Alun Williams: Welcome everybody to Smoke Signals, the Heatass podcast. We're really pleased to bring you episode two of this podcast. And we're pretty much at the time now. Heating season f has fully come to a close. The sun is out. We've had a a week of just incredible sunshine, which is the nice quiet time for heatass. It's the time when we get to just spend a bit of time gathering our thoughts, understanding what went right, what went wrong, what we could do better and how we can improve. It's a really good time of the year for us just to take a break and really figure out what we're what we're going to do next. We've had a really good strategy day off site so that we can take a good look at the business and the projects that we intend to do over over the next three years. And that's that's a lot of fun. As always, we're super interested in hearing what you guys think. If you if you think if you have good ideas for the business, if you think we should move in a certain way, if there's opportunities, then absolutely talk to us. We're rule is. So little bits of news. We had Brighton and Hove Council have approved a proposal for a citywide smoke control area. what's really important is that the smoke control area isn't a ban on wood burners. And I know there's been a couple of headlines that kind of give that approach. It it's not the case. It's about better quality fuels, better appliances and better burning. We we've written a new article that's up on the website. You'll be able to see you'll be able to see that specifically heatast.co.uk and I'm pretty sure we'll have a link to it on woodshaw.co.uk as well. it's not an outright burn, it's this isn't the start of the end. it is just making sure that we are using the right the right quality fuels and the right quality appliances. And that's something we support as a business. That is really where we want to be. We want people to be using the best quality fuels and not putting you know not damaging the environment or doing anything harmful. We're we're absolutely for that. we've also dropped an article about Ricoh Heat. So Ricoh Heat is just the most wonderful product. And it's it's a product I always thought could be done, but I never really understood quite how it would be done, if I'm honest. we're really pleased to have it carry the Heatass approved product badge. And Will Burroughs, managing director, super nice guy. I met him at the SIA show. he Could not wait to tell me about the product and how it works. And I think it's definitely something you should check out. I am in other news, we're also looking for HETAS registrants to further their skills, support the industry, and potentially be part of what we do here at Heatas. We we have job vacancies, and where we don't have vacancies, we're still open and interested in speaking to as many of you as possible about being HTAS inspectors, about being trainers, about being assessors. People that can work with our industry. I think I can speak rather frankly, having come from the construction industry, you get to you get to an age where you gather lots of skills, but your body doesn't always quite agree with with the skill set, and I certainly am have been feeling that way. We do not want to lose you in the industry. We really want to keep as many of you as as we can in the industry, and there are lots of opportunities that we have at Heatas. and in the wider industry to keep that knowledge that skill set for those those of you in the industry. We sent out a couple of emails. there are some links on those emails. Drop us a line. Tell us tell us what you're good at. Tell us if you think you'd like to help or be part of part of Heatas. That can be potentially as an employee, as a subcontractor. we're open to everything. But we have this huge amount of industry industry knowledge and we want to keep that. We don't want to lose you guys and have you have you not work as as part of the industry so do do make contact and again we'll make sure that there's a link on the on the website and in the description of this video so that you can register your register your interest in in working with us. Even more news we've released technical bulletin 39 that went out at the beginning of May. So you can find that and all the other technical bulletins on the Heatas technical hub as always and as always if you have questions phone the technical helpline I've actually had the pleasure, it's taken me far too long to to meet with the technical helpline team. Some of the some of the guys are remote. And the amount of knowledge that those guys have is just unbelievable. And the same with our consumer lines and the complaints lines. We have some incredible staff at the at the end of our phone lines and every now and then they just blow me away with the level of detail they're able just to retain, let alone all of the the options and the books and the information that we hold on. on our records, but just the ability for them to retain that information and to be able to talk to talk to you is just great. And they do like talking to you that so give them a call. if you've got any questions, any queries, they'll be able to they'll be able to support you. So with that, we have today our guest is an in another internal guest. It's the wonderful Ben Harvey. Ben is the training manager here along with lots of other roles. He's recently taken over looking after the inspections team And he is a man with absolutely incredible energy and a brilliant work drive. We're gonna talk to you a bit about training today and potentially the good bits about training. We're gonna be a bit honest about some of the the negative points about training and also what we're gonna do about it. I think I said when I met many of you at the SIA show, don't judge us on our words, judge us on our actions. and Ben is a personification of that. He is a guy that just gets it done. And we'll be talking a little bit about the training, the changes to training and how we are improving that going forward, but also how we're how we're working to develop those each year so that we can we can keep those improvements and keep that feedback, keep that feedback loop. So without further ado, let's bring in Ben. Okay, so welcome Ben to the TTAS podcast. I am excited to talk to you about training because training is something that's really important to us at HTAS. We obviously need everybody to to train every five years, is it? I think it's every five years. Five years, yeah. Every five years. And that's really important to keep up with their their competence. But training is something that I get people talk to me a lot about about training. So before we get too deep into it, just give me a quick introduction, who you are, what you do, and what is your typical what does your typical day look like? Yeah, so I'm Ben. I am service delivery manager here at HETAS and my typical day, So I oversee the training team, I oversee business development and inspections. Basically the whole start of someone's journey to registration with us lines within myself. my typical day, to be honest, is come in, check my emails, which there's usually a lot, check in with each team, go around, have a look, see what's happening, see what the day looks like, what any issues that are arising. And then get down with the team and work out actually what kind of efficiencies and what progress and where we're at with projects as well. So yeah, overseeing three separate departments. We we work with approved training centres. How many approved training centres do we have now? And what is the approved training centre? Yeah, so we have fourteen approved training centres across England, Scotland and Wales. an approved training centre is a centre that is separate to HETASP but is basically able to deliver HETAS training and is accredited by us to do so. Awesome. So why why are they important? Why do we need approved training centres? Could they not just sit and exam online or watch a YouTube video? Wouldn't that be a bit quicker? Approved training centers are important. A they're our closest reach to our registrants. They are the face-to-face interaction. But also for the type of role that these people are doing and the type of work that they're doing on a day-to-day, they need that hands-on experience. They need to be able to be into a center learning. It's not something you can just pick up online. There are certain elements of it that certainly you could pick up online, but the actual practical side of it is the benefit of an approved training center. It's going in, it's having that conversation and it's also speaking with the other people in that in that course. You get people from all different walks of life joining training. at all different sorts of stages as well. Some people have experience and some people don't. That's what the importance of them is. I know from my experience with the built environment, I've watched at the training centres that we've run or or been part of, the most incredible business relationships happen through the training centers. So you end up with two people that will get along during a training center and end up going into business together and and I've seen it where they've you know had a massive impact on the industry. Just two people and five years later they they're doing a huge percentage of the work in the country just between between a business that's created. So I I do the human element of the approved training centres can never be ov overstepped because it is really important to keep up with those industry contacts. Yeah, and we see that as well. So we do see that through the Heat House training centers. We see the relationships that people build. Also the nature of the industry that we're in is someone needs to start somewhere. So quite often or not we'll see Someone that's quite experienced and has been with Heatas and has been through the training, picking up someone that is just going through the training and actually wants to start out and taking them within their business to be able to further their skills. Yeah, it's a good it's a good way of picking up picking up new people and and new labor for your for your business. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So who's your favorite training center? No, I can't tell you that. They're all my favorite. We can edit that bit. They're all my favorite for their own reasons. Cool. So training has been revamped recently, which is just brilliant to see. It as I said, it's one of the bits that I get spoken to most when I'm out and about training. The word repetition comes up a lot. People are really they feel especially if they're multi multi accredited by us or multi certified by us that they have to reset some of the training. A lot. So what's what's changed in the last in the last few months? Because I we re-released and we relaunched the way that training works. Do you want to talk to me about how what those changes are? Yeah, so I think you've you've hit the nail on the head. The main reason for the change was the repetition. So you would go in and you could potentially sit an installer training course, and then you might then in a year's time think, actually, I want to become a chimney sweep. So you would then go in and sit a chimney sweeping course. What we saw there was actually a lot of repetition in the actual units that you're trained on. So by stripping it back a little bit and putting it into a more structured route, the time for that installer isn't spent repeating the same information that they know, or it's actually spent learning about what they need to know for their key elements of their role. So what we've done is introduced kind of a core module situation. So everybody that comes in will do the core training course. That is one piece. That's the you're kind of basic. That's your starter. What then happens from there is you then go on and you can go and do several different routes depending on the scheme type or the type of work that you want to do. so you could go on and you could do chimney and flues. And then from there you would then be able to go on and do the dry appliance, or you could go straight from the core and then just do the sweeping or do servicing. There's multiple different routes, but by doing this, it eliminates the need to cross over and relearn that same stuff that you could have learnt some cases three months ago. It's time consuming for them. And actually when they go into a center and they're paying for this training, they do want value for money. They do want to be able to actually their time is valuable. They could be out and they could be Earning money. So by them going into a center to take that time to actually invest in themselves, they need to be giving and receiving exactly what they want and what they need from training. So rather than just repeating the same things, it's actually you go in and you learn exactly what you're needing to learn. And that's why you've booked onto that course. Yeah, I think it's a really good, it's a really good thing. I think the way That we've structured it now with core and individual modules. It also allows you to sit those modules at different times. We know people are busy or they have prior commitments, they're able to go and do the core at one point. And it may be that actually next week, or they miss the core and they can jump on to part of the training course, they can go back and do another part of that training course the following week or a few weeks' time, depending on when it's run by that center. So you don't necessarily now have to take four days out of your out of your week and not earn for four days and pay for training. It's almost a double whammy. So it can fit around. Yeah, it can fit around your work as well. So like you said, you could go in on a Monday if that's your day that you've got free, you could do one aspect of that training, you can get that part complete. You could then go back in a week later, a year later, a month later, however long that is for you and whenever that's suitable, you could then go in and do that additional piece of training. So yeah, the flexibility with it is real beneficial to our installers, but also our training centers as well. For them, it's easier to be able to schedule those courses, which basically means we can put on more courses to meet the needs of our registrants. So what's the most I mean we must get feedback from from this change. What's a positive piece of feedback and what's a maybe negative piece of feedback that you've received so far? We do get feedback. We get a lot of feedback. And yes, it's not always good, but if we just got all good feedback, we wouldn't really know where to improve. So all feedback to us is valuable. Now, in terms of the good feedback that we've received so far, is a mix from the centres and also from the delegates or the learners that are going into centers. So for the centers, the feedback is it's easier to schedule. They feel like they're actually giving something more to these people that are going in to learn. from The candidates, the course feedback is it's nice to have a bit more structure, it's clearer routes to schemes, it's just easier to follow. They're not actually time and they're taking in a lot more from it. That's the main key feedback that we're getting. In terms of negative, I think as with any change, there's always going to be a level of negative feedback. I think the negative feedback we've had is the confusion around, okay, well, I used to do this course, so what am I now doing? and that's where again with that feedback, we've been able to implement some from our marketing team. So we've got a course root checker. so you can go on and you can click in exactly what course you had previously. That will tell you exactly what course you need to do now as per the new core modules. Yeah, and that's actually course checker is really Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned it because it's a really handy tool that they can go on and see if I am a chimney sweep, here is the what I now need to do. specifically to book on or if I'm an installer or if I've got you know an we would call it an ad op but if I've got multiple qualifications that that I do or or I'm certified for these are now the courses you need to do for for your refresher. So definitely shout out to our marketing team for getting that up on up on the website and you can see that on heatask.co.uk I'll make sure there's a a direct link down in the description for people that want to use that. So we try to you know I think as Ben says Inevitably there will always be kickback just because there is change. But it is change for a good reason. But change once we get through a cycle, a five year cycle, I think this will become so natural to people that they're able just to to get the bits of training done that they that they need to get. Okay, next question. I actually don't have a next question. What's the next question? Charlie, is there a good question? What do we Barry, I thought you'd be more prepared than that. banner. Yeah. It wasn't me. It's a host problem. Definitely is a host problem. let's talk about questions about about training in B D maybe. Okay, so with the training department you run, you have some really good people that work with you that have this knowledge. For those of you for those that just aren't quite as savvy on the internet, they can still phone the the BD team, right? We call it the BD team, the business development team, but really they are borderline consultants. They they're people that are experts to help you. So th they're still there, right? Yeah, they're still there. So we have a direct training line where you can call and you can speak to us. We also have the B D team, which more so will point you in the direction of what training you can do. and they'll work backwards. If you tell them your end goal, they will tell you exactly what you need to do to get there. And they are usually the first point of call when you finished your training as well. So we do prefer to still pick up that phone and have that interaction with you because also that's where we gain some of the feedback. That's the first conversation that we will usually have with you after you've completed the training. So yeah, they're all still there. That's good. yeah. I'm glad you said fe feedback because that's actually something for those who've listened to the first episode and and have met me and particularly the team, I talk about feedback a lot and continuous improvement a lot. And if I say the word Kaizan, Ben will smile. it's a it's a thing in the business that we try and do, we continuously improve. And actually something that we're definitely doing in the training department. So this this change in the way we we run the modules has been I think it started way before I joined. I can't claim credit on any of this. No, you can't. But we're now at the point of of continuously improving those courses. We don't just want to say, right, here are the 2026 modules and nothing is going to change for another five years. talk to us a little bit better about the continuous improvement work that we're doing, particularly with with Oli. Yeah, so our training historically hadn't been updated for quite some time because it didn't necessarily need to be. But also in the industry, things do change so fast. So what we now do is throughout that year, if there's any changes with the new structure, it's easier to be able to slot in those changes as and when they arise if they're an urgent one. So we can ensure that that message is going out to all of the candidates that are in the training centers. As part of that as well is we're then logging all of those changes. So We have our technical project manager who is basically responsible for writing that material. So I'm not going to take credit for that. So he will review that every single year throughout the year continuously. And then at the end of every year we'll collate all of these updates and we'll basically put that into that learning and that development and that training document. And that will then be shared with the centers as an update. So then they can go through and they can ensure that they're delivering the most up-to-date course content. So that's done every single year. not to say that it wouldn't happen if there's been some big changes in the industry or in any of the requirements or any of the conditions of registration, that's where then we'd just be able to change that at any point. But the year mark is really where we are aiming for every single year to come out with a new published version. So when you're sitting your refresher, you will sit a different course ever so slightly to what you have sat previously with those updates. Yeah. I and I think that's in that's really important so that we don't fall into that trap where You sit the same course that you did five years ago. the other great thing from that is that we have the Building Performance Hub now within the Cleaner Safer group. So the Building Performance Hub is our new development center. But we have adapted a center that exists now in our group and we're able to use that to develop the training that we're doing. So sometimes, you know, we're not always going to get it right, but what the development center allows us to do is to go out into the wider market, make a change. But also track that change. So for instance, we may add a module, we may add something or take something away, and we're able then to track the registrant throughout the next five years and say, do they have less complaints than average or more complaints than average? Or when the people that did this module have X different results compared to the Y people that didn't do this module. And that's the idea of this continuous development is that we pick up on that feedback, what worked, what didn't, and that's why it's so important to feedback to us. We can then make that change. We test it in the development centre. And if it works, it goes out into the next run or the next booklets that that go out. It the approved training centers then get trained on what those changes are. And it may be it could be anything, it could be tweaks, but it actually could be entire rigs. We we could encourage people to build rigs, or we say this really worked, and actually this was a really much better way of showing people how to do something, and we're gonna support those approved training centers in creating those rigs that are needed in order to improve that level of training or the having the right tools. I think that's something that's really important that people see the building performance hub. This isn't just an approved training center that exists and that we're competing and and the Cleaner Safer group is doing this. It's it's a center that we inherited that we're going to use for positive impact. And I'm really proud that we're able to to try these things and check that they work before we go out into the wider world and what we don't want to do is enforce a change that simply doesn't work out in in the real world. We we've got an opportunity to try that first and make sure it is the right choice. Okay, thanks Ben for coming on the the Heatas podcast. It's great to have you, it's great to have you as part of the team and it's great to have your team working to keep the standards high in the industry and keep pushing to make that training better. and just to have more value for the people that are doing that training. and I think it's it's a really good thing. I think when people come to to retrain, they're gonna really start to see the the benefits and they'll feel the impact and see the nice updated books that we have and I think it people will really start to see at that point the amount of hard work that's gone in over the last couple of years to to make that happen. so thanks Ben. Great to see you and I'm sure we'll be back on it at some point. We can do an entire episode on inspections one day. We'll do inspections, we can do B D, we can do all of them. There's loads. Yeah, we'll we'll certainly have some fun. Thank you for your time. No worries. Okay, thank you so much, Ben, for coming on. That was really great to to hear about training and the positive changes that we're making as a business to just improve that level of training that we do. I know training has always been good. But the change to the the way we handle things is just going to be a definite improvement for the company. Next episode, we're gonna be talking about fuels and what we burn and why and how and moisture and content and arsenic and other stuff that gets tested in in fuels that we have. There are some pretty crazy things in there. There's loads of different schemes. We're gonna talk pellets, we're gonna talk about Just the standard stuff that we buy at the local petrol station and everything in between. We're gonna bring on some of our experts across the across the company to answer some of those questions. In the meantime, follow us on all the socials Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can look us up, Heatas, Woodshaw, and also follow Cleaner Safer Group for the generic company announcements. We'll see you on the next episode. See you then.