Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Nope, you're good. Welcome back to Sarah tookish stuff. sorry, I gotta redo that. My phone, my okay. Welcome back to Sarah Talks Bookish Stuff and we are here with Daniel Polanski, who recently wrote The Soft Touch. Hi, good morning, afternoon. Daniel: Huh. yeah, it's afternoon here. Hi, good to good to meet you. Thanks much for having me on. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. I'm so excited to talk to you. They've got we've got like that you've done so much that I like I have a whole list of questions that I've written out for you. So if I see me looking off to the side, I'm trying to like grab a question. 90% of the time, authors are really, really good at preempting my questions. So all right. So I just wanted to start with like, let's do a little bit of like history about you. tell me a little bit about yourself. Like you're kind of a mysterious figure to me. Like there's you're not all over the place and you're not like Everywhere on social media, which stresses me out because I love the soft touch so much. But like tell me a little bit about you and like what how did you know writing was your thing? How did you come to be doing these these projects, these novellas, these books, all that stuff? How did you get here? What's your journey? Daniel: Sure. well I always really loved reading and was really passionate about that and just loved language and words. I graduated college without any real idea of what I was gonna do. I had an office job that I didn't like very much, and they weren't paying that much attention to me. So I could kind of like write for a little while when the boss's back was turned. And I had this kooky idea that I would try to write a book, so I wrote Low Town, became Low Town. or the Straight Razor if you're if you're lucky enough to be in the UK. It's got a better title there. That was my title originally. But anyway, neither here nor there. so yeah, so I I wrote that. you know, I was fortunate enough to have that picked up. that was about fifteen, sixteen years ago, gosh. and yeah, I've you know been been writing various things ever since. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's awesome. so what kind of writer like we you see are like plotters versus panthers versus like people that do kind of in between when you write and you're telling these stories, because they're very creative. I really love the Stoff Judge. It made me, have a whole Daniel Polanski shelf now. It's a thing. so with writing, how do your stories tend to come to you? Cause you've you kind of like, I'll get into it a little bit later, but like you've kind of you've got like a a smorgasbord of different things. So when you're writing these stories, how do they come to you? How do you come up with this stuff? Daniel: You know what usually comes first is the voice. that's, you know, the most essential part of the the the process. And because I I do sort of work into different directions, that that you though there'll be some I guess initial idea, some sort of beginning spark. And then I usually will like write a few thousand words kind of in that in that vernacular just to sort of see if it if it lasts, see what it can do. Usually find I always have an ending in mind. you have like the the voice and then the ending, you know, how you get there is is the difficult part. I think when I was younger, I tended to be a little more as a a panser, I believe is is what people call it. and I'd write a lot and throw a lot out. as I got older I realized I was kind of juvenile and because it's easier it's it's more fun to write than it is to plot. So it's easy to just let yourself be like, okay I'll just write another twenty thousand words but then you use nothing and it's like You're schmuck. So as I've gotten older, I have begun to I I I've been I tend to plot out a little bit more, but at the same time it's always the conversation. As you're writing, you realize things about the characters, you realize things about the world, you realize things about story, you realize you have a better idea, you gotta go back and rework it. So it's it's you know, you're always kind of altering things here and there, although the ending never really changes. I always kind of know where that's going. It's like a joke, right? You've got to have the payoff before you s you know y you can figure out some things along the way, but you have to be be going in that direction. Also, I apologize if it looks like I'm in a wind tunnel. It's insanely hot in LA right Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha ha. Daniel: now. It's been awful. I'm literally in between two fans. This is why the only Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: my gosh. Daniel: reason I'm able to the keep it keep it together. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: So I don't normally I'm not just doing this for Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's Daniel: a fact. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: no, I t I it adds depth and that's tot I totally understand. It Daniel: Thank you. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: was like it was like eighty-one degrees here, and I'm like, do you know it's September? What is happening? And there's like another eighty something degree day and next week and it's stressed me out. I don't like looking at the weather right now. I'm it it really is. I'm in the Pacific Northwest and I'm like, where's my gloom? This is like cloud time, the sun is down, the sun is over. Daniel: Where are you? No I the weather's a nightmare. everything's a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a hundred and three yesterday. And it was humid. It was very it was not like normal LA weather. So, you know. End of the world, what are you gonna do? Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: man. Yeah, when I was down there for like when I was down there for WorldCon, it was like record humidity. Apparently there was like some tropical storm and it was like this whole thing. And literally Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: the minute the con ended and everyone left, it went right back to normal LA weather. And I was like, Of course. Sounds good. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, normally it's the weather's quite lovely, but not not this week. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, unfortunately. So with your path to publication, so moving through to publication, you've got your writing, you're you're sticking it in behind your behind your edit behind your boss's back. how did you make that jump? What was it like to make the jump to actually getting published? What was that experience like for you? Daniel: So, you know, I was so young and I had no background in it and like no real expectation of what was gonna happen, no real knowledge. I I didn't have any anyone who was in the industry. I didn't know anyone, you know, who could like guide me or explain what was happening. So the whole thing kinda was just a surprise, but but 'cause I had no expectations. You know, it it it didn't seem that weird. I sent out a lot of terrible query letters. I had one agent Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha. Daniel: respond, and then when it was time to go out, it sort of turned out that Lowtown caught the crest of the Grimdark wave, you know, which Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: nice. Daniel: wasn't something I didn't yeah, I had never heard the term before I I the book was published but it wasn't something I was like consciously doing, but it seemed to fit in a genre that people were trying to buy stuff from, at that moment. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: So I I I the one time in my career where I was lucky on diving, was was that. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. I think I there's like this whole thing where like no one wants to talk about luck. And like I I think that that like yes, hard work it is definitely part of it, but also like luck is part of it too. And the market is just yeah, the market does what it does. And like you gotta find Daniel: it's mostly block. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: it's gotta be the right con like combination of hard work and like the agent looking for the right thing and the right time for your query letter and the right time for your Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: book. Like it's just so much has to coalesce. And like one of the things I've tried to tell some folks who are like aspiring to start writing stuff, myself included, is like It's it's not a reflection of you. It's never rejections are rarely a reflection of you. So just it's it's a thing we don't like to talk about. Daniel: Yeah, I mean good luck believing that though, right? It's true, but it you don't you don't feel that way. Every rejection still is a knife and a fucking heart. Even after sixteen, seventeen years. Yeah. I'm a very sensitive person. Yeah, it does. It's really, really soul Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Yeah, it's it still hurts. Yep, it still slowly peels the bones out of your body. Of course. You have to be if you're gonna write. Daniel: destroying. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, you have to be super sensitive to write it, requires a lot of emotion. That's the whole point. So I recently I mentioned it, you published a novella that I really loved. I loved the soft touch. I'm super annoying about it a lot. And I do I just wanna I want to talk about it a little bit. So Daniel: Let's do it. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: The whole Low Town series did not start as this novella. It started as your first Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: published book. How many books are in the Low Town universe? I guess I should say. Daniel: it's a tr I guess now there's four with the soft touch, but it was Low Townslash the straight rays of fire. There were different names depending on which side of the pond you were on. Second book was called Tomorrow the Killing, and the third book is She Who Weights. so yeah, so that was I wrote that I I the last one I wrote twelve, thirteen years ago and was like sure I would never come back to that world. and Yeah, yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I think it kind of sneaks up on you. Like you create these worlds and like part of you is like, okay, I'm done with it. And then after a while you're like, I kind of miss it though. But I think that's really and like, especially with this world, because you mentioned like you were kind of in the the up and coming cresting wave of grim dark is starting to become a thing. And now it's such a common term. But like I know th 14, 15, 20 years ago, that wasn't really a thing. There's just like fantasy and high fantasy, and that's like it. so when you were building this world. Without that blueprint of a grimdark world, how did you wind up like building the world of low town? Daniel: Well, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Or I guess how did you imagine it, I should say? Daniel: So i I mean, I think when I was first doing it again like twenty years ago, it it was to my mind I was doing an an amalgamation of like low fantasy and kind of classic two-fisted American Noir of the like Chandler or Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: Hammond kind of tradition. so i you know, I I I pretty much was just like, Okay, I'm writing this as a crime novel, but there are swords. That was sort of how I envisioned it. so the world kind of built out from that and you know I had read five thousand fantasy novels growing up, you know, so it was there was a lot to sort of like build from. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay, that's really interesting. Cause like not having that blueprint to me, like it it's it's it's one thing to have, we have so much fantasy now, right? Like there's so much in the fantasy world that there wasn't 20 years ago. And like that's so there's so much stuff to draw on. So like when you think about books that were inspirations for your world, was there any like book that was inspiration? Because to me, like if that was just a a February spent in London, I would totally see that too. But like you don't have the same foundation of books that a lot of other modern authors come from. So like when you're thinking about things you drew inspiration from, what would you say was like a big what had the most impact on your building of this world? Yeah, when you're not working from like a blueprint, it's kind of a tough question. Daniel: Yeah, no, I I'm I'm sort of trying to think, also because it is like twenty years, right? So I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha Daniel: think I in some ways was de was consciously going against a lot of the fantasy tropes. so to some degree I was sort of deliberately working against that. I would probably Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: say honestly like a lot of You know, part of it was just like having grown you know, time I spent in an urban environment. I'm from Baltimore and I I've done a lot of traveling in like weird, dirty places. So there were that was part of it, just you know, experiences that I drew on and and then you know, just like a a lot of a lot of crime. Actually, you know, I mean in terms of like actual things that I stole from, most of my career I stole from a film called The Warriors, which Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm. Daniel: is still my favorite movie. One of my favorite movies. classic. I I I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Hell yeah. Daniel: owe Walter Hill a lot of a lot of money. Well not that much money. I owe Walter Hill a bit of money. He should be. I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: He should be on a lot more dedication pages. Daniel: could I could just basically so I mean that was part of it. and then you know just like the wire, frankly, like you know, trying to think I guess I think Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: I was trying to think about the characters From like as human a standpoint as possible, you know, from from like, well, this is what you're this is what a drug dealer looks like, this is what a drug user looks like, this is what a a corrupt comp looks like. I I don't know how well I did really, but that was that was the goal originally. of course when I got to one of the fun parts about the soft touch is I kind of got to redo some of the things that I didn't like about the stuff that I'd done twenty years ago. So in in fact, the the world of the soft touch. in some ways is significantly different probably than the world of Low Town. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: but yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's awesome. Yeah. No, I love that. That's actually I was gonna ask a little bit more about that too. So again, all of you guys keep preempting my questions. It's crazy. do you have anything else planned in this universe, which is my very selfish way of saying is Ren gonna be are am I gonna get to see my book husband again? Daniel: Huh. I probably. I don't actually have Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: a I'm not writing anything about it right now, but I did enjoy doing it and I have a sort of loose idea of where I would go with the character, so I think probably there'll be another another something like that, but I can't swear it. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. I I won't hold you to it. I swear I I swear that I won't hold you to it. W that I that I can promise. Don't worry. I'll I'll annoy you online and like gently poke you about it every now and then. And I'll be like, Hey, remember? Daniel: Thank you. I appreciate that. That's fine. Any time. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: So when you so you you started it as like as a as a novel, but it's the software is a novella. So what actually what prompted the decision to go from like the novel length to the novella in this world? Were you just it was like a toe dip, or were you like was it a conscious choice to do something significantly shorter? Daniel: You know what the Grimdark eyes were were like, you know, we wanna publish a novella from you. Do you wanna publish a novel like what we'll we'll do whatever. And I really like working in novellas actually. I I I think it's a lot of fun. I like writing novellas. I I I I I think they're I'd say like one of my least favorite things about fantasy is that they sprawl. I I really don't Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm-hmm. Daniel: have I can't read I I don't think I've read like a long fantasy book in a long time. I don't really like them to be honest. I just want a sort of more compact thing. So so that was fun, you know, and then I I s sort of sworn I'd never go back to it. Then I sort of felt like I had a kind of fun idea for how to how to do it in a different way. and yeah then once I got going it was fun. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, don't once you get started writing, it's hard to stop and put a lid back on it. So I the th I mentioned before he is I I love the character of Wren. I actually love like that character archetype that you I don't think you see it often enough. Like the defiant optimist is what I call it. Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: like you Carl from Dungeon Carl, Carl, like I think Ren embodies it like completely perfectly. It's it's how I describe myself as a person. I'm like, you can pry my optimism come from Daniel: good. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: my cool dead hands. Like I love the world and I think people are inherently good and I don't care. and I and I love that. And Daniel: That's great. I I love that. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: it's it's my it's my favorite way to be. I think, especially in like light of all the horrors, it's like the only way to survive Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: it. And like, so he has one line. I've actually quoted this line like a like a weird amount of times. So sorry about that. I stole your line, I just say it a lot. Daniel: No, that's nice to hear. Thank you. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I just thought it was really good. He says, being a pessimist is easy, it costs nothing, and you're usually right. And I think that is so cool. So like When what made you take that track with Ren? Because that's not a very common especially in like a grimdark world. That's just not something that you see enough of. And like what made you take Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: that track and make that decision about his character? Daniel: I guess a couple of different things. I'm a deep pessimist, verging on, you know, like n not I'm not a nihilist, but I I dark enough that one might potentially dispose of it. You know, I don't have a lot of hope. and Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: You flirt with it a little. Yeah. Daniel: so I think it was a couple things. One, Low Town, Low Town is a different a different it's written in the first person, has been protagonist. It's Ren's sort of father figure, who's a more extreme you know, I was writing as a more extreme sort of version of my own pessimism. about the state of affairs of the human race and whatnot. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: In part it was almost kind of a joke for myself because I I look back on wanna do something different. I I like the idea of of coming at it from a different direction. I think there's something a little sticky about sort of Grimdark pessimism to a certain degree, you know, and and it definitely is from a cry easier to write someone from a primary perspective like that and and then when I was just going with Rand, I like I d I really don't want to do there's no point in just having him be the same as the guy, I just you know, the the character in the first three. and And yeah, I mean and it's fun because I am a pessimist, because I a such a groom view of humanity and things. It was fun to consciously work against that. and that Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's awesome. Daniel: line that I gave to Ren, like, that is true. Like, you know, it is easier to be a pessimist than it is to be an optimist. Of course, we don't really control our innate viewpoints of the world. Like, I can tell myself to be an optimist every day of the week. And indeed, you're better off being an optimist. If you had some choice to be a pessimist or an optimist, be Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha. Daniel: a fucking optimist. Right. That's you know, like you'll be more successful in life, you'll be happier, everything will be better your way. but we kind of are what we are. still, you know, I think there's also there's an easy, there's an easiness, laziness about pessimism. You could feel superior to people when the shit that they wanted to happen doesn't happen. Look at you, you're an idiot, you had hope. so you know, I think actually, as I've gotten older, a lot of my writing has been like more consciously trying to embody that concept. in part Yeah, just to to kind of feed back my own team, so to speak. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's awesome. I think that's great. And like honestly, I I have I have a lot of friends that are I the nihilism and pessimist. I used to hang out with a lot of like philosophy master students in college. So trust me, like I know a lot of nihilists. And it's just like I came out as like the other they don't know what happened to me. No one knows what happened to I don't know what happened to me. I couldn't tell you. I did politics for a brief period of my life. And like I think it just pressure cooked it out of me. Daniel: wow, you're still positive. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: somehow. I think it's because it pressure cooked out the pessimism out of me. Like I had no choice at some point where I was like, I have to have hope. Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I have to. I have no choice because Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: otherwise I'm just gonna drown myself in the sea. So I'm like, all right, we gotta do it. We gotta just be positive. And after it just kind of becomes a Daniel: And yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: reflex. But I also think it's like I think you're right. It's part it's part Daniel: That's true. You could Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: like nature versus nurture, right? And politics loves scorching things out your brain. yeah. Daniel: You can practice things to some degree, but at the same time you're only I mean yeah, you know, it's it's it's a little gray. You can practice things. That's definitely true. You can bring characteristics, you know, to your life and your personality. but at the same time, you know, you do have a some things are more fixed than others, right? Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah, I think I was predisposed to optimism too. Like I've I don't know. My sisters are both also kind of optimistic. So it's just like part Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: of it. So it's like nature versus nurture. That's my favorite question. I love begging that question a lot. So with an I I don't know. I think I just like I resonated with that. I resonated with him a lot. So I I was gonna ask actually, who is your favorite low town character to write and why is it Ren? I'm just kidding. Who who is your favorite low town character to write? Daniel: Well, in the soft touch, 'cause I killed most of them in the Low Town world. I don't really know who's alive anymore. but I I I don't one of the fun things about writing this up is I don't really have any way to pronounce I don't know how to pronounce anybody's name. Like I I have no there's no official like right way to say anything. In fact I remember when Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's awesome. Daniel: they were first doing the audiobook for Low Town, you know, like I got a call from somebody and they were like, how do you say these words? and I was like piece the fuck out of me. like whatever comes out of your mouth. Anyway, EL Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Megan. Daniel: E Y A L who is this sort of like thuggish, this sort of brutish but somewhat good natured crime lord. I I I like writing him. I thought he was a fun voice to get into. I liked his sort of combination of like innocent malevolence, you know, like he's this sort of like you know you So you know, yeah, like kind an innocent, but you'll also like break your arm for no reason. So I I just thought that was a fun line to write. I also like writing Ren. I did I did enjoy writing like I said, it was fun to write optimistic stuff in opposition to the stuff that comes more naturally for me. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah, it's a challenge. I I think half of writing is exploring different perspectives other than your own and like being being able to be like a mental chameleon, I guess, or like a personality chameleon, like put on someone else's skin for a minute. Like my whole thing is I want to live every single life that can never be lived before I die. And like I feel like writing in books are such a good way to do that because writing makes me imagine what it would be like to be this person that I will never be. And I think that's so fun. I enjoy that kind of stuff. so the magic system Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: in your novella, and I'm I'm actually really like reluctant to call it a magic system, even, but like, is that it in in Low Town, does it play a bigger role? Cause like it was in the soft touch, but it wasn't like a thing. I I thought it was awesome. I think like it's it's kind of like Empire of the Wolf vibes, is how I described it. Like it gives me a little bit of Richard Swan, Empire of the Wolf energy, like where it's very selective. And I'm even reluctant to call it like a magic system, air quotes. Daniel: Mm. Yeah, so I would say I hate magic systems. I hate elaborate magic systems. I can't stand them. I think it's a really I just think they're stupid as shit, I'll be honest. You know, when you're getting into Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Sam Daniel: like the different colored mages and how they oppose each other, it's like I could not get less of a shit about this man. This is a complete fucking waste of my time. You know, I don't know how you manage to make magic this fucking dull. Right. Like I don't, you know, it should not be a grocery list or like a logistical page. Like I you know. So I'm always trying to find ways to do it interestingly. and I think I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older. you know, there's a the other thing about writing magic that's so tough is like it's all the other thing, another another thing I really can't stand is you know, when you have these kinds of like like the the the magic duel where it's just like, you know, Joe summoned an enormous amount of power, but Tom summoned an even more enormous amount of power, but then Joe summoned more. You're just like, This is not Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha ha. Daniel: writing. You are a jag off. So I I think Like for me the best example of like a magical of magic interaction, magical duel is Merlin and Madam Min from once the Once the Future King or the Disney Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: movie. The Disney movie does it great. where it's just like you should if you're writing this well, the reader should be able to appreciate why each step is clever. They should be able to go like, it's you know, you turned into a walrus. it's cool that you turned into you like You should be doing that. It should never just be a question of one person being like more powerful than another person, because you can't show that on the page. You're just fiating Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yes. Daniel: arbitrarily that one person is better than another person. I can't stand that. I think it's really boring. you know, to me the the the what I'm going for, and it doesn't always work, basically is also like I don't want to describe the specifics of it. I don't want to tell you how I never want to tell you how it works or you know, why this happens or that happens. I want you to be able to read it and be excited by the movements and surprised by the changes. And to be able to understand kind of implicitly just from your knowledge of a as a fantasy reader of how magic kind of exists in in your you know general background understanding, how why what's happening is happening. So, like, yeah, like the the the the duel between them, it's great. They're they're each changing in different animals, in case you haven't seen the movie. you know, so Madame Mim changes to a a worm and Merlin changes to a bird to grab her, and then she changes into, you know, a a beast that's too big to be tapped in the mouth. And you know, so you're following along and you're able to see why you know you can do the math in your hand, right? It's not just someone telling you arbitrarily like Merlin was more powerful, so he beat her with his fire. Like, you know, that's very boring. I don't like that at all. So that was my sort of my goal in in Soft Touch. There isn't a lot of magic for reasons I kind of don't want to get into this point. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah, it's it's a whole like philosophy thing. I loved it though. I thought it was like the perfect amount. I also have a bone to pick every time there's like it's the most powerful character. I I am so bored by characters that are super powerful. I want them to suck. I want Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: them to be flawed. I want them to be bad at things. I want them to be very like weak. I just think it's like it's it's too much of a it's easy to hand wave away so much. And that's like par to me, I associate magic and character growth. And like if they're the most powerful, why should I care about them? Like what struggle do they Daniel: Right. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: have to have then? And like that's I think it's inter it's interconnected with character growth and you they're not inextricable from each other. So I'm and I hate a hard magic system. Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I can't I can't handle a hard magic system. It's just too much. Daniel: No, I don't like it. I also think like a lot of it comes down to just it's not interesting to read on a page. Like it's not Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: i you know, you you can't you don't visualize things that way. So saying someone somebody huge fireball, like I don't that means nothing to me. I don't get anything out of that. You know. It's sort of similar I it's kind of similar to writing action scenes, you know, where I feel like you've gotta find an interesting way to do this a way that isn't just described like he dodged and then he did this. This is like not not interesting to read on a page. I can't I I I get really bored. when I start seeing intimate Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yes. Daniel: descriptions of, you know, this thing and you know, like I don't give a shit. You know, you gotta find a way to do this that that doesn't bore the crap out of me. So, you know, that I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: try to do to that with both. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I mean, I appreciate that. Actually, one thing that you do really well that I really loved in the Soft Touch is I actually think you had just have like a knack for snappy dialogue and like dry humor. As a as a dry witted person who doesn't often encounter it in writing, I really I love that and I kind of envy it. And like anytime I write, I'm like, how would Daniel Polansky write this? And like I do think about that every now and then. I did like I've gone Daniel: gosh. Well thank you. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: I've you're welcome. I've turned back to the soft touch and I've been like, he did this so well, dang it. how do you manage to do it? How do you do how do you like, what do you think of when you're writing these like sharp dialogue scenes. What do you like stand in your kitchen and talk to yourself? 'Cause that's what I do and I don't know if everyone does that. Daniel: Yeah ish. I mean you're definitely like talking it out. I don't really have an answer. I I think, you know, at that Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: at that granular level, writing is like a pretty much a black box process, right? So like, you know, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: when you come up with a a line that you like, it's not there and then it's there. You know, I I I don't have an instruction manual for. Other things you can sort of get you know, like you you under can understand more intellectually, but the actual like line by line, that's kind of a mystery, right? That's part of what's fun about. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. I no, I totally agree with that. I think that there's like there's this tendency, especially with with authors, to try and like categorize stuff and explain how they do things. But the reality is like I don't think there's always an explanation. Like sometimes it just is. And like that it it's how do you do it? I don't know. It just comes to me. And like we want to be able to quantify stuff. People like stuff being in black and white. We like things in defined boxes. Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: And I just don't think some things fall into that. So like that's really cool. I think every author has some stuff that just falls in outside of that. Like there is no containment for it. It just happens. Daniel: Yeah, I mean I think there's reason that like classically artists were thought of as having you know, this was like attributed to some kind of divine intervention, right? Like Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: just because it it remains a mystery to you, right? Like I don't know, you know, f I don't I don't know why a sentence comes on the page. You know, I don't know why why I don't know where that comes from. You know, it it's Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: I don't know. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Half the time it's just conjured up, but it's a shower thought that you're like, put it down really quick. and you don't know where it comes from. But for some reason, hot water makes happen. It's very weird. So with the soft touch, like I've seen some people talk about it. And I unfortunately there's other people who than me who have read it, which I'm very defensive of. Well, good for you, bad for me, because I'm like, hey, get out of my book. Let me talk about Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: it. so when you see people talk about the soft touch, first of all, I imagine that's very surreal experience, but also Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: like when they talk about The soft touch. Is there a is there a theme or like a thing in the story that you personally like attach to and you rarely see people talk about? Like is there an element or like a part of the story that you wish more people would think on or talk about or bring up more Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: often? Sorry, I did not make these questions easy for you. Daniel: No, I mean well this is very specific actually and and sort of peculiar, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: but one of the things I didn't like One of the things I try to do in the soft touch versus low town was to kind of think I'd put this exactly. to create a sort of sense of a diverse world without actually naming, you know, like fake ethnicities and like fake, you know, countries and this kind of a thing. I try to try to try to give that like a a Which is very good without which is very difficult to do, honestly. I and I'm not sure that I did it that well. for s but it was something I was attempting to do, you know, to try and and and and cut down on any of the kind of extraneous backstory. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: and so like if you notice, like I never described not in wood, but like I never just in Low Town I was like there were different kind of races, basically. Races is in terms of human races, not in terms of like else versus, you know. and I cut that out of all of this, like there's no reference to any of that. So I try to sort of that was something I was very consciously kind of trying to do. I don't know why anyone would care about it but me, but you know, that that that that is my answer. I was I was that was an attempt I was making. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay, that's super interesting. Yeah, there's always somet I feel there's always something in a in a book that like an author gets really attached to and then like it they don't see it very often, but it's like near and dear to your heart a little bit. Or like it's something you tried to do or wanted to do. It's something like people don't really notice. And I it's it's nice to draw Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: some attention to the an effort you put in. Daniel: Well you always see the book completely different Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm. Daniel: than any than the a reader. You have a totally different you know, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: relationship to it. so Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, it's your world, which is Daniel: Yeah, you know, like I yeah, you just you know, there's there's just it's it it's apples and oranges. You I don't I I don't really yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, it's that's a difficult one. So, like with actually with Low Town in general, one of the things I wanted to bring up because I feel like I ha I need to, because I looked at your catalog after I finished the soft touch and like, wow, okay. Low town is a far cry from a lot from your other series. a lot of people bring up the builders to me. So I have it on my shelf. I Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: have not read it. Please don't be mad at me. I'm planning on doing dance Daniel: It's fine. You'll like it. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: number. yeah, I'm super excited. I'm gonna do dance number where I read all your books. but these are wildly different worlds. What inspired Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: the the change, the shift? Daniel: I Never wanted to do the same thing twice. I I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: I never want I never really understood those writers who write, you know, twenty books in the same universe. that bores the shit out of me. and even more than that, just just writing the same voice itself. Like I don't wanna I didn't w I don't wanna write I t that's kind of the most fun part is developing the the colloquial language that you're using and sort of the viewpoint of each thing. so I mean it's not like it was a exactly a conscious choice. It was just like everything I've done is different than the thing before that. even like the soft touch, although it's in low town world, it's written in a completely different third person versus first person and it's optimistic versus pessimistic. And so although from a reader's perspective it's in the same setting, from my perspective it was a very different challenge. and so yeah, so I mean I I I I like writing different things. I like I like tweaking my voice. I read in a lot of different genres and on a lot of different voices, so that's probably part of it too. I'm always pulling from new things and and you know, new works that I've read. yeah. So, you know, for better or worse, I never really like a lot of my books are not grimdark. Although the builders is grim dark. but you know, some of the other stuff. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, I was gonna say, the thi the way it was described to me by some of my book club friends is Grimdark Redwall. Daniel: Yeah, it's basically that. I mean th the builder's just very rip dark. It's almost like it's kind of a joke. It's a paste almost with rim dark. I think it's fun, but you Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. Daniel: know, it's it's deliberat it's on the nose. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. that's yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, i would you also count that as like grown up redwall? And the answer is yes. So what was your favorite Redwell book? Daniel: Think I went past like two or three. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha. Daniel: I I was one of these weird kids who like I get entranced by the first character and then was always annoyed Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: when the next generation showed up. Like I would have been pissed now as a kid if like so I read Soft Touch, I don't give a shit about your kid. You know, I don't wanna, you know. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha Daniel: So I think I'm trying to, I can't I can't remember was it Martin or Matthias? Those are the I can't quite remember, but the first it's been 30 years. But the first one, I really love the first one. And then the second Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: one I liked okay. And then like when it kind of plus back when I was a kid and I was reading books like that, I only I didn't want to read anything that wasn't a male protagonist with a sword. And again, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha. Daniel: we're talking when I was about twelve, so it I've grown up a little bit a little bit since then. But I think as as we got deeper Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: That's makes sense. That's normal. Daniel: into it, I like, No, no, I only want to read the most cliche, you know, traditional format. and I refuse staunchly to go in any different direction. But you know, I just think sort of anthropomorphic animals are so much a part of everybody's kind of, you know, like child Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, weirdly. Daniel: background. You know, like it's such a it's it's it's it's honestly such a universal thing, you know, like the Disney Robin Hood I loved growing up and you know, there's just like a Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: lot a lot of things like that. We all kind of get the idea of like, well animals should talk. You know, why wouldn't animals like there's some there's some part of us that's just that seems to make sense too. So yeah, that was sort of what drew back. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay, yeah. I feel like there's just like this captured universal experience that all kids have. Where like it's your I think like it's your brain learning as you grow up to like reconcile the magic that we're given when we're younger and we're like first see everything's brand new to like as we're transitioning Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: from that everything's brand new to our adulthood where everything is old and tired and we're exhausted. there's that sweet Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: middle ground where like for some reason everything is alive when you're a kid. And like it's hard to capture that. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure. I remember I feel really bad when I was a kid if I like broke a pencil. You know, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: like that I I would have you didn't even need to be alive for me to anthropomorphise you. I just was like, my god, my cup broke Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: I'm still like that. If I have like a if I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I broke a coffee mug that I liked the other day, I felt really bad about it. I felt like genuinely guilty. I was walking around like you know. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. I bumped into my coffee table and apologized. I live alone. Daniel: Mm. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: So this I with the with the builders universe, you have cultivated quite an adult, a very specific adult fan base actually. and I'm sure they wanna know, is that a universe you ever plan to revisit as well? Or are you like deal with it? Time to hang the hat and move on. Daniel: Well we'll see. So I actually am have Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: a novel that I'm probably gonna submission with soon, which is sort of loosely in the builders universe insofar as it's Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: like got talking animals. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with the same cast or crew. when you read the builders you'll understand why writing a sequel didn't really make sense. but I I I don't I At this point, I don't want to say never because like I I was sore I would never write another load tapped again. But Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: I really doubt that I would go back and reuse the characters from the builders. I don't I can't stand prequels. I hate prequels. I hate Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm. Daniel: a lot I'm talking about a lot of things I hate this. But I can't stand prequels. I don't know why you're telling me Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Let's go. Daniel: about the thing that's less interesting than the thing that you just told me about. especially because I know what happens in the thing that you're telling me about now. You told me about it already. So like figuring out why Darth Vader Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: There's no risk. Daniel: becomes Darth Vader, like I don't care. I know he becomes Darth Vader, so this is not that Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: interesting to me. so I I and then again I'll everyone kinda dies in the builders, as in most of my books, so it would it would be tough to write a sequence. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Yeah. Prequels are always interesting to me because I feel like the stakes are much lower in a prequel because I already know who lives. It's prepared. Daniel: Yeah. Especially with fantasy, 'cause it's like usually it's like this is you know, you you read this book where it's like this is about the schematic battle between, you know, the forces of God and the forces of Satan. But then twenty years earlier you're like, No no, I don't give a shit. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: We how you just the most important thing that happened in the history of the universe you just chronicled. Like I why do Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: I care about this guy's grandad? This doesn't mat this is these things are not important. Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: This is unimportant to me. Yeah. I'm an I'm an annoyingly curious person. So I'm like, I want to know everything about everything all of the time. But I completely understand, like, there's like a weird sense of safety with prequels where I'm like, I can safely love this character because I know he doesn't die. And like I like the comfort Daniel: Right. Right. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: of that, but that's not for I don't like having my heart ripped out and stomped on all the time. Sometimes I'm like, I need break. All right. I feel like a prequel is like a Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: break within that universe where I don't get stomped on. Daniel: That's fair. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: So you have like you've far more books written than I think people expected, than even I expected when I first looked up your catalog. you have like a post-apocalyptic book, a Hugo Fin a fantasy finalist or fantasy mystery book, you have Portal Fantasy, tons of short stories, a bunch of stuff. how so how do you manage to like keep it all straight in your head when you write in genres? Because you mentioned like people leave doing like one straight thing their whole life, but like how do Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: you manage? Is it just like different facets of your personality that just make that accessible to you? Or like what about how do you do that? Daniel: Do you mean like how do I teach separate or do you mean like how do I get the the new voice? What do you mean is that? Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, how do you like how do you get the new voice for that for those kinds of stories? Daniel: Okay. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Like when you first start out in those books, how do you find that voice? And like do you choose the genre or does the genre choose you and it's just fresh every time? Daniel: More the latter. Like i it Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: is a black box process, but with the language especially they'll just like kinda come to up, like I want to talk like this for a little while. and then that sprawls Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha. Daniel: into into something else. but Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: the one or two times I've tried to like deliberately write in a certain I mean, you know, to a certain degree you're like, okay, I've, you know, I I I got some control over what you're working on. I don't wanna, you know, I'm not a slave to the you know the lighting pulse that strikes me as crazy. Right. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, you have autonomy. You can you can make choices, yeah. Daniel: But you know, normally it's it it is just like the kind of you just the thing grows on you, you like that and you go in the direction that it indicates. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Is when you pick up those genres, is that reflective at all of like what you've been reading a lot or like cons different media you've been consuming? Daniel: I mean, not necessarily like I just read this and this comes up. but definitely everything that I've read over the years follows up. I will say sometimes when you're reading something when I'm reading something that's got a very strong voice, like I read a I was reading Ridley Walker. I was rereading Ridley Walker about six months ago, which is one of the best science fiction novels I've ever written. and it's told in this incredibly strange vernacular, that that's like this post apocalyptic language that that that it's sort of everything's kinda spelled out phonetically, it's extraordinary. Anyway, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I like when I was wr you know, like I'll I'll find myself like, you know, writing too much in that voice when you're like, no, no, this book is not written in a and like it's that's not that's not the voice that you're using in this at all. and you know, you gotta cut yourself loose from that a little bit. But so in that sense it definitely sort of influences what you're doing. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's I I think there's like we're everything we're always influenced by everything all the time. So like you get so it's hard to sometimes remember that it's your voice, it's not this other person's voice. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: So actually that's that leads me to a good a a question that's much easier to answer and much less existential. I'm sorry I get like very specific and weird and existential with my questions. but like Daniel: like Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: much easier, of all the genres that you've written in, because there have been a great many, what would you say was the biggest challenge and which was your favorite? You're in so many. Maybe that was harder, I'm sorry. Daniel: well I mean I I probably my favorite book that I've written is called The Seventh Perfection, which is kind of a like a dying earth s sort of setting, but it's written in this very peculiar style where it's like the the it's all sort of interviews, basically this this unnamed well the this named but you don't hear anything from her voice. Protagonist is like interviewing different people basically, she try tries to file this mystery. so I really enjoyed writing that. you know, that might have been the most difficult from the perspective of like, you know, you're kind of coming up with a new voice for each chapter. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: and But I really enjoyed it, so I mean I I guess that was the most difficult. But I like solving I like Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: solving those kinds of challenges, so it was fun. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Okay. I like that kind of stuff. I'm I'm also a big like I like mentally challenging myself and doing weird stuff. So it's fun. Say yes more than you say no. Okay. So I know that our parents tell us we don't have favorites and I think that's a lie. which book or novella or like short story that you've written would you say is your favorite, like your personal favorite? Just like the most fun, the the thing that you're like, Yes, this is the thing I wanna be known for. Daniel: Probably the seventh profession. I mean it's been published Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: at least. I have some things that were never published that I really like, unfortunately. but yeah, I really like that. That's my kind of book. I like I I like complex language, peculiar language, stylistically strange language. I think there's a lot of fun stuff in it. I like that book a lot. I like the Builders. The Builders is a lot of fun. I Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Ha ha ha. Daniel: wrote a book called A City Dreaming, which I thought was a really fun book. yeah, you know, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, everything's fun. Daniel: I like Tomorrow's Children, which sort of the post apocalyptic book that you reference. Basically that's just completely just feeling off the Warriors. There's not even a that's total warriors are off. But that was fun. I like those. So I just named you for Warwick T. But seventh refection is put a ton in my head. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay, that's awesome. And I just I just don't think people realize how much you've written. You're like you fly under the radar a little bit, which I think is crazy. And apparently Crim Dark magazine also thinks it's crazy. I agree. Daniel: Yeah I do. Well, thank you. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: So I if you go if you could go back in time and like when you're first starting out and you're first writing your first manuscript, you're going out, you're getting things queried, you're writing these letters. In that whole publishing experience, what is one thing that you would go back and change about it or a piece of advice you'd give to your younger self that you think would have changed your trajectory? Daniel: Mm. I would have rewritten substantial parts of low town. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: I don't wanna be too mean about it because like you just shouldn't slag anybody's books, including your own. but it Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: was the first thing that I wrote, the first novel I'd ever written and there's just stuff about it I wish I could change. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: So that probably would be be the thing. I would have I I you know, I I wish I could go that was part of what's funny about doing soft touches, but I could kinda fix some of the the things spiritually Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Got it. Daniel: I I didn't like about Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: that's awesome. Kind of like a soft retcon, which I like. Daniel: There probably are also some like inside inside baseball stuff. I would have done different things with like my manager, my agent and stuff, Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: but you know, I I we don't do it too much for that. I would have re I'd rewrite parts of Logan. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. All right. Awesome. so then, yeah, actually I was gonna ask if there's anything you want to change in one of your books and you already you beat me to it. So I have a final question for you then. And then you are liberated from experiencing the chaotic mealstrom that it's me. what are three books? Daniel: Good 'cause I need to take a nap. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: In that heat, I don't blame you. what are three books Daniel: Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: that you think Everybody should drop everything and read as soon as possible. So if you had to pick your three books, you would tell everybody go and read. And they can be series. They can be series. And I will count that as one book because I'm generous. Daniel: I don't mean to be a cop out, give a cop out, but I I don't have those. Because people are so different. You know, when I when people Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Got it. Daniel: when people ask me for book recommendations, I usually say like what was a book you read that you liked? And then I can kind of give you something. You know, it it it it Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah. Daniel: you know, I just yeah, I just feel like you're giving bad advice. There's no book you're gonna say that half or more than half of the people aren't gonna hate, you know, and so but I'll tell you what, I'll I'll answer that in terms of like if you told me you were a big fantasy fan, you know, and and what are like the what are let's let's kind of leave it at that. I would say everybody should read Gene Wolfe's book of the New Sun, which I think is probably the greatest you know, the only work of high fantasy that belongs in like the the high literature kind of category. This is something that Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: like I'll go to the mat with Gene Wolfe. This guy was about as good a writer as we produced. so I'll say that. I'll say Little Big, by John Crowley, just passed a little while ago. that's a really Beautiful book, and strange and wondrous, in the best place of the word. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: you know, it's basically it's like one of the things that Neil Gaiman just stole flagrantly from and did a shittier version of for his entire career. I just Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: liked him before he was a pervert. and I'll just say Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yes. Daniel: as a third more recent one, I really love Pyranesi Piranesi. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: yeah. Daniel: I I That's a beautiful book, really beautiful. And and original, which is like something I almost never say about books, because there's it's real you know, writing an original book is virtually impossible. and I I I I can't think of even most of my favorite things are I wouldn't say they're original per se. I just say they're excellent executions on the form. But that one really did feel original to me. The world felt original. Again, it had that optimism, which although I am a pessimist, I really I love and appreciate books that can offer me some counterpoint to that. And that's such a lovely such a lovely book. So I think that's a beautiful book. I think those three are great. Those are those are the Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Daniel: three good ways to spend your time. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. Actually, you so I talked with another creator friend of mine who is very we're both deeply like widely analytical people and I we've run into the same issue where like people will be like, give me a book recommendation. And I love doing book recommendations, it's my favorite thing, but I'm always like hyper specific with them because like if you ask me, you're like, Hey, what are three books I should read? I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna need more information than that. Like it depends. Give me more about your background. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean like I think Ulysses is a good book, but like I don't know that I'm gonna throw that at everybody who asked me for a book recommendation. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, I'm I'm not gonna tell people to go pick up a copy of Angela's Ashes anytime soon, but like I think it's beautiful. Yeah, like I grew up in a house Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: that was like that, and I don't think anyone else needs that in their life. my gosh. So this is what where do you have anything else coming out in the near future that people can expect? Okay. Daniel: Not immediately. I don't have anything else right on the horizon, but hopefully that'll change soon. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Okay. Selfishly I agree. if people want to find you anywhere, like social media, where can they find you on social media? Where can they follow you and learn about what you're doing and stuff and just like creep on your life? Daniel: I have a web page as one does. it's Daniel Polanski dot com and my Instagram is Daniel Polanski Author, I think. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. Daniel: yeah. So yeah, look for me there and I'll do things that make me uncomfortable on social media in an attempt to gain your attention. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Perfect. And I hope that it works. It worked on me. Okay. Daniel: Thanks, me too. Otherwise I'm just being uncomfortable for no reason on social media, which is depressing. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Yeah, in the privacy of your home. That's even worse. Where no one can see it. And it's terrible. Well, thank you so much. I super appreciate this. I hope we see more coming out from you. I am just super looking forward to anything else you're gonna be putting into this universe. And I'm looking forward to my personal challenge of Dan Sember, where I read through my entire Dana Balanski shelf. So you'll probably be hearing from me in December. Daniel: Well, good luck. Some are better than others, but I appreciate hearing your feedback. Thank you so much for having me, Sarah. This is awful pleasure. Sarah Does Bookish Stuff: Awesome. Thank you so much. All right.