Alun Williams: Okay, welcome everybody to the yet-to-be named podcast. So this is our Heatas podcast all about solid fuel. We're going to cover off a lot of the Woodshill stuff as well. So we're going to talk about biomass, we're going to talk about the industry, we're going to talk about stoves, we're going to talk about installation, we're going to talk about competent person schemes and standards, and we're going to try and have a bit of fun doing it. So I'm your host, I'm Barry Cope. I'm the chief executive of the Cleaner Safer Group. We're also going to talk a little bit more about what the Cleaner Safer Group is, what it does. We're gonna get right into that. Joining me today, we have producer Alan on the ones and twos behind the scenes. ⁓ we also have our communications executive. I've just learned that that job title. so we have our good friend Charlie ⁓ trying to keep us on the straight and narrow. This is actually the second time we recorded the podcast. First time we had a lot of fun doing it. It just didn't quite ⁓ didn't quite go as we as we thought it would. So we brought backups. We brought some spare people to make sure we can stay on the straight and narrow. We can we can keep it well. What's the point of this podcast? Well, one of the things I think that Heatas does do, we communicate very well in a lot of our mediums. We talk a lot on our social media. We send out good, lengthy technical documentation. But I think one of the things we ⁓ we don't quite do, and this is what the gap of this podcast is to fill. is to talk to our members more. And nowadays it's very difficult to to not be working and attend big events. Those days ⁓ it just it's just not the same as as it used to be. I used to attend big conferences with ten thousand people. ⁓ we have less and less of those in the industry. So we're gonna try something new. We're gonna talk to you on our podcast. Those of you that travel around a lot for work can download a copy of this. It will be available on Amazon Music, Spotify, Apple Music. Wherever you get your podcasts, we'll try and get it out as many places as we can. Sometimes we'll have a bit of show and tell, might have some props. ⁓ but let's get right into it. Today's episode, we're gonna start by kicking off and talking about the very recent Defra consultation that came out. It's actually now closed. By the time we ⁓ we air this episode, it's been closed. Heatas have given a pretty lengthy a lengthy response, and that's Charlie. Who's with us now on the on the ones and twos behind the scenes? Charlie's job was to collate so much information, and he's done a brilliant job of doing that. We really needed to collate a lot of that information so that we could, you know, we're taking into account the views of our members, we're taking into account the views of our technical staff, the views of our commercial staff, the general public that talk to us a lot as well. We had to take into account as much as we possibly could. So we're going to talk about actually what that. consultation consisted of. We're going to talk about some of our responses. Some of you may know I'm not really from this industry. So I've been now with ⁓ with Heatass and Woodshaw as part of the Cleaner Safer group for for nine months and I'm still very much on my learning journey. So what better way for me to document and to and to learn than actually just do the podcast? Just record it so you can hear me ask some silly questions. So if I do ask some silly questions, it's probably because I just don't know the answer to it. ⁓ I think one of the biggest strengths you can have is knowing your weaknesses. So I'm gonna bring in some technical expertise. We're gonna talk about the response we made. We're gonna talk about why why we did some certain things and I'm gonna question. I'm gonna do the thing that, you know, makes our marketing team nervous. I'm gonna question why we do certain things and why we don't say certain things. Because there's always reasons and there's always ⁓ you know, there's always deeper reasons than that I don't know about, this history that I don't know about that we can ⁓ we can go into hopefully we always have the opportunity the beauty of a podcast is we can edit out anything that that doesn't get in. So there may be maybe some stuff that gets left on the cutter on the floor, but hopefully not. As you'll as you'll hear, this isn't designed to be the perfect podcast. This isn't designed to be a big marketing tool and super polished. We we want it to be a little bit raw. We want it to to bring in people from the industry ⁓ that can talk to us open and honestly. So that we can tell you, you know, how we are doing things or you know, where we where we think we're doing well and and where we're not doing well. Finally, before I bring Calvin in, make sure you obviously like and subscribe. That sounds like a ⁓ a standard thing we all need to say on our podcasts. But like and subscribe. If you're if you're watching on one of the mediums, you can do that. It doesn't cost you a penny to ⁓ to subscribe. And also talk to us. I'm desperately gonna read these comments. Tell us what you like, tell us what you don't like. Tell us who you would like as a guest. That would be helpful for us. We have a big long list of people we're gonna bring in through this first season. But it'd be really helpful if you if you can think of somebody that that may be really good for us to talk to. So we're gonna try and get local government. We're gonna speak to ⁓ well hopefully speak to some installers, definitely gonna speak to at least one sweep, maybe a couple more. We're gonna talk to fuel suppliers, we're gonna talk to anyone that will actually talk to us. Very, very final point. I mentioned at the very opening. We don't have a name for this podcast yet. ⁓ there's actually a bit of a debate and a bit of a competition going around the office as to what we should call it. But if you've got anything funny, I mean, by the time this goes out, we've probably got a name for it. But maybe we can rename it for season two. So tell us some ⁓ some funny puns that we can we can name the podcast. So with that, I'm gonna bring in our first guest, ⁓ Calvin May. Calvin is our head of technical. What this guy doesn't know about Solid fuel isn't worth knowing and ⁓ really proud that he is one of ours and we can go to him. The industry can phone, ⁓ we can speak and and he's part of our ⁓ part of our senior leadership team. So what what better person to bring on than to talk talk to Calvin? So we're gonna bring him in from backstage and ⁓ let's see you on the other side. Welcome Calvin. I don't know if you could hear any of the intro. This is the first episode. We changed the way we set up the mic, so was you able to hear ⁓ Yep, can hear you loud and clear. Perfect. ⁓ also enjoying the background. We ⁓ we decked out one of the meeting rooms here f to be you know, make sure the audio quality when we're recording this podcast is is really good. But we don't have any fancy logos behind me, just these interesting lines. So I'm enjoying the fact that we've got an ice heat ass logo behind you. Something I might need to I might need to do for future episodes. Give yourself a little introduction. Yeah, so for those who don't know me My name's Calvin May. I'm the head of technical services here at HETAS. Been in the industry for about 16 years or so. So ⁓ quite a long time. Been through quite a lot of policy changes, quite a lot of innovation pieces ⁓ throughout the industry. I currently do a number of roles here. So I currently manage the HETAS technical helpline. So any installers out there who ring in for technical advice, ⁓ you may have spoken to me over the phone. ⁓ it's always good to speak to installers, get their feedback, ⁓ understand exactly what's going on in the field. ⁓ understand the issues that people are experiencing and how standards, technical information, guidance can help resolve a lot of the issues and ⁓ innovation pieces that ⁓ that come to the forefront of the market every day. ⁓ the other element is I currently work a lot in the standards arena. So I sit on a lot of BSI committees championing standards for both the UK and across Europe. So a lot of the policy changes into terms of things like eco design, Deaf for exemption, appliance testing standards, installation standards, I've probably been at the forefront of a lot of them, alongside a lot of the other members of the industry. So yeah. Good, good, good podcast to ⁓ to start off with and hopefully I can ⁓ I can provide some insights and things of what's going on ⁓ now and into the future. I to ask you a question, what's the biggest thing that's changed from when you first started here? Was it it's nearly twenty years, it has to be. What was it? What's the biggest change that you've seen from back then to today. We only had six members of staff. So I think I was the seventh. As you can imagine, Heatas has grown massively in that time over that sixteen years. We now got around seventy-three members of staff. So a substantial amount of growth that we've had ⁓ internally. We've taken on a lot of contracts. ⁓ we now do the Woodshore Ready to Burn scheme, we do the Ready to Burn MSF, the DEFRA contract. ⁓ so all of those sort of changes in terms of staff and more people has has been warranted. ⁓ But from a from a standards point of view, I think the biggest thing for me is when I first started, there were no regulations around emissions. The only requirement there was was for CO and PMs for smoke control areas. ⁓ and things have come on massively sort of in those sixteen years or so. We now have a lot more robust processes in terms of what we certify as products, ⁓ installers, training centers, retailers. It really has come a long way and it's a credit to the industry that things have been and and grown that rapidly in such a sh short space of time, and it's important that we carry on doing it. you say that's made things safer? Would that be a good in in those nearly twenty years for the industry? So again, we're always learning. Every day's every day's a learning day. Like you say, there's more innovative products that have been brought to the market. ⁓ so things like insulation boards, direct air kits, all of these come to the market and it's about making sure the standards of things keep up. So it's about making sure that they could be fitted safely, all the remits are are covered. Testing, any t required testing is also covered as well to make sure that when they're put into people's homes. That they can operate them both safely and environmentally friendly. Excellent. So moving on to the DEFRA solid fuel consultation. ⁓ give me in in sixty seconds what they can sell. It's really interesting one. So obviously over the last sort of since my time and and sort of fifty years since the Clean Air Act came into fruition, appliances and fuels have always been required to meet certain emissions limits to make sure that you can burn them responsibly. And I think now with a lot of the sort of the the the press that's going on and and government are are starting to listen and starting to understand that there are technologies out there that ⁓ that are better than others. And it's about making sure that ⁓ that that consumers when purchasing products are pushed to the right sorts of appliances so we can ⁓ we can continue to meet our air quality impacts, continue to burn things responsibly and we can move away from some of the older, inefficient cost, you know, cost heavy technologies like open fires and move With the times, move with innovation, save a bit of money in the ⁓ in the long run as well. So you mentioned there about emissions, and I know something is one of the big discussion points in the consultation is about the amount of grams per hour. ⁓ so we're suggesting the move takes us from five grams an hour down to one gram an hour for for new stoves. What do we mean when we're talking about five grams an hour? So essentially any carbon intensive fuel will emit some form of pollutants when it's burned, ⁓ gas, oil, solid fuel, ⁓ they all do. And it's about making sure that the ⁓ things like PM two point fives, which is ⁓ which is shorthand for particulate matter, ⁓ are essentially we're only emitting ⁓ limits that meet guidelines. ⁓ and that when they're fitted in the home, they're installed correctly so that they're dispersed through a a a fully functioning chimney out into atmosphere. So It's all about making sure that we continue to reduce our air quality impacts because at the end of the day we all breathe the same air. We all want improved air quality. And it's about making sure that solar fuel heating goes along with our journey as well. Okay. So do you think going from five grams to one gram is achievable if if ⁓ DEFRA made the decision or local government made the decision to to switch that on overnight and say as of tomorrow it's one gram an hour? It's an interesting concept because it's always difficult to set limits because it needs to meet whole host of different criteria. ⁓ we did some manufacturer surveying and feedback and understandably I think most of the industry are on board with things. I I think if you look at our certification data, I think ninety three percent of our cleaner choice appliances would meet it. So if this policy came into fruition tomorrow, you'd still be able to purchase ninety three percent of the the list of cleaner choice appliances that are on our scheme already. So it shows that manufacturers are already doing it. ⁓ I think there's just some research and development for some of the older models that are quite popular. There's a lot of brand loyalty out there. People understand they have the brands that they like, the operational practices that they're used to. ⁓ and it's just about shifting behaviour really. It's about pushing people towards when they decide on what type of appliance that they want, thinking about the environmental impacts alongside things like efficiency, aesthetics. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a complete behavioural shift for the consumer. But it's something that we need to do for Yeah. Which I mean it makes sense to me. I I I'm I'm concerned that turning on overnight would ⁓ would cause a lot of the smaller companies and maybe some of the really bigger companies a lot of ⁓ a lot of issues. It's a very short amount of time potentially to to innovate. So would a three or five year lead in be more appropriate? Give them a bit of time to ⁓ to make sure their product line. I think the transitional piece is is an interesting one. I think it's one that needs discussion, which are why I think it forms part of the consultation. ⁓ there are benefits to it. Like you say, it gives small and medium enterprise businesses time to do their RD, understand their product ranges, put their things through test. we're quite in a challenging time at the moment in that ⁓ we don't have many recognized testing institutes for people to undertake testing to verify their emissions. And the other argument is is about making sure that we don't flood the market with particularly non-EIP, non-eco design stoves. And we do it over a pro longer period setting timescales. is always a is always a benefit mapping out a a journey. You know, a roadmap journey can also help as well. So that if if we decided tomorrow or in next year, we're not waiting until the 31st of December for a whole host of non-compliant appliances flooding the market because like we say, stoves can last a substantial amount of time, 20 plus years. So it's about making sure we do it in the right way and there is a transitional piece. But it's all relates to how the policy is worded and how regulation around the consultation formulates it properly. We talk about Placing on the market. So that's when a manufacturer first places a product on the market. It's about making sure that that fits in with the criteria of of stoves, not flooding the market in one, you know, jump. So you mentioned about testing. I've always been intrigued. How on earth do you test grams per hour from a from a new stove? Now I know that you mentioned that there's less and less companies doing the testing, which is is going to be an industry problem, but how how do How do they test? It seems like such a tiny amount for such a a raw industry. Without getting too technical, there are a number of ways that you can do it. So there's recognized standards that we have here in the UK. ⁓ there's a recognized standard in Norway, and there's a recognized standard over in Germany as well. ⁓ but essentially it's about making is it's about making sure that what's done in the testing lab marries up with what happens in the real world when it's in somebody's home. So it's always quite a difficult challenge. You need standardized testing within a laboratory. So essentially what they do is they hook it up to what we call an electrostatic precipitator and they run the appliance in line with the manufacturer's instructions, like you would do if you were burning in the home. And they essentially run it for one cycle of around forty five minutes, ⁓ measure the concentration of pollutants in the flue gases through this clever, very clever, sophisticated piece of equipment. They weigh it beforehand, they weigh it afterhand, and obviously the difference in weights gives you an a sort of an idea of ⁓ of how many of relevant pollutants it's collected within that burn cycle. And then it's recorded, written into a test report, and then manufacturers ⁓ can essentially use that to market their products best best versus worst, really. Yeah. I mean that's pretty incredible that they're measuring over quite a short period of time and measuring such a tiny amount of of pollutants coming out of the ⁓ out of the flue of the stove and then doing it to such accuracy. What's the lowest accuracy? I think the ESP is recognized of picking up around ninety eight percent of the particulates that are emitted. So it is one of the most accurate and robust emissions methodologies that we have. And it's nice to know it's the UK sort of leading the way on ⁓ on robustness ⁓ in terms of that as well. So yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. Coming back to the the DEFRA consultation, one of the the topics that's discussed is about periodic retesting. Periodic retesting of stoves. So right now, as I understand it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, ⁓ you can put a stove out onto the market. You have to do quite a lot of testing and certification to get a product out onto the market. But once it's out there there typically is no retesting or no checking that something hasn't changed outside of any kind of C E marking laws or UK C A marking laws and ⁓ you can't substantially change something It's about learning about some of the other certification schemes that exist. So there's surveillance and things like the wood shore ready to burn on the fuel side and also on the manufactured solar fuel side as well. Surveillance is is is a really important one. I think when we learn from those schemes that there are there is a bit of a a bit of a gap in enforcement. And I think surveillance testing, it just helps you collate that really sophisticated data and it gives you a viewpoint about how appliances over the years are shifting in terms of how they perform. We know that appliances are serviced on a regular basis, chimneys are swept. So again, if if follow the sort of the the the surveillance framework that they have for those other schemes, we can we can get some really sort of Hardcore data that we can then utilize and it'll help us be more accurate in our air quality emissions inventory data that we have. ⁓ it will help paint a better picture about how far stoves do contribute to ⁓ our air quality impacts. There are some things that we can do to improve things. ⁓ there's things like source apportionment, so understanding exactly what types of particulates are formulated when we, when we, when we burn, you know, solid base fuels. ⁓ and I think these those things are sort of in the pipeline at the moment. ⁓ but it is sort of a a a future a future project, ⁓ something that ⁓ that the industry's looking at which will help massively. One of the things that's always interested me, Calvin, was how do we actually test stoves? I mean what what's what does the process look like? ⁓ 'cause the amount we're measuring is incredibly small. Yeah, absolutely. So everything is done under laboratory conditions. ⁓ we have it that way so that we can standardize appliance testing across the many relevant EU member states. ⁓ and again, it's about ensuring that we sort of mirror real life burning practices as best that we can because obviously a stove in a laboratory is going to operate completely differently to a stove in somebody's home. ⁓ a lot of test methodologies use things like force draft, whereas when you put it out to somebody's home it's it operates under natural draft as well. So It's about making sure that we replicate real life as possible, but do it in such a way that ⁓ that that th that there's re repeatability ⁓ in terms of appliance testing. And it's probably what you think of. So essentially there'll be a little rig that will look like a little recess ⁓ in the laboratory and they'll put the appliance in there and then ⁓ essentially just operate it in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions over a around a forty five minute burn cycle. And what they'll do is they'll measure the flue gases through a through a natural draft chimney through what we call an electrostatic precipitator. And essentially that collects a lot of the PM pollutants or smoke pollutants. And then they essentially take it to a weighing room and they weigh it before the test started and weigh it afterwards. And the differentials in weight will tell them how much of the pollutants were collected on the ESP. It's incredibly it's incredibly scientific. I just love the balance between the kind of science of it and how delicate and how accurate the readings are. and the kind of nature of just solid fuel. The contrast for me is always ⁓ is always super interesting. ⁓ next question is about periodic retesting itself. So if we do periodic retesting, this is in the DEFRA consultation, ⁓ we we speak about it being in every five years or so, I think was mentioned in the consultation. Mike, yeah, I've got a nod from ⁓ a nod from Charlie. So there there was a discussion or a line of conversation about periodic retesting and having stoves retested every five years. Well not the not existing ones, ⁓ the new ones that are that are coming out onto the ⁓ onto the market. Because I think if I'm right, technically, although you have to do a lot of testing to get a stove on the market, once it's out there, ⁓ there's no requirement for for retesting. So surveillance is is apparent in things like the ready to burn contract for wood-based fuels and ⁓ and and solid manufactured fuels. And again, a lot of the research we do with suppliers shows that there are large thinking in terms of gaps and things on things like surveillance. ⁓ and even with surveillance, there are improvements that can be made. So yeah, I think with innovation kicking off with appliance technologies, there's things like catalytic converters being put into appliances now. ⁓ people manufacturers are trying to make stoves as clean as possible. So innovation really does take hold and it is quite a very a very fast process. So it's about making sure that those changes don't impact things too much and and we're confident and we're confident that we can go to government officials to show them that when appliances do change, it's not having a detrimental impact on our air quality emissions. So I'm fully in favour of supporting a surveillance regime. We just need to make sure that it's tailored in the right way. It supports all elements of the industry. It supports small and medium enterprises. So there are a number of options that we have. We can even mandate five yearly testing. Or we could go for a halfway hybrid house where we could look at something like a FPC, which is a factory production control procedure where assessors actually go to manufacturing facilities and make sure that what's being manufactured on the product line marries up with things like their quality processes, the standards that we utilize every day and makes an assessment on that. It's a it's it's a lot cheaper, it's a lot less investment. So again, it's just about making sure that ⁓ that that we do it in the right way that supports the industry in meeting compliance really. Yeah. I I'm glad you went down that road because I was interested in I have a couple of reference points for it. So many people well hopefully at least some people that are watching will know me from the Air Tightness world and one of the things we did a lot of is calibrate the equipment we used. And really, year to year, nothing ever changed. ⁓ we would test everything every year and there were certain bits of kit that regularly would fall out of calibration and just met the end of their life cycle. But the actual blow it all fans themselves rarely changed all that much. It was just the occasional one here or there. So testing always felt or recalibrating always felt ⁓ in a lot in a lot of occasions, a lot of times just not quite ⁓ I wouldn't say worth the money because we were finding ones that that were broken, but it just felt a bit too much sometimes. And from my other hat back with my ⁓ I used to work for BM Charter, we used to do the five door testing, five door certification. And they had this wonderful hybrid system where there would be factory production control that would enable people to go to the factories, make sure things haven't changed. And with that you could adjust your ⁓ burning schedule. ⁓ so you still had to do lots of burning and and fire. ⁓ fire doors obviously being a life safety piece of equipment was important to do so. But the factory production control was the bit I was most interested in because really if you're on if you're innovating a new product or a couple of your products each year. You don't really want to have to send products that you've been selling for twenty five years through five yearly cycle changing if nothing is changing, if they have the same suppliers, the same people, the same the same everything. So having the option I think would be really good for the industry. Yes, there does need to be some form of of check and some form of control, but ⁓ for some small companies having five yearly retesting would sink them. I mean this isn't this isn't cheap. We're talking thousands of pounds to for each test for each product. And how far how far do we take that? So yeah, for me very interesting that I think ⁓ one of the proposals we we put back in in our response was that we need to look at all of those options from you know from the factory production control right through to some companies would be more than happy just to send it every every five years, not to have to have to go through that. So I I've been both sides of that fence in in various industries before. So I hope Defra, you know, take our advice on board there. Moving on to what is probably for me The one thing that has everybody's been talking about in this DEFRA consultation. I mean the the change to go from five grams an hour to one gram an hour is pretty big. But the one thing people keep talking to me about is labelling for appliances and fuels. ⁓ it just seems to have ⁓ for some people, they like it and some people this is just the worst bit of the whole thing. They are absolutely against it. Exactly. So they're looking at sort of similar A to A to G, A to C rating system like you see on fridges in the refrigeration industry. ⁓ and essentially just like you say, just trying to provide a bit more information to the consumer. But I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to things like this because in the solid fuel industry, you may not even get to the point of sale element before you've chosen your stove. So, like I talked about earlier, there is a lot of brand loyalty out there. ⁓ consumers do speak to their installers, their retailers, their, you know, their servicing engineers. to get a better understanding of what they feel are the better, more efficient, best available technology products that exist. ⁓ so it could become a time when you don't even see the label. You you know, you could have your stove installed tomorrow and you and you'll only see it during the commissioning and handover phase. By then that information on there is is is too late, you know, that they they wouldn't have even referenced it, wouldn't have even known it was there. It would have been round the you know, these manufacturers have these sort of very nice looking stoves in the showrooms and they don't really want to Want to spoil it with ⁓ you know, with even more labels with even more information. So sometimes they hide it around the back. And again, yeah, it it's it's not easily referenceable. So I think labels do have a do have a place. ⁓ do I think they have a place within our industry? It'd be interesting to f find out what the responses to the consultation were on this matter because obviously it doesn't just impact HETAS as a certification body, but a wide range of stakeholders need to put portray right set of information. they need to be legible. They need to be in the places where our consumer base are likely to see them. So I'm glad I'm glad you said that, because my next question was right on that note, which is ⁓ I mean they they may the labels may go ahead, defram may absolutely do that. ⁓ what what do you think would actually achieve ⁓ more? If you had it, you know, if if labelling was X amount of money and it was gonna cost the industry X amount of ⁓ it would definitely be the educational piece. So again, it would be around things like local authorities, ⁓ stakeholders, certification bodies, having an aligned set of guidelines, ⁓ information, because a lot of what we do is around internet sales. So again, we're talking about labeling that goes physically on the product, but people utilize the internet nowadays. You know, internet sales are, you know, are massive now. So it's about making sure that websites, manufacture websites, certification body websites portray the right pieces of information in the right way. So I'd certainly like to see the funding go down that route. Campaigns are always a good one. ⁓ internet campaigns, TV campaigns, all those sorts of elements as well. But with the right messaging. So again, not just the whole don't do this, don't do that. It it needs to it needs to be portrayed in the white ray. What are the things that we should be doing? What how can we operate these appliances in the right way? So it's less about what don't not to do and more about what we can do. So Again, not slumbering the appliance. That's a massive one that we hear on the consumer and the and the technical helplines. People still slumber their appliances, you know, which means that they ⁓ they essentially just turn them down at night before they go to bed, ⁓ when they should be switching them off completely. And again, operating them correctly, utilizing the doors in the right way, utilizing air controls, all those sorts of educational things can have a massive effect on our air quality and and reduce our air quality impacts. Like I said earlier, it is a it's a massive behavioral shift. ⁓ people know how their dads and their dads' dads used to operate their appliances and and they continue to do the same things. Appliance technologies have come on massively and it it we're now in a a a very different era in terms of how appliance technologies work. So it's about making sure that everyone is aware of the best way that they can operate their appliances, the best fuels that they can use, the best available technologies. Because if you use the right fuel on the right appliance and operate it connectively, your air quality impacts is is minimal if that Yeah. It's a as I'm glad you mentioned technology because A lot of people will think technology and stoves and and burning wood or or burning coal, how can there be technology? I've been on maybe in the last three weeks the biggest learning journey about stoves since I've since I started, ⁓ and the technology that goes into a lot of the modern stoves. I mean nowadays they're connecting via Wi Fi to your house. They're ⁓ we're recovering a lot of the energy like ⁓ a KERS system in a car, a kinetic energy recovery system. So ⁓ with with companies like Rico Heat are able to retain and reuse some of that heat and actually send it around ⁓ around your house. We've we're having valves that open and close automatically depending on the heat to get optimum burning and therefore substantially less ⁓ emissions it on ⁓ you know compared to just as you say letting it slumber. The the actual technology, the the physical moving parts, I've been absolutely fascinated that those two worlds of Yeah, like two there's two sides to this story. So there's the technology's actually in the stoves themselves. So, like you say, Barry, automatic air controls are a big thing now where the appliance runs itself based on its program. Thermostatic air controls, depending on the temperature of of the room that the stove is installed in, it can start to turn up, turn down. ⁓ the the heat demand for that and and in and really improve your energy efficiency. But also in the systems as well. So you can link a stove up to a thermal store, you can run it, it can heat your hot water. And you can improve your energy efficiencies in that way as well. You can link up systems can link to a whole host of technologies like heat pumps, solar, ⁓ and just top it up in the winter when ⁓ you know, when when heat pumps and and other technologies aren't as prevalent as solid fuel, you know, technologies. So there there's multitude of ways that you can do it and and and and stoves have a ⁓ a massive role to play in not only currently but in the ⁓ in the future of our industry in in in in maintaining our energy efficiencies of our homes. Yeah. A a I come from the new build world and I've been absolutely fascinated to see what I've been referring to externally as as the Danish model, but in Denmark it's really common to have a heat pump on your house and a wood burning stove. And having the combination of the two allows you to have a a smaller heat pump that's more efficient during the majority of the year, but then your wood burning stove kicks in in the winter and is able to to top up the heat and make sure that your your house gets to ⁓ that nice temperature. I've had really good conversations with different ⁓ crown dependencies in the UK and the British Isles talking about how solid fuel is still incredibly important, particularly to those that are very much off grid and they they rely on it when the grid isn't as reliable as it could be. So having the mixture of those two things I find absolutely fascinating that ⁓ my world, my old world of super high end solar panels and airtightness and passive house actually solid fuel burning is such a big part of of modern construction ⁓ and you know looking after looking after our fuel. I agree. It's important that we learn from other member states. So every Member State does things differently. It's about how we can learn by what others do well and implement it into our policies and procedures so that we can ⁓ we can do the same. Great. Last section on the consultation was about enforcement and penalties. So Defra discussed stronger penalties for non compliant fuel sales. ⁓ how do you see in enforcement playing out and what would actually shift behaviour? So it's actually cheaper to be fine than it is to join the scheme. So I tend to agree with the consultation that they're looking at increasing the f fine limits. I think that will go some way into ⁓ in into helping things. But yeah, the other thing I think is just about educating and upskilling environmental health officers, let them understand exactly what they're looking for when they go out and look at cases. ⁓ there's a lot that we do. We we run sessions with local authorities to to sort of educate them on different types of fuels, different types of appliances, technologies, so that they've got a whole host answer to any queries that are likely to arise during the ⁓ during the assessment process. So there's a number of things that we can do to improve. Yeah. I I I don't think the consultation is as strong as it could be on the enforcement front when we look at sort of previous data on things like Ready to Burn. I think it was around eighty five percent of our suppliers ⁓ find sort of knowledge gaps, ⁓ compliance gaps in terms of the ⁓ the audit and structure for for stuff that we do have current surveillance on. So yeah, there's still more that we can do. ⁓ but yeah, it's about upskilling, providing education, providing higher fines and then putting that into practice and seeing, ⁓ you know, analyzing the data to see ⁓ see if things improve. That's awesome. I yeah, I agree. I think ⁓ For now that wraps up the the DEFRA consultation side. I know that Heatas will be putting out ⁓ potentially by the time the podcaster is released it, some of our response ⁓ and a summary of our response will be already out into the ⁓ into the open worlds. So not quite sure when that's gonna land, but I I fully suspect we'll we'll start drip feeding that out soon so you can see our thoughts on on the whole consultation. Charlie will vouch that the whole consultation was incredibly long. ⁓ So we're not gonna we're not gonna publish the whole thing, but we'll we'll ⁓ summarise it for you to make it a little a little easier reading, get that out in due course. Am I correct? Out now. Twenty five thousand words, condensed down to three not quite as long articles. ⁓ okay. So yeah, already out. That's awesome. So already out and you'll be able to see that obviously on heatast.co.uk. Calvin, before I let you go, I've got two questions for you, not linked to the consultation, but just out of interest. Because we're gonna have a bunch of people, ⁓ you know, different stakeholders listening today. First question what are the top three things they can do immediately to help reduce emissions from solid fuel? Speak to the consumer, ask them loads of questions, get loads of feedback. ⁓ because when you go on site and you see something, it can be completely different to what the ⁓ what the consumer's doing. Find out what fuel they're using and if they're not go have a look at their logs. Biggest one for me is probably educate consumers. So Service engineers, heat us, chimney sweeps, into heat us service engineers. When you're going out and servicing jobs, speak to the consumer, ask them loads of questions, get loads of feedback. ⁓ because when you go on site and you see something, it can be completely different to what the ⁓ what the consumer's doing. Find out what fuel they're using. And if they're not, go have a look at their log store, educate them on things like seasoning practices, ⁓ where to store fuels, ⁓ how to de-ash. All those sorts of things really would ⁓ would would go a long way. It's all around education. So we run a consumer helpline and we get a whole host of calls from consumers asking these same sorts of questions. So the more that our sort of registrants can go out there and and and educate people, it's only gonna help things. And again, it's about making sure that you use the brand, ⁓ make sure that ⁓ you know that ⁓ you you you know, you display your heatas heat us credentials proudly because We we take a a whole host of the notifications that come through our systems and things. People do like it. People want to use competent engineers, those that are trained, those that come under a competitor person schemes such as ours. So yeah, don't be afraid to use your branding to ⁓ to to to push those clean air, high fuel, high quality, wood-based fuels credentials. I think that about wraps up our time together, Calvin. So thank you so much for ⁓ for joining me today and taking time out of your busy day to to talk about the consultation with us. I'll ⁓ I'll let you get back to your busy day. Well that just about wraps it up for me. Thank you everyone for listening to the ⁓ we're yet to be named at the time of recording. We do need your suggestions to pop those down in the comments. ⁓ thank you so much for for listening. Those of you that made it all the way to the to the very end, you can like and subscribe. You'll be able to download this on all of your platforms. If you're listening and you're not watching, go over to YouTube and you can ⁓ you can watch us next time. Make sure you subscribe over there. And if you're watching us on YouTube, go also subscribe on all of the other platforms. So I can show how much of a roaring success this is ⁓ this has been to our friends in the ⁓ studio. So thanks thanks to Charlie and ⁓ and producer Alan on the ones and twos in the room with me. And thanks to Calvin again for for coming out and taking time out of his busy day to to come and speak to us. We'll see you again very soon on episode two in about a couple of weeks' time. Thank you.