Caroline: We're excited to have friend of the pod, Brian Huffman back with us today. Welcome Brian. Bryan: Well, I'm always glad to be with the two of my favorite people here. Paloma: we're delighted you're back. And I have to say, it is by popular demand. So many people have written in telling us how much they enjoyed hearing you on the Bryan: Of course. Caroline: you Paloma: first episode that you did with us and asking, begging when you would come back. So I think everyone will be so happy to hear from you again because you are such a gifted storyteller and obviously a good friend of ours. So we're delighted to have you. Caroline: And everybody. Bryan: And rather uncensored, I guess. Paloma: That's that's the best outcome. Bryan: Politically correct talk has never been my forte. Caroline: Well, everybody loves Brian everywhere we go from anybody who's waiting on our table to the matri- to the receptionist, whoever our path crosses loves Brian. So it's not surprising to me in the Bryan: Mm-hmm. Caroline: slightest. Okay, we have to pick back up where we left off with all of the juicy details of the icon that was Bunny Melon. But first, I like to do some kind of little game with our guests. And this one I'm calling Social Studies, okay? So this is study in social life and or manners. And a couple of years ago, does anybody listen to This American Life? No, just me. I'm the only nerd on this podcast. it was like the first, one of the first podcasts, there was a person who worked on the show and her mother was from the deep South and her mother had these seven rules of polite conversation. And those are, there are seven topics that are strictly off limits in polite conversation. And I found it so fascinating. And because it's been over a decade, I thought we might, we are the perfect people to revisit these topics. Okay. So these are like, when you go and you're a guest at somebody's house over the weekend or just for dinner, if you're at a cocktail party, wherever you are, these are seven topics you should never discuss. Can you, can anybody guess them? You want to try? Okay. Bryan: I know some. Religion, politics, and money. Caroline: Money is the only one that's on this list. Bryan: Okay. Paloma: okay. Caroline: And these are ones that are ruled out as either mundane or just strictly off limits. And money is on the list because it is seen as vulgar to discuss money in any Bryan: Completely. Caroline: way. any way. Good, bad, it is vulgar. We do not discuss money. How much something costs, how much somebody spent, what they paid for anything, any of that kind of stuff we don't discuss, right? Okay. Paloma: Correct. Bryan: Absolutely. Caroline: But religion and politics are not on this list. Those, Bryan: Okay. Caroline: I think, would actually be interesting dinner party conversations. You may not want to discuss them if you don't want to offend anybody, but... Bryan: Well, in a different era, it seems like people have become very polarized and you can't have an opposite kind Paloma: Right. Bryan: of intellectual discussion about policy. It becomes Caroline: I agree. I agree. Bryan: people get really heated. Caroline: I was talking to my son about this who has very strong views like so many young people. And he lives in this social echo chamber. And was like, you you need to get to a place where you can have, people used to have conversations Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: and you had good friends who you didn't agree with. And you just argued about things in a good natured way, but you didn't agree Bryan: Right. Caroline: with each other. But it tested your arguments. made you stop and think. And sometimes they made good points and you're like, hmm, I need a better argument or I need to abandon this one. Cause this, this one was untested and it don't work. Exactly. Bryan: Right. Exactly. So you can back it up, back up what you're saying. Paloma: Right, or Caroline: I agree. Paloma: better yet, it might open your eyes to a different way of thinking Caroline: That's right. Paloma: or maybe, you Bryan: Yes. Paloma: know, considering an issue in a way that you hadn't before, but I think that kind of civil discourse is a little harder to carry out at this moment. Bryan: At the moment it is. Yes. Caroline: Yeah, it's unfortunate. We got to get back to that, where we can just talk about things and have different opinions without demonizing everybody. OK, first up, how you slept. Ain't nobody got time for that. Paloma: That's on the list. Caroline: Yes, number one, do not, under any circumstances, discuss how you slept the night before. Paloma: interesting. Bryan: And that's all people talk about today with some kind of mood rings or something. Everybody's saying Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: I slept 6.2 hours and had my oxygen saturation level at 98.6 or whatever. Completely. Caroline: and I'm already bored, right? It's a complete bore. It may Paloma: It's a bore. Caroline: be fascinating to you, but it bores everybody else. Paloma: Yes. Caroline: Number two, what you dreamt. Nobody wants to hear your Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: dreams. Right? Bryan: I won't tell Lauren Lawrence, who wrote the book on dreams in New York. Caroline: Well, I think if you're- Paloma: I mean, I feel like if you're Bryan: No way. Paloma: with come with people that you know, maybe with someone that is a complete stranger, they have no interest in that. But like if the three of us were traveling together at breakfast and I had this crazy dream, I might be like, guys, you'll never believe what I dreamt about last night or Bryan: About the Duke of whatever at Beaver Cast. Paloma: Ha ha ha. Caroline: Well, then now that wasn't a dream, although for a minute there, I thought maybe I'd had some crazy like Paloma: Ha ha ha ha. Caroline: encounter with the spirit. It turns out it wasn't. I know, right? Paloma: That's what I thought. I was convinced, Bryan: Mm-hmm. Paloma: I was like, that was a ghost, Caroline. Caroline: And if, well, should I even say, I feel bad even saying, was obviously, I was privy to a private moment that was, you know, whatever. Anyway, but we weren't sure if it was ghost or somebody real. Anyway. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: Okay, and this one, Brian, cover your ears and your eyes. Number three, your period. Nobody and nobody got time. for a discussion of that. let Paloma: I would agree. Caroline: me just also say that these topics, what they did in This American Life was take on the challenge and everybody took one of these topics and tried to do a story out of it that would actually be interesting for other people about these personal details. then they put them to the test of her mother, whether or not she thought it was interesting. and she didn't Bryan: Right. Caroline: think any of these things were interesting. number four, your health. Bryan: True. That I would have put that with religion and politics. And your help. Caroline: Yeah. Anything going on in your health. Nobody, Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: nobody wants to know the details when they say, how are you doing? They really just want you to say, I'm doing great. How about you? Bryan: I'm well on you. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: They will don't want to know, well, I've got a slip disc and I've got had to go to the that's in polite conversation. Not talking Paloma: Right. Caroline: about when Paloma and I are. you know, chit chatting or you and I on Sunday afternoons, Brian, when we're Paloma: Okay. Caroline: working through all the details of our life, when you're at a dinner party, having conversation, your guests at somebody's house, these are not things to discuss. Okay, number six, your diet, what you're eating and how you're eating. Paloma: I agree. I mean I feel like that's your s like your sleep. Nobody cares about your personal health habits in polite conversation. And it's presumptuous to assume that they would be interested in that. Caroline: presumptuous. And I'm also thinking, hmm, I think I've done that on this podcast and I don't think I'll do it anymore. Bryan: Ha ha ha. Paloma: Well, we've done it on the podcast, but the podcast is different because it's Bryan: Yes. Paloma: a conversation between friends. It's n you know, are we polite people? Yes, but this is not a polite conversation between strangers Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: at a a dinner party. Caroline: Yes, but I will say these are good reminders, right? I mean, we just don't want, you know, and we're all guilty of messing them up. And then here's the last one, root talk. Don't talk about how you get from A to B, like how you got here, how you're going Paloma: A root, okay. Caroline: back, root talk. And you know, they used to do on Saturday Night Live, the Californians, do y'all remember that? Paloma: Yes, yes, that was so funny. Bryan: Ha ha ha. Caroline: And so much of the skit is, and Californians do seem to find this very fascinating, whether they took the 101 to the Van Dyse Parkway Bryan: yeah. Caroline: or the, I guess because the traffic is so bad, but we don't discuss route talk or traffic or how you got anywhere, what you took, what modes of transportation you took to get to a destination. or how you're going back. Bryan: Right. Paloma: So was her criteria criterion basically just bore like these topics are boring? Okay. Caroline: or boring. The people that you're talking to have absolutely no interest in what you're saying. Paloma: Yeah, I think it's a solid list then. I agree. Bryan: Mm-hmm. Caroline: Outside of money, which people might have an interest in, but it gets thrown in because it's vulgar. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: And you know, Bryan: True. Caroline: that's a real Southern thing. have found, you know, Brian and I often talk about having these mothers of a different generation that raised us that had a real strict approach to social, rules. My mother certainly, certainly did. But they're just things that are so acceptable today. that my eye starts twitching that I can't, I have Bryan: Ha ha. Caroline: a tough time with because I've been taught so differently that it's hard to become comfortable with things. Like I'll give you a, instance, like when children come over to my house and like ask for food, like, my eye starts twitching like, what am I supposed Bryan: Ha ha ha. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: to do? Like, or if my children go to somebody else's house and they're like, hey, can I have something to eat? I'm like, Holy crap, Bryan: Ha ha ha. Caroline: what has just happened? I don't know if anybody else had that situation, but my mother would absolutely slaughter us if we went to somebody else's house and asked them for food. Like if you're playing at somebody's house and you Bryan: yes. Yes. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: go to a parent and ask them to feed you, this is like one of the greatest sins in the world. And you know, Bryan: I would have asked the friend to get it. No, I would never have asked the parent. Caroline: I know, right? And it's no big deal. I mean, those are just old rules. People don't play at people's houses anymore. And people are so like, Bryan: Trade. Caroline: everything's changed. It's not like that. But playing in the neighborhood before, I couldn't even go in somebody else's house. I don't know about y'all. My mother would not Bryan: Well Caroline: allow us to go in doors of anybody else's house unless their mother had called and invited us over. Paloma: Right, yeah, yeah, Yeah, if it was an organized plate eight, that was fine. Bryan: I probably I probably ran in and out, but I'm older than all of y'all combined. Yes, yes. Caroline: Well, we had to play in Paloma: Boy. Caroline: the yard. We had to be outside. if somebody's mother wanted to call and say, I'm going to bring them inside and we're going to do X, Y, and Z, that's fine. But I guess Bryan: Right. Caroline: really just on the imposition line, like you should never impose on anybody else. But that older generation, things are getting a lot softer as we move along, Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: A lot. Paloma: Well, we were at a friend's house for Fourth of July, and the dad grilled burgers for the girls, for the kids. And Marg is the pickiest eater in the world right now. And she said she wanted a cheeseburger. And Caroline: I've raised one. Paloma: I think she thought it was a cheese sandwich, like a grilled cheese. And she was like, It has meat in it, and she didn't want it. And then my friend, the wife, was like That's okay, I'll make you macaroni and cheese. And I was like, no, no, no. Like she will eat the bird. I was like, you take that meat out and you eat that bread and cheese. But my Bryan: Ha ha. Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: sweet friend, like, was like, no, no, she insisted and she made her macaroni and cheese. But I felt so badly putting her, I was like, no, no, I'll I'll make it. Like, I'm so sorry, apologize Bryan: Right. Paloma: profusely, but such is the life of the mother of a picky eater. Caroline: Oh, that's, I mean, I raised a pizza-terian, so I know. So Paloma: Ha ha ha. Caroline: I know. She's old enough, we can shame her now about how Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: picky she is at eating. She tries, but sometimes you can try to introduce your children to food and put it in front of them, but if they won't eat it, then what do you do? So. Bryan: I don't know. I mean I then I find there's more Paloma: You just hope that they'll grow out of it. Bryan: of it. I don't know and I guess they do, but I just had no choice. I guess I just ate about anything that was put down or I had to Caroline: put in front of you. Bryan: or at least choke it down, like Brussels sprouts or something awful. Caroline: I was a picky eater, I spent, I mean, again, another day and time, I spent hours at the kitchen table just by myself in front of a plate of food that I would not eat while my sisters got to go and watch TV. My parents are like, Bryan: Yeah. Caroline: you can sit here until you finish it. And then it ultimately always ended with take one bite and then you can leave. Bryan: And yes. Caroline: Once I finished my iced tea, there was no second glass of tea either. I just had to sit there. Hours, I'm telling you hours. Bryan: Staring at it. Caroline: With things like... Paloma: So you were never you were never hungry enough to just eat it if it didn't appeal to you. Caroline: Honey, these were things that there's no way I was ever gonna put in my mouth without gagging. Like, beets? Paloma: Well that's that's what I say to my husband, because he's always like Fabian's like, if Marg is hungry, like you you just need to stop catering to her, sh 'cause she's always gonna be picky. If she's hungry enough, she'll eat. And I'm like, No, that's not how it works. She's if she decides in her mind that she's not gonna try it, like I don't feel right sending her to bed hungry. Caroline: My parents were 100 % unconcerned with children's appetites. Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: Yes. Caroline: We had things like collard greens or turnip greens. There's not a world in which I'm going to be like, oh, I want to go play. I'm just going to go ahead and eat these. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: Brussels sprouts, pickled beets, sauerkraut. These were all stapled, like a half of a hair with a dollop of mayonnaise on top of it? Nope. Ugh. In no world. Bryan: Yeah, I can do that. Anything with mayonnaise on it. Paloma: You have an aversion to mayonnaise, don't you, Caroline? Caroline: I mean, I can do mayonnaise-y things. I'm not one of these people who's completely out, but am I gonna put it on a sandwich? No. No, I'm not gonna put it on a sandwich. Mm. Bryan: A love affair with it. Paloma: Yeah. Will you eat like chicken salad or tuna salad? Caroline: I'll eat chicken salad, I'm not touching tuna salad with a 10 foot pole. It's gross. I can't, can't. I Bryan: I love it too. I do too. Paloma: Okay. I I like it, yeah. I love a tuna salad sandwich. Caroline: don't even want to be near somebody eating a tuna salad, anything. It's so gross to me. That's something. Bryan: I have a decorative painter who lives by eating just tuna out of cans all day long. And Paloma: Well, that's gross. Bryan: yes, I mean, but he's one of these it's so funny because he's really this built and ripped or whatever Caroline: healthy. Yeah. Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: person, and but he's always eating tuna out of a can without benefit of mayonnaise or anything to break it up. Caroline: It's so gross Bryan: Ha ha ha. Paloma: Goodness. Caroline: to me. is so gross. And out of a can, any kind of fish coming out of a can. I can't, I just can't. I just can't guess. Okay, picking back up. What everybody wants to hear is have such incredible insight about Bunny, because you spent so much time with her. And I... have picked up on that she enjoyed talking about things past and having conversations with you. And also you were there so often and really got to see up close and personally how she lived and how she went about her daily life, which so few people got to even see. think, you know, even Thomas was young. and was in college Bryan: Yes. Caroline: and what have you, he didn't probably have as much insight into her daily life as you did, because Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: you spent so much time there. But when you would visit Bunny, would it be at Oak Spring Farm, or did you go to her other houses? Bryan: Oak Spring was the main Paloma: Okay. Bryan: spot where I would go. And that was the first place I went. And Caroline: And did you stay down the road or did you stay in the house? Bryan: Well, she had in the courtyard of the garden there's a guest house, an internal Caroline: Yeah. Yes. Bryan: guest house, and I had stayed there a time or two, and then I moved over to Spring Hill, which is a house that she built just outside Caroline: for Elisa. Bryan: the property. And she was going to use that kind of as a summer. residence, sort of like we go back to the Marie Antoinette sort of thing, sort of like Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: she did the Hamo or something where she would have a place on the grounds of Versailles to go. And so she built this. It was kind of a strangely built house in that it had a huge bedroom, sitting room, all of that for her upstairs with adjacent rooms for staff in different events. or different accommodations for people to be there, but be out of the way from being right on top of her so she could have her privacy. But she had a vista out to the mountains and it would just be done as kind of a little summer escape if she were not at the Cape or on Nantucket. Caroline: Yeah, and she got older and didn't want to travel so far to be away, Bryan: Right. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: feel away from home. Is that the one that we, the people had just bought it and we toured it? And it did. Bryan: Yes, yes, the Gorums. Michaela. And she's still the she's I think she still has the house. Caroline: It was interesting when we were standing there, the hunt came across the fences, Bryan: Yes. Caroline: which was just amazing Paloma: called Caroline: to see. Bryan: But it had, you know, the funny things we talked about the last time, whatever Bunny found that liked that she liked and worked for her, she did use it throughout because it had those same window systems. Caroline: I did. Bryan: I would stay in what was her bedroom upstairs and it had, you know, the shutters, the screens, whatever, Caroline: screens. Bryan: because she loved and the way it was built, it had the cross breezes blowing straight across. From the windows on either side going straight across to create all of that air flow. Caroline: There were four layers to those windows. There was the window, Bryan: Yes. Caroline: there was the screen, there was the shutter, and then Bryan: An internal shudder. Caroline: the flat solid blackout. Bryan: Mm-hmm. Paloma: Mm. Caroline: Solid shutter. Yeah. I mean, it's like a fortress. Yeah. Bryan: It's thick, yes. And they just would it was completely. And then she had right there she had a a little greenhouse, a small little Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: garden. So everything was bunny esque, just in a little different setting than Oak Spring and what she would feel like she could have as far as just a little escape that would be a mile or two miles from her actual residence. Caroline: And when you were there at Oak Spring, her art collection still in situ or had it been... Yeah, amazing. Bryan: absolutely. Absolutely. She kept that. She let Towards the very end, she let some things go, and she had a piece from a friend of Thomas's father who had painted something that replaced the Van Gogh in the living room. And everybody was like, what a wonderful change that this woman has Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: you Bryan: painted a picture to go where the Van Gogh was. But she did it was all there up until close to the end, and t including in the dining room, the Kentucky Derby Trophy. So that sat on Caroline: wow. Bryan: the sideboard of Paloma: Hmm. Bryan: there. So it was everything was there. And that Caroline: and Bryan: was really the beauty of it feeling so relaxed when you're in the presence of all of that art. Caroline: Right, that there's just a real... Lazy fair. Bryan: Because she would put anything with it. You know, she had a woman whose art that she loved and she had her come and paint on the farm and in Antigua, Madeline Hughes is her name, and Thomas had some of her pieces, and Tori Birch fell in love with her art for because she bought the house in Antigua. Caroline: Yeah. Paloma: Right. Bryan: And it's that she she was almost a Grandma Moses, whom Bunny loved Grandma Moses, and she had a piece or two of hers. But it was just kind of a naive sort of way Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: of painting and doing that she enjoyed. But she mixed those right up with Bonard or Van Gogh or the Dagas, they were all just kind of tossed in there together, which is what made it really Caroline: Amazing. Yeah, charming. Bryan: kind of a knockout thing. Caroline: Now when it's time for lunch or dinner, I want you to just walk me through this. Like, is there somebody like stepping into the library and saying, Ms. Mellon, we have lunch ready and or where are you eating? What are you eating on? Does she have any of her decorative china serving pieces out? What? I mean, just take me through that. What are you eating? Yeah. Bryan: Well, we would you would arrive and you always would wait for her. She was not waiting for you, if it were just you, or she had a wonderful person Marie, and Marie had started as giving her massages and then leading her through yoga and her Pilates. And she introduced and said, This is my handmaid. I thought, well, Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: that's an interesting way to introduce this lovely lady here. And she said, because you know I'm losing my eyesight, so I need a hand. So Marie Caroline: Okay. Bryan: would laugh because Marie was there to offer her a hand, and she was her companion, luncheon companion, etc. And she is the one person today that can still wrap a package. as Bunny would have them wrap because she did not use tape. So she was very precise on how the package had to be in the ribbon and Marie was responsible for a lot of that. So I got to know Marie well because we would lunch often together, Paloma: Can you ex can you back up and explain that that package wrapping to us a little bit? Is it just like Bryan: Well, it was strange. I mean, but she did not everything had to be folded a certain way. I'd have to Paloma: Mm. Bryan: ask I should have asked Marie. But it was on there and the way they folded it in almost like origami or something, that the package Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: was wrapped. There was no tape used. And then she would use a string or grow grain or something like that to tie the package up in the four kind of way all the way around Caroline: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Bryan: that would keep it all together, but you were not pulling tape apart, you could unwrap it and you've got your sheet of wrapping paper. Caroline: I'm obsessed with rapping. We need to find Marie, Maria. We need to find, yeah, invite her on the pod. Bryan: Marie. She still lives on the property. Caroline: really? I wonder if she would go... Crisp. Bryan: Yes. Paloma: What kind paper did she like? Was it always like a solid? Bryan: I'd have Caroline: Crisp. Bryan: to think about that. I mean, we used to laugh Thomas and I still laugh because he and I would often get sort of the same gift and Thomas would call and say, Brian, have you opened it yet? I'd say, Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: No, it's heavy and he said, Well, we may need to plan a trip to Iceland or the North Pole because I think we've got fisherman's sweaters and they're these They were beautiful, but I mean it's like this thick, and you know, we're in a climate change Paloma: Ha ha ha. Bryan: where I don't know that I wear a thin cashmere hardly, but like a big thick fisherman's sweater or something. But she would find something that she loved and would kind of spread it around and do. So I remember some of those more than the actual wrapping, but she would wrap it was more solid. It was not a Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: lot of printed. kinds of Paloma: Mm. Bryan: things than if she could find a solid kind of paper Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: with a ribbon. Caroline: What would bunnies serve for lunch? Like what kind would it be? Like tiny tuna salad? Bryan: Well, I'll s all right. They they would let you I would come for lunch. Even if I were spending the night over somewhere, would be an appointment for lunch. You'd come around to the front door, which is the side door, one of the butlers open the door, let you in. Mrs. Mellon will be down soon. I would be in there alone or Marie would join me, or if she were having Thomas over or Who there were just, you know, occasionally the bishop would there one day for lunch Caroline: Hop in. Bryan: and you would go in and they would offer you and the little bunny bar to mix a little drink or have something to wait while you're waiting for her. Yes, yes. Or, you know, they would do it if you did. But they Caroline: To mix your own, to mix your own. Nice, love it. Or they would do it. Bryan: she was very particular and she kept by her sofa A little bottle of Stoli, one of those little like pint bottles. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: It was sitting by the telephone. And she, because she wanted to be very precise about how much she was getting in her thing, but it was always Caroline: Alcohol. Yeah, sure. Bryan: a bloody Mary. She always loved a bloody Mary for pre-luncheon drink with clamato. And Caroline: Nice. Okay. huh. Bryan: she would have that. And she would put her own little dollop of vodka on it so she would make sure nobody was going to have her overindulged. So she kept her own right Caroline: she is sooner up. Yes. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: there. And when you they would bring in, she had these actual little teak bowls, probably this big cereal bowl size, and Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bryan: they were filled with a mound of crushed that pellet, the little pellet ice that's so Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: marvelous that's just Caroline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: makes a frozen thing. And there would be the most the tea tiniest little Caroline: tongs. Bryan: broccoli and cauliflower all in the ice and so Paloma: for her bloody Mary. Bryan: well and for the guests for our little Paloma: huh. Bryan: pre lunch snack Paloma: Okay. Bryan: and so that's what we would have when if they would have a little sauce. Caroline: Sitting on the ice. Bryan: In the ice. It was all Caroline: and the eyes. Paloma: interesting. Bryan: it was a beautifully done and of course very health conscious and to have your cauliflower. Yes, take Caroline: And then what do you do? Do you just take your fingers and take a piece of broccoli? Bryan: your finger and pull it out of that. There was a mound of that pellet ice. Caroline: Do you now dip it in something or are you just gonna chomp on it? Bryan: Well, you chomp on but she had it like in the center at the top there was a little something set in it, so there was a little su some kind of yogurt sauce or something to dip Caroline: Like dip or something. Nice, okay. Paloma: Mm. Bryan: it in. But it was a p I mean, but just minuscule little things, you know, to make you think of Truman Capote talking about how the rich are very different and about their vegetables 'cause they like the most infinitesim infinitesimal little baby peas and all of these things that they would all compete with. Babe Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: and C Z guest and all of would compete to see who could have the smallest vegetables. Little baby Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: It's a different time. So they're not like Bryan: this and that. So Caroline: pulling out the beluga caviar and putting it on potato chips. They're doing, and are these, are the veg, lays. Honey, I love a plain lays. Bryan: No, no, no, no, no, no. She did love potato chips. There was only one brand, Lay's Potato Chips. That was her go-to. And she would have those in a kind of like a would look like a Costco plastic Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: round little drum, like you would see, Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: in a kitchen, but it kept them nice and fresh. But she Caroline: Fresh. Bryan: did love Lay's potato chips. Caroline: When I was little, we had Charles chips. Anybody remember that? God. And they came in the big canister. They delivered them every week, like Bryan: yes, those were wonderful in the cans. Yes. And Caroline: a can of potato chips. Bryan: they had all sorts of things. They that was wonderful. And then so we Caroline: Mm. Mm. We kept that Charles chip. Bryan: would sit there, we would have a drink, chat, people would gather and do, and then you would have outside of the living room, the hallway, then there was a living room, and then you there was a little I guess people had seen where she had all of that vegetable collection, the porcelain vegetables. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bryan: There was kind of an anteroom or breezeway between the hall and the dining room. And at the other side of that little breezeway that would be angled from the living room, a butler would stand and say, Luncheon is served. Mrs. Mellon, luncheon is served or whatever. And then we would go in. But that's how it was announced outside of the room and they would come up and do that and then we'd go to table. Caroline: Now, is luncheon? I mean, like, what is she serving for luncheon? Bryan: very food like I would like and do it's southern Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: fare she really considered herself a southerner there in Virginia and she would have roast beef she loved popovers Caroline: Mmm, yum. Bryan: we would have a salad and of course she had a dairy which was one of her passions sort of towards the end with her Caroline: Yeah, butter and milk, yum. Bryan: cows and so she had her own butter cheeses and then the local Caroline: Hmm. Bryan: little stores and things would carry her cheeses, the Oak Spring cheese. And she would love going because they would infuse them with different herbs of some kind and do and then the cream that you would pour in your coffee or anything, you know, I'm sure it would make a doctor just Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: quite literally have a heart attack because it was so thick. Caroline: No, but we're back to full fat these days. Bryan: It would just pour. And Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: it was so delicious and just so fresh because it was Paloma: Right. Bryan: all organic. I mean, she grew all the vegetables in Caroline: Yeah, and raw. Bryan: the back. And then she loved we would have fried fish, Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: French fries. One of the two of the butlers loved to fish. And she would say, Well, Ronnie called these fish. Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: this morning or yesterday or something. So the fish would be fresh for the most part. And Thomas laughs because he remembers growing up and it was very much a more formal setting. And he'd be the one that could tell you this. And Paul was a wine connoisseur or onophile or whatever that word would be. And so he had fine vintage, whatever. I don't know anything about wine that gives me a headache. So But Bunny liked wine, a light French wine, or she ended up with cupcake or whatever, you know, something from New Zealand and she la and laughed and Thomas will say my grandmother ended up buying her wine from the IGA grocery store not Caroline: You Paloma: Ha ha ha. Bryan: far from the farm. So that would be, but it'd be just in a little one of those little flat wine glasses on the table. There was no Caroline: True. Bryan: No big stemware for the wine, it was just there. And she loved ice in it, so there was always a little bowl of ice by her place where she could get her ice and put it in her wine. Yes. Caroline: Stop. Paloma: Girl after Caroline's heart. Caroline: I mean, birds of a feather. Bryan: But she always had the ice right by her plate to in order to get put in the wine. Caroline: feel so liberated because my husband is so humiliated by my request for ice whenever I have wine. I don't like hot wine. And if you don't Bryan: No. Caroline: have at least a cube or two with red wine, it's hot. It's not chilled. And if it's rose, Bryan: was she Caroline: I'm putting a whole handful in. Yeah, yeah. Paloma: Mm-hmm. A la piscine, a la piscine. Bryan: Exactly. And she didn't drink red. Hers was always white. I never even remember having any kind of rose or anything there. It was always a white wine Caroline: Okay. Bryan: at lunch. Very light kind of thing. But it was always served, side service, table service, the butlers. Usually there were two, unless there were just two of us in the room. And they really orchestrated it. they were I love people that put effort into the presentation of what they're doing. You could tell Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: that they liked pleasing her because Caroline: Doing it, yeah. Bryan: if she didn't have guests, she would eat with Marie on a tray in the living room or in her bedroom in the later years and do whatever. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: So when they had people over, they could put on a show and Caroline: They enjoyed it. Yeah. Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: do it and twirl the things and hold the baskets of four hundred different kinds of crackers to put for your cheese, the Caroline: So nice. Bryan: all the different cheeses and things like that. But beautiful tablecloth. No, Caroline: Is she serving a cheese course after dinner? Bryan: no, no. It was just there. Kind of where the bread and all would be. Caroline: Okay. Okay. Bryan: She you would just have cheeses with the butters and all of that there. It was not Caroline: Yum. Bryan: a separate course. She would ser we would not eat Really, occasionally a little something first course, but mainly they would have a salad that you just put on the plate with whatever the salad would come and you'd have it and then you'd have the plate come and they would come by with all the different the meat and the vegetables or whatever you might want. Caroline: when you served yourself off of a platter that was held out for you. Nice. Presented. Bryan: Yes. Yes. And then they would make another pass around later. And then for dessert you'd have some kind of berry kind of cobbler you'd do a lot in the winter. Or ice cream and Shelley, who's the cook, they they they had a wonderful chocolate sauce. So Caroline: Mmm. Bryan: she would have this beautiful silver sauce boat, and you'd just ladle all of that chocolate out into the Caroline: Mmm. Yum. Paloma: Love that. Bryan: ice cream so it was done. Beautiful placemats, but the napkins it usually matched. They were embroidered. Some that had that were white with brown and had Rick Rack around it. You know, I love Rick Rack. And the Caroline: Yeah, I do too. Paloma: Mm. So charming. Bryan: with the napkins and the where was a green set. Pretty etched glassware. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: And always the a large cabbage in the middle of the table that she left to Tim Mellon, her stepson, because Tim Caroline: A real cabbage. ceramic. Bryan: was the youngest and he would he and Thomas's father or somebody would pass things back and forth and Bunny said, I'm always saying, watch the cabbage, watch the cabbage. So Tim would tease her about the cabbage being in one piece. So that's what she left him after she Caroline: Thank Bryan: died was the cabbage. So Tim is Caroline: You Bryan: the current owner of the dining room cabbage. Caroline: She has a sense of humor, yeah. Bryan: that is one thing about her that I think people I was reading something that a woman wrote maybe Matt Griswold saying, you know, she could have four Balenciagas. She bought them and put them in every house and did this. But she was really an uninteresting person. And I wanted to get to the writer and say, No, that was a different time. You just don't know what's inter she was a worker, a doer, and not a dilettante. So I found her to be one of the least not interesting people with whom I've ever had any Caroline: Sure. Bryan: conversation or time with. And I just thought that was a very, you know, making it today in an off-putting way about a woman who was born in nineteen ten. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: and had to exist Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: within the strictures of society there, but was also had great intellect and passions for things, self taught, and spent her days doing things. Caroline: Sure. Paloma: Well that's a great segue. What was her relationship like with the swans? And did she care for that kind of life? Because it seems like sure. Bryan: She did not care for that kind of life whatsoever. She thought they were very, very s in a superficial way. And I think part of it was she never felt you know, they were kind of slick and chic and all of that. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: And she had beautiful clothes, but that was not her Mainstay. She was outdoors, unadorned, kind of without makeup or anything. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: She just was a natural kind of person. So she was not spending hours a day getting ready to go to lunch, to return and change clothes and spend hours getting on Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: evening makeup or whatever at the time to go out to something that that night. So Caroline: Sure. Sure. Bryan: I would say with the swans. Well, she really did not like Lee Radzible since she was one of the swans. She thought Babe was sweet, but she felt that well with any that that Babe was socializing a lot and doing and not, you know, when she came to Babe came to learn about gardening from her, Bill Paley sent her over and they were doing all of this and Bunny's saying, Well you're gonna need to give up going to lunches and all of those frivolous things because a garden really requires Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: your attention in doing. So Babe leaves and comes back and Bill Paley s calls to see if they could send a gardener that they had hired because Babe would have a look few too many obligations in the city to s Paloma: Ha ha. Caroline: Babe said, hell no. Bryan: to completely give up life to start digging in the yard. Even though she did create beautiful gardens and was a terrifically stylish woman, as everybody can attest to. But that was not who Bunny was. And I would looked at a letter or something last night to kind of refresh a things. And I think that's why she and I were friends because she liked kind of the southern way of doing and somebody that's as naive as I am or whatever and not On some fast-paced kind of trajectory. So I think she and I found humor in a lot of the same things and thought along the same way philosophically Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: and and had both had fathers that were interested in helping others that were less fortunate in that. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Sure. Bryan: Bunny's fat her father started one of the first public housing projects in Boston. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: And she was terribly proud of the fact of you know, the giving back of things to help other people. Caroline: That was very much in vogue to in that day, so much more during the Kennedy era, that giving back and putting back into government, society, everything, we've kind of lost our way, I think, on that. Yeah. Bryan: That's where you got your feeling of pride and giving to the country. I mean, you look at it today, I mean I'm not one of the things that but at least your friend said you could you could actually talk about something politically. People today spend a lot of time and we all do, of not having to pay too much in taxes for this, that and the other. But Wealthy people used to pay a lot and lot in taxes. Caroline: Good day, John. Paloma: Mm. Bryan: And that's how Eisenhower got the interstate system, you know, at some point. You do and then yes, they were Caroline: Yeah, we're the beneficiaries for sure. Bryan: giving to museums and all of that to make things better for the country. So I think Caroline: Everybody, yeah. Bryan: and I I will forever put Bunny and Paul into that mode of doing of giving things that the Caroline: for the greater. Bryan: world can now go and see and appreciate and share in a museum. And I think there was Caroline: for sure. Bryan: some selflessness to that and a feeling of we want to do this because it helps to make America great. Caroline: think we see a lot of that honestly in the sports stars and not so much in our tech billionaires. But you know, Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: Correct. Caroline: a lot of our sports guys came up from nothing and do a lot to contribute back to communities, to make Bryan: Mm-hmm. Caroline: them better, to give a hand up. We don't see that much of it in the top echelon today. Yeah, boy, they can. Bryan: No, and there used to really be that was Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: outdo each other donating. Nobody's doing that. Bryan: Well, I think that really, if you think about it, that kind of culminated too in the nineteen eighties when Caroline Rome and was married to Henry Kravis. And if you wanted to be something in New York, the place to start was the Metropolitan Museum and the Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: buy in for something was ten million at that time to do. So I mean, museums benefited from people that You know, everybody is always wanting to put down the person trying to move up and do. And now, you know, Caroline Rum would be old guard for sure at this stage of the Caroline: For sure. Bryan: game and did. And so it's just that, you know, it kind of keeps going. But institutions are the ones that benefited from that. cultural institutions with the Astors, with the opera and all of that, anything that went Caroline: for sure. Bryan: on in Bunny and Paul in the National Gallery. Among other Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: things, especially if nobody has been to the museum in Richmond, Richmond Museum of Fine Art, there's a beautiful collection that they left there and Schlumberger pieces and paintings and all. And it's really nicely done. And for Virginia to have that repository of that many wonderful Caroline: Yeah, I'm actually speaking there in October. Bryan: Well, you need to make sure to have a little trip. We'll talk to somebody Caroline: Check it out. Yeah. Bryan: and they can take you through the collection because it's really extraordinary that Virginia has that Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: amount of that there. Caroline: Okay, let me ask you this. I keep seeing on social media a room at Oak Spring that looks like a deep Porto linen store that is at Oak Paloma: Mm. Caroline: Spring Farm. And when we walked through, which was quick and I wasn't paying that much attention, but to if I was seeing every room that was there. But I will say I did see her Porto linens in all the bathrooms, but they were old and worn out, which I was very impressed with. That she's not Bryan: Yes. Caroline: trying to impress you with how new and fresh these Porto linens are, but that these are my Porto linens and they last a long time, you know, and they may not be, the colors may not be fresh or the edges may be frayed. but there's still quality linens, you know? It just really resonated. It's stuck in my brain of the uber wealthy or not. Like the old money doesn't try to impress you with how much new stuff they can put out, okay? But I keep seeing this. I'm like, where was that linen closet with all of these Porto linens? Did you ever see that thing? Bryan: No, no. There were Paloma: Huh. Bryan: some there, but they were not all that looked like the store that I think is not I don't know. I haven't been to the house, but I don't think Caroline: Is it like a Porto linen store or is it meant to suggest this is what her linen closet looked like and you can just take a peek and they've they've bought all these Porto linens or had them dedicated and I mean. Paloma: I would imagine it's the latter and maybe like a curator came in and set it up the way they would have imagined she would have something, but it sounds like Bryan: Right. Paloma: it wasn't rooted in reality. Bryan: And is it in the house or in the mem memory house? I think it's in the memory house, which was which was her Caroline: have no idea. People do these tours of Oak Spring. Yeah. Bryan: last project. That's what kept her alive. It was the memory of her daughter who died. And she was an artist, a rather talented abstract artist. And that was meant for her things, memory house. She had a few things from Robert that Robert Isabel had left her in there. But it was very spare and it was to be kept spare and have Elias' things. That's how it was intended. But I don't know if I haven't been there now. But I've like you, I think I've somebody sent me a picture of all of those. So I don't know where all of that came from, but they do look very new. So her Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: things were well, I mean, she used them for years and years and years. Caroline: Well loved. Yeah. Bryan: And I went I stayed sometimes when I go back there now. There's a wonderful couple that she used to she grew up next door, as next door as you can be to Oaksbring. And I was in her powder room and she had Porto things hanging there. And I said, these are so nice. And she said, Brian, she gave me those at my first wedding in nineteen sixty eight. And I've used them with my now next husband, and it's two thousand whatever. And so There they hang and that's kind of what you're talking about from having been through the house just after before anything had changed. So Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: that's I d I don't know where all of the new was if she Caroline: Well, it's interesting because if you've got all the money in the world that you could ever spend, and always have, you don't have a need to demonstrate to people that you got a lot of money through things that you can put out in front of them, right? Paloma: Right. Bryan: Well, you don't generally she would never have had you go through and Caroline: Gawk at her linens. Sure. Bryan: And how many sheets she had or Paloma: Mm-hmm. Bryan: placemats or whatever. Nothing should be noticed was her dictum, so you know, there there Caroline: Nothing should be noticed. Bryan: is that. Paloma: Hmm. Caroline: Yeah, that's a lot different from that. Okay, how did she meet Givenchy and tell us about their... Bryan: Well, she was dressed like a lot of those ladies. The the number one catourier was Christobal Balenciaga. He was the Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: master and they all used him. And he made an announcement and closed his atelier, I think in nineteen sixty eight. And I mean it sent shock waves through. There was a woman named Mona Bismarck, who they said she took to her bed for days and wouldn't come out of her room because she was not going to to have Caroline: Love this name too, Mona Bismarck. Sounds like a movie character. Bryan: to be able to be dressed. So Bunny, of course, she's a one thing about Bunny, very adaptable when she needed to be and practical. So she, of course, instead of taking to her bed. Guess she took to a plane to figure out what am I gonna do? And Balenciaga will know where I need to go and do. So he said, Bunny, I have the person for you. And she said he walked me just down the street. And she said I was just kind of awestruck because there was Hubert de Givenchy and all of his six sixness, I mean Six six is tall. And Caroline: That's tall. Paloma: Very tall. Bryan: and Regal and I know Thomas, I'm sorry he's not here because he he has really wonderful things from growing up and doing. And he said, Brian, you know, even when I was a little kid and you'd go somewhere and you'd see this guy come in, you knew that this was like some kind of rare movie star or something. He just had that quality and presence of Wow, that is probably one of the nicest looking people I've seen, and he had such style with him. So Bunny was like Balenciaga, I guess. Caroline: Ha Paloma: huh. Bryan: And there's a wonderful picture of her, and she's just kind of looking up at him like this, because she was tall, but Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: you know, five, ten or eleven. Paloma: That's very tall. Bryan: And she was just gazing up at him, and he had incredible taste and So it he made kind of a it was a seamless transition. And the two of them, even though he was seventeen-ish years younger than she, they had fell into a very simpatico kind of relationship and style. They both liked modern, airy, yet architecturally structural. He was called the and she would say he was the architect of her ward. Paloma: Mm. Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: And he would make things that had that kind of feel. And she would talk about feeling she was shy and did not have the greatest self-confidence in the world. You would think that she would, with everybody clamoring for her, but she didn't. And she said, When I put on something by Balenciaga or Givenchy, I would write him a note and say, I love the armor that you protected me Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: in. And the clothes became that armor against the outside world. So I just love that kind of thought of him creating these and it protected Caroline: Mm-hmm. Protection. Bryan: her when she was out because she knew that he had made it everything as flattering for her as could be. And she felt really good and pretty in the things that he created for her. And so they started shopping together. And this was in the late 60s, 68, 69. They get a close relationship and it really blossoms. And she's there, and they are spending time in the south of France hunting for antiques and things. Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: He had a house in the south of France. He had the Jean Chay, the country house Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: outside of Paris, and the house on the Rue de Grenelle in Paris. That is more you've got. Paloma: Mm-hmm. Caroline: And when you compare their interiors, this is so much similarity between the two. Yeah. Bryan: The Brockbird, you know, the their do, and they both liked modern art. And they were t together in that period when Bunny acquired all of those Rothko, which was in around 71 or 72, Caroline: Yeah, you tell us about that, yeah. Bryan: he is he did a lot of influence there too in that Caroline: Mm-hmm. Bryan: modern kind of way. Well, she had Billy Baldwin. He had the Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Bryan: crisp modern Caroline: Sure. Bryan: kind of way of looking. You know, Mario Buwata asked me, Why did she buy such low sofas and things? He said she was taller than I was. And he said, I guess Billy Baldwin, who was five feet tall, helped her with her height of her sofa because they were low. And he said, Why did Paloma: Mm-hmm. Mario is so funny. Caroline: That's funny. Okay. Bryan: she buy that doll furniture kind of furniture? Paloma: Ha ha ha. Bryan: So Caroline: Okay, we're almost out of time, but I want you to tell it, because this is one of my favorite stories that you've told me about Bunny. I thought it was so cute and charming and lovely. Her daughter, Eliza, I guess had become somewhat of a quadriplegic from a car accident. She got run over in New York City, right? Bryan: Yes. I love a southerner to ask me questions. Somewhat of a quadriplegic. Yeah, she was Paloma: The politeness. Bryan: full-on quadriplegic. The first Caroline: Well. Bryan: time I met her, you know, I went in Caroline: I Bryan: and Bunny had her in a room at Oak Spring and she had Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: converted some things. and you know, you go in to see a full on somebody with a breathing tube and all of I was in Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: my late thirties. I'd never seen anybody stretched out looking like they were, you know, in a hospital room. Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Bryan: And so she said, she she'll know that you're here, you know, take her hand and do. It was kind of unsettling. But she smiled and Bunny said, she likes you and did. So anyway, we get through that and Eliza I would go and see her when I would come. And she would. It's funny, she w first of all, she was run over on a dark street in the rain in New York. I guess the spring of ninety nine or the year after it could have been 2000. And she was darting across and some kind of truck, she was in a dark Paloma: gosh. Bryan: raincoat, just ran over her. And you know left. I never got the straight of all of that, but she had no identification. So they take you to Bellevue or public hospital. And by the time she had not shown up, the woman that used to work for the Melons in New York that Bunny wanted to take care of Eliza, Eliza was an artist and she w had a loft kind of downtown. And Milu, who's from Portugal, who ended up running Spring Hill over across the way, they had put out feelers. They wondered what had happened to Eliza. Had anyone seen her? Nobody had. And finally, I don't know how it came about, but got in touch with Bunny, who Called in a top neurosurgeon, He was in the aristocracy of Persia before the fall of the Shah, and he came and they were immediately doing things to reduce the swelling and all, but it was too late. There Caroline: Mm. Bryan: was no help for her. Interestingly, she was married once and her husband was Darry Moore, the famous photographer in England. he was an Earl, the Earl of Dragida. And he and she married and there was a big riff because she wouldn't let Givenchy do the gown, Yves Saint Laurent did the gown and etc. But they had divorced. Caroline: Oof, honey. Rebel. Bryan: She was an artist living life fully. I mean, she evidently had a wonderful sense of humor, and Paul Mellon adored Eliza. I mean he she was like the favorite child, although she wasn't his child, out of the four. He would write her notes and give her little p paintings And so one day for her birthday, Caroline: The story, okay, go ahead. yeah, Bryan: Her birthday was I think it was October the twenty-fifth or twenty-seventh. we're both Scorpios. We're all Scorpios here. And Paloma: All Scorpios here. Caroline: Scorpios. Bryan: so th she Bunny had ramps built and they could bring the wheelchair and she would sit at the table. And, she really couldn't participate in eating or anything, but she'd be there and it was her birthday and we celebrated and did and she said, Eliza just loves champagne. So they opened her feeding tube and we just d dumped a little glass of champagne in for her to celebrate. And she just smiled and did. And I thought, What a wonderful thing to do, just Caroline: Sure. Bryan: to go ahead and it was at first it was kind of Caroline: Give her some champagne. Bryan: nervous, but then she just became part of the Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: things there and anything that you could see that she could smile, And Bunny really I don't guess you could ever say she was mother of the year to anyone, Caroline: Yeah. Bryan: but she it came back in and that's what she was gonna do was protect her child there until the end. And Caroline: Sure. Bryan: And really she t after Eliza died, I thought that Bunny would be she was ninety eight at the time, that she would really be undone by the loss of this. And she said, Brian, you know, I'll see her sooner than later, and now I don't have to think about her being left here vulnerable without Caroline: worry of what will happen. Yeah, sure. Paloma: Yeah. Bryan: my being in charge of looking after her. So I thought, you know, I've taken Caroline: think that's, yeah. Bryan: that kind of thought process and thought, you know, that really did work out for the best for both of them to for Paloma: Right. Bryan: that to happen. So I think she tried and did the best she could of somebody of her station at the time that she lived. Caroline: Yeah. Well, I love that she gave Eliza champagne in her feeding tube. I mean, that's just delightful to Bryan: Ha ha. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: me. Like, so she can participate in the party and, you know, at the end of the day, if she is a paraplegic, I mean, you know, maybe a little bit of champagne in the bubbly is like the highlight of Bryan: I know it just Caroline: the, you know, whatever the week, the year. Yeah. Bryan: Well, it would have been. So it was she during that time, I mean, you would come in and you'd hear this music and there would be a man playing a flute over there because music would, you know, trigger something, or she would have an artist come in and be painting something to you know, something to stimulate her all the time. It was a very Caroline: Yeah, that's nice. Bryan: creative and intensive care. Caroline: care for her. Yeah. Bryan: of doing for that and every day. Caroline: Sure. Bryan: I mean, Bunny quit traveling. I mean her she had advanced age, but she would go to the Cape for a day. She'd go to Nantucket for two nights. She would go to Antigua for two I mean, she would not go anywhere and leave Eliza those last years before Eliza died in two thousand eight. So it she was hands on in taking care of her in that. Yes. Caroline: caring for her. That's wonderful. Paloma: Yeah. Caroline: Well, Brian, it's been so lovely having you here. It's delightful. Absolutely Bryan: gosh, and I just rattled on again. I thought I was gonna be better this time. Haha. Paloma: No, you're wonderful. Caroline: wonderful. I love being with you. I know you've got a big trip. You're heading out to Italy later this week. Thank you for squeezing us in. Bryan: Yes, yes. Paloma: Yes. Bryan: absolutely. I loved it always. Caroline: Okay, well, Paloma: Well great to be with you both. Caroline: wonderful. Yes, absolutely. I love it always Bryan: Did I? Caroline: and I look forward to the next time we can get together, which I don't think we have anything scheduled. We need to do that. That's all right. I know. Paloma: Gotta get something on the calendar. Yes. I know it. Bryan: Absolutely. I mean the summer will be gone. Can you believe it's gonna be August? I know it Caroline: don't remind me. Don't remind me. Okay, well, safe travels. Love you both. Paloma: Love you. Bryan: Okay, bye.