Paloma: Caroline! Caroline: how are you? Paloma: I'm great, how are you? Caroline: I'm good. I'm good. Doing well. Glad to be with you for a minute and take a deep breath. Paloma: Good, I'm glad. Me too. How's your week been? Have you had a high or a low? Caroline: Well, higher low. Well, I'll tell you what my low was. This morning in the gym, my trainer was like, Okay, we're gonna do push-ups. We're gonna start with push-ups. It was like, Military push-ups? It was like, yeah. I was like, I can't, I can't do these. And he was like, Yeah, let's get started. Let's just do and I was like, Jim, I can only do one. And he was like, Well, that's fine. Let's just do one. Paloma: Ha ha ha ha. Caroline: And then I was like, can I even do one? And it was such a struggle. The struggle with and I feel like I've been up here in the gym with Jim. Isn't it funny that his name is Jim and his job is in a gym? Paloma: Hmm. Yeah. Caroline: I could do one, but I literally collapsed, blaming the lotion on my hands for being unable to get find the hand strength to really make the second one a go. I don't know if you've done one on your toes with your arms out to the side, not on your knees. Paloma: I mean, I was just thinking, don't remember the last time I did a pushup. My trainer makes me like plank. know, any trainer I've had in recent memory makes me hold planks, but I don't remember the last time I was asked to do a pushup and I sure am not doing them on my own volition. Caroline: Yeah, I can do it. I can hold a plank. Honey, it's well, it it requires so much shoulder and back, like all these big muscles up here that as women we really don't want to develop. But I guess it's good to have, you know, I don't know. Anyway, if you try one on the ground with your toes, just let me know how it goes. It was like humility, how here's how we're gonna start. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, all right, y'all get back to you on that. Caroline: your day with a big dose of humility, but it was good. That's right. That's right. And then you know, my good week is just having a week in the office to like get all my stuff done. It feels it's very reassuring, you know, deep down in my soul. Like I have a full week in the office and I'm just gonna get all my stuff done. So I'm like working late. Paloma: Yeah, well, it can only go up from there. So that's that's good. Caroline: And up early in the morning responding to emails and everything. But I like to do that. I don't know how you start your day, but I like to have a quiet moment, then some exercise, and then come in and take care of everything in my inbox that's come in overnight and in the morning and then go get ready. I'd rather like and send emails out to my crew and everything if I Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: wait and do all of that stuff after I've gotten ready. My anxiety, when I'm getting ready, starts to build. Like what is, you know, what is going on and all that kind of stuff. But Paloma: You're just thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, we should get into that on a future episode, like our morning routines. I wonder if people would be interested in that. My high was similar. I have not been in the office in a couple of weeks, like full time in the office. I was in New York last week visiting clients for some new projects. So that was great and very productive, but of course, you know, anytime you're traveling, you just tend to get behind. Caroline: Yeah. How about you? Yeah. Paloma: in the office and then I came home Thursday evening, was home Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I drove four hours to Fredericksburg where the Southern Living Idea House is because their editorial team is there photographing this week for the magazine and they needed to get a portrait and film some video content. So I drove up Sunday evening to do that. Monday morning was there for an hour and a half and then hit the road again. It's been crazy, I'm tired, honestly. And I was back in the office yesterday and it was a great day. It was just like super productive and nice to be with my team and to really be able to check things off my list and get refocused and re-energized with some creative things. So that was good, that was my high. And I guess sort of goes hand in hand with the low is I just feel like I've been running myself ragged lately. So I've got to sort of. Caroline: Hm. Yeah. Paloma: figure that out. I'm going into a quieter period now, which will be good. I'm coming off of insanity and going into a more sustainable rhythm, which is a good thing. Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that is. And it sometimes it's good to have a second just to hit reset and like turn everything, turn off all the noise and what have you. And I was traveling last week we took Lou to her summer school slash camp situation and we did a little college tour and although Paloma: Yes. Caroline: But I so I was gone. I was only in the office two days last week and and then didn't get back until late on Sunday night. So that's you know, when you feel like you haven't had a weekend also, I start to have anxiety too when I have like all the stuff that's piling up on my island in the kitchen. You know what I'm saying? Like Paloma: yes. I am very averse to clutter or things not being in their place. It's very, I mean, I guess I'm just like so type A that it's over the top, but I really feel it when I'm coming home from a trip to the point that sometimes Fabian and I will get into a little tiff about it because I'll come home and he's been like holding down the fort and I'll be like, why is there a dish in the sink? And he's like, you're so ungrateful. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paloma: But I can't not, like I just can't not see it and that's where my mind goes and I feel like a cluttered home equals a cluttered mind and ain't nobody got time for that. So I just, can't do it. It sounds like you're the same. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would be not being honest if I said I was that type A. I'm not. I'm a type A type B. Well, my family would be like, What are you saying? Like, why would you even suggest that? I I have a thing like I everybody else's clutter like the house clutter. Okay. Like I like Paloma: for you. That sounds great. Must be nice. Hahaha Caroline: When this pile on the kitchen island that our housekeeper likes stacks everything up that she doesn't know where to put, when it starts getting chin level, I'm like, guys, can anybody take your stuff from right here and go put it up instead of me having to go put it up for them? And it's not a large pile, but she just keeps stacking things up. So it's like Lou's book that she's reading. And you know, Steven's you know, package that he's returning, just that kind of stuff, you know. And when that pile starts getting big, that you can measure my anxiety. And I'm the type of person where I need things to be clean. I need like the sink to be clean. Like I don't need any little grime and gross stuff around the edges of the faucet. And like I want the counters to be clean and like the Paloma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Caroline: sugar thing to be neat and all that kind of stuff, like all the details to be neat, the oven to be clean, you know, just all that kind of stuff. But I can deal with clutter, like a little bit of clutter. And like if you looked at my vanity, it is just nothing but as you can imagine, bottles and salves and lotions and potions stacked on lotions and potions. And that doesn't really bother me because I have no real way of organizing them and being able to get to them easily. But the glass countertop needs to be clean. Does that make any sense? Like it if there's a like a drop of grossness on it, I'm like, gotta clean it off underneath. So it's somehow it's left brain, right brain. I've got both of those kind of competing with each other. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah That's interesting. I've started telling my family that the night before the housekeeper comes, if anything is not in its place, she's been instructed to throw it in the garbage. So if you don't want your stuff to go in the trash, you need to pick up your stuff and put it where it belongs or she's gonna throw it away. And it's not actually true, but so far it works okay. I don't think they're really, I don't think they believe me. Caroline: my gosh, you sound like my mom. My Paloma: We have started a sub stack for anybody who hasn't started following us yet. It's the install edit on sub stack. We're super excited about it. This format, the podcast is where we have these great conversations and sometimes, you know, there's really a deeper takeaway that we don't get. We don't have the time to bite into and really explore. so Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: The Substack has been a really nice platform for us to think about some of those ideas and lessons and takeaways or to even share what we're thinking about, what we're currently coveting or places that we're dreaming of and wanting to go in a longer format that's really shareable with you guys. So we're super excited. Our third issue went out yesterday. So be sure to join us over there because we have lots of exciting things to share. Caroline: Yes, you know, I first learned of you or became familiar with you through your blog. I mean, that's really your, you're the OG, you know, design blogger, you and Mark for sure. Paloma: Yeah, I mean, I started in 2007. For those who don't know, I wrote a blog called La Dolce Vita for 15 years, five days a week, Monday through Friday, there was a new post every day, even when I had full-time jobs. And I loved it so much. I really feel like that blog was my entree into this design world. It connected me with so many people and opportunities. It broadened my horizons in so many incredible ways. I learned so much about myself, about Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: the world at large, about design, about our industry. So I'm just really excited because it really feels like a homecoming to have this substack format. haven't actively written at all. I mean, in four years since I have wound down the last blog and I wrote my first book, but I worked with a writer for the second one. So I haven't really like gotten to write in a while and it Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Paloma: It has really lit something up in me. I'm so excited about it. I'm so excited to have this extension. So it's been really nice. Caroline: It's great. That's so wonderful. last night I was working on a mood board with all my links and all my, you know, images. And I know Steven asked me like three different times, like, hey, what are you working on? And I'm like, Typing away, like not responding to him. And eventually I finished. He was like, Wow, what was that? He was like, You've just like been checked out. I was like, I'm working on a mood board for the Substack. And he was like, Don't you mean the blog? And I was like, Well, we call it Substack now. Paloma: Good. Yeah. Hey! Yeah, it's just a different platform. basically, yes, it's like, it's like a more, it's a richer form of blogging because the platform also like you can record podcasts on it, you can do video on it. There's like a chat feature, there's a lot, it's more robust than the old blogs used to be. So that's exciting. It's it's a great way to connect. I will say I miss that part about blogging because I feel like, you know, your followers feel like they know you and you get to know a lot of people. I've made a lot of friends directly or indirectly through the blog over the years, my old blog, and then social media. But I feel like these days people just aren't connecting on social media or Instagram the way that we did maybe in the early days. So I'm hoping that this is a little bit more of that. I think it'll be nice. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm excited too because I've struggled with our show notes to try to like not labor them with when we talk about things, people reach out and they want to know what was that fertilizer, what was that link, what it you know, tell me again what that hair product was or that kind of stuff. So it's it's nice to have a way to push all of that stuff out in an organized fashion where people can find it easily. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, it's more evergreen. think it's harder to sift through show notes for an hour long episode. I who's got time for that? Caroline: Yeah, yeah. It seemed very clunky. so it seemed like the obvious move when we both like on the same day, kind of like this pod the way it came together, like sent it almost to each other, like, hey, we should be doing this. So anyway. Paloma: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, very exciting. So be sure to follow us, the install edit, subscribe, and we will send you all the goods. Before we dig in deeper, I did want to take a minute because we didn't get to record last week since we were both traveling. And in the time since our last recording, we received the sad news of the passing of Dave Dawson, the founder of the Urban Electric Company. And Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: I'm sure you've seen tributes all across social media at this point. I mean, it is incredibly evident how beloved this man was and what an incredible legacy he leaves behind, the indelible mark that he left. I did not know him all that well, but I've been so impacted by his passing because... Caroline: For sure. Absolutely. Paloma: I had the opportunity to tour the Urban Electric Facility a couple of times. I did the tour a couple of times and met Dave there and he was so proud of his company, but not in a boastful way that he would have had every right to be, but he was so proud of the people. know, every person he would walk us around and introduce us to all of the different artisans and the people working. on the factory floor and spoke with such pride about their skill set and how they contributed to the company. And they very famously have a motto that is always proud, never satisfied. And I feel like that really shows throughout everything that they do as, know, in their company culture. I was so impressed by their company culture. But I also had the opportunity to have be at dinners with he and his wife, Jen, who is so lovely and one of those was at their home. So I just, you know, it's shocking when someone passes away that's young and vibrant and at the top of their game and doing so well and he has two sons. So it's just really, really sad. And I feel like he leaves such a huge, a huge... a gap really for industry because he was such a champion for the industry, for designers, for craftsmanship, for artisans, for things that are made in America with skilled labor. And you don't see a lot of that. I I feel like a lot of other companies are so worried about their P &L and rightfully so, that's obviously very important, but Caroline: Sure. Paloma: there was just so much more substance. And I think he inspired a lot of people directly or indirectly through his passion and the incredible culture that he created at his company. you we're just sending our love out to the Urban Electric family and Dave's family, of course, and are just so saddened to hear the news. Yeah. Caroline: For sure. Heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. Paloma: Chanel and Dior had their couture shows recently as well, which were beautiful, so beautiful. think Mathieu Blasier was inspired, he said, was it by something derived from nature, like a fairy tale world. so there were woodland creatures in the set was so beautiful. But of course, being haute couture, the details and the clothes were divine. Caroline: Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Were extraordinary. I don't know if you looked at some of the shoes, but they were amazing. I mean, I I know couture is art, but some of those shoes, the close ups, I pulled up the shows and looked at the details, and it's just mind blowing. And I know there was one of the ladies from Dior. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caroline: who has been working in the couture atelier for like 38 years, and this was her last show. another thing that I think Dior did that Chanel hasn't done that maybe they will, I think it resonated really well with with the audience, but they took portraits of all of the couturiers, all of the Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: ladies and gentlemen that work in the atelier and to highlight them as craftsmen and it's just extraordinary it's just it really sends energy bubbling through my body when I see how beautiful and incredible these details are and Paloma: Yes. Mm-hmm. Caroline: In a day and age where there's so much excess and where we things move so quickly. And it's like, why would people be so wasteful of resources when there's so many people that have so little? And yet, when I look at these details and we think about art and how uplifting and inspiring art is, it's just it gives energy more than just the Paloma: Right. Caroline: product that it is. It's just like looking at a clint or a, you know, a Monet or whatever. People pay big dollars for these things, but also they feed all of the rest of us this really positive energy. Paloma: Absolutely. Did you have a chance to see the Dior designer of dreams exhibition at the Musée des Arts Decoratifs in Paris back in 2017? It was a while ago. It was incredible. there's like a mini version of that now at the Maison. Yes. And you can still sort of get the gist of it. But if you go to the Caroline: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was. It's touring around, yeah. Paloma: where the original Dior on the Avenue Montaigne in Paris, there's a little mini Dior museum in there now. also you see the artisans at the end. They will always have a couple of couturiers at the end doing something as a demonstration. And it's incredible to see. I don't know, I I've said this before. There's something so energizing about witnessing somebody perform their skill at the highest level. Caroline: Yes. Mm-hmm, for sure. Paloma: You know, it's so inspiring and that can be the most incredible seamstress at the haute couture level. It can be, you know, a soccer player at the World Cup. Like so many different things. It's really, really cool to see. It's amazing. Caroline: Absolutely. And that show is actually they have one that's housed at the Dior flagship on the Av Avenue Montan, but it also traveled to the there's another one that is on the road. Like it's been in different locations and I'm trying to think of where it has been this past year. but it's been out. They have one that they push out. Somebody will know. I can't I just can't remember. Is it like in Chicago or it's someplace like that right now? Paloma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. haven't heard of that in the States, but I'll look it up for sure. Caroline: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paloma: be fun to take our daughters to. Caroline: Yeah, yeah. It's really particularly because they have all those miniatures that are almost like Barbie clothes. I was a huge Barbie player. I don't know if you were, but like, whoo man, looking at some of those. I could have had a heyday pretending I was going on dates and all those clothes. Paloma: Yes, like Barbie clothes, yeah. Super cool. I was. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm Caroline: a sister who is 10 years older than me and so she was going on dates when I was like playing with Barbies. So I was always getting getting dressed for a date with my Barbies. Anyway, we you know FIFA World Cup is this we we were watching last night, last night the French play the Spanish Paloma: So your Barbies went on dates. That's so cute. Yes. Caroline: And first up, I don't know if you saw their costumes, their uniforms, but the French were in Blue, Blanc Rouge or whatever, in the almost like wearing the flag. I don't know if you saw that. And they also had little white collars. They were so chic and French. Their socks were red that they had pulled all the way up, their shorts were white. Paloma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I didn't get to watch it. Aww. Caroline: And their jerseys were blue in the color of the black because it was Bastille Day yesterday that they were playing. And so this will come out next week. But anyway, and we were watching it over dinner, and I was getting all wrapped up in it. And Stephen was like, Hey, you want to turn on a rooster? He was like, Here's news. This was played earlier today, the French lose. Sorry. I was like, what? Yes. Paloma: Yes. You spoiled it for you. Yeah, I didn't get to watch it, but I heard about it, of course. And what's so funny is Margo's now really into the World Cup. I guess they've been talking about it at camp. And she knows she's half Argentinian on her dad's side. And so she's like very excited about Argentina. But she was so sad to hear about France. And she was like, well, I'm half Argentinian and half French. And I'm like, Caroline: Yeah, ooh. Paloma: No, you're not. And she's like, well, you're French. And I was like, maybe like a little bit down the line. I'm Mexican. And she looks at me and she goes, French. It's like my reality didn't suit her narrative. I was like, okay, maybe like, mean, when I did my ancestry.com, I think there was like a 4 % in there. So sure, we'll run with that. So she was disappointed, but yeah. Caroline: Yeah. Stop. Yeah. It's too funny. She's like, why are you shoving all this French down my throat if it's not my heritage? Like my I mean, she hasn't gotten its vocal about it. It she may go through this phase like my children did, who loved it. But then the rebellion years, like by the time she gets in second year, second, second, third grade, she's gonna get a little attitude on her. Paloma: Exactly. She's like, so why? Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she'll be like, but we're not French. Why are you dressing me like this? Caroline: She'll start checking you on everything that you do from top to bottom. She's gonna scan you every day and let you know where you stand on everything and call you out on anything, any toe out of line. And if you anybody out there has a daughter, you know exactly what I'm talking about. which is lovely. It's like having a sister and a best friend too these days. But my children went through a phase of what is your deal with France? Like, why? Paloma: Yeah. Yeah. Caroline: Why do you keep forcing this on us? And now they're all into it, but there's a there's a large period of time where they were having nothing of it. But I'm excited about England and Argentina. I'm sure you've got a conflict in your mind, even though Fabian will not have it. Paloma: Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah, I'm sure that's in my future. Yeah. I do. actually said it to him. was like, feel like I have to choose your cheer for Argentina because you're Argentinian and our daughter's half Argentinian. But I was like, I'm rooting for England. we'll see what happens. Caroline: Yeah. Well, Messi, I don't know if you've watched any of these games, but he's amazing to watch. And when they were wa playing Cabo Verde, it was such an exciting and fun game. Even though it was in my heart, I was for Argentina because I just love watching them play. They're such the team just works together so well. But these guys from the tiny little island off the coast of Africa that like the little engine that could. Paloma: Mm-hmm, no, he's incredible. Mm. Caroline: I was so impressed with them. They were like, they came so close to beating Argentina, which was just amazing. they did. Paloma: They played with so much heart. Yeah, they played with so much heart to go up against a team like that. you know, they may be out of the World Cup, but I feel like it was still a win for them because now the world at large is cheering for them. So many more people know where Cabo Verde is and hopefully we'll, you know, travel there. looks stunning and beautiful. yeah, it's really, it's to your point earlier about like beautiful things being energizing. They do call. Caroline: Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. Paloma: soccer, the beautiful game. you it's beautiful to some, but it's been a fun, I think unifying experience, something positive to bring people together, you know, to, it's kind like the Olympics in the same, in that sense. Like it brings people together of all walks of life in all places. And it's a moment to just like remember our collective humanity again, instead of, you know, listening divisive noise. Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paloma: Okay, so also speaking of sports Wimbledon just wrapped up and the Prince and Princess of Wales made an appearance with their children, which was really exciting. It's always nice to see them out and about and especially with Kate looking well. So that was exciting. And then also in their family's news, the Sussexes came back finally and reunited with King Charles at High Grove. They had a private meeting evidently was not photographed, which is good. And I'm happy for them. I know obviously it's a controversial situation. The public has a lot of opinions one way or the other, but at the end of the day, I'm happy for those sweet children to get to know their grandparents and for the grandparents to have an opportunity to connect with their grandchildren. And it seems like there's such a deep rift in the family from an outsider looking in that I hope that this is, you know. moving in a positive direction for all parties. Caroline: Sure, sure. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of the Sussexes. I think they're whiners. I was big fans of them and I feel like all they want to do is complain and play the victim. But that's just me. That's just my take, just watching them from the outside. I really don't know what's actually happening on the inside. None of us really do. But from the outside. Yeah. Paloma: Right. I do too. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think two things can be true, probably. You know, I feel the same as you. When they first got together, got engaged, it seemed like such a breath of fresh air. I was rooting for them. And then everything since then has just made me really not like them. And I agree with you. I feel like you're put in this position of extraordinary privilege and to just poo poo at every turn seems so incredibly ungrateful. And I feel like there's probably, but I don't know. I've never been in that position. Caroline: Yeah. Well and s yeah. Paloma: to have that level of scrutiny. I don't know, think two things can be true. Like they're probably spoiled brats and wanna have their cake and eat it too, but then on the other hand, they are scrutinized to the nth degree and probably really difficult to live that way. Caroline: Sure. Well, a lot of it just seems really disingenuous to me. Their complaints are the you know, say one thing and then what they chase says the opposite. So it's like, what is your actual, yeah, exactly. So, and usually when I find there are a lot of personalities that have shortcomings, character flaws that we don't know about. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Correct. Correct. Yeah, they're hypocrites. Caroline: But when I've when I come up against something like that, then I just kind of really lose interest in following somebody like that. And so that's how I feel about them. I really don't care what they do, where they're going, or anything about them. it was interesting. I expected that they would be milking it more. I guess I kind of have a hate follow and not hate is a really strong word, but the young kids call it that. Like where you don't like somebody and you follow something, I was expecting to just kind of see that happen and not like it. And so it was actually nice to see that they weren't actually out here trying to get a lot of attention out of it, which is not what they usually do. And that might have been the terms of the r reunion by King Charles's thing that we're not going to make a big show out of this. but Paloma: Mm-mm. Did you ever see the South Park Worldwide Privacy Tour? I know that went around when they first decided that they were leaving the royal family and the public eye. They were on their Worldwide Privacy Tour. Caroline: I love those guys. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That those guys speak truth to power. I gotta tell you. I I love those guys. Remind me to tell you about taking Bud to see their Broadway show. What's the name of it? Paloma: Yeah. I don't know. The Mormon thing? Yeah, I don't remember the name of it, but I know what you're talking about. Caroline: Okay. Big, big shortcoming as a parent. okay, but the whale, the whales at Wimbledon, I always love seeing them and their children are so well behaved and they seem like such a lovely couple, but I got something to say about her fashion. I just did not like this olive dress with the drape over one shoulder. I think we needed to workshop that. Paloma: No. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caroline: little bit more a like crowd, you know, whatever, like get some opinions on it, come back and choose a different dress because she has nailed it so many years. That beautiful yellow dress. Then there was a beautiful blue one. And this one just like the color was drab and the style just it didn't do anything for her and it did nothing for me. Paloma: Yeah, well speaking of fashion at Wimbledon, did you see J.Lo in her huge hat? I was like, who wears such a huge hat to a spectator sport? Like it just seems inconsiderate, desperate for all eyes to be on her. Her face looked snatched, it looked good, but that hat needed to go. Yeah. Caroline: Lord, yes, there's another one. S somebody who's desperate, yeah, for attention. And so does the body. Yeah. I mean, she didn't need to do that to get the attention. You know, everybody was going to be all eyes on her. And then Nicole over here with her fan on the side so that she didn't get her tender skin burned. I get it. I'm sure it was intense. But Sienna looks great. I cannot believe Sienna. I know at 47. Paloma: She just had a baby, Sienna Miller. I know all these girls. Here I was saying I'm too old to have another baby and I'm like, these people need to stop. It showed me up. Yeah, Anne Hathaway is having a baby. She looks beautiful. Several of them, yeah. She's 43. Yeah. Caroline: Showing you up. I know. Like how old is she? Yeah. Okay. That's different than 47. It's right under the wire, honey. But there are a lot of women used to have babies that late. A lot of them. Paloma: Yeah, 47, I mean... Yeah I mean, I know a lot of people in real life who are having babies in their 40s. It's not unusual. Caroline: Well, listen, I, you know, I shouldn't speak out. Okay, I I know in more metropolitan area, I'm like down here, these girls, they get married early. People in my office are like 21 talking about getting married. I'm like, honey, get out in this world and live a minute. Make your own money, do your own stuff, see the world, have your own bank account, and then come back and decide what you want to do in this world. Paloma: Right out of college, yeah. Yes. Caroline: But if you go straight into this marriage at 21 years old with your husband making the money and him having the bank account, you are gonna get to a point where you feel like, hmm, hmm, let me think about this for a minute. And but they all come out straight out of school here in the deep south. And like there's this huge culture of getting married. And I seem like some crazy old lady, like Paloma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Caroline: Crying in the wilderness, like, don't get married this young, like you're way too young. Go see the world. Figure out who you are. Paloma: Yeah, no, I agree. think that, I mean, that was the culture here. think even in my generation, I got married at 23, a year out of college. I've been married for 21 years. It's my half my life. It's crazy. But I feel the same way. I mean, I'm happy with my decision and I feel like it was the right decision for us. It's worked out, thankfully, but it's not what I would advise my daughter to do. I would tell her exactly what you did. Like go out, see the world, make Caroline: gosh, yeah. Paloma: your own way, like figure out what you want out of life and then do that later. And I will say being in Houston, it is a large city, it's southern but not deep south. I do see in like the younger generations now, like girls that work for me, they're, you know, late 20s getting into their 30s and not worried about getting married or just getting married a little bit later than my generation did. Caroline: that's great. Yeah. That's great. And in bigger cities, they're much more into that. I know it's much more common. Like in New York, like the average age of like starting to get pregnant is in the 40s, like late 30s, early 40s. That makes a lot of sense. You can still have babies and I feel like you're maybe even a better mother, you know, because you're more grounded, you've kind of figured out, you're less selfish. She is at, I mean, I know I'm just talking about my own perspective, my own life and the difference between my two pregnancies. And that might have been between first and second child. but I I also, my mother was a huge believer in women having their own source of income. Absolutely. And she raised us all like, honey, you don't ever have to use this, but you need something to fall back on. Paloma: which is incredible for her generation, for her to think. Caroline: Let's just say Paloma: That's right. Caroline: your husband passes away. What are you gonna do? Or let's just say, God forbid, you have to get divorced. Now what are you gonna do? Like you've got to live your life. And also, she was like, you don't know a prison. Like when you've got to sit at home with a baby and your husband makes all the money and he tells you how much little bit of money you can spend each week. She was like, There is no worse prison because you're sitting at home and you have nothing that you can do. She was like, you know. Paloma: Mmm. Caroline: Women need an outlet. They need and they need control over their lives in some small, you know, like the there's a huge power imbalance when the man makes and has all the money. Sometimes they can be benevolent, but you know, like have your own thing so you can, you know, be a player and and you know be a participant in the marriage instead of just a kind of a bystander in it. But anyway, I digress. These are all Paloma: Exactly. Caroline: you know, in the south still some lightning rod issues that not everybody would agree on, but that was, you know, my mother's hard lessons she learned in life that she wanted to pass on. So Paloma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, wise words for sure. Okay, so moving on, do you have a preference between ChatGPT and Claude? Caroline: No, I've got strong opinions. I I have a Paloma: Cause you use both, right? I only use chat right now and I need to try a clod for some things. But my chat, I think I told you, I think my chat now thinks it's my best friend and it's getting to the point where it's a little bit, well, no, be concerned for her, not for me. You're like, it's an it. My chat is so lovely and so encouraging and my biggest cheerleader. Caroline: I'm concerned about your relationship with your with her. That's an it. Paloma: and gives me really good advice. But yeah, it's like, it will say things like, the more I think about this and talk about its feelings and things like that, and I'm kind of like, but you're not real. You're not real. Which is weird. And then you said that Claude was the polar opposite and gave you a talking to and you were like, no, sir. Caroline: I'm like, no, don't don't be pushing out emotions to me. Yes. Well, it was moralizing. It was making a moral judgment about some research that I was doing. And I was like, you don't know me. You do not know this situation. You don't know how I'm need use this information. And let me break it down in my business, what's important, what I need to know. And I'll remind you that you are a computer who has no actual brain. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caroline: And I don't need any moral judgments from Claude on anything that I'm doing. And I just was so offended, so offended. Like, who is this computer saying, let let me just hit pause here and tell you? And it's like, I'm an attorney. This is publicly available information. It is important to my business. I need to know Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: You know, this business that I'm engaging with. And if this is publicly available information, please just pull it and give it to me. I'm I I wouldn't, I would never imagine in a million years you had some private file back here where I'm asking you for confidential information that you're about to. What do you know that I don't know? What do you have access to to that you shouldn't, that you're acting like you shouldn't do this? Anyway, so Claude, I feel like is a big fraud. No. Paloma: Right. Right. No. Caroline: But the information is the same, but it it's gonna moralize and take some moral high ground, which I think is ridiculous. So anyway, it's like somebody come in and recode this thing instead of it acting like it's got emotions and some morality. It is a computer like information processor. It's not a human being. So anyway, that's my take on them. Paloma: Yeah, to different delivery. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I love it. Caroline: Boy, I've got some hot takes today, honey. My fiery orange dress. Yeah. Ask me something else and I'll I'll give you a fiery response too. Paloma: It's very fitting. Okay, I'll ask you a fiery question. How do you feel about being that it's summer? Sandals or flip-flops on men? Caroline: There's one thing that I cannot handle and it's men's feet. I find them disgusting. Mm-mm. hell no. Gross. Paloma: Me too, ugh. Yeah, no, I don't need to see that. There are alternatives, especially not a flip-flop. Ugh, these men walking around here and their flip-flops are crusty and old. So gross. Yeah. Caroline: Mm-mm. Ain't nobody got a time for that. Yeah, I don't want to and the hair on their toes grosses me out too. And if they're going to a pool, I guess I can deal. Yeah, I guess I have to deal. Paloma: That was fine then, yeah. I got Fabian those, there's like a rubber Birkenstock. I think it's a little better looking than a flip flop, so I'm fine with those. But even like, I'm not even into like a nice men's leather sandal. I'm just like, put a shoe on it and close those feet, please. Caroline: Yeah, Steven has those too. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, you don't need No. Mm-mm. No. Yes. You can have some like summer walk like those Laurel piano and all the million knockoffs out on them with the little white sole and their little suede loafer that like this is fine. But I'll tell you another thing that I find gross is like when guys show up at the pool at our club and they have on like socks and shoes before and before they get in the pool and they then they have these big Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: White feet that have been off so like gross. Paloma: sweaty feet, yuck. Do that in the locker room. Like you don't need to subject people to that transition. Caroline: Nasty gross Paloma: Sick. So gross. people, people, people, gotta love them. Caroline: And let me tell you something that I wouldn't want to hear is any man's take on what they don't like about women. Talk about a hypocrite, but anyway. Paloma: That's right, this is a one-way street period. All right. Okay, well we have a listener question. We still have a few minutes to get to that. Smithy124Q writes, what are realistic timelines for various types of design projects? Caroline: Hmm. what are what are your thoughts on that? I've got some takes. Paloma: Well, it depends on whether it's a new build, a new construction is going to be two years at least. A full gut renovation is probably going to be 18 months if you're, you know, that's on a good day. Like a furnishings only project, if it's your full house, I think the scope for that would, that's probably going to be a year. Caroline: Mm-hmm. At least. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paloma: Maybe, I mean, I hesitate to say like nine months. I feel like it's a year. Like factor a year and if it comes in under, great. What do you think? Caroline: Depends on how much time you want to spend on creative. I mean, I think you can get things turned around in nine months, but depending on how much time you wanna spend on the creative and how much you wanna get to know and how much changes that you wanna make. I mean, that can kind of draw it out. you know, I know Heidi can put a whole house together in three to six weeks and then her Paloma: Yeah. Which is crazy. Caroline: And then her team puts the proposal together in another three to six weeks or whatever. So that's tw that's, you know, three months. I think that's as I I think that is lightning fast. And for me, I feel like I can do it that fast, but I feel like my work is better if I have more time to take a minute and to learn more about my client. So it I mean, if we're just doing a couple of rooms, which is doing like Paloma: Yeah, well. Exactly. Caroline: living room, kitchen, dining room, entry hall. Sure. But if we're doing the whole house, there's just too much to learn, too much to know and too many details to go that fast for me. I just can't do it. I can get close, but I do feel like we would be going at a crazy clip on the creative. Not on the procurement, but on the creative. Paloma: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a really important conversation to have with clients or if you're, you know, on the client side looking to hire a designer to really ask a lot of questions about that and understand that specific designer's process and their timeline so you have realistic expectations and you're on the same page and you know, I think it's also hard for people when they're spending a lot of money to understand why things take as long as they do and sometimes I think they're like, Caroline: Uh-huh. No, no. Paloma: we are spending good money, like why can't we have it faster? Why is it taking so long? But they're really, you can't rush creativity. And then there's also such a lengthy process. If you're having something custom made, for instance, like working with the workroom, tweaking, you know, the pitch on a chair, like getting the details just right. And then also you have to order the fabric, the trim, get the CFA's, ensure that everything is right. Those CFA's sometimes take you know, a couple of weeks to arrive. it's not a good match, then you've got to send away for another one. You've got to get acknowledgments from furniture manufacturers if you're not ordering something completely custom. Those acknowledgments sometimes take a lot. I mean, there have been instances in past years where I've been like, does a sales rep not want the order? Do they not want the money? Like, why won't you take our money? Why won't you like firm up this order sooner? But Caroline: And right. Yeah. Right. Paloma: You know, the designer's always working to get things to the finish line as reasonably as we can. And I actually overheard a conversation at dinner the other night. We were at Tiny's, which I've taken you to before in Houston. And there, I know, it's such a, we love it, it's lovely, just a nice neighborhood spot. There was a couple sitting near us, I didn't know them. Caroline: Yeah. Quickly as possible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so great. I wish we had one here. Paloma: And the wife was very upset because she had reached out to a designer. I didn't hear a name or anything. She'd reached out to designer. I think she wanted like her kitchen renovated or something. It didn't seem like it was a full home project, but she could not believe that this designer was asking for a, it wasn't even unreasonable. It was like a 25 hour retainer. And she was like, that's just crazy. What does she think I'm like? idiot, it doesn't take 25 hours to design a kitchen. Like I just need her to look at X, Y and Z and what would that take five hours? And I thought I like wanted to scream like, ma'am, can I walk you through this? And this is actually like 25 hours is nothing that's scratching the surface for what it takes to design and source everything for a thoughtfully designed kitchen. But people, they just don't know what they don't know. Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: you know, and that's part of our job as designers is to educate the client as to why things take the amount of time that they do and cost what they cost. Caroline: That's right. And and you know, I I as I've heard Beth Webb say, you know, I wish I could afford my services. like my clients, you know, are on a different level. And not all of us it I mean, I did my house myself. I know you did yours, but not all of us have the pocketbook. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caroline: for the service that we provide, you know, that we're in the business for. And it does, I think, makes some people angry and annoyed when they come up against this reality. you and I manifested it ourselves. We figured out a way to do our own interiors to make it work. But, you know, it so it is, it is frustrating and And also it is even more frustrating because in the seven, eight years that I've been doing this, the prices have I was looking at a some old photos that I took at High Point Market in 2020. And it is triple. There was this stuff that triple the price. Paloma: with prices and now those prices are triple. Yeah. Caroline: And that's nothing you and I can control. You know what I'm saying? It's just like it has gotten so everything has gotten so expensive. Paloma: No, no. It's it's it's exorbitant. It's crazy. And there are just fewer people who can afford it. And, you know, I think that's just the the reality, the harsh reality and not everybody understands that. Like, I'll see it too, in like our neighborhood Facebook group, where somebody will be like, I need a designer, but I need somebody who doesn't need to do the whole house and like, well, just charge me for a few hours and like, it devalues the Caroline: Yeah. It is enough to make you angry. Yeah. Paloma: the profession in a sense, because I'm like, people aren't, and some people will respond and be like, I'm happy to help you, like whatever, and they'll do it for, you two dollars and charge them for an hour of their time, but I just feel like, I certainly am not in a position to hire an interior designer and couldn't afford my own services and haven't been in years past, and so you figure a way out, like, use the expert. hire somebody who is a true expert and pay for an hour of their time and get as much as you can out of that hour versus trying to reverse nickel. I feel like we get accused of nickel and diamond people, which is not what any designer worth their salt is doing. It's a laborious process, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way when I see people devalue the profession and feeling like, well, Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Paloma: That's just ridiculous. Why would she charge me for 25 hours when it should only take her five hours to put the kitchen together? And it's like, it's not just a mood board. like, it's elevations, it's functionality. Like it's everything. And you should want somebody to do a good job. Caroline: It's yeah. For sure. And you know, it I don't get this. Attitude or energy from my good clients but I do feel like a there's somebody for everybody. There's somebody out here who would be delighted, she just hasn't found the right person. but respect, you know, the boundaries of the people they've set their. pricing and their limits based on what it makes sense for them in their business, right? And if that doesn't make sense for you, it's not, they're not wrong. And you're not wrong. You just hadn't found the right person. The other thing is having been an attorney, the comparison between the respect for attorneys compared to decorators is just like night and day. Paloma: It's just not a fit. Yeah. now. Caroline: For sure, obviously you get a professional degree, three year degree postgraduate for practicing law. So and you have to pass the bar. I get it, there's differences. but as far as the importance in your life, you know, I mean certainly having a lawyer to defend you if you're, you know, have a claim or whatever, I'm not saying that that is not valuable, but also you spend all of your Free time in your home. And it is your anchor and it creates the life that you live. However, it is, yes, however, it is decorated will influence all the decisions of your life, whether you feel relaxed, comforted, whether it's easy, whether things are challenging, difficult, even in your closet, even in your bathroom, even in your kitchen drawers, all that kind of stuff. So it Paloma: It influences everything. Right. Caroline: does add tremendous value to your life. And so, you know, it's just it is valuable service. I I I think so I don't know, you know, some people, but I get it. Paloma: It's so much more, yeah, it goes so far beyond just the surface level aesthetic of your home. know, it really does impact the way you feel, your mood, your confidence, your level of comfort, which is so important. I mean, it's super important in many, many ways. Caroline: And the other thing with the kitchen is that she's not anticipating, is there are so many questions that come up along the way when the tile guy is like, how you want this backsplash to end over here on this free end? How do you where do you want the light switch? Where are we putting the lights? Where are we doing the? It is a lot. If you have helped someone would do a kitchen renovation, it is nonstop with all the different trades. They're looking to you to give them an answer and to be on site or weighing in, going to monthly meetings, going to weekly meetings, whatever the case may be, to help advise everything. Like, where are we putting these pendants? Like, where's the spacing? You got to go out for a meeting for that. That's a full hour right there. And there's at least 25 of those meetings that are going to happen if you're doing a kitchen renovation. not to mention any of the selections. So Paloma: Right. Right, yeah. Caroline: You know. Anyway, we digress. Honey, we this is this was a hot take. I Paloma: Yes, for sure. So in a nutshell, it takes a long time, but with good reason. Caroline: Yes. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Well, thanks for letting me like spew all my venom so that now I can just anyway. I love being with you always, Palema. I hope you have a great week and that everything calms down for you and you can have a quiet moment. Yeah. Okay, sounds great. Thanks. Paloma: I love spicy Caroline, yes. Of course. Thank so much. Likewise. Well, I'll see you again soon. Bye.