Adam Braus: Hi, I'm Adam Braus Scot Maupin: I'm Scot Maupin. Adam Braus: And this is Solutions from the Multiverse, where we bring you a new, unheard of solution to the world's problems every single episode. Scot Maupin: That's right. Other podcasts go on and on about the problems, but we focus on the solution. So what new solution do you have up your sleeve for us today, Adam? Adam Braus: Well, today I thought we would have a solution about the politics. We just went through an election. We're recording before the election, and you're listening Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: to it after. So you live in a hellscape, a purge-like hellscape of of post democratic or you t or boom, done. Yay! So whichever world Scot Maupin: or a utopia, what if we fixed it all in one election? We did it, yay, congrats everyone. World's better now. Adam Braus: you're living in, stay tuned in because there's a important message here, important solution. So basically the solution is to fascism. I'm gonna tell you the solution to fascism. Not really. I mean think there's a lot of solutions. No, no, no. It's not like the solution, let's go to fascism. No, it's it's Scot Maupin: Okay, the solution isn't too fascism. We don't need too fa- Okay. Adam Braus: how to like like what is fat like why do we not want fascism and even the solution, I think, in general to like political ideologies in general. I think people are like, well they're a socialist, they're a small D Democrat, they're a small R Republican, they want Representative, they're a dictatorship, they're fascist, they're this. people are throwing these terms around. And the question is well, what do we really want? And I think people are like, well, people want different things. Some people want that and some people want that. But actually, I'll tell people today what we actually want. what actually is Scot Maupin: You'll tell us what we want. Tell us what we want. Adam Braus: I'll tell you what you want. I'll tell you what you want, what you really, really, what you really Scot Maupin: Tell me what you want, what I really, really, really want. Adam Braus: want. You want you want Scot Maupin: It's a ziggy zig, huh? Is it a ziggy Adam Braus: it's a ziggy ziggy zig. Scot Maupin: You what I really really want is a sicka sicka Adam Braus: It's like, huh, that's what we all want. that's when it comes down to it. No, I I'm not trying to say what people's values should be. I'm gonna just give you a new concept or maybe a concept people have not heard that will help people kind of come to hopefully a greater consensus around what actually a good what we actually all want, even if we all have different ideologies politically, what we all want is one thing, which is heterarchy. Scot Maupin: Heterarchy. Heterarchy? Adam Braus: I know it's a new heterarchy, like headarchy. Scot Maupin: Yeah, I don't hear the masses shouting, chanting, Hedderarchy. They're like, what's the word again? We want to chant, but we don't know the word. Hedderarchy? That doesn't even sound like a word. What is it? What is it? Adam Braus: Give us heterarchy. Give us heterarchy. Yeah, heterarchy. Hierarchy. Yeah. I know heterarchy. So it just means lots of different powers competing together in society. That's what it means. So Scot Maupin: We want lots of different powers competing together in society as a function. Okay. Adam Braus: Yeah, that's what you want. That that's just a better society for everyone. I mean, except for maybe the one group that takes over society, right? So so in the absence of heterarchy, some group takes over. In a democracy, it's the masses of people, right? And they'll and Scot Maupin: Okay. Adam Braus: the aristocrats and the wealthy and the very powerful single individuals are all kind of, you know, their power is destroyed by the people. In a republic, it in a in a a representative, purely representative Scot Maupin: States. Adam Braus: democracy, then it's like the deep state and the rep and the elected representatives are just in control of everything and the people aren't really listened to, and maybe they even run roughshod over the wealthy and they run roughshod over, you know, everybody. in a in an in a in a dictatorship, one guy, you know, the biggest noodle in the soup, yeah, Scot Maupin: top, the top down. Yeah. Adam Braus: he has his power runs roughshod over everybody else's. Right. Okay. So a heterarchy in a plutocracy, the wealthy's power runs roughshod over everybody else's, right? So all of these people all kind of grab a corner and they're like, I want this. Okay. But the reality is what we all want is heterarchy. We all want all of those to be in a dynamic interplay, competing and cooperating and collaborating and building, you know, alliances and having arguments and fighting. That's actually Scot Maupin: Right, right. Adam Braus: what we want. So when people say like, fascism is bad. Democracy is good. I think when people say democracy, most of the time they mean heterarchy. That's actually what they mean. Scot Maupin: Mm. Adam Braus: They mean well, we should have elections, but the people should be able to have free speech and protest and we should have representatives, but then the wealthy shouldn't be like eliminated. we shouldn't tax all their money away. They should be there and they should represent themselves and, own newspapers and stuff. they they want yeah. Scot Maupin: If people who are interested in business matters should consult with the business matters people. Adam Braus: Right. And a all the powers and very great men and women who are great leaders with lots of power. We should like have them in positions of power. But but but maybe positions that kind of rotate or like, you know, can only be president for two terms or whatever. Like, you know, there's ways for these really, really great people to like be in a position of power. They can be the CEO, they can be the chairman of the board, they can be the president, they can be a senator, you know, and they can kind of have this, you know, they can be a general, right? They can be, you know. So it's like a heterarchy is where we have lots of different forms of power all interacting and in tension with each other. There I solved it. Done. Society Scot Maupin: So is Adam Braus: over. Scot Maupin: it like, is the idea survival of the fittest where they'll kneecap each other to all the bad ideas will kind of get churned out and only the really good pure stuff that's gonna make it through will make it through? why does the heterarchy help us? Adam Braus: I hope, I hope. I think the main way that it helps us is it's like I think it's what people mean when they say democracy a lot of the time. Cause they don't mean a democracy. they don't mean the people all all laws are referendums to the people. That's not what they mean. And they also don't mean the Congress controls everything. that would be like the Chinese party, like the China, where it's just like a one party, the the the the central, party controls everything. That's essentially like Congress controlling everything. And the speaker of the House is like the the dictator of the country. that's no one says that. When they say democracy, they mean three branches of government and a free society where people can have like, you know, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of property. And that means that there's all these different powers all Scot Maupin: Right, we understand as. Adam Braus: competing. So when people say democracy, I think what they actually mean is heterarchy. And so I think it's better for people to just say heterarchy is what I want. because if you say democracy, it's it's a confusing term. wh what do you mean? Scot Maupin: Yeah, was like, so explain to me what is what would democracy like if someone was saying democracy? Why would we not want democracy? What's the? Yeah. Adam Braus: A pure democracy means all laws are made by referendum to the people. That would nobody believes that. Scot Maupin: So if all of a sudden it becomes popular, if everybody believes that it's popular to do something crazy, then it becomes right. Adam Braus: Yeah. So in California we have these propositions on the ballots. That's pure democracy, because it's like what do the people want? And then that just literally becomes law. That's cool. and that's and that's why I think it's cool because I believe in heterarchy, which I think what everyone should believe in and and does almost kind of believe in already. It's good to have like the people have some direct power through ballot initiatives. But you wouldn't want all the laws to have to be passed by ballot initiatives. That's crazy, right? Much less oversight. how would a pure democracy have oversight over a military? It's you know, you'd have to like elect somebody. And as soon as you elect somebody, you're moving into what's called republicanism or or representative. Scot Maupin: You're abstracting the. Adam Braus: Yeah. And now the people's power is sort of blunted by the power of that, you know, either elected official or deep state, you know, the the generals, the, you know, the c the colonels, the people, you know, as soon as they're appointed, boom. Now the people don't have power over that. position anymore. And so you you immediately Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: are losing democratic power if you actually try to make a real democracy. Scot Maupin: So what you're saying is a true democracy is literally every single granular thing that anyone Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: does in government would have to be voted on by every single person every time. And it would have to be like there would be no Adam Braus: Back to the people right, right, right. Scot Maupin: abstract. And so we do we do a little bit of like we vote for a representative and we say we trust you to go do stuff. But that does abstract our democracy a little bit. Adam Braus: Right. And you could say, well, okay, well, as long as there's constantly elections, like Congress, every two years, the whole Congress gets reelected. That's very close to a democracy because it's like very close to the power of the people. You could say, Okay, well, that's still a democracy. Scot Maupin: The refresh rate is. Adam Braus: Okay, that's fine. Yeah, but not the set not the Senate. The Senate is six years and it's every two years only a third of it turns over. So it very slowly can go along with trends and things. i those people who are Scot Maupin: Slow refresh rate. Adam Braus: in there, they can really decide what to do. for t four years when they're not up for re-election, they can just do whatever's actually right, and they don't have to be like tied to like what the people think. when people say like when T Winston Churchill says, democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others, you know, ha ha ha ha ha ha. Scot Maupin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam Braus: What he really means is heterarchy is the worst form of government except for all the others. That's what he means. He doesn't mean that all the that a real democracy where everything's gonna be elected and voted on constantly. Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: he means there's elections, but there's also courts and the military and a and an administrative state and corp corporations and it's not there's a it's a heterarchy. Scot Maupin: So is there a bit of benefit benefit from the strife of having to get through all those contentious different factions that are worrying with worry with each other or whatever? Adam Braus: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's the reason why it is better is because first of all, everybody gets to play, right? Nobody's totally pushed out, except for I don't Scot Maupin: shut out. Adam Braus: know, violent crazy people blowing things up or something. You if they're violating the law. But everyone who's like willing to play by the rules is is welcome to play along and express their power in all kinds of different ways. Like find new ways to express power. Like tech. Tech was like nerds. You know, twenty five years ago, tech was just like Weirdo loser nerds. And now tech is like in control of most of society is like dominated by technology and by the CEOs Scot Maupin: Right. Right. Adam Braus: of those companies and the investors of those companies like control so much of the world and want to control more and more and more. So I mean, in a heterarchy, you can like explore and find new ways to find power and express it. And that's interesting. And and that's not necessarily bad for society because, like you said, it's in it, it's in attention and kind of. It's warring against all the others. Not not warring like they're trying to kill each other, but Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: it's almost like they're just in tension with the other. So as you pull, then two other other opponents pull back and it balances you and everything stays in a balance of power, a dynamic balance. Yeah, checks and balances. Right. Scot Maupin: Sort of a checks and balances. mean, because you're describing like what goes wrong in government, what some people think goes right in government. But it's like when all the branches are in one department, it's like, all right, now there are no checks on this and we just ram through so much stuff. And some people are cheering, but like a lot of people are like, hey, that's not how it's designed. It's designed to maybe be a little bit more circuitous than this. It's not just, yeah. Adam Braus: Checky and Bayancy. Scot Maupin: Right, exactly. To keep bad Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: things from happening fast, It also keeps some good things from Adam Braus: Well there's other che hopefully Scot Maupin: happening fast, but the idea is it lets good things get like sift through the filter or whatever. Adam Braus: Yeah, I think you're right. It's because if everything's in a dynamic tension, it prevents the worst excesses from happening. it might prevent total utopia happening tomorrow, but that's also less likely than blood in the streets tomorrow. the worst case scenario is a more likely chance than the best case scenario. So to guard against the worst case scenario is a good choice, even if it slows down getting to a best whatever best case scenario you can imagine. Scot Maupin: Sure. Yeah. Adam Braus: But I guess I guess that's that's why it's a new s I'm trying to say this is a new solution because it's a more precise language. It's not a hard word to say, heterarchy. Just and it is what it is. It's like a oligarchy democracy, heterosexual, heter heterarchy. Scot Maupin: How do I spell this? Heterarchy. Is it like it? okay. Adam Braus: Yeah. Archie just means ruler. arkay is a ruler. And like a boss. And so Scot Maupin: Heterarchy, okay, all right. Adam Braus: heterarchy means many bosses, like different. lots of different ru rulers, ro lots of different powers essentially. so it's it's like democracy, power of the people. fascism is the unification Scot Maupin: So would we, would we... Adam Braus: of of all the powers into one, you know, one unified thing. yeah. Scot Maupin: Is the idea that we would like openly acknowledge it? Because I do agree that this is sort of what's happening when we say democracy is happening, heterarchy is really what's kind of going on behind the scenes. So do we come out and be like the top guy says, hey, right now Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: it's heterarchy. We want it to be democracy. Adam Braus: Yeah, I'm pro heterarchy. Scot Maupin: There are some very powerful tech people or money influences coming in. And you as the people who I'm talking to should want to counteract that. rise up and organize and counterbalance Adam Braus: Yeah. Yeah. Scot Maupin: the interest of big money because it is definitely a thing and it's really here. Adam Braus: That's right. That's right. The people, the people, the labor, labor in the economy, the people in politics are being way, way, way outweighed by people who discovered interesting, fascinating ways to wield power in our society. New arc have emerged. and arcave of the past who've been, you know, presided over us for generations are still there. like I don't know, banks, fossil fuel companies have been around. banks Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: have been around for two hundred years in their modern avatar. Fossil fuel companies for a hundred years have lorded it over us. And now these tech companies are figuring out ways to lord over us. So yeah, we need to like fight back. The media's been, you know, gutted and which used to be another power center of society, and it's been sort of co-opted Scot Maupin: Right, the fourth pillar or whatever. Adam Braus: over, I think a lot of it over to an olig like an oligarchy. This is the danger of oligarchy. So when people say no, it's oligarchy. We don't like that. What they mean is, no, the wealthy, powerful people, you know, media and commute commercial wealthy corporate people are all aligned Scot Maupin: Mm-hmm. Adam Braus: and they are dominating that dynamic interplay of heterarchy and taking over the whole, taking the whole cake, you know. Yeah. Scot Maupin: Yeah, the idea that the rich people will all battle each other because they're like, we're rich people and we'll keep each other in check. And then it turns out they're all like, hey, actually we're all rich people. We like being rich and we give Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: each other tips and tricks on how to stay and get more rich. And it doesn't Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: work so checks and balance as much as sort of like us versus them. It's not working out that way. Adam Braus: Right. They we get this we get this sorting in society where the wealthy sort themselves into Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: this wealthy class and they look at each other and their their kids all go to school together at the same elite you know, five elite schools and they all went to those elite schools too, and you know, they all look at each other and they're all like, we all have exactly the same like lives and goals. So let's like not step on each other's toes and just like have us get all the money and take it all from the you know, the the the the poor's, who w who have to work for us. Scot Maupin: Yeah, let's just go push for deregulation and I'll trust that you grab as much money as you can and you trust that I grab as much money as I can and we will high five afterward later. Adam Braus: Right. Or regulation only when it captures part of the market for our companies. Like, it's regulation, but then that just means no competition between any of us anymore. Cause we just stop competing because the regulation Scot Maupin: Yeah, so all the small, no more small fish. We don't like that. Adam Braus: right. No small fish. And we're not even allowed to really compete with each other, except for in like a very performative, agreed upon way. Like we'll all release a smartwatch at the same time for virtually the same price. Like that's not competition. That's just like all the tech people like being like, Scot Maupin: It's just variety, collusion. Adam Braus: They're like, hey, we're gonna it's good for us to all do this, right? Yeah, though these dummies will pay two hundred and fifty bucks for something we can get from China for thirty-five. let's do this, Scot Maupin: If we bring heterarchy as the forefront to American, that's gonna be a, that's gonna be, cause we've made a lot of our marketing decisions and branding based on democracy. Like that's, we've put a lot Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: of our weight behind that. We're gonna have to switch this over to heterarchy. Adam Braus: It will end it'll also end a lot of really stupid conversations that you see again and again and I see again and again and again and again. Which is people are like, Scot Maupin: to republic. Adam Braus: it's not really a democracy. Yeah. It's not it's not really Scot Maupin: I've heard this. Adam Braus: a democracy. Do you know that? Did you know that it's not really a democracy? Did you know that? 'Cause it's not it's not it's a it's a republic or like it's a Christian country. Well my lips are turning totally white. That's weird. Just by tightening my muscles. Scot Maupin: It's not necessarily a good look for you. I don't know that that's your blue steel Adam Braus: She was like Scot Maupin: for Zuland. Adam Braus: Right, got to do the blue steel. but yeah, I think it's nice to just have precise language to be like heterarchy is good. And then you can actually build a big tent and like a lot of consensus around that. You know, like the wealthy even Scot Maupin: Okay. Well... Adam Braus: can be like, Yeah, it is about heterarchy because in their deep, you know, they're like deeply in their souls, they're like super selfish and like obsessed with their own egos. So because they're the wealthy. So they're Scot Maupin: Of course, aren't we all? Adam Braus: like. So, in their deep soul, they're like, if I could get one over on my other guy, I would. I want that option to be like open to me, competition for fair play, so when you say, we're gonna make a heterarchy, the tradition of America was heterarchy and we're gonna continue that. And the tradition of the Enlightenment, I mean, the whole idea of three branches of government was to say the people, the aristocrats, and the elite, right? I mean, the people, the aristocrats, and the the king. Scot Maupin: Everybody gets a voice, but nobody's is too loud. Yeah. Adam Braus: Yeah, the president or the prime minister is like a king. The Senate and the and the Supreme Court are like aristocrats. And the the the representative, Congress lower and upper houses or the lower house is like the people. And so there's already heterarchy built directly into our constitution. When I say heterarchy, even larger. the me things that happen outside of politics too. The media, the people as people, the people as workers, the people as, unions, whatever you can think of that wields power. Scot Maupin: So let's say this is accepted. How do you build the best heterarchy? What is the best combination? You know what mean? Like what do you strengthen or what do you limit? Adam Braus: Well, I think I think you said it. You said it already. You identify where there's an imbalance and you try to lower down the part that's getting too powerful and raise up the part that's lost a lot of its power to try to keep everything in a sort of dynamic balance. Cause the danger is the whole table flips over. Like one thing it's so str so powerful that it just flips the table and then then they're just in charge. It becomes a kind of autocracy, whether it's a a junta, Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: or an oligarchy or a a dictator. That's the end of heterarchy, which is really what what most people would understand as meaning the end of democracy. You know, this is like what the left, when they're scared of like Trump or like oligarchy or like fascism, what that's what they mean. They mean we're gonna lose heterarchy and we're gonna get, Scot Maupin: Mm-hmm. Adam Braus: you know, ninety percent of people are just gonna be screwed. You know, ninety five, ninety, ninety nine percent of people are just gonna have zero power. even less than they already do. Scot Maupin: off balance, then the thing that it's going to favor is going to benefit and then everything else is going to pay for that benefit, like to offset the gains that they're. Adam Braus: Wait, tax breaks for the wealthy and subsidies for them? interesting. Like what? What's happening here? What wait, we're gonna Scot Maupin: But it's fun math, that's how... Adam Braus: subsidize AI data centers and Amazon and Google have paid zero taxes for a decade? Huh that's weird. That's weird. So wait, we Scot Maupin: Adam, what's freer than free? We haven't even gotten to the new levels of free yet. Adam Braus: all as working stiffs pay taxes and it all goes to these super wealthy people? Like what is going on? Scot Maupin: Uh-huh. Adam Braus: We're already you can already Scot Maupin: Uh-huh. Adam Braus: see oligarchy, you could plutocracy, right? The the powerful, the tech aligned with some other, you know, forces have sort of vacuumed up all the power into this one new, relative, very new power center. Like I said, this wasn't a power center twenty-five years ago. so what you have to do if you're a heterarchist, you know, if really believe in freedom, which heterarchy yields freedom, like without heterarchy, You're not gonna have a free society. that's what heterarchy really Scot Maupin: Okay. Adam Braus: is, is a free society. When you say I live in a free country, what you mean is there's an interplay of dynamic power forces and people can find and discover new ways of it of affecting power and having power in society. That's what a free society is. And so Scot Maupin: Right. Yeah. Adam Braus: if you lose heterarchy, you lose freedom. And that's bad. We shouldn't do that. We should preserve heterarchy. Scot Maupin: What if doesn't, doesn't it like, so democracy, the risk is that this, the people you don't like would win in the voting game or whatever. But in a hierarchy, I guess you run the risk of like a system you don't like winning for a time. And so like maybe Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: fascism or something, dictatorship wins out for a moment. And now everyone's crushed for a time until they flip it back to balance it and level it back out. How do we? Adam Braus: Well, that's the loss of heterarchy. So if if you get Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: a dictator, you've lost heterarchy. You've lost freedom. Scot Maupin: But is Heterarchy just nobody win- like everybody's competing but nobody's ever winning? Adam Braus: Everybody's compromising. Yeah, everybody's compromising. Everybody's winning some edge of control and power, but no one's like flipping the table and being like everyone's everyone's playing the game. Scot Maupin: But I feel like the reason people compete in a game, the reason people compete is because they have the chance of winning. And in a power game, I guess, for the power of the world, people would compete for the chance of gaining power and having the power to do what they want. But if you're telling Adam Braus: Sure. Yeah. Scot Maupin: them we're competing in this game, but the goal of the game is that we're never going to give the power away. We're never going to give the trophy to anybody to be able to do the. the infinity gauntlet snap or whatever. You're just all gonna Adam Braus: Right, right. Yeah. Scot Maupin: compete with each other for it forever. Yeah, yeah. Adam Braus: Yeah. Game of Thrones style forever. Yeah, so the selfish jerks who are super powerful who are trying to play the game to actually win it are evil. Like that's evil. That's not good. They're actively trying to make a bad society. So what I'm talking about in terms of preserving hierarchy is people who probably have zero chance of ever really having a ton of power, the people usually are probably the best guardians of this. but also some highly placed, powerful people who prefer to have society be free, like they prefer for their children and grandchildren and, you know, they just prefer freedom and they think freedom's better. There's also this argument that if you do flip the table and take all the power, in some ways, even the people who gain the power, they actually lose a lot of their freedom. Because they now have to live this Scot Maupin: Why, how so? Adam Braus: well imagine you have a functioning democracy and then you like Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: and then you're part of a military junta that ends the functioning democracy, the the heterarchy, and just and Scot Maupin: Okay. Adam Braus: you create a military junta. Well, guess what? there's constant kidnapping assassination attempts against you and your children. you have to live in compounds surrounded by security forces. You have to constantly kill and suppress your population, which is your people. You're probably Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: a member of that country. It doesn't feel good to shoot live rounds into like crowds of your own countrymen. You know, like it's not good for even Scot Maupin: When you try to mold the thing to your will, then anyone Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: who doesn't want to get molded to your will instantly becomes your enemy. like you have a bunch of, yeah, okay, okay. Adam Braus: Exactly. Suppressed. Right. And and so I think it's not good for anyone really. But to answer your question, yeah, the most powerful selfish jerks are n they're gonna wanna keep and demagogues, who are stoking up the demos, the people, they all wanna yeah, they wanna win the game. they're playing to win. They're trying to get the brass ring, the infinity gauntlet. But what we all what the majority of us, if we s if we're smart, what we wanna do is curb all of those people. We want to curb all of them and in and and invite them in to play a game that is actually beneficial, that all of them will get something. All of them will get some position of power and respect and status, Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: but they no but no one will get the whole thing. No one gets the whole cake. No one gets to flip the table and take all the power, whether it's through aligning all the wealthy and powerful into fascism or, you know using the military or some other means to seize production or seize, the control of the levers of the government or dissolve the parliament and have the, president become a a king or whatever. all of those options we want off the table. you know, because heterarchy is the goal, keeping a dynamic interplay of of forces. Scot Maupin: Well, and we have countless examples telling us, warning us to be like, the people who go, hey, hey, give me the power, give me the power, like I crave the power, I need the power. Those are the people Adam Braus: yeah, those guys are great. Scot Maupin: you wanna keep away from. Like, you know, Adam Braus: Ha ha ha. Scot Maupin: ironically, it's the people who are like, I would never, it's too much power, the responsibility is so heavy. Adam Braus: Right. Scot Maupin: Like those are the people, that's the kind of mindset you want doing the job, but not the people who are like, yeah, I got this, give me that, I'll. Flippantly do whatever I want and it's awesome. I can't wait to have all the power. You're like, no, no, no, not you not you But so heterarchy keeps everyone bubbling but nobody gets Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: too powerful and nobody gets too unpowerful and Everyone still is hurt Adam Braus: Right. And this is the danger of this is like the danger of gerrymandering, right? Gerrymandering destroys the the dynamic interplay of the rise of powerful representatives of the demos up into the house and into the places, you know. so there is another idea. that that relates to this, I think it supports it by Peter Tershin. And he wrote a book where he proposed the concept of what's called elite overproduction. And he the idea is that societies become destabilized. What? Yeah, when there's too many elites. Scot Maupin: Making too many elites. Making too many elites. Adam Braus: Yeah. So basically his theory is that and it's an interesting and it's somewhat, you know, it's hypothesized and it's somewhat, you know, studied. It's possible that potentially Scot Maupin: I'm imagining a company that's like all managers and no workers. It's our university. Adam Braus: Yeah, exactly. All chieftains no Indians, right? all Scot Maupin: We're all deans. Do you have any instructors? No, Adam Braus: Right. All generals, Scot Maupin: no, no, we're all deans. Adam Braus: no privates, no people that just do stuff. And so what happens is, you have this if if Scot Maupin: It's our 100 % General Army. Adam Braus: you're if you're if your heterarchy is either the power's already been given away to one or two or an alignment of forces and they fascistically form together into a block and take all the power, then in all the rest of the society, powerful people and powerful organizations and powerful things keep bubbling up. They keep emerging. And there's no place for them. They're walled away from the actual levers of power in the society. And they get frustrated with that. They get unhappy. And they're not stupid. There's these are capable, powerful people who are interested in having power, having status, having their ambitions realized. Even if their ambition is to, you know, make the d make the climate better, you know, like like Greta Thunberg is a is a you know, she's not an elite. Scot Maupin: Still ambitious. Yeah? Adam Braus: But she's an ambitious person, which is great. I'm not saying these are bad, bad people, but they want to have do something. Scot Maupin: The idea that they have the ability to create actions outsizing their side, like Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: more than a one person's worth of effect. Adam Braus: Right. And it doesn't even have to be selfish. It can be Gandhi trying to free India. it's still just an ambition and it's a power and it's a rising power. And the danger, Peter Tushin says that societies historically, he just looked at a bunch of different societies when they collapsed, when they had re bloody revolutions and civil wars and stuff. He said it it was those are usually caused by stoked up by o elites who don't get into any kind of power. So you get these kind Scot Maupin: Okay. Adam Braus: of these kind of overproduction of elites. And so that that's I think an indication too of the heterarchy being destroyed already or necrotic. And those new elites come in and they can't build into and expand and develop new tensions and power centers inside that system. So instead they just hit this glass ceiling and pressure starts building up and those elites get mad. An example I think of this is Tucker Carlson. It's a perfect example of an elite overproduction. He's this he's this loser, guy, and just like an idiot. and then he gets he gets kicked out of mainstream media. Like he gets kicked out of like the inside party. And so then he spins off and he's not dumb and he's capable and he's ambitious. He and he can just launch a whole Scot Maupin: to rebuild Adam Braus: new Scot Maupin: a different thing. Adam Braus: media thing where he's totally unleashed and can just say anything every day. He doesn't even have producers and editors like trying to stop him from saying the most egregious stuff. Right. Scot Maupin: There are standards in practice. Right, right, right, right. Adam Braus: So, but in a society where there just weren't that many, bochu jerks who went to Ivy League schools, then there or where there were more positions four elites, then you don't have an elite overproduction. Right. So, you know Hierarchy in a way, if you have a dynamic heterarchy where new power sources can emerge, then there's enough space for all the elites and there isn't an overproduction of elites. And this is actually something Tertian doesn't talk about. He only talks about producing fewer elites and more elites. He doesn't talk about having more positions in society or fewer positions in society of power, It's like a demand side versus a supply side problem Scot Maupin: Okay. Adam Braus: with elites. Scot Maupin: So if I'm an American, if I'm, I'm in America, I'm like pro democracy. That's how I think I'm like, democracy is good. Anything that's not democracy. I'm not in favor of what's your elevator pitch for how to get me onto your side in like what are the basic bullet points that you would put to me to get me on Adam Braus: Yeah. Well, I'd say this. I'd say Scot Maupin: your side? Adam Braus: I'd say everybody thinks that, people on the right are more authoritarian and they're more comfortable with authority and they're more, and and left wing Scot Maupin: This is the impression, sure. Adam Braus: people are less more skeptical of authority and more interested in freedom and more interested in more atomic they're distrustful of things. I would just Scot Maupin: Okay, okay. Adam Braus: say actually both the left and the right are heterarchists. They both want a dynamic interplay of power. Neither of them wants like fascist, neither of them wants like a single power source. Or a bunch of powers to align and take over and take all the power and block all the rest of us out of power. So I'm saying Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: what we actually all fundamentally agree on is one thing, which is heterarchy. And it's not if you say democracy, like, we all believe in democracy and freedom, those are such loaded terms and one of the political parties is called Democrats. So you're already like Scot Maupin: Right. Adam Braus: you're already like using a word that's gonna make a bunch of people feel weird and have all these loaded ideas of what that means. A new term like heterarchy, I think is great. 'Cause it's like, yeah, well guess what we all agree on? Hierarchy. We should all there Scot Maupin: gets away from. Adam Braus: should be an interplay of forces. Yeah. Scot Maupin: Yeah. And it makes people stop and go, what's that? What is that? How is that different? You know, instead of Adam Braus: Yeah, sure. Sure. Scot Maupin: just going with their pre-programmed ideas of what they think the conversation is. Adam Braus: Right. And the and I and you might say regular people on the fr on the street aren't gonna maybe go around say heterarchy, heterarchy, or hierarchy. But my point the point of this and and sort of sharing this as a solution is so that educated people who are like political people can have a vocabulary to talk about things that's accurate and precise and it's an alternative to ideologies that are being pushed onto us right now, like for example, neo monarchism. neo monarchism. Scot Maupin: I can parse it out new, Adam Braus: You can parse it out, right. Scot Maupin: new Kings and stuff, but what, what is neo Mark? Wait, neo Marxism, Adam Braus: Neomonarchism. Scot Maupin: neo monarchism. Okay. New Kings and stuff. So Where is that playing out? Where Adam Braus: It's a very popular ideology right now that's emerging in America. So there's Scot Maupin: What? Adam Braus: a guy, there's a guy named Curtis Yarvin. Curtis Yarvin, who is an Scot Maupin: I already don't like. Adam Braus: overproduced elite. he's just like an elite without without a home in the power structure. So he started blogging. He started blogging Scot Maupin: We say unhoused now. We say unhoused. Adam Braus: his psycho ideas. He has no actual training in political philosophy. He's just kind of a a weirdo. But He has created this thing called the Dark Enlightenment, which he promotes that we should have a monarch, that we should, you know Scot Maupin: You're saying there are pockets of Americans who are like what we really need in America is like a monarch Adam Braus: Not not pockets, man. Mainstream. This guy is mainstream on the right wing. He mainstream. Scot Maupin: Well, it is wild how the cheering for like the advancement of executive power, they're like, the president should be the most powerful person who can do whatever they want and have no checks. And I'm like, don't, that's Adam Braus: Yeah, exactly. That's neo monarchism. That's from Cur Curtis Yarvin. Scot Maupin: crazy. Cause like, I understand right now the people who are cheering that like the person who's sitting in the seat. And, but I'm like, even if I liked the person who was sitting in seat, I wouldn't be cheering for that. Cause I'm like, I don't want that person to have unlimited power. That's not. That's antithetical to everything I think feels like how we're built in, but I'm a heterarchist, I guess. Adam Braus: Well, you're not a neo neo monarchist. But I'm but I'm saying there are you're you're that's right. That's right, you're heterchist. But I'm just saying if we don't create new ways to talk about freedom, then the opponents of freedom will come up with new ways to talk about destroying freedom. Yeah. Scot Maupin: be happening anyway. Sure. Adam Braus: So so I think it's smart to say if someone says, Well, I'm a neo monarchist, because Democracy doesn't work. That's what people say. That's what this side says. They say, democracy doesn't work. Why? Because the people are stupid. You can't have dem democracy. The elections get in the way of doing the right thing. You say, Well, I'm not a Democrat. I'm a heterarchist. I think there should be elections, but there should also be the interplay of powerful people who have a who just are doing arbitrary things on their own, like CEOs and stuff. And then and now the people might the people th your opponents might say, there's like there was that was an option? Like It was an option to have a diversity of powers all competing with each other. Yeah. And so I yeah. Yeah, Scot Maupin: I had not heard this before. Yeah, sure. Didn't know that was on the ballot. Adam Braus: it's just a new so there you go. Podcast about new solutions. Scot Maupin: Do you think we could call, we could get them to call themselves like a heterarchist? That's a little mouthful. Could you just say I'm hetero? You think we could take over the term I'm hetero now? Adam Braus: It is. You could yeah, we'll take that. Yeah, yeah. And you can say no homo, and that just means I'm not a fascist. I'd I Okay, okay. We'll just say I'm hetero. Scot Maupin: Does that, I don't know if we could, I don't know if it's gonna take over that part. I don't feel that, we could get over hetero. No one's using hetero anymore. Adam Braus: No one says that. No one 'cause it's not cool to be hetero. That's No demo, yeah, Scot Maupin: no demo, democracy, no democra... Adam Braus: I'm hetero, no demo. Not n also a also no mo Monko. No monarch, please. Scot Maupin: Yeah, I guess if you, well, cause I guess if you say no democracy, sounds like you're more of an anarchist. It is hard. It's a little nuanced. Adam Braus: Right. You're like a jerk. Scot Maupin: We need, this is why we need the term to be more widespread. We need understanding and adaptability. Adam Braus: I know, I know, I know. Cause if you say I'm pro democracy, you just sound like well, first of all, to the to all the Republicans, you just sound like a Democrat, 'cause you're saying even though it's a big D versus a small D, you still hear that, you know? So we need a different word besides that. And then really democracy, I mean if someone gets real nitpicky, they'll be like, Well, it's not democracy, you know. And they're right. They're right. It's not a democracy. It's a heterarchy. Scot Maupin: Yeah, right. Adam Braus: It's a mixture with democratic elements and aristocratic elements and Plutocratic elements and kleptocratic elements and all these all the different ways to express power. It's a mixture of all those. And that's what it should Scot Maupin: time to call it what it is. Yeah. Adam Braus: be. Society should be a big huge mishmash. Machiavelli had a term for it in Italian. Il tumulto. Il tumulto. Tumulto. We could be tumultuists. That's Machiavelli. Yeah. Scot Maupin: I say that all the time. I didn't know that was Machiavelli. I wake up in the morning, go, Il Timoto. No, it's Timoto. Adam Braus: Just right out right out your your window. Scot Maupin: I- it's like a- yeah, it's a flinch I do. I go, WELTAMUTO! Adam Braus: That's what Ma that's what Machiavelli called it, il tumulto. It means the tumult. He said society is a tumult, and that's that's what a heterarchist wants. And that's what Machiavelli wanted too. He wanted there to be this constant dynamic interplay of of the different Scot Maupin: Constant rolling. Adam Braus: powers kind of trying to get one over on each other in a nonviolent, you know, according to rules to keep the game going. So yeah. Scot Maupin: Yeah, a lighthearted scramble that sometimes people die away from. Adam Braus: Yeah, a skirmish. Yeah, well you play it you play the game very seriously, but you don't yeah, but you don't kill. But you play it deathly seriously, right? People play it incredibly seriously. but they hold back from breaking the law. And 'cause breaking the law is like the quickest way to end the hierarchy is for someone to just break all the laws and that's the game. That's the rules of the game. That's that's the table flip moment. Right. Scot Maupin: Right. Just out go. Right. And then they go, well, if you're going to break the law, everyone's gonna break the law and then chaos. Adam Braus: And one of the reasons that the Constitution is so freaking cool and why everyone should just love the Constitution, I think. the principles behind it, maybe even the document itself is not perfect, but especially the principles behind the constitution are so incredible because they enshrined heterarchy. They deliberately sat down and they were like, let's look at they were people, they had a certain power, they were all merchant aristocrats in this new world. They could have just said, Merchant aristocrats are in charge of everything, but they didn't. They said, well, we need to bring all the different powers in our society into a dynamic tension. Big states, small states, slave states, free states, you know, merchants and you know, the people, the aristocrats need to all be Scot Maupin: Yeah, right. Adam Braus: in competition with each other and we'll enshrine the rules of that game into this thing called the Constitution. And the Constitution is an inherently heterarchical document. That's what it is, if you were to put a name on it. Scot Maupin: So if you like the founding fathers, if you like the constitution, you're already a heterarchist. You're Adam Braus: You boom. Boom. Scot Maupin: already a fan. You just didn't know it yet. Now we got the term. You're hetero bro. thanks man. Thanks. Adam Braus: You're hetero. You're totally hetero, bro. Huh cool. Yeah, yeah. Scot Maupin: I'm down for it. Adam Braus: Thanks You're down. I'm I think we're all down. That's the whole point. We all get to get down. Scot Maupin: What is it, kill the patriarchy but it's now instill the heterarchy? How do we flip the, Adam Braus: Yes. give us heterarchy give us heter I don't know but I've been told as Scot Maupin: You could probably, now that you're saying it like that, it makes me think that Heterarchy would be a cool name for a band. And you could be in Adam Braus: yeah. Scot Maupin: you could be in the, you know, chanting, you're like, Heterarchy, And they come out, we are Heterarchy! And then they start going like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- Adam Braus: Yeah. there are anarchists, right? So why can't we be heterarchists? So anarchist just Scot Maupin: I like it, sounds good. Adam Braus: means no ruler, no ruler, heterarchist, mm multiple rulers, different competing rulers, powers. So instead of an Scot Maupin: Like a, what's that mini headed snake? Adam Braus: A, we should make the H symbol the heterarchy's symbol, but and instead of being like blood and like an A that's like burnt and and weird. It can be like an H that's like ordered, but you know, that'd be cool. We should make a heterarchist flag. Scot Maupin: We'll get right on it. Okay. This is phase two is our graffiti plan. Gonna tag everywhere with our new heterarchy symbol. Take over the anarchy. Adam Braus: That's right. We gotta That's right. That's right. And we can find like heterarchist heroes, you know, like Thomas Jefferson, you know, instead of like Che Guevara, you know, or like, you know Scot Maupin: and be like BAM! Headarchist! Adam Braus: Yeah, heterarchist, right. Scot Maupin: You didn't even know, he's a Hedarchist. Adam Braus: So if anybody wants to start the heterarchy, political party and Scot Maupin: Now's the time. Adam Braus: movement, it's a really yeah, it's a pretty wide open party 'cause anyone everyone's invited, so Scot Maupin: we're always advocating for more voices instead of just a plurality of when and dominate listening to a plurality of voices. This is always. Adam Braus: Right. Yeah, it literally is the reason why heterarchy is the structure of a free society is because it's the antithesis of a society of dominance. No one has dominated anyone else. Not completely. some people get one over on other people for a time. But, you know, and no one is completely dominated. And that's why it's a Scot Maupin: It evens out. Right. Adam Braus: free society. That's why that's the definition of a free society. So heterarchy, everybody. Let's do it. Let's do it. Scot Maupin: Sounds good. Well, I'm in favor of free society. Anything free, honestly. Maybe it's just psychological. I'm just now conditioned. If you just tell me something's free, I'm like, Adam Braus: My favorite free is pizza. Pizza. Scot Maupin: what's that? Adam Braus: free pizza free ice cream I feel like is usually not very good because it's like cheap ice cream. But free pizza, Scot Maupin: Yeah. Adam Braus: I've had free pizza. I'm like, this is pretty good pizza. Free. Boom. Scot Maupin: Where do you find free pizza? I wasn't going to call you on this, but where do you see someone offering you free pizza? That's a big one. Adam Braus: I got a lot more free food in college. I think when I have free food memories, they're always college or or high school. yeah. There was always free free Scot Maupin: You walking by where there's a board that has something taped on it says free now free pizza. Here you go. Adam Braus: something. Because it w they knew how that's how to get students to come to anything. So they always would have free pizza, free this, free that. Yeah. In I guess in San Francisco too, there's tons of dude, what do you mean Scot Maupin: Those were the days. Okay, so we need to go back to college. We just got to go to college and get free pizza. Adam Braus: free pizza? You go to almost any tech event in San Francisco, you get free pizza. Boom. Easy. Scot Maupin: Mmm I'm gonna try this out. I'll dress as a tech guy go Adam Braus: It's the everything pizza. If you like garbage pizza, I call it garbage pizza lovingly. garbage pizza. Scot Maupin: No. Adam Braus: My wife says don't call it that, but I like to call it that. It's just pizza with everything Scot Maupin: What is it? Adam Braus: on it. If you do an everything pizza, that's gar I call it garbage pizza because it looks like someone just took their garbage Scot Maupin: Isn't that supreme? Isn't that like? Adam Braus: and just went like that. It's a lot. So that's the heterarchy Scot Maupin: No, don't, the bread. Adam Braus: of pizzas. I know that's bad branding for pizza. But you know, Scot Maupin: Yeah Adam Braus: I like you know, I'm a dad now. I get to say goofy things like that. Yeah. Scot Maupin: Absolutely, absolutely. Adam Braus: Ha ha. Scot Maupin: not only expected, is required for you. Adam Braus: It is part of the job the job description. Scot Maupin: Well, I'm gonna go out and look for free pizza, but Adam Braus: Yeah. Scot Maupin: you've got me on the heterarchy tip now, so I'm excited. I'm a heterarchist. Yeah, I didn't even know. Now I know. Adam Braus: right. Awesome. We'll make T shirts. I know. Dude. We'll add it to the merch store. I want to make an S S S Fm merch store and we'll have a cool heterarchy t shirt. It'll be awesome. All right. Thanks, Scot. Scot Maupin: Let's Me, I'd be Yeah. Adam Braus: Thanks everybody for listening and enjoy. Please like, subscribe, tell your friends, enjoy us on YouTube. Everywhere you listen to podcasts, yeah, let's do this. The the episodes Scot Maupin: Make it bigger. Bigger party, bigger everybody. Love it. Adam Braus: are evergreen. So you can go listen to the first episode. It's totally fresh. It's like it'll give you a new solution that you never heard of every time. So well, not the second time you listen to it, then you'll have already heard it. But every episode, that's true. If you're doing a kind of memento kind of situation, yeah. Scot Maupin: Unless you have some sort of a weird amnesia, some sort of a weird memory, if you have a memento, if you have memento disease, yeah, of course. Then just please Adam Braus: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Scot Maupin: watch, if you have memento disease, please spend your life just watching our podcast episodes over and over again. That would really help us. Yes. Thank you very much. Adam Braus: Right. 'Cause that would give us yeah, would give us a lot of likes, a lot of ticks, yeah, a lot of views, impressions, right? Scot Maupin: love the algorithm loves that for us. And sorry about your disease. Bye. Adam Braus: That's right. All right, everyone. See you next week. Yeah. Bye. Alright, what am I gonna do? I guess we should do the political one. Scot Maupin: political? Do we be a bit, should we Adam Braus: Politico Okay shw it Scot Maupin: be a bit political? Adam Braus: I don't want a bit of pol politizing po Scot Maupin: What was it this morning? I was riffing on the way to school with my daughter. We were talking about, I invented a character named Ron DeVu who loved to just meet up with people at places. Hi, I'm Ron DeVu. I love to meet up with places. Adam Braus: I like that. I like that. Yeah. I'm Ron Scot Maupin: I'm Ron DeVue. Adam Braus: DeVoo. DeVu or DeVu, DeVu. Scot Maupin: Rendezvous, guess it is rendezvous, oops. Adam Braus: Rendezvous. Yeah, rendezvous. Scot Maupin: My French award will be rescinded forthwith. Do I have all my lights on? This light doesn't feel like it's, I have so many French awards. Most France. Adam Braus: You have a French award? What? Why do you get French awards? I don't get any French I don't get any awards. I've won Scot Maupin: I got the. Adam Braus: no awards in my whole life. Honestly. Like zero. No, zero. I never win anything. Scot Maupin: That can't be true. What about a soccer trophy or... Adam Braus: I mean, maybe I got one, you know, participation trophy in the 90s, you Scot Maupin: Did win a talent show? Adam Braus: know. I've never won a talent show. I've never won. The only thing I've ever won in my whole life was when I was like in like the fourth grade. There was a school-wide guessing competition for how much candy was in this huge bucket of candy. And I guessed Scot Maupin: Okay? Adam Braus: it right. And they announced it. They announced who guessed it right? Adam Braus. And I was like, eight eight. Isn't that a fourth grader? Nine. I stood up in the middle of the whole auditorium of students and just was like, and I tried to like go Scot Maupin: Greatest moment. Adam Braus: to get it. And they were like, we'll give it to you late. Like We'll give it to you later. you'll get it later. And it was just a bunch of gross hard candy and a few there were some fun sizes in there, but it was mostly gross hard candy. my god. Scot Maupin: But the feeling of guessing it right is going super saiyan in Dragon Ball Z. Adam Braus: It was exactly that, especially for a nine year old. I just so that's the only thing I've ever won. And then I just ate all the candy. Threw away a lot of the hard candy, but I ate all the fun size candies. But that's the but that's the only thing I've ever won. Scot Maupin: very, very relevant with our Halloween, Halloween so right around the corner. This is so relevant. Adam Braus: That's true. That's true. That's true. That well, we can use it. I guess it's all for all recording. Yeah. Scot Maupin: Enough candy to get you sick. Adam Braus: But that's Scot Maupin: That's right. Adam Braus: the only thing I've ever won. I've never won anything else. I've never won like a anything. No, no, no. I just never will wanna anything. Scot Maupin: Well then you're due, you're due. You gotta think about it that way. You're due, it's ready to go. Now anything you touch is gonna be instant win for Adam. Yeah, Mr. Adam Braus: Midas touch. Yeah, Nobel Prize. Boom. Scot Maupin: Instant Win over here. Adam Braus: I have to give it's okay if I don't win anything. I'm Scot Maupin: Ping! Adam Braus: a Buddhist. You know, Buddhists we don't. It's fine. You know, it's fine. They don't get you're not Scot Maupin: Buddhists don't gamble. Buddhists do gamble. Adam Braus: allowed to gamble. Buddhists are not allowed to gamble for sure. Not allowed to no Scot Maupin: You're not allowed. Who is, who is the Buddhist gamble? Adam Braus: gambling, no no addictive. Anything Scot Maupin: Drinking? Adam Braus: addictive. Like gambling is addictive, so you're not supposed to do that. Scot Maupin: What about working out? They say working out can be addictive. Buddhists are not. Adam Braus: It's not addictive in the sense that n addiction doesn't mean just that you like doing it. Addiction means that you would sacrifice good things in your life to go do it. Like if someone says, I'm addicted to pornography, and you say the the the question to see whether they actually are addicted to pornography is say, When's the last time you skipped work, neglected your family, gave up opportunity to make money, didn't go eat when you needed to eat, you know, sacrificed a friendship for pornography. And unless the answer is Yeah, Scot Maupin: And they're like, right now, bro, right now, right now. Adam Braus: right. Unless their answer is like, yeah, I've done that before. I actually I screwed up my whole marriage with pornography. Okay, then you're probably addicted to it. But if you're just like, no, no, no, I just like like pornography, it's like well that's not an addiction. That's just that's just liking things. Like I eat a lot of Nutella. I eat a lot of Nutella. And I wouldn't be happy if my Nutella Scot Maupin: Okay, outing yourself. Adam Braus: was taken away. But I haven't ruined a friendship over Nutella yet. it's possible.