kind of stuff that I always fast forward through in a podcast. I time it to five pokes of the fast forward button. That's fine. do you have thoughts? Do you want to share any thoughts about where we're headed?

speaker-0: I don't freaking know.

speaker-1: The next couple of months and I have some idea. If you don't I I know.

speaker-0: It's traditional for a podcast to take a break after seven episodes.

speaker-1: Yeah, because each episode is so highly produced and so thoroughly researched. What do you think we're do we just sit down and they have no idea.

speaker-0: It's listen, it is embarrassing how much work this is.

speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah, you think this is bad? It takes a ton to make it this bad.

speaker-0: It's

speaker-1: Unbelievable. I would never have started doing it unless you were like, It doesn't matter. We just have to start recording and stop preparing. But I would like us to start having a few interviews here and there. And so I'm thinking about who I'd like to invite on, what they could offer that kind of aligns with the stuff that we want to talk about. And so I'm also open to suggestions from people for that. It's not gonna just Be only the two of us all the time.

speaker-0: So today's topic is photographers getting squeezed. Not touched, but squeezed into the

speaker-1: In a Yeah, not squeezed in a nice way.

speaker-0: Jay and I have complained to one another in recent months, if not years. What am I supposed to do about this, that, and the other thing? And in this context, one of those things is how we're getting squeezed between on the one hand, there's a client with less budget than they would have had for the same project three or five or ten years ago. And on the other, are the services we need, the other talented professionals we hire who are deserving and wanting more. And what am I supposed to do when I got less budget and more fee for the s the talent, the assistant, the digitech, what have you? It's a tricky psp spot to be in, and I do want to preface this by saying none of this is boy, our assistants are sure getting rich. Boy, hairstylists are really having a Yeah, they're none of it is that. It's literally like I I would love to pay everyone I pay triple what I pay them.

speaker-1: But it's really hard to make it work. Yeah. and I also think that I you know, it's worth exploring because I don't understand w I don't understand it. I don't understand why I don't understand how my rate is going down, especially measured against inflation, and all of the people who are involved with doing what I do, their rates seem to be going up. And maybe this is is this just a is this just a part of being a producing freelancer and you you just have to balance these like I'm negoti I'm I'm in the thick of it right now because I'm negotiating now I'm like stuck between the client and what they need, which is to stay on budget and then all of the vendors who want all of the stuff. I mean their job is to get as much as they can get basically, especially the talent agency. And so we have just been through the ringer with the talent agency in the last few days. And I will say the name it it's they're called What? You don't think we should say the name? I don't think we should

speaker-0: Yeah, then I

speaker-1: say. Well you cut it out then. They're called We you think if I say the name what's the risk that they're gonna come and like

speaker-0: Just bad mojo. I don't know that I yeah, I just think it it's because it's talking shit as if they're the problem. And it's not that they're the problem. It's that it's

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: it but it's that it's the nature of that because it's not just that it's not like just that agency is making some terrible choices. It's or that we're painting it like that. It's that

speaker-1: Yeah, they're trying to protect their they're pr trying to protect the professionalism of their talent on their roster. Okay. But this particular talent agency, which is the premier agency that's here, I would say, or one of the premier, but it looked to me it looks like the premier agency. We really wanted to work with them and they were just driving a very hard bargain about the usage. Again, it all goes back to the usage, but there's there's my usage that I granted on the photographs, and then there's the usage on the talent. And I I line itemed on this thing that that it was that there was a two year limit on the talent because we knew going into that that was likely, but what the client really would like is an unlimited license so they can use it and distribute it wherever they want. And I understand why that's not why the c talent doesn't want to do that and why the agency doesn't want to do that. But they were completely unwilling to Which is to

speaker-0: Surprise.

speaker-1: talk about it. And other agencies were not completely other unwilling. And also, yes, I think it's surprising because I know that the people who do this work are hungry. Yeah. Okay. I know that there's not that much work right now. It's not like everyone is booked solid. Maybe in LA they're booked more, but they had the writer strike down there and everybody was flat out of work. So I know these people need to work and if they are given a thousand bucks, there's gonna be a whole There's gonna be some of that won't wanna do it and I respect that. But there's gonna be a bunch of others who will, so I guess we could just work with a different agency. But it was just it felt really I felt really pinched in the

speaker-0: That's the squeeze. That's another way of the squeeze we're talking about, which is how do you, you know, on the one hand, you've got a client saying, Yeah, we want unlimited usage for everything. And on the other, you've got an a talent agent saying, Really tighten down on usage even more than in my experience, agents used to be. They used to be more flexible than they are now. Yep. And

speaker-1: Partly I th partly what I was told is it's because of AI. They don't wanna they don't wanna have AI. They don't wanna clients to train AI and their thing. And I'm like, I give sure, a hundred percent. Let's exclude AI.

speaker-0: I a hundred percent also appreciate their drawing a line in the sand, especially if they can maintain some defensible line on usage. Hey, more power to Literally. I'm not just saying that. I think that's fantastic. But I'm still the person in the middle going, I'm not sure what to do when the client on this end is insistent on one thing and the agent on this end is insistent on the other. And I need both parties to play ball a little bit.

speaker-1: How busy do you have to be like, nah, it's fine. I'm gonna turn this one down.

speaker-0: Yeah, I had an agent come to to me eighteen months ago, maybe it was two years ago. And this was an agent that an agency, I should say, that Jay knows from his time in St. Louis was traditionally a pretty th they certainly thought of themselves as the premier agency in town, probably were at some point, but they were not particularly known as being very easy to work with and flexible. That's not casting aspersions, it's just It was just they were really good and you expected to just they would deign to work with you, maybe, is the way to say they

speaker-1: That it always felt like that.

speaker-0: And I got a call from them within the last two years and they basically said, Hey, can we come over and meet with you? And it was a sen and it was cool. They were great. I've worked with them since. But it I think it was essentially them saying, We know we have this reputation and or we know it's not twenty nineteen anymore and we need to Change maybe the way we interface with the people who hire us, and we're willing to play ball to help you get work so we can get work and we can get work for our talent. And to their credit, they've been super flexible and pretty darn easy and easygoing in terms of things like what Jay is describing. We're asking a question we don't, at least I don't have the answer to. How am I supposed to function stuck in the middle, squeezed, where I'm being asked to play ball with? with clients who just need me to change my rules on usage that that used to be best practices and aren't anymore. And yep. And I'm not sure how to reconcile that with other aspects of our work where it's not loosening up and it's tightening down. This agent who it sounds like essentially just is not willing to compromise.

speaker-1: How do you know They weren't willing to budge. What do you yeah, what what am I supposed to? I guess I can just go to the lower tier folks. I found myself in a very surprising and unfamiliar stance, which was defending the client wanting to use things forever and talking about why they would want that and why it's difficult for them to manage your talent license on. hundreds of pictures that are going out to all these different offices. You know, like now you want them to like w and w and also suggesting that some models might be one set of rights and some would be a different one. So now we have to look at who's in the picture and say, actually this one's okay to use and this one's not okay to use. It just seems very it seems challenging to the point of if I was the client, I would say, never mind. And then I managed to get it solved by calling up a casting director, basically, which Probably we should have done in the first place. But

speaker-0: Because that casting director is gonna cast a net to five different agencies? She

speaker-1: Yep, she has the relationships and also this time she's gonna go and lead with the number and the rights that we have. And she also helped us land on what that ask should be, and then it'll just be like take it or leave it. Yeah. And it's not great. She even said the rate is not great, but it's just so many. Well and we're we are where we are. This is not a camp this is not a campaign where we're making five pictures or ten pictures and they're hot models like doing a fancy conceptual thing. This is not that kind of deal. Yeah. What it what I said to the one agent was like he was like it's not stock and I'm like, actually, it basically is stock. It's custom stock. And you should think of it as custom stock. And if you don't want your if you don't want your the folks on your roster to be involved with that, okay. I get it. But let's stop wasting each other's time. But it was weird to find myself like defending the client in unlimited usage when I myself don't want to give it away. But I like, What are they supposed to do? Call you and what of course they're gonna they're gonna of course they're gonna violate your rights agreement because someone's gonna lose track of it and then you're gonna send a bill and punish them like you've talked about before, where and then they you know, and then the the lawyers get involved. It's

speaker-0: Funny to it's wait a minute. You're using my argument that I use with clients. You're using that on me. You can't do that. That's not fair. And again, stuck in the middle. Like, I get it, man. Yeah, you're the bad guy. I'm just arguing with for you what you're arguing with. And I get that too. Which brings us back to what are we supposed to do? I d I'm not sure there it it all seems to come back to money because there's not enough money in the system to do things. The way we would like to do them or the way they were traditionally done, or yeah, like all of this gets solved with going to the agent and saying, Here's what my client wants, give me a price, and the agent gives you a price, and you go back to the client and you go, It's gonna be a hundred and fourteen thousand dollars. And they go, We gotta get it under a hundred. What can we do? And then the agent plays ball or doesn't or whatever, but it just doesn't. seem like it works that way anymore. And you go to them and you go, I got eight hundred bucks. You're gonna be on set for three and a half hours. We're gonna use it in social media marketing. You might find yourself in a brochure. I don't know what to tell ya. I think maybe to answer a question I didn't even think I was gonna try to answer. Maybe the problem is just that we the photographers have lost our footing. And the reason we're squeezed is because we used to present a unified front the way the agents are. And they the clients used to come to us and say, We want unlimited usage. And we said, Yeah, good luck with that. It's here's the pr here's the price for five years. And you called me or you called you or you called another dozen qualified people. And now there's just so much work being done. Not that they're not qualified people, but being done by people who didn't come up in that system, as we've discussed here, that we just we have been forced to adapt to the new way things are done, and it doesn't jive with the way the agent is wanting to price things, understandably, and so we're stuck.

speaker-1: Some of us still do things that way. Some of us still, according to the keyboard warriors Well

speaker-0: I what you're saying.

speaker-1: I did price they're pricing by their pricing by the by the year and whatever and they seem to be convinced that's still successful. And more power to them is literally working out for them than

speaker-0: Sounds like we're being sarcastic. Thank you to those people. I'm just not getting those requests.

speaker-1: I'm not getting them usually and even on this huge.

speaker-0: Big bid came in with one of the requests was unlimited usage.

speaker-1: Unlimited usage. Now I could have pushed back and I bet you some of the other photographers maybe did. I've heard from other

speaker-0: Heard from advertising photographers who say your choice is do I want to bid on this or don't I? And i we can't have it both ways. I certainly find myself complaining sometimes when people don't have a budget and I want to be like, Really, you haven't thought given any thought to whether I want to spend five thousand or fifty thousand dollars on this. So when they have a budget and they tell you that and they tell you what they want for it, and you can say yes or no, I don't know. I appreciate that they've at least given me a budget. That I can figure out, all right, what can I do for that? And when it's something IP related like that, like usage, that's where you theoretically have the wiggle wiggle room to to adjust, right? I can't wriggle room. I

speaker-1: Wriggle to wriggle. I

speaker-0: feel like that's where I've got wiggle room sometimes is okay, you you wanna go from three to five years? I can make it a little more instead of 60% more or or whatever. I also think the agents maybe in this particular situation that we're talking about, they he they hear unlimited. And the reality is what what is the reasonable lifespan of them? How long will the client get to use them?

speaker-1: It's not unlimited. Five years is a great compromise. You are not gonna wanna use these images past probably three years. Five at the outside

speaker-0: And the other side of that is the agent needs to understand. We all need to understand. The agent needs to understand. Yeah, I might be saying, I might be signing unlimited. I might be signing ten years. But in reality, it's five, because they're not going to use them past five.

speaker-1: I I I described this to you yesterday about exclusivity on photography versus exclusivity on talent. Same word used in both categories, you meaning actually quite a different thing. And the client coming back to me because that word is being used in the langu in the bid language and stuff, and it's confused about the difference. Well, if the talent doesn't have exclusive if we're non exclusive on the talent, doesn't that negate your Giving us exclusive use and I was like my god. Yeah, but it's two different

speaker-0: If I tell you and use these images unlimited, non exclusive, but the person in the image says no I'm thinking of usage rather than exclusivity in that case for

speaker-1: photography exclusivity means you can use the pictures and I won't license them to anyone else. You can use these pictures and no one else that's your competitor will use these pictures. But exclusivity for the talent means something completely different.

speaker-0: Does it? I or does it mean the same thing in that it's you can not be in other it's the selling you're selling pictures, they're selling their likeness. Thanks.

speaker-1: Yeah. My face will not be on any other giving them b being exclusive means you will have my face on your camp campaign and no other campaigns, let's say, will use my face. But that limits their future work. Right. Which is not the case for you limiting your future work. You can you can get you can sign a deal with their competitor. It's n you just can't sell those exact pictures. Right. It's Different. You're right. So you can have a f you can have a productive thing where you have exclusivity from the photographer, but not exclusivity from the talent.

speaker-0: Same thing would be if it said you cannot shoot for XYZ company.

speaker-1: You cannot shoot for camel. You can shoot for camel. You cannot shoot for Marlborough. Right. Okay.

speaker-0: Right. Jay's a Marlboro man.

speaker-1: But also like then there's the crew. Yeah. This is this also extends to that and I I have a real problem with that too.

speaker-0: a what I find challenging partly is my own fault, which is I've had a couple crew members for years and years who are who are inexpensive. And it skewed my understanding of what the crew fee was. And like I asked them years ago what's your rate? They told me and we just started paying that rate. And then a decade goes by and you think that's the rate. 'Cause they haven't raised it. And I did I have, I will, before I get hunted down and murdered. yeah. One one w my main guy I don't know when it was, within the last few years probably. You know, every once in a while he'll ask me if it's an out of it's if it's an out of the norm shoot, right? If it's something super short or whatever, he feels w

speaker-1: Well,

speaker-0: or less. Like he'll f he'll cut me a break without me asking for it. So he might be like Hey, how's two hundred bucks on the in on this? Do you have that? And I'll be like, You can do two fifty or you can do three. I'm gonna bill them the half day so y you know, you can get more or whatever the case may be. But yeah.

speaker-1: I love the feeling of being able to pay higher than what they're asking and I don't often have that feeling anymore. It sucks.

speaker-0: If I get a little more, I'm gonna pass it along, right? I am operating a business, but I'm also I firmly believe we have to take care of our our people or they're gonna go find something else to do that takes care of them and sell

speaker-1: They're not gonna be able to they're not gonna be able to keep doing it.

speaker-0: That's exactly what I mean. Selfish worry about I called a different person about assisting and she's great. And we only started working together within the last year. We've only worked together a few times. I needed a second assistant on this thing and I was like, Hey, are you available on any of these dates? And she said, Actually, I'm moving to Los Angeles next week. So sounds like she got a good geek good gig, but it also sounds like she had higher aspirations than what she had been doing. That's more great for her. And I'm happy and it's not, poor me, now I have to find but like I had someone in my wheelhouse who was good at what she did and charged a reasonable rate. It was especially reasonable on short shoots, and then it was more expensive on longer shoots. Basically, she preferred an hourly rate for shooting or assisting. That was yeah, it was a good deal for us on a short day and a good deal for her on a long day. And I have a I actually have a couple clients like that where Sometimes I eat it, sometimes they eat it, and it all works out in the wash, right? I say all that to say you gotta you you need your people, your crew, to be able to make this work if for no other reason than they're gonna go get a different job that pays their bills and then you're out a good crew member. So even not for altruistic reasons, even just for selfish reasons, I want crew to make a good living. I'm stuck sometimes when I'm like, hey, what's your fee on a half day? Well, I'd like it to be six hundred or what and you're like, whoa, how's four? Well, I can't do four, but I could do four fifty or and this is not at all me saying they're not worth it, they're not good, they're but where does that come from? Because at the same time, the client that used to pay thirty five hundred for that is now paying three. So I'm I'm squeezed. Maybe all this is just me saying I'm bad at business.

speaker-1: I I started by saying I have a problem. I have a problem when we switched to talking about the assistants and the crew, I said I have a problem with this. And it's not that I have a problem with people needing to charge for their work. I have a problem in that I want to hire them in situations where I can't. Yeah. And so the difference, the difference often is like the difference between me paying you what you're really worth and just not having an assistant at all. And there I have I've been in some here in Oregon, we have a I have there's a Facebook group that's photographers. It's it was ASM sort of sponsored by ASMP for a while and there was a lot of various It was like really open to anyone, but I said something about assisting. I was maybe looking on there for an assistant one time and I just got roasted. Like I just dragged over the coals for whatever I was offering, which was maybe five hundred bucks or something like that, and a lot of people chiming in to be like, you should be paying eight hundred or you shouldn't have an assistant. It was something along those lines. I online

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: and And I just f I was just like I left that feeling like if that's what it is, then there's no work. I can't pay you eight hundred when I'm making sixteen. Yeah. And you know, and so for for the architecture work which I'm doing, I often don't have I don't have eight hundred for sure for a full day. And so I guess I yeah, just I honestly don't know what t to do because I really do need someone to help me on those if to if I'm gonna do them right and and light things and like hang flags and Shape the light and stuff. It's just like I I kinda can't do it all by myself. But I do try to do it without an assistant sometimes. Yeah. And I have a couple people who will work with me and who will do the thing that you're talking about, like your like your person does, where they're like, How's how's two hundred bucks or whatever? Yeah. Two hundred is really small, but

speaker-0: Well, but I'm my in my case the two hundred was like two hours. We were there for ninety minutes or something. He was worried about I don't want to charge you my full half day rate for this and I was sort of like, I appreciate you wanting to be being willing to because he's coming from a place of just trying to be reasonable, which is all I'm trying to do. I don't think I ask them to cut their rates very often. I thought

speaker-1: But

speaker-0: Hey, I don't have eight hundred on this one. Can you do six fifty? And I'll let you decide and I won't hold it against you if you can't, but

speaker-1: Yeah, I'll call a few people and see if anyone is interested and and I maybe will say something like that. And I will I will overpay on some jobs where I have more. More. You know, I have a corporate chute that comes along and I'll be like, I'll pay you eight hundred on this. And also there used to be there used to be a protocol where assistants definitely charged more on advertising shoots. Mm-hmm And on editorial shoots where the people weren't making that much, their rate was less. Although sometimes a lot less. Yeah. So yeah, same as us. And so I'm not hearing about that anymore. So but partly because that that dichotomy doesn't really it's not really functional anymore. There's first of all, there's not really editorial work anymore. And

speaker-0: We're advertising.

speaker-1: It's all social. It's it's all social and it's all that level. It's all so much of it is that level of like, hey, it's a sixteen hundred dollar, you know, and I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go out for half a day and shoot an editorial portrait, what I would call an editorial portrait, for sixteen hundred bucks all in, and I'm happy to have that.

speaker-0: Frankly I'm impressed you're getting sixteen hundred bucks for an editorial portrait.

speaker-1: Well, occ occasionally, sometimes it's less, but sometimes if there's a little drive involved, they'll me along that rate. And I'm always like super happy to get it's usually a trade magazine kind of thing. Yeah. But but for small business social media stuff, they don't even want to pay that. I don't know. So can I am I gonna light your food plate shots f without an assistant? I d I guess I'm old guard, but I find that carrying that crap around And also just I don't know, I'm sweating the client relationship at the same time, right? And then to be fiddling with lights and creative and styling, like I just too much.

speaker-0: Well, in terms of we talked a little bit off mic, I think, about show prep. And I did do a tiny bit of show prep today, which is I Googled what what does a photo assistant cost in twenty twenty six? I didn't even put in where. But

speaker-1: Any specifics? Yeah, that's good.

speaker-0: but the Google machine knows who I am and where I am at least or at least where I am. And in the St. Louis metropolitan area, the average photo assistant day rate in twenty twenty six ranges. What do you think the range is?

speaker-1: Two hundred to twelve hundred. That's very unuseful.

speaker-0: says in the St. Louis metro area the average photo assistant day rate in 2026 ranges from $150 to $400 plus for a standard 10 hour day. I, as somebody who had an assistant cutting him a deal for a long time, I'm horrified at the low end of that. Yeah. Yeah. now it does go on to say rates very heavily based on your experience and type of shoot, which I have found doing an in informal survey with some friends. I have an architecture photographer friend In Los Angeles, and it was not a eight hundred dollar day for his assistant for architecture shoots. I wanna say it was closer to six, maybe even less.

speaker-1: I can definitely get someone for six on a normal average shoot. And they're usually happy they're usually happy to have that.

speaker-0: My ask for a for a for a photo assistant is often much closer to a PA. Help me carry my bags, help me set up some light stands, but like a hundred

speaker-1: But it's their time.

speaker-0: percent I'm not belittling that. What I'm saying is I recognize there are very professional assistants who have a very advanced level of skill that I, at least thus far, do not often make use of on set. Sometimes I do and I will say when I do, I'm like, this is why assistants are getting big bucks, 'cause this person just did my job for me.

speaker-1: Yep. Whenever I work with someone who's really good I'm like, yeah

speaker-0: This is a good and so frequently though, what I need is a lower level of help me get all the crap.

speaker-1: Point A to point B.

speaker-0: Like loading your car full of gear for a headshot shoot across town doesn't sound like a big deal until you go I take it from the studio and I load it into the car and then I drive to the place and I unload it from the car onto the cart, and then I go inside and up the elevator and I unload it off the cart and I set it up and then I do the job. Then I tear it down and I put it on the cart and I put it back in the elevator, down to the car and unload it off the cart and back into the car, and then I drive back to the studio, I unload it out of the car and onto the cart, and back inside and off the cart and put it away.

speaker-1: It weighs four hundred.

speaker-0: I was four hundred pounds and I did a two-hour shoot and I unloaded the gear eight times in that or whatever. Yeah, loaded and unloaded. And so frequently what I want is just

speaker-1: You travel light. I do. I've seen your setup and it's fantastic. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, I work hard on that. and it's still the worst part of the day, right? Yeah. So I won't so I will do that solo in a pinch, or maybe not even in a pinch, with more frequency. If I'm gonna have to be nimble and do a lot in a certain amount of time, if we're moving, right? If it's just setting up a set, setting up a a studio on location and I'm not gonna have to move around much during my day, I can get away sometimes. I'd say half the time without an assistant.

speaker-1: What do you think what do you think the retail photographers are paying their help?

speaker-0: that's a good question.

speaker-1: Because I bet you it's different.

speaker-0: Yeah. this is something we're gonna talk about in the future, I'm sure. The fact that there are that quote unquote photographer means ten different things.

speaker-1: Yeah, and and yeah, when I say retail I mean wedding, retail portrait. That's mainly what I mean. A lot of those paternity or just yeah. Wouldn't if you know the answer to that question, write in. tell us a comment.

speaker-0: Continuous agitation at gmail dot com

speaker-1: Right. I think you should just send them to Substack.

speaker-0: Continuous agitation.substack.com. Yeah, leave it public. that'd

speaker-1: Yeah. Look.

speaker-0: be great. So look, I recognize this whole episode is us whining about what do we do? It's but it's not, I'm not, I hope it doesn't sound like assistants are charging too much, talent is charging too much. What it really is is these rates are going up. My rates pressure from my client is going down, and I'm down. I just feel stuck, and I'm not sure what to do about that, how to square that circle.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. How do you yeah, what is it wh why is that happening? I guess it's all the same stuff as why is any of the rest of it's happening and what am I supposed to do about that? Am I like other than just go out of business?

speaker-0: Rates vary heavily based on your experience and type of shoot. I mentioned my friend in LA who shoots architecture and he gets what is, I would say, a lower rate for an assistant than what I hear about on Los Angeles assistant, commercial assistant discussion online. But this, the Google machine that said 15 to 40 bucks an hour basically, it breaks it down like this. An entry level assistant or PA is $150 to $300 a day. Still seems low. Mid level first assistant, three hundred to four hundred and fifty bucks a day, thirty to forty five bucks an hour. Four hundred fifty a day, I could see that being fine. I think it is fine, actually.

speaker-1: I think that's

speaker-0: that is not no it does say first assistant.

speaker-1: Well sometimes I don't have four fifty. I just try to work without an assistant in those situations, but I also

speaker-0: This goes on to say commercial or high end first assistant is five hundred to seven fifty a day and a Digitech is six hundred to eight fifty a day. I s plus a kit fee of three hundred to a thousand bucks. I so rarely

speaker-1: It's a big range.

speaker-0: I so rarely hire a Digitech because I frankly, 'cause I feel like I rarely have it in the budget. Well,

speaker-1: Shoot tethered, right?

speaker-0: but that's a f that's I would do that more if I had it in the budget to let somebody else worry about it.

speaker-1: And I those are usually bigger jobs. I don't you know. I'm also like I know how to manage my own light room

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: stuff. So I don't usually have someone and mostly man, they're great when something goes wrong. But

speaker-0: According to this Google result, five hundred to seven fifty a day for a high end first assistant on advertising shoots in the Midwest. I I guess that tracks with what I bet the reality is, but that's low compared to what I hear people saying online.

speaker-1: Now Google the rates for photographers.

speaker-0: How much does a photographer charge? Professional commercial photographer typically charges a day rate ranging from $1,200 to $5,000 and up for their creative time and basic equipment. Total project costs can range from $3,000 to $50,000 and up once image licensing, post-production, and crew costs are added. I mean that's a big range.

speaker-1: That's who knows what that me that's not an answer.

speaker-0: Especially saying a professional commercial photographer typically charges a day rate ranging from twelve hundred to five thousand. I would say that's an awfully low low end. But probably

speaker-1: Yeah, but it's true though. Yeah. It's true. Look at the results from Heather Morton's State of the Industry. They are the rates are along those lines. Yes, twelve hundred is on the low side, but for someone brand new, yeah, they'll be charging that. Guaranteed. Guaranteed. A whole bunch of people. And five thousand, I think, is more than most people are getting for your average commercial shoot right now. Not the high end shit, but Your average commercial shoot including s medium to small businesses, corporate stuff, I don't five thousand plus expenses, plus digital plus whatever assistant and some other stuff. I don't know. I'm happy to get that rate. And I just had a conversation with a separate healthcare client today and we talked about a rate of four thousand plus a couple other things and they were like, I don't know. They were receptive, but definitely talking about cutting days, cutting time based on me saying that rate. Yeah.

speaker-0: I think that's the pressure, right? You say the same number you used to say and it was met with one reaction. And then the reaction for to the same number starts to be more of that and you start going, I don't know if this costs I mean, is that the theme of our all of our episodes? I don't know if this costs that anymore. I don't know what any of this stuff costs anymore.

speaker-1: I don't know what this costs. Anything anything but silence. I'll take anything but silence. I'll take the resistance. I'll take the anything but silence. Tell me what your what do you what is it? That Kramer line? Why don't you tell me the name of the movie you want to see?

speaker-0: Why don't you tell me how much I should pay? Let's end by reiterating my crew people, hair people, stylists, location scouts, casting directors. I do not take anything away from their skills and talent. They possess skill sets that I do not have. I val

speaker-1: Absolutely not.

speaker-0: Wouldn't you rather make instead of $125 an hour and I never call you? Wouldn't you rather make $90 an hour or $100 an hour and I call you a decent amount. Now that's capitalism, right? Like you said before. If it's $800 a day for an assistant, I guess I won't, I guess I won't have an assistant on this job. And that's, I think, also what's in my head when a client says to me, What's your rate? And I tell them the rate, and they go, I'm okay. I recognize that what I am deciding is do I want this work or don't I? Because it's nothing personal. But if they can't afford it, they're not gonna pay for it.

speaker-1: It it depends also on how many of those if that's five out of ten clients, then yeah, you're gonna have to start saying yes. If that's two out of ten,

speaker-0: Yeah. And we all have our lines and we all have our i I'm not saying client calls up and says I got this much and I go, Okay, well I'll just do it. But this again is what it means to be squeezed. We're trying to figure out how do I navigate wanting to pay my people more and not being able to pay. That's really what it comes down to. Wanting to pay my people more and not being able to. And then the question is, do they want to work or don't they?

speaker-1: The most expensive thing on the chute is the humans. And that is as it should be. But yeah, I just try I try to get them as much as I can, but it's on all these medium and small jobs. I'm like, d I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

speaker-0: Yeah. Well, and that's I think the lesson in what's the value of a lifelong client. You want to get the small job from the client because then maybe they'll call you when they have the big job. And the same goes for hopefully your assistant cuts you a break when you need it, and then you repay them by getting them more when you can. You're trying to make it work within the budget you can. And people are going to hear that number and say, Well, that's ridiculous. You're charging this. I whatever I'm charging on a chute has to account for the marketing I did to get the chute and the insurance that I have on you and all the rest of my crew and the post processing and all and all the client negotiation and there there

speaker-1: I'm carrying a hundred percent of the risk.

speaker-0: Yeah, you're carrying all the risk and

speaker-1: And I'm doing a ton of work.

speaker-0: There is something to be said for being a hired gun who shows up, shoots, and hands over a card and says, Peace out. I will do that for a lesser rate all day long. I did that recently, actually. I did a piggybacking on a on a video production, shoot some stills for us. It was kind of a high profile client. And at the end of the day, they wanted files and I downloaded them and I transferred them and I said, Thanks so much. And then I got back to the office and I sent him a bill. And I was like, this is pretty great. No retouching, no file handling, nothing.

speaker-1: Yeah, there's definitely advantages. I gotta go.

speaker-0: Yeah. Like to the potty?

speaker-1: You're infantilizing me and it's disgusting.

speaker-0: Don't be a baby about it. Continuous Agitation is produced by Jay Fram at Bill Swalik. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. Follow Jay on Instagram at J Fram. That's J-A-Y-F-R-A-M. Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads at Swalik. That's S-A-W-A-L-I-C-H. Read Bill's newsletter about photography at artandmath.substack.com. You can watch us on YouTube. Look for us at continuous agitation. And write to us with questions, comments, and effusive praise at continuous agitation at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.