speaker-0: Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Hello and welcome to the Creative Chapel podcast. I'm your host, Chris Mack, and today I'm joined by Chris Francis, an award-winning commercial director responsible for two Super Bowl commercials within the past two years, along with countless other spots that you're probably familiar with, working with Thai industry brands, and also his work consists of ⁓ short documentaries. Chris, welcome to Creative Chapel.

speaker-1: Cool. Thanks for having me, Chris.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ glad we were able to do this. ⁓ we've been connected through the San Diego Faith and Film Network that our friend Joel McGuinty started. And so it's been cool just to like encounter your work, experience your work and and like I said ⁓ in the intro, being like kind of familiar with you know, if anyone's chronically online and watches YouTube videos, ⁓ they've probably come across your commercials, ⁓ or of course they've watched the Super Bowl. And so actually before even getting involved with Faith and Film, you are the reason why I got involved with Faith and Film. 'Cause I had found you in like a ⁓ San Diego kind of media directory and ⁓ I think somehow I found out that you were like a Christian too, just by like researching. ⁓ and so I just DM'd you on Instagram and and you told me about faith and film and so ⁓ I just now remembered that even before doing all my notes and stuff, but ⁓ So it's cool to to like sit down and have this conversation.

speaker-1: That's awesome. I'm glad to hear it. Yeah. I've ⁓ I've I've always had kind of a poor memory, but ⁓ after ⁓ having two little kids now too, I think my memory's fallen off a cliff. So I forgot that too. So thanks for reminding me. I remember it now though. That's awesome.

speaker-0: ⁓ and so I would say ⁓ our friendship is still like kinda growing and we're still kinda getting to know each other a little bit. And so I would love to know more about your your testimony and your journey of faith and how that might ⁓ interweave with your your filmmaking journey.

speaker-1: Totally cool. Yeah. Yeah, so I probably have I don't know, somewhat unique story in that ⁓ my dad's ⁓ pastor and has been a pastor my entire life. so I don't really have a ⁓ I don't really have a cool or dramatic testimony of any kind. I just kinda grew up in the church and you know, walking with the Lord. It's kind of the only thing that I've ever known, to be honest. So, ⁓ you know, I'm very, very grateful and very fortunate. ⁓ you know, growing up I thought that was totally normal. And then the older I get, the more I realize how abnormal that is to just be blessed with ⁓ the opportunity to grow up in a a really loving Christian home where ⁓ both my mom and dad ⁓ just really j genuine authentic believers, like no No hype, no faking, no nothing. Like you know, growing up they were never like legalistic or anything like that. So, ⁓ you know, nobody's perfect obviously, but yeah, just ⁓ just growing up and I just kind of always enjoyed going to church to be honest. So, I think my dad started his own church when I was like two or three, so I hardly have any memories of never being at my dad's church. ⁓ So yeah, so I just kinda grew up in the church. never really, you know, walked away from the Lord. there's certainly times like, you know, in high school and college where it was, you know, definitely like periods of just being kind of lukewarm and not really having like a really deep relationship on my own. and not really like you know, really got deeper and kinda became my own, like as I after I moved out after college and you know was a young adult and started you know, making some some new friends and you know, being out here in San Diego during that season and just really kinda walked into a just a relationship with the Lord and just had some really sweet seasons with him. But ⁓ that's not to say everything was like smooth through through life, you know. It's like, you know, you you always have wrong beliefs, you know, that kind of shape your view of God that's like kind of inaccurate that you kinda have to I don't know, work through or you just get, you know, a more clear re revelation ⁓ that I'm just really thankful that I've gotten over the years. So, you know, there's little stuff that seeps in when you're little little that like, I don't know, I don't remember anybody teaching me that, you know, God was mad at me or like that I've gotta like, you know, not mess up or he's gonna be angry and But somehow, you know, that stuff like creeps in and you're like So, you know, when like you're a middle school or a high school and something's going bad in your life, you're like, God, why are you doing this to me? You know, it's like you just think everything is like Job or something, like anytime you're sick or something, it's like, ⁓ this is God trying to get my attention. ⁓ Luckily I kinda however whatever religious word you want to use, delivered out of that as an adult and just kinda coming into a revelation of just the goodness of God and How sweet of a father he is and stuff like that. So ⁓ but yeah, so I just kinda grew up in the church. ⁓ since it was my dad's church, I was like kind of always behind the scenes, ⁓ kinda had a front row look at what it what's life what's life like in the church, because our family life pretty much was the church. ⁓ so I remember even when I was little, I would do ⁓ the transparencies in worship. So if the audience can imagine this, there was a time when there wasn't words on the screen. For the worship songs and no computers. And so it was like literally just like a little projector with transparency pages that, you know, you would maybe see way back in college back in the day. And so the lyrics would be printed and then I would, you know, put ⁓ on and then be I'd have to be paying attention and be like, All right, verse one is done and here's the chorus. So I would do that, and then when we finally got PowerPoint, like in middle school or high school, sometimes I'd be up in the sound room. ⁓ running the PowerPoint slides during worship. ⁓ so ⁓ yeah. And then in ⁓ in high school I got my first video camera, so I stopped using my mom's video camera. ⁓ when I graduated high school, I got that with my graduation money. And then all through college I was helping my cousin make videos for his youth group. So that's you know, so I've kinda like been behind the scenes of the church most of my life. So

speaker-0: Nice. Yeah, I kinda we're we're s similar in that that we're both PKs. I grew up ⁓ my dad was a youth pastor for most of my like childhood and then in middle school he felt the call to like plant church in Metro Detroit. And so we did that from when I was in sixth grade to my senior year of high school. ⁓ and so yeah, you know, it's being a k PK who like didn't wild out is kinda funny 'cause people had like an expectation that you kinda did. ⁓ but then you're just like My parents were cool, they were chill, they weren't like domineering and didn't you know weren't too strict, even though maybe the world thinks they were strict. I felt like I had a lot of freedom. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, it's and it's also funny like how the church kinda ends up being an incubator for creative talents in ways that maybe it didn't even intend. ⁓ my dad was like always a super creative guy, even you know, I think being a youth pastor you kinda have to be. So he he was the type that kinda like ventured into like experimenting with hell houses, ⁓ even though they're not as big in in Metro Detroit, ⁓ as maybe like the South, I think. But ⁓ you know, doing kinda like I guess it would be like a revelation house, like the book of Revelation, ⁓ going through things like that. Doing that as a youth group, he would do these like plays that he would write, ⁓ for the youth group to perform during like Halloween and stuff. So ⁓ and so in that way it's like I kinda learned storytelling from my dad in

speaker-1: What's

speaker-0: Even outside of scripture in the Bible, which is also just in and of itself gearing us up for understanding storytelling, understanding ⁓ just how impactful stories are and and knowing Jesus' use of parables. But ⁓ yeah, it's cool that we we kinda like have a similar ⁓ touch point there. ⁓ were you always ⁓ did you grow up in San Diego or did you grow up elsewhere?

speaker-1: No, yeah, I grew up in Indiana. So I was grew up pretty much in Indianapolis for most of my life. And then we moved to Plainfield, which is just like a suburb right outside of Indianapolis by the airport. so I we moved there like in middle school and then after college, ⁓ I moved out to San Diego. ⁓ and so I was out in San Diego for eighteen years and then just recently moved ⁓ just south of Nashville a couple of months ago.

speaker-0: So you move out here, and you I don't know how the dynamic is now with ⁓ being moved to Tennessee, but you are a director in house with raindrop agency, which is behind so many viral campaigns. ⁓ again, if you're like chronically online, you definitely know raindrops work. ⁓ did you get involved with raindrop?

speaker-1: How do you Yeah, so so I was running my own production company out of a studio in San Diego, ⁓ that my my buddy Jeff owned. It's called Skylight Studios and and that's still around, that's like in the Mission Gorge area. And at the time ⁓ a buddy of mine, Tom, was running his video production business. Like we were both renting office space out of his ⁓ studio and around that time, not shortly after, ⁓ Tom ⁓ started he came in house at raindrop. ⁓ he's good friends with the the founders of the company. and they had really started to ⁓ kinda like have some success with video. And I think he was he directed, I believe, the very first like Doctor Squatch video that went viral for Raindrop. Mm-hmm. ⁓ so he was like he had to like kind of close down his businesses. So there was like a six month transition period where he was like part-time at raindrop, but he was phasing out of his w ⁓ video businesses and then going full time at raindrop. So I c I kinda got to be like near that whole transition and we would chat, you know, in the hallways and And then like some of the early raindrop stuff, they would rent Skylight Studios to shoot at. So I'd pop my head in and so I kinda got a first hand look at that transition. and then about a year after that was during COVID, during the pandemic. And ⁓ I think they were running into issues where they were having key crew members getting sick like the day before a shoot. And so I kind of became like the substitute teacher for them. Like just the on call. started out just as the cinematographer, so if you know, if somebody got sick, I'd get the call the day before, like, Hey, can you come in and shoot this video? And so I got to see how they worked and ⁓ thought it was really cool and then and then eventually Tom was like, I'm realizing like I don't have a we don't have a backup for like a director, like if something happens to me or if we get, you know, too busy, ⁓ he's like, Would you be interested in shadowing ⁓ me on a production just to see how we work and see if it's something you would like to do as a contractor. And I did that and I was like, ⁓ man, this is great. 'Cause before then I was if I back up a little bit, my production company that I've had since I moved to San Diego, but I was I had been doing that full time for about seven years and I had been producing, kinda doing everything, you know, producing, shooting, directing, editing. ⁓ and then I started contracting the editing out. ⁓ And I just got burnt out on producing, to be honest. So those last two years, I was like, I'm only gonna DP. That's all I want to do is just DP for hire. but then when I got the chance to shadow, I was like, ooh. I was like, I think I could I think I like directing better than DP. I was like, I could get into this. ⁓ and then ⁓ around that time they were hiring a couple of like ⁓ video crew, like ⁓ You know, we call ⁓ production text, but it's kinda like in house gaffer grip kind of person. And then a camera operator and my brother in law was actually saw the posting and was asking me about it. And I was really talking up the company to him 'cause he was thinking about applying for one of the roles. And I was like, you know what? I was like, I'd I would never work for anybody ever again 'cause I like I just want to work for myself. I just enjoy the freedom too much. Mm-hmm. I was like, if I was ever to work for somebody, I was like Raindrop would be one of the few places I would actually consider. ⁓ and there's as I'm like talking it out loud, I forget if he said something or Krista, my wife said something, or if it was just a thought I had. But it was just kinda like, Huh, yeah, why don't I work there? And and and at the time they actually had an onset director role open. ⁓ and so I reached out to Tom and was like, Hey, I think I might be interested in this job and he was like, ⁓ really? I didn't No, you would want to come in full time and so ⁓ yeah, we worked it out and I just hopped in full time and that was kind of like right on the right at the beginning of really building up the team. I think before then I think they might have had one and a half video teams in s house and then like shortly after, you know, a couple months after I got hired, it was like we had three fully staffed out video teams internally. So ⁓ I got very fortunate. ⁓ if you want us ⁓ a good biblical reference, ⁓ it's ki kinda like that verse that's like, you know, we're we're harv or we're ⁓ we're reaping things that we didn't harvest. And that's how it feels, like at Raindrop, like Tom and Michelle and a bunch of and Jock the s the founder and a bunch of other people, they did all the all the hardly hard early work and then they like kind of started blowing blowing up because of the doctor squatch stuff, and then I just came in right there. So it was like a right on the ascent up. I just kinda like kinda hopped on board and, you know, went up with them. So I feel I feel very fortunate to ⁓ still be at Raindrop and to have came in when I did. So ⁓ sometimes it feels probably a little unfair that I didn't I didn't have to be there in the early days and really, you know, till the ground and do a lot of the the hard groundwork. I had to come in right as things were really getting smooth. So

speaker-0: Yeah, and it's kinda funny, like the the being at the ri right place at the right time, is kind of consistent with a lot of like filmmakers' journeys, like whether it be in kind of like the Hollywood system or just commercial work or or content creation, like being at the right place at the right time and ⁓ being prepared for that. you know, it's the kinda like that quote of like luck is preparation plus opportunity or something like that. Yeah. ⁓ and it's kinda like you being there, ⁓ just opened the door for you and your your skill level made the impression already. Which is like interesting that you were around during the COVID days of of raindrop, and and them doing stuff around then 'cause you produced a a documentary of your experience getting covid with you and your wife ⁓ during that time. Was that Was that documentary, ⁓ did that leave an impression on Raindrop at all? And you got some like kind of major placement with that too, of like news sources picking you up and doing the story and that premiering at ⁓ did that play at the San Diego Film Festival?

speaker-1: I so it I think it did, but it was also like the COVID year, so they did the festival online. So it wasn't in person. So it was kind of like, ⁓ man. So yeah, that was an interesting journey. to be honestly, to be honest, I'm kind of fuzzy on the timeline then. I don't know that it really had any effect on ⁓ getting the opportunity at raindrop. but it was ⁓ Yeah, it was kind of like a fun project and honestly it gave me something to do 'cause that was pre raindrop, so I was I didn't have a lot going on and, you know, a lot of the client work dried up. I was doing I was helping a church transition to like online virtual church. So that was kind of my only steady gig was ⁓ producing the sermon video every week for a church, which ⁓ very thankful for 'cause that definitely provided at a time that was pretty pretty meager. and then yeah My wife and then shortly after ⁓ me got COVID, it was literally the day that the state shut down and Krista actually closed her office down, ⁓ 'cause she was the first case. and so yeah, I just filmed a lot with ⁓ I filmed a lot with my iPhone, but then I just I had somebody from the studio bring all my gear. I like literally like popped the trunk of my SUV. It was like, Hey, can you like deliver me my computer, my My Drovo hard drives, my camera, my lights. I was like, you know, I'm kinda I'm gonna just document our journey 'cause we ended up ⁓ volunteering, I think, over thirty times to do all the tests. 'Cause even then like it was like they hardly had any even tests. So they just needed people that had confirmed cases so they could like test the p false positives of their new testing stuff. So we did like You know, we were just constantly going to like hospitals and doctors offices and stuff like that. And so we just kinda said yes to everything 'cause we were like, you know, fortunate that we didn't have like a a life threatening case. ⁓ but it was just like, Yeah, let's make the best of this, we'll volunteer. And then as the filmmaker, I was like, you know, I'm kind of a little bit of an opportunist, but I was like, I'm just gonna film this because all of production is shut down. This is all anybody is talking about. Everybody has so many questions. I'm just gonna document the journey. Cause nobody in our extended network had had it. So everybody was like, you know, how is it? Are you alive? You know, like what's Yeah. And Krista had a really bad case of ⁓ I forget the term, but she lost her taste and smell for months. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and so she was going through additional testing for that. So I just documented the whole thing and ⁓ turned it into a doc. And that was like really fun. to make. Obviously it wasn't fun being sick, but it was it was fun to make. ⁓ and it felt like it was like kind of a a positive, optimistic outlook on it. Like there's a lot of I think there's a lot of funny parts in it. ⁓ obviously we weren't gravely ill, ⁓ but at the time it just kind of seemed like everything out there was just fear based. and so I was like, you know, if we can encourage people s in in any way, ⁓ you know, we'll do it. ⁓ So it was cool and it's like on you know, it was on Amazon Prime, it still is. I I wouldn't recommend watching it now 'cause it's not very interesting 'cause it's like, you know.

speaker-0: Yeah, there's a bit of like ⁓ pandemic fatigue right after getting out of it. So

speaker-1: But I don't I don't even want to look at it again.

speaker-0: But it's cool it's a cool journey and your success with it. kind of ⁓ a making lemonade out of lemons situation, ⁓ and again kinda ⁓ the turning what could be a negative experience into an opportunity. and I think you know, more creatives could probably use that. I feel like there are some Creatives who really lean into their their hardships and their kind of like dark side, even within the church and and using that as their place of inspiration, but also that can be a place that ⁓ makes them stall out ⁓ or burn out and then ⁓ they fail to see the opportunities that that are in front of them. I just talked to a a buddy of mine who he was gonna be ⁓ film editor for a a feature length film being shot in Michigan. and he was like gearing up ready to go and then ⁓ they called him like the last second was like we have to like push it back so we won't be filming this month and he had like stopped working on one of his personal projects and and focused solely on like doing this project. And he had said that he was getting kinda like burnt out on his personal one, so it he was trying to just step back from it. But I I watched it and just encouraged him like it's like You're so close to being done and like this is almost an opportunity that the the feature got pushed back that you can just like hash out your your personal project. And then you have something to show 'cause there's like a few named talent from like The Walking Dead on this film. It's like you have something to show those people that could open more doors for you when you get there. And so Totally. ⁓ yeah, it's just cool to to take life's hardships and turn it into something that can actually like be useful in useful to yourself, useful to others. ⁓ to ⁓ kind of like pivot back into your work at Raindrop, ⁓ you've you've kind of like branded yourself as a a comedic director and leaning into comedy, which you know, again, I feel like Christians are like there's this like very stoic stoic s ⁓ mentality and like stoicism I I guess philosophy moving around Christianity right now. ⁓ and so it feels like levity and comedy ⁓ aren't as appreciated, I guess, from a creative standpoint. How did you kinda like find that niche within Raindrop and ⁓ yeah, h when it comes to like pitching projects, are you like integral to the writing process and the the concepts? ⁓ I'd love to like know more about that process.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's kinda wild how it all worked out 'cause I mean, growing up I was always I don't want to say a class clown, 'cause when I think of a class clown I think of somebody that's like zany and you know, like attention seeking. But I was just kind of always ⁓ like a jokester and like all growing up. I w I mean I was no stranger to the principal's office at all. in grade school and middle school. You know, I grew up going to Christian school too, which ⁓ probably played into it a little bit. so it's like, you know, my life is like church, Christian school. ⁓ you know, you think about like the eighties and nineties, there's a lot of like Christian things in the the nineties that's ⁓ pretty easy to make fun of. ⁓ so I was just kind of always loved humor. ⁓ you know, I remember middle school, like just being obsessed with Seinfeld.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: in high school, once my older sister moved out and I got her room and and also her TV in her room, I would stay up every night and watch ⁓ the first half of Letterman, ⁓ and just love Dave Letterman and just the the co like his brand of comedy, like the self deprecation and just also the randomness and just how stuff like It's like I mean, he was on C B S and he was like prime time, but a lot of his comedy and like the bits they would do, I would say was like not mainstream. They're just kind of very like you could tell that he thought it was really funny. And I j and I've just always loved that and like ⁓ this probably sounds weird, but I I la I probably make myself laugh as as much as anything else. ⁓ so I just always loved laughing and cracking jokes and making fun of stuff and ⁓ my mind is always like kind of reactionary. Like even though at work, sometimes I have to remind myself to like chill out in the in the chat because like if somebody says something, it just immediately triggers some sort of reference or like something that I think would be like a funny spin on it. ⁓ so that's just kind of my brain is kind of wired. So like and raindrop I just kinda lucked into it 'cause like Raindrop just mostly does comedy and I I don't I don't even know that they set out to do that. But their early writers were stand up comedians and then like even the Doctor Squatch ad with James Schrader who's in that, he's a stand up comedian and he

speaker-0: That's the gum with like the long hair and the beard.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So I think he wrote the first one with our team and then yeah, like a lot of our early hires before I was there were ki stand up comedians. ⁓ and just online, you know, especially like YouTube, you know, like humor is really effective. ⁓ 'cause at the end of the day you're trying to sell a product or service. So it is like, you know, it is a commercial. It's not just strict purely entertainment, but like they've just found that comedy is a great a great way to kinda People kinda put their guards down because it's like, ⁓ I'm gonna watch this 'cause this is actually funny. And then by in the process of being entertained, you learn about the product. ⁓ so honestly like I didn't have any grid for like I wanna do comedic stuff. ⁓ 'cause I'd done previous to that, previous to working freelance, I worked at a big church here in San Diego for five years on the video team and ⁓ very outreach oriented, it was super cool. But we're you know, I was doing all sorts of gritty stuff, like, you know, documentaries inside of the state prison, you know, going out with ⁓ you know, being out with the homeless outside for like going out like twice a week for months, out on the streets. ⁓ you know, really crazy and powerful and awesome testimonies of, you know, former strippers and prostitutes and drug addicts and you know, gangbangers and you know, just ⁓ I've done a lot of videos for like rehab centers, like just done a lot of like really powerful and gritty work. ⁓ but I think by the end of it I was like, all right, I think I'm ready to do s something different. And ⁓ and I mean that used to be my vibe too. Like in college and postcollege it was like I would just love anything that was raw and gritty and ⁓ you know, whether it was documentaries or narrative T V or movies and stuff, that's just kind of like exploring yeah, kinda that darker side of life. I just really like was drawn to like the cinematography and the storytelling. ⁓ but then I kinda grew I kinda grew out of that and then Yeah, I just kinda grew out of it and then it just it just so happened that you know, raindrop kind of you know, by oz by proximity, you know, the fact that Tom was across the hallway from me, it's like that was my inn and you know I had like a somewhat similar story of how I even got to the church that I was working at, but it's like you can see now, you can see that God was like really paving a way for me to just go right in and it's like, Man, I didn't even have to really try hard, you know, it really was what you're talking about, where it's like preparation meets opportunity. And it was like I'd I'd been really diligent in whatever I was doing in the previous season that kind of like prepared me for the next season. So this this job now, like directing comedy commercials is like my dream job just 'cause as a kid it was like, you know, my my parents have a photo of me. with my microphone, they got me a little microphone and a little speaker, s the Fisher price set, I think, when I was like, I don't even know, four. Mm-hmm. And I'm doing like little stand up comedy in front of the whole family. And it's like I'm telling jokes that don't make sense 'cause I'm a four year old and everybody's laughing 'cause they think it's hilarious. and it's just like, you know it's like now I get to do that as a for a living, but I also don't have the pressure of being on camera. Like I get the ⁓ To work with really great writers and talent and to answer your question. ⁓ I don't write the scripts like our our copy team and creative directors, they come up with the concepts and the scripts, but my role is director of content. So I do direct you know, it varies four to seven commercial campaigns a year or so. ⁓ kind of fluctuates. but I'm involved in most other productions that we do. And so I'm usually in on the concept and review meetings and the script review meetings for every for almost everything that we do video wise. ⁓ and I do give feedback. So like I'm I'm kind of in there as the directorial presence in pre-production, like early on because we do our production in-house. So me and the director of production, Michelle, we're in those meetings early just to kind of make sure that it's like within budget because we already had we usually already have a budget by the time they're concepting because like then it'll eventually get passed off to one of the guys that I manage that's ⁓ one of our onset directors or one of our contractor onset directors. And then so it's like kind of like I'm kind of involved in the early process to make sure that they're getting set up for success and that it's not something that they, you know, don't have the resources to actually achieve, you know. So Yeah.

speaker-0: Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright, back to the show. So going from ⁓ kind of like church creative, and I do want to touch on that a little bit. more later of your work within the the church and some of those pieces that you worked on with like the prison and the street ministry. ⁓ but have you found it at all challenging being a Christian within kinda this, you know, top tier agency space of maybe getting any projects that kinda like you mentioned when you first moved to San Diego of like weren't really lining up conviction wise. ⁓ or on on top of ⁓ the rest of the country just thinking all of California is Hollywood. ⁓ I think there's also this kind of perception that like because of even looking at just LA, ⁓ people would be like, ⁓ that's just like a den of sin. And then people could probably like think about that in other parts of California as well, except maybe in Reading where like Bethel is the big news, but ⁓ but yeah, did you have any ⁓ kind of like struggles or convictions working with Within raindrop, did you find challenging at all as a Christian?

speaker-1: Yeah, it's a good question. ⁓ I think I'm fortunate that Raindrop has a really good culture. It's a very like respectful place and they do, you know, even though it's not like a Christian company, they do kinda have some guiding principles of the types of commercials or types of products we will or won't promote. ⁓ so we're not just taking everything that comes in the door, you know. You know, there are at the end of the day it is advertising agency and ⁓ you know, I do work with, you know, creatives like all over the board and so obviously like you know, it's maybe stereotypical, but like entertainment and you know, advertising probably skews can skew, you know, kind of a in an opposite direction of of the church and and certain things. So th sometimes there are challenges and there are you know, there are things that I have directed that have had you know, crass jokes and stuff like that where it's like, you know, I didn't I didn't write it and if it was up to me I w you know wouldn't have put it in there. But ⁓ I haven't done I haven't had to direct anything that I've like been like, man, I don't you know, I'm I'm not gonna do this. ⁓ and there are certain things. Like, you know, knock on wood, ⁓ luckily in five years I haven't experienced that, but there are certain things where I would ⁓ you know, tell my boss and be like, Hey, I I don't feel comfortable, you know, directing this content. but luckily that hasn't happened. But yeah, I mean that's certainly been something that ⁓ you know, there's times where I'm like, you know, man, I'm really proud of this work and I think it's really funny. ⁓ But I'm like, I don't want to show my parents this one. You know? And even if you look at my website, I have a couple I have a couple on there, you know, that's like ⁓ you know, is a little ⁓ you know, edgy. You wouldn't you wouldn't look at it and be like, ⁓ this this guy's a Christian that directed this. ⁓ but I also think like My personal bent is a little bit more towards being a Daniel, so to speak, of like These commercials are gonna get made anyways. And so would it be better that I am like you know, I'm offended, I'm too holy, I can't touch this, somebody else do it, and have somebody that doesn't have my perspective and outlook on life do it? Or it's like can I still serve the Lord and serve the people around me well by like really honoring everybody throughout the process? And trying to even honor the work that the rest of the team has worked so hard on and that the client wants to make, you know, can I do that for them? ⁓ and so that's kind of like that's usually kind of my default is I'm I'm a little bit more like that. Like I would rather stay in connection and stay in relationship with all the people I work with and the clients and stuff like that. Cause I don't think not that I'm trying to like influence them, but I think Sometimes like when you separate yourself, like you don't have any influence. Like I'm I remember somebody saying, ⁓ even as specifically about LA and Hollywood, it's like you can't influence something that you don't love. so at the end of the day, it's like there are certain things that I would separate myself from and be like, I'm I'm not comfortable with this. But I think overall, ⁓ I would rather I'd rather still be there in the midst and be, you know, be a light and just keep that relationship going with with people and stuff like that. 'Cause I think ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. I just think there's a lot of grace. I think the Lord has a lot of grace and patience with us. ⁓ and I'm I know if ⁓ you know, one of my favorite verses is that his kindness leads us to repentance. ⁓ so I don't think anybody's gonna like take a step closer to the Lord if I'm like this is harsh you know, this is sinful or this is bad and I'm not gonna be a part of it. ⁓ but like I said, there are certain things that I wouldn't there are certain things I I wouldn't do, but ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, I was on the the job hunt last year, ⁓ and I came across a a law firm that was hiring around San Diego and you've probably seen their billboards. ⁓ I didn't know this was the company, but ⁓ they were like div divorce attorneys.

speaker-1: Uh-huh.

speaker-0: And so there's like they have billboards all over San Diego that's like Nick's her and like basically like promoting divorce. And so in the interview they were like, Yeah, we lean into like this edgier kind of comedy, like how would you feel about that? And I was just straight up I like, Yeah, to be honest, like there is a little bit of like conviction I have with kinda like just promoting divorce. It's kinda weird. ⁓ and so obviously I didn't get that job, but ⁓ you know, yeah, there's there's just certain lines and boundaries that

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Obviously I think every Christian has, but I think likewise ⁓ the Christians that ⁓ just have a a heart for evangelism, a heart for ⁓ being a light at where they're planted is so important. ⁓ I think about I don't know if you've read this book called Art and Faith by ⁓ Makado Fujimara. but it's a great book. I think a lot a lot of Christian creatives ⁓ gravitate towards the book and and to Fujimara. ⁓ hopefully I'm pronouncing his name right, but ⁓ in that he talks about how artists are kind of like border stalkers, that they're on the edges of of cultures, seeing kind of like what else is out there and almost being mediators between other cultures and other worlds and and bringing influences together to make something that that reaches both in and out. ⁓ it's been a while since I've I've read the book and have kind of came across that concept, but in a similar light, I think it ⁓ to your point of like being just a light within that agency and being on set and and the people that you work with, ⁓ you know, I think it it totally makes sense and is a natural place for Christian creatives to be in ⁓ in places that maybe the the average person in the pew or even maybe just church ministry might be, you know, a little we ⁓ you know ⁓ concerned about. I think the the Christian creative has more of a heart and a love for ⁓ not only the people in it, but like what the work is and how that's important to to everyone that's a part of it, ⁓ and how that influences everyone. ⁓ and so from there, ⁓ how d how did you feel seeing one of your spots in the Super Bowl for the first time?

speaker-1: Yeah, that was that was a lot of fun. That was probably the most nervous I've been ⁓ watching a Super Bowl because it was like we were like, when is it gonna play? And I think like they'd given us a breakdown of like, you know, different cities of went what time it was gonna be playing and ⁓ and it didn't play when they th had told us it was, so it was like ⁓ it was like every commercial break I was like, I think I had my iPads set up and my phone set up and like so another camera and so it was like every time it was like third down, I'd be like, all right, we were at a friend's house that had kids and stuff. We're like, all right, it's third down. Or it's like all right, the incomplete pass. They're gonna go to a timeout. Everybody hit record so we could get like reaction shots and nice and stuff like that. And ⁓ but it was like an hour and a half after the time and so it was like I was starting to like I was like, I have to pee so bad, but I'm afraid to use the bathroom because like if I miss the commercial and then finally it played right before halftime. ⁓ But that was cool. But it's funny the difference a year makes when we're out and about at a restaurant. We see right now that it's springtime, we see the Spruce Super Bowl commercial from two years ago, like all the time. Or my son, my son recognizes it and he's like, Dad, Spruce. so it is fun to like after kind of like I don't want to say toiling, but after just so many like decades almost of working on stuff that nobody's seen. it is like kind of nice now to be like, you know, if I'm meeting a stranger, like I met a stranger at my niece's graduation open house and we were chatting and he was asking what I was doing and I said and he was like, ⁓ like and it and I was like, Yeah, I was like, ⁓ I was like even ⁓ he's like, you know, what have you worked on? And I was like, have you seen like Spruce commercial, like the dogs, like having the pool party, and he's like, ⁓ yeah. And I'm like he's like, You made that? And I'm like, Yeah. And he's like, Bro, he's like, that is so funny. He didn't use those exact words, but I won't I won't say what he said on here, but but ⁓ so that part is kinda cool to be like, ⁓ great, like there's actually like people that I can say something I've worked on And people are like, ⁓ I know that. And it kinda used to be like I because I did a lot of the Doctor Squatch stuff for years. But that would be like if you were a young guy, you knew if you were like eighteen to thirty guy, you knew what it was. But if it was ⁓ outside of that, people are like, huh? And I was like, okay, I guess it's not as famous as I thought. Yeah.

speaker-0: Which is still like, you know, ⁓ a pretty ⁓ you know, good audience to to reach into. Like I said, I was I was pretty familiar with your work. ⁓ and then, you know, the the cool thing about the Super Bowl is like people there's a good portion of people who are tuning in for the Super Bowl that are just watching it for the commercials. That like they're watching it just to see what you made, which is pretty cool. ⁓ and you know, have have you seen any of your ⁓ your spots that you did, the two of on like any like lists of like top top Super Bowl ads at all? Have you seen those lists or do you like kinda try to avoid those for just like I don't know, maybe mental health stuff or anything?

speaker-1: Yeah, no, we l we definitely look out for it. ⁓ I think two years ago we made a list or two. But the because of the product is a weed killer and the Super Bowl's in February, ⁓ you know, most of the country is still pretty cold and it's not like weed killing season. Yeah. So they run it ⁓ they run it regionally so it doesn't play in every market. it plays like ⁓ it plays a lot in the south. ⁓ so like kind of all the south and then just kind of like select big cities, you know, like on the West Coast too. So I don't think it I don't think it plays in New York or LA. so I think that probably also like excludes it from a lot of those lists. 'Cause ⁓ like if you look on like the official whatever YouTube channel that has like all the Super Bowl commercials, like we're on there. But I think because it's not Playing in those two major media markets, that probably excludes it from a lot of those lists, but

speaker-0: ⁓ kind of pivoting back into your your history and your work, you know, as I was like even just like researching more about you when I first made contact a couple of years ago, ⁓ I came across a I guess an asset that you've made for church video production. ⁓ that is I have it written down here somewhere, but the church film school. ⁓ is a is a website and kinda like a skill development resource that you've made for churches. ⁓ how did that project come about and ⁓ you know have you gotten like a lot of good feedback and testimonies from it? Have you seen the resource being used well? Because you also have a pretty good following on YouTube as well. Did it did it stem out of that or those two like separate kind of ⁓ entities?

speaker-1: Yeah, those are connected. So yeah, when I was freelancing ⁓ when I left my job at the church ⁓ ⁓ I don't know, that was like what, ten years ago or something, eleven years ago. I was kinda like, Man, I have all these like skills and experience making videos for churches. ⁓ 'cause I would do it freelance too. And it like so I was like, okay, I was making videos for my cousin's little youth group, and then I was making videos for this huge mega church in San Diego that had a lot of resources. But I was freelancing for other churches too, ⁓ around town and and some travel jobs too. And I was like, I have this unique skill set, and I kind of feel like this chapter of my life is is done. Like I kinda actually want to phase out of doing church work. And I I when I left the church, I was really wanting to go into the marketplace. Cause I'm like, man, I grew up in the church my whole life, basically from zero to you know, zero to thirty. It was basically behind the scenes of a church and it was like, I wanna get out of the greenhouse and and get out into the world, quote unquote. And see what that looks like, you know, living living out my life and my faith just, you know, out in the industry. But I was like, man, I have all this like knowledge and experience. I would love to just like, you know, kind of pay it forward. ⁓ so when I was freelance I was like I was also true like you know, it was kind of a leap of faith, so I didn't have a lot of work lined up, so things were kinda slow. So I was like I was like maybe I can make an online course and maybe I could charge, you know, like a small amount for it. So that was one of my big projects that I worked on for a couple months when I was ⁓ first freelance. ⁓ and then I made some I kind of revamped and re-recorded a lot of the course like a couple years later. and then I started doing the YouTube channel and I would write free stuff, like I'd do bl really in-depth like blog posts and project breakdowns and then I would turn those into YouTube videos. And so actually funny, right before raindrop, I was actually trying to build that up to be like my main source of income. So I was doing that and that was going really well. And then but right around that time was When I got the opportunity with Raindrop, and I was just kind of like, it was kind of funny because I was like, I'm really loving this, but then it was like, you can direct commercials. And I was like, I'd rather I would rather do this. Essentially big picture. I was like, I'm gonna give back to the community because I was like, I didn't have anything like this growing up. I just kind of had to figure it out myself and even like the members of my video team ⁓ at the church. That was kind of the first time we had all worked at a church. So we were kind of figuring things out. And I was like, I'd love to pay it forward. And for right now, it's a the course now is f free. ⁓ and it's been free for a while. ⁓ but I was like, I just want I just want it to be available to people. And some of the technical stuff is a little outdated now just because of some of the ⁓ updates, but I actually made that course to be like technology agnostic, like it's more about the strategy and the soft skills and the that kind of thing. It's less like, you know, here's how to get shallowed up the field on your camera. It's more like how do you get like awesome interview responses from your documentary subject. So

speaker-0: And so church film school is still a resource that's available. ⁓ you said it's free right now, right? So ⁓ for anyone that is watching that is looking for a resource that maybe your church is trying to get more video heavy or even you're just somebody who is interested in video, ⁓ you know, we'll link that resource in the description below so you can you can find it and and see Chris's work. ⁓ so that's a good point to ⁓ just Exploring your thoughts on creatives in the church. I'd love to to hear more of your meditations on that, your experiences with that, and ⁓ even some some things that both creatives and the church need to understand about each other in terms of making something that blesses each other. 'Cause sometimes the dynamic is one side doesn't understand the other, I think. And so I don't know if you have specific thoughts about that exactly, but I'd love to just get your general thoughts on on creativ creatives in the church.

speaker-1: Totally. Yeah, I think, you know, as I'm a little older now and definitely way more mature than I was when I worked out of church, ⁓ I think it comes down I think the biggest ⁓ I think the biggest tension point that I see and hear even still from my friends that are still doing church video stuff or I have so many friends that came out of that world, like so many of my like peers I would say like in the filmmaking industry all came up making videos for churches. and I think I think the common thread is like expectations. So I think working at a church is kind of a I don't want to say weird, but it's kind of a it is kind of a weird thing because it's like it's it's a job, you know, 'cause the the church is the the is the body of Christ. you know, working at a church is it's really a local nonprofit is what it is. You know, it's not the church, it's part of the church. but I think where I've seen unfortunately a lot of church creatives, was some that I I even worked with, ⁓ get really jaded or hurt or when their time comes to an end, it's like they end on bad terms. It's like unfortunately it's like I even know people that are like kind of walked away from the faith and, you know, kind of don't want anything to do with it, partially or mostly based on their experience working at a church. And I think for me, it comes back to two things. It's like one, expectations I think Sometimes the church probably has I don't want to say unfair, but I'll just say un Un uneducated sounds bad too, but like uneducated ex like expectations of what they think the creatives should be doing. And then I think a lot of times the creatives that work out of church also have ⁓ unrealistic expectations and maybe a lack of understanding of why they're there. I think because like the church is so relational. that that can kind of muddy the waters. The the big church that I worked at was very evangelistic, very outreach oriented, which is w absolutely incredible. But the flip side of that is there's kind of always an unspoken, you know the harder we work, the more souls we save. And like because it was evangelistic, it was very much like life or death, heaven and hell and and not like in a fire and brimstone way at at all, but just a very real like ⁓ you know, our head pastor, there's a really like there's a fire lit under him to like try to help and, you know, introduce the Lord to as many people as possible, which is incredible. But the flip side of that is like whether spoken or unspoken, that could lead to like just grinding people out. It's like expectations of working nights and weekends and ⁓ you know, there's just always there's always people that need Jesus. So there's no there's no like you know, it's a little bit like ⁓ the old adage of like, you know, postmen, why do they go postal? It's because like the mail just keeps coming every day. It's like there's always another Sunday. There's no like We did this big project, now we can chill for a little bit. It's like you still gotta have video announcements for next Sunday or or whatever. so I think sometimes creatives are like, I'm super creative, like I wanna do all sorts of artistic stuff, artistic expressions of the Lord, et cetera, et cetera. But most churches I feel like I could be wrong here, but most churches I feel like want a media team to really be a communications team. It's more like getting It's more like, you know, marketing in a sense of like communicating, like let's get like our worship nights. We need a promo for the worship night. So let's capture a cool looking worship night and then let me, you know, let's film the pasture or the worship pastor, invite people 'cause ultimately the goal is to get people to come in and worship and experience the presence of God and worship. But for the creative, especially the young creative, it might be like, I want to make like a dope you know, elevation music looking thing, you know, which and it's like when you can marry those, those are fantastic. ⁓ but it might be like, you know, I want to do this super creative promo for a sermon series, but it's like it's so avant garde that the general church audience doesn't understand it. And it's like so I think I think there can be some misaligned expectations of like You know, and especially with online now, it's like you can see what every church is doing. So it's like very easy to look at a large church that has like a high value for the arts, do really creative stuff. ⁓ but the odds are like your local church, like at the end of the day too, like your salary is getting paid by people sitting in the congregation tithing. and I think art should be valued. But at the same time, Farmer Joe in in row ten, if his money that is donated to the church should really be going towards, ⁓ you know, you spending fifty hours on this like uber creative ⁓ experimental art film. That's you know what I mean? It's like there's there's a there's a tension there. So I think at the end of the day it just kinda comes to expectations. ⁓ I think some people creatives come in thinking like b ⁓ because this is the church and because it's highly relational and I probably have relationships with people at the church, like I can just kinda come in and do my do my thing. ⁓ because we're not trying to like sell a product or something like that. but I think seeing it for what it is and For most people, myself included, it's a it's a season and it's an incredible environment to be in. It's a very for me it was like paid film school. It's like the the church congregation is literally the warmest audience you're ever gonna get. Like, you know, if you try a a comedic video, it could be cheesy and not that good. It's gonna get the most laughs on a Sunday 'cause it's like very like family. and it's like you're not you know, now when we're doing ads we call our intros scroll stopping, 'cause it's like if you're on your feed, you've got to grab their attention and a second and a half or they're gonna scroll past, but we're a church congregation, they where else are they gonna go? You know? They're like they're in the chairs, they're gonna watch what however good or bad it is. So I think it's a great opportunity to grow, a great place to flourish, but I think at the end of the day, ⁓ you're the steward of your own heart. And I think I think there's too many people that can come in as a creative and be like I'm all in on the church and then it doesn't meet expectations or leader let you down or you have a bad ⁓ you know a bad riff with a manager or just a bad experience and you let that kind of taint your vision of the Lord and what Christianity and what church means and stuff like that. So I would say to anybody I mean I don't I don't really like to give advice. This is kind of more my observations because but I'd say You know, when you're at a ch your church working at a church, you've still got to steward your own relationship. ⁓ to the point where that doesn't mean you need to believe everything that your pastor or your church believes when you don't have to like agree with the direction of like what we're doing with our video or art or whatever. ⁓ and just kind of like separating that of like, you know, if I'm not getting creatively fulfilled in my job, I can still do passion projects. or do your own thing. Or you know, procure your own relationship with the Lord and making sure that that's you know like a sweet space to be in. Cause I think if you're flourishing internally with the Lord, that's gonna affect like how you're receiving stuff. Cause it it is challenging. I don't want to say that it's not, you know. You might have a manager that's like doesn't know anything about video. And the reason they're your manager, it's like their background experience was they were a missionary in Russia for ten years and they knew the associate pastor and the associate pastor knew this guy was very high character and had good leadership skills. And it's like, all right, you can be the creative pastor. You know what I mean? And it's like it's frustrating 'cause you're like, all right, this guy's like the one saying yes to no all of my ideas and he doesn't have, you know, one tenth of the knowledge or experience or creative taste that I have and so all that stuff is very real. ⁓ but I think it's just You know, at the end of the day it is a job, it's an incredible job. But I think when the season's over, you know, I think it's it's great to like notice it ahead of time. ⁓ like don't wait until the pain is too high to where you're like, I can't take this anymore. Be like, you know. And obviously you've got to talk with the Lord and kind of, you know, talk that through. 'Cause there might be times where the Lord really wants you to just like submit and honor your leadership and go through a season of learning to like humble yourself and lay down your personal ambitions. ⁓ but then there also might be s seasons where it's like, hey, if I'm not like thriving and I'm not enthusiastic about this work, the Lord probably is actually preparing somebody else to step into this that is gonna bring in that passion ⁓ and desire. And so like the longer that's how I felt at the church. I was like I was like the longer I stay here I'm actually I'm sitting in somebody else's job. And like, you know, like when I got into my job it was 'cause a few people left. I think a couple of people had got fired, a couple of people left, and it perfectly just paved the way for me to come in and it was totally the right I was the right person at the right season. And I felt at the end of my time I was like, I could keep doing this 'cause I've learned how to do it, but I like, I'm on autopilot right now. And I'm just creatively just kinda like not into it. I want to try something else. The needs of the church are changing. They're wanting shorter communications video where I was wanting to do more longer artistic narrative stuff. And so I was like, I think I just need to leave because some there's somebody else that God has prepared for this role. And I I need to just not think that like I'm, you know, I have to be here as long as I can, you know.

speaker-0: If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the Printing Ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed that we're planning to launch later this summer. If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create, with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description. And if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business, or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the PrintingOx. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the Creative Chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. Alright, back to the show. Yeah, and that's that's such an important like piece of wisdom of just knowing what ⁓ obviously following what the Holy Spirit is is leading you to do, but ⁓ having a mindset of like if I'm frustrated here, then somebody else can probably ⁓ thrive in what they're wanting with the expect expectations that they have. I think for for church leadership, ⁓ and if for any church creatives that are listening, Yeah, there's this popular kind of like Hollywood adage of like one for them, one for me, which is kinda like I'll do one in the studio system under like Warner Brothers or Paramount or whatever, and then I'll do one independent project. ⁓ and a lot of like future film directors kind of focus into that. And I think a san a similar type of principle could be really effective within the church, both for the creative and the church, ⁓ church leadership to either pitch to each other. It doesn't necessarily have to be like exact one for one. It could be, you know, obviously you are doing a job, so you would want to, you know, execute the expectations that your employer has. ⁓ if you know you're working within the four walls of the church. But definitely like kind of giving a pitch of being like, hey, I have some creative ideas that I feel very passionate about, that I think are exciting, that could generate excitement and interest within the congregation. and feed them and minister to them, but it's a little avant garde, it's a little out there, it's a little different, you know, would you be willing if I like f you know, out of all the responsibilities that I have that are church announcement videos and social media posts and reels and and highlight videos and baptism videos and all these things, if we can throw in just at least one creative work a month that's like you know, I'll pitch it so I you ca you guys can give the green light. And like be on board with it and you know, it's it's one thing if it's like there's a difference between like, ⁓ it's a little weird, and I don't understand it, and being like, ⁓ this just isn't good or healthy for the church or biblical or anything. Like those are two separate things. And so if you're able to pitch your staff leadership to be like, ⁓ I wanna do something weird a little outside the box, if you can just give me the grace to execute that, ⁓ and ultimately you'll have the final say on it. But I think it just bring life to me as a creative working within this space as well as, you know, touch the hearts and minister to hearts that are here in a unique way. ⁓ I think that's a great way to approach if you're if you're finding struggling if you're finding burnout is on the horizon potentially or you're feeling frustration between you and your church staff, ⁓ might be a good pitch to make. And likewise if, you know, you're the random pastor that might be listening to this 'cause you're also creative, ⁓ and you have a creative team under you, you know, being giving them the grace the grace to es execute something that's on their heart. That's like, hey what, you know, pick their brain, pick their mind to find out what the Lord is inspiring within them, within their baptized imagination. ⁓ because I do feel like another thing that ⁓ that book, Art and Faith, ⁓ pointed out was ⁓ this very American ⁓ I guess just westernized kind of hustle culture vibe of like utilitarian pragmaticism. Like everything has to be of utility, everything has to be pragmatic. And I feel like that can so like infiltrate the church creative. Like the church creative is just a tool for the execution of communication, like you said, versus like this is a place to minister from. This is a place that God can speak uniquely and and penetrate the heart ⁓ from a ⁓ a perspective that we haven't tapped into. And so letting the the creatives in your church find that and pray about that and meditate on where God wants to lead from in that space, you know, I think it's super important. ⁓ and so just kinda like an aside to any to any pastors or or church creatives out there. ⁓ there are options and so you can pitch, but

speaker-1: I'm glad you said that actually because that is a great point. And also it made me it reminded me too that like what makes working at a church so awesome and so unique, especially if you're kind of younger in your creative career, is there's not that many places that you could come in, you know, as a whatever, nineteen year old, twenty-one year old, twenty-four year old, whatever. ⁓ And just like you said, have the ear of the pastor or the decision maker and be like, I have this idea that's a little like out of the box, but here's what I'm thinking, and getting the green light on something like that. Because I think I remember even early in my church days, we'd come up with ideas and stuff, and then as we grew, we had a creative director, and so he was kind of leading a lot of that stuff too. But like out in the quote unquote real world, like that doesn't really happen. You know, 'cause it's ⁓ there's always this like the grass is greener. Like when you're at the church, you're like, ⁓ man, if I was only out at an agency, we could be doing all sorts of cool stuff or whatever, but you know Like I'm whatever, twenty some years into my career, you know what I'm doing at Raindrop? I'm not being like, Hey, I've got this cool idea for an ad for a a client. You know, it's like they're open to ideas and stuff, but that's not my role, you know. It's like it's like, okay, yeah, we have a department of experts that do that and like your job is to, you know, be more in production and and it's like I I get the opportunity and I have a lot of favor and raindrop's great 'cause they listen But it's like at a church you could like, you know, as a twenty two year old, you could be pitching like creative ideas of like, Hey, I've been reading this in scripture, praying about it really inspired me to do something on this story in scripture. And I think if we did a little short film, like you said, I think it could really minister to our congregation and and reach their hearts in a way that like a teaching can't, you know. That's what the beauty of film. It's like visual, it's music. There's other people that you kind of project your own ⁓ ⁓ you know, emotions or backstories on and it's like a way to get to the heart that like, you know, reading the scripture or preaching a sermon maybe can. ⁓ so like when you if you're in that season, really cherish it. Because like, you know, when that season's over, you might be going somewhere else where you don't have a lot of agency of what you're making, you know. But like the church is a unique spot where you really can get ⁓ a lot of creative ideas out there and you know, I'm I'm really proud of some of the work or a lot of the work we did and even some of my first comedy spots was at the church and it was like I don't even know how that got approved, but I got to write and direct a couple of comedic spots and they were my favorite projects I ever did there and it's like You know, it's just funny promos for community groups. and you know, I don't I don't know how it got approved, but it did. And ⁓ you know, so there are opportunities that you get to make some really cool stuff and have a lot of in a lot more influence that you wouldn't normally have in a in a larger organization outside of the church.

speaker-0: And you have to be diligent to like follow through on the rest of your responsibilities, right? Like you can't you can't let the church announcements and social media posts go to the wayside pursuing this kind of like personal creative endeavor within the church. So you have to, you know, you have to keep your game up and and be on top of things and execute well. ⁓ and like to touch on a point too that you had brought up ⁓ about like does the does you know farmer Brown who's in the congregation that's funding ministries, you know, is his and that's ultimately, you know, funding your salary is that person's resources really should go to an avant gar avant garde project or or something that, you know, they're not even passionate about. Maybe their their passion is kids min ministry or or outreach or whatever. ⁓ I think that that dynamic is important to to think about. ⁓ but also I think it's important to think creatively just in general and to find the person in the church to commission the work that you want to make. and that, you know, there there is going to be someone in the church who who loves you, who cares about what you want to make and the things that God has put on your heart. and that they will like they will say, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna dedicate my tithe to the creative ⁓ work in this church because I value it and I think it's important. you know, and so I would encourage you again, if if you're in that struggling place, to find that person in the church to and and to not like you know, start up some like weird underground ground swell of like ⁓ you know these are like your funders or anything 'cause ultimately like the body is the body and needs all the resources that it needs to do everything that's trying to do. But ⁓ you know, I think it's important that like find the people who are passionate about creatives in the church. and and if your pastor is a a little on the fence about something, just say like, hey I I talked to this member of the church. We were just talk talking naturally, organically and this thing came up and and they're passionate about it. And ⁓ You know, just giving them basically the data to support the need, and support what God has put on your heart, I think is is important 'cause ⁓ I think it's God commissions artists. We see that in the old testament. and so there are people in the congregation who c can commission your work as well. And to kind of touch this on a little bit of your arena, Chris, ⁓ Somebody that I'm trying to get on the show here very soon is a gentleman called Bill McKendry, who is behind the Jesus Gets Us campaigns, which is shared space within the Super Bowl spots with you. And so I I'm I'm kind of connected with him through film school and I went to film school with his son. ⁓ and I'm looking at his book over here, Do More Good. ⁓ and and they say they they ran into similar problems of like should we

speaker-1: But

speaker-0: Should we be investing all this money? Like there was all these comments online of like, should we be investing money as you know Christians into a big Super Bowl ad ⁓ where like we could go feed the poor or go do these ⁓ other extravagant work? and the thing is, like, kind of going back to what you said of like this ad money is going to be used in some way. Like this ad is going to be made, or these people. are funding what they're passionate about. Ultimately just to say there will be people who might nay say the creative work ⁓ because they're so ⁓ focused on the utility and the practicality of the specific boxes of church ministry, ⁓ that they fail to see the creative work that has been done within the four walls of the church. And I think that's just a general problem of Protestant ⁓ execution of church. You know, we see that more better executed in Orthodox ⁓ and even in Catholic ⁓ extensions of the church. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I think that's great point. Yeah, 'cause like I mean, you th think about back to like, you Sistine Chapel and s things like that. It's like a lot of times throughout history the church was actually commissioning art because there's a really high value for it. And you know, it's like you look at those places, it's like people thousands of years later are still traveling all over the world to go in there and just be in awe of like you know, this piece of art that took, you know, however many years it took to make commissioned by the church. So So I'm totally on I totally agree with you too. And so like my earlier comment about expectations is more just the reality of probably the Western church that you are working for is looking to hire you to help them with communications. And so I think as you grow in your relationship, you can, you know, push and lead and try to like, can't we do more art expression? ⁓ because I think the church should value that. but ⁓ Yeah, no, I think it's great. And I think those campaigns are great too. Like I know a lot of people who are like, wow, I can't believe they're spending all this money. But it's like at the end of the day, God gives different people, different callings, different passions. you know, it's like you could you know, the the the government gives out a lot of welfare and a lot of food for people and stuff like that, and it's like That's g it's like for people that need it, it it's good that they get that, but at the same time, you know You couldn't just run a country by just every dollar going out to feed everybody. You know what I mean? Like there's still other things that need to be done and maybe that's kind of a bad a bad comp. But I think it to me, I personally feel like it's a valuable, you know, if that costs if that spot costs five, six, seven, eight million bucks. Like I'm not offended at all that the fact that like they were able to raise that money and spend it because it's like or you know, whatever, like a hundred and thirty million people are watching this and for sixty seconds. seconds they're gonna, you know, potentially have an encounter with God and just hear truth, you know, and it's like God's word doesn't return void. So it's like God's word being shared to people in a way that they that can connect with them emotionally, you know, is never a bad investment.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I've kind of ragged on practicality and utilitarian ⁓ thought, but for the aspiring filmmaker who is looking to get into commercial work, ⁓ or even just wants to be working within the church, ⁓ and and having, you know, their client kind of be the church. ⁓ do you have any practical tips for for people who are ⁓ Stepping into church work specifically, and also do you have any practical tips for those trying to transition out of the church into the marketplace?

speaker-1: Yeah, I think for church world, I'm pretty biased as you can tell from my course about just the power of testimonies. ⁓ you know, in Revelation it talks about, you know, we overcome the enemy by the blood of the Lamb and the power of our testimony. So I think like, you know, as somebody that's wanting to get into church world, it's like I think there's just always going to be an extremely high value on sharing testimonies. ⁓ you know, you're probably gonna hear that from the pulpit, from In a sermon, stories, announcements during the offering mess. You know, it's like we have testimonies everywhere. And I think there's a reason for that. It's like it's giving It's giving honor ⁓ to God, but it's also like really powerful just to tell the story of what God's done in somebody's life. ⁓ it's a good it's always a good encouragement and reminder that even like if you're not feeling it that day or that week or that season of life that God is moving in people's lives and really rekindles hope to not give up in whatever situation they're in. So I would say for me, like I feel like testimonies, testimonials, short documentaries, that kind of stuff, recreations, however, you know, whatever artistic expression ⁓ and whatever resources you have to make it, I think I think that's so important. So certainly there's other types of videos to make and church announcements and short films and stuff, but to me I think Testimonials is like the sweet spot of that art storytelling communications, because it's like those are videos that in and of itself can minister to anybody, whether they go to your church or not. ⁓ that can really be the ministry, but then also it's like a great ⁓ thing to build community and build up your local congregation with. ⁓ so I would say that. you know, shameless plug, you can take my course. It's free by the way. but I would say that for church is huge. And then I'd say for transitioning out of the church, for me personally, when I transitioned out of the church, like ninety percent of my work for the first two or three years outside of the church was from relationships that I had developed in that church. And one a lot of that was like a former boss that I had that went on and worked at a nonprofit that worked with a lot of other churches. And because I had kinda gained a lot of trust with him over the years and proved myself to be a good storyteller and to be responsible. ⁓ kinda like what you're talking about, the luck thing, like opportunity meets preparation. It's like he's meeting all these people and he's like, we need a this or that or video and he's like, ⁓ I know a guy. so that really honestly kept me afloat financially. Even as even when I was like, I don't want to do church stuff anymore. But I it's like I needed that kind of like off-ramp ⁓ of doing one-off projects for other churches to before I could build up my business elsewhere. so I would say and I I really don't want to ever look at somebody as a resource. so don't like I don't want people to look at people like, ⁓ this could person could be like you know, the funder of my next job or whatever. But I would say like wherever you're at, whether you're at a church or somewhere else, being diligent, doing great work, but also just like taking time to develop relationships with people is so important because that's probably where your work is going to come in the next couple of years. You know, they're going to go on to another job or maybe they know somebody that needs a video and they're like, ⁓ I know somebody that I know, like and trust. and knows that they do good work and that's an easy way to get into other stuff that you don't have experience in 'cause it's like maybe at the church you're just doing documentaries and now these people need a promo for their small business and they're valuing trust over a reel because they probably can't afford the person that's got the great commercial reel. But ⁓ that's a great way to like transition. and and that's kinda how it is in commercial work too. Like it's I do a lot of comedies. For me to like do a dramatic commercial would probably have to come through a relationship because I don't have commercials on my reel that would be like, Here's a really heartfelt touching commercial. So nobody's gonna hire me on that, but they'll hire me based on trust and relationship. So I would say wherever you're at, whether it's a church, nonprofit, ministry or it's just a different job, You know, being a person of integrity, doing good work, and ⁓ developing relationships is probably gonna lead to future work and you know, there's no guarantees in life and I feel very fortunate with where I've landed, but you know, I didn't I didn't s I didn't know who Raindrop was, so it wasn't like I set out and be like, I wanna I have a five year plan to go direct comedies at Raindrop. It was just like I just tried to be faithful at every stage that I was at and then get to know the people that were around me and that just naturally led to ⁓ where I'm at now.

speaker-0: Yeah. Nice. Yeah, I think that's all super helpful and super ⁓ important to keep in mind. ⁓ and so I got like three just kind of rapid fire questions to end the show with. ⁓ first of all, like what is on the horizon for you? What would you like to work on that is kind of like a future goal? ⁓ you know, is there maybe a a transition t into other lanes of filmmaking? Do you have any passion projects on the on the horizon?

speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ it's funny, since I've been at Raindrop I haven't done any freelance work. I did one freelance cinematography job like three years ago. And I'm just starting to kinda like get that itch to do some some other stuff, so This coming week I'm I'll be in San Diego doing a commercial all week ⁓ that I'm really excited about. ⁓ and then Friday ⁓ we had the day off, so I'm gonna do a passion project, like a spec commercial. and that will be ⁓ kind of an opportunity to do something a little bit more in my tone. Cause like my work at Raindrop, I'm very fortunate that I align with a lot of it, but it's like I don't write it. I don't come with the ideas, I don't come up the concepts, I don't write the jokes, so I just kinda direct what's there. And so I'm I'm I've written and directed a spec commercial that I'm gonna try to pitch to the end client. that's more of a traditional comedic ⁓ it's like a car insurance commercial. So you you know, you think a progressive, geico, all state, those kind of things. It's something more in that realm. You know, we're gonna shoot an anamorphic, which we rarely do at raindrop 'cause you've got to do vertical deliverables and So just something that's a little bit more in my tone. ⁓ and I think that's part of like a a long term just not transition, but just kind of building up a little bit more ⁓ of stuff that's a little bit more in my own voice to kind of build up my my reel with stuff that I think better more accurately represents the work that I love doing and want to do more of. ⁓ but then also like I think at some point I would love to direct commercials my whole rest of my life. ⁓ I love ⁓ But I also want to st I can feel the inside me like kind of the yearning to start working towards just original content like entertainment, whether that's ⁓ a feature or shorts or a streaming series and I think never before has that been more realistic, you know, even look at like You know, the guild through Angel Studios, you know, like stuff like that where it's like and it's like getting to a place where now that I've been a been around it long enough and I would encourage people to like if you're really passionate about it and you have talent, just stick with it because over time you will grow, but you'll also be meeting people. So it's weird now. It's like I know multiple people that are producing or writing shows for Angel Studios. ⁓ it's like we've we've through happenstance at Raindrop we've hired a few actors that are disciples on the chosen. So it's like I've got to meet them on set and you know I've worked with actors that are on T V shows now and stuff like that. So it's just like you never you never know who you're gonna meet. But it's like as you just stay in longer, you're just over time you're gonna run into that. So to me it's like, you know, I'm forty two, about to be forty-three, I feel like, you know, in my mind, maybe by the time I'm fifty, I would love to be doing like just entertainment, like ⁓ you know, a shows or movies like full time, and then also directing commercials like you know, throughout the year. But Yeah, so I've got that coming up. ⁓ I'll probably most likely be doing another Super Bowl commercial for Spruce. ⁓ that'll probably be later in like September. ⁓ so I've been very fortunate that I've gotten to do two with them and they seem to be liking what we're doing, so they wanna do it again. So ⁓ hopefully that goes well. yeah, so those are like kind of up thing upcoming things that I'm excited about.

speaker-0: Nice. Yeah, I would I would definitely love to see ⁓ a Chris Francis original film. ⁓ I mean just seeing some of your your personal ⁓ passion projects was really cool in my research ⁓ and being on your website and seeing all that. So ⁓ definitely would be, you know first to buy a ticket there. ⁓ and then ⁓ yeah what kind of like second to last question, what is inspiring

speaker-1: Awesome. Cool. Well thank you.

speaker-0: inspiring you right now? ⁓ what are you reading, watching, listening to, that's kind of like giving you life and and inspiration?

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good question. A few things. just very recently, I went and saw backrooms last week by myself. Like a after the kids went down, I went and saw like the ten forty showing. ⁓ and I was just really inspired that like some of these young like YouTubers have like turned into like feature film and I I'm just so like I didn't know anything about the film and I don't watch horror films which spoiler alert it's not really a horror film. It's more of a more of a sci fi a what I call a non sci fi sci fi, which I love. But I was just really inspired by like, man, seeing younger people that have a creative vision and then also them getting commissioned and trusted and supported to make something fresh, you know, like so many things are just sequels or reboots and stuff like that. So ⁓ just really creative and you know, I like A twenty-four too. I I like I like films that are maybe not like huge commercial, ⁓ but it's so cool to see it have so much success. So been really inspired by that. And then I don't really have a lot of time to watch shows or movies if I'm being honest, because I've got a one year old and a four year old. but real recently I just started watching the bear. ⁓ I don't know if you've seen that. ⁓ I just started season two, which isn't doesn't seem nearly as good as season one, but season one was so good. ⁓ and it was just like so much tension and like conflict. But I was kind of honestly really inspired 'cause it's, you know, chefs and it's like they're so dedicated to their craft and you're constantly seeing them waking up early in the morning and ⁓ you know, kind of suffering for their art but being kind of obsessed by it and You know, certainly in the show, you know, it's not in ⁓ the healthiest way. But like through Osmosis it's kinda like got me like pumped to be like, Yeah, when you really love something like you can really go for it and become like a master at it and just love every you know, the craft of it and just kinda get lost in it. And I'm just kind of feeling that of like I think that's all kind of helped leading me towards like passion projects and my my next I'm gonna do this spec and then I th feel like my next thing is probably gonna be like a short film or something that's like so ⁓ yeah so that's that's inspiring me right now, for sure.

speaker-0: Yeah, I feel like the bear really has a great ⁓ kind of like metaphor for just the average creative of being like passionate and driven for something that you kinda like suffer for ⁓ in your art. ⁓ I think there's certain art forms that are like are way more accessible these days and that you don't really have to do a whole lot of suffering for and not to say like the suffering that you do just in life that inspires your work ⁓ isn't there. But ⁓ I'd say like especially within filmmaking, it's such a grind sometimes.

speaker-1: Totally. I just listened to a podcast too. It was a parenting podcast, but it was like this guy that's like a brain he's a psychiatrist, like a Christian psychiatrist that's also like a brain doctor. And he was just talking about like dopamine and stuff like that. And he was saying that like dopamine that isn't worked for and I'm I'm gonna butcher this. I don't know if he said like that's what causes like addiction or like problems or like bad feedback loops, but it was basically like we weren't designed to experience a lot of dopamine without working for it. And it was like like God's I mean, obviously, you know, sometimes you just you know, somebody c cracks an unexpected joke and it's hilarious and you get dopamine for it or you just take the kids out for ice cream just 'cause it's Saturday and it's something fun to do. But it really like made me think about just like, ⁓ you know, scrolling on your phone, doing all that kind of stuff where it's like you're not working for the dopamine and just how like how that just puts you in a passive consumer behavior. And that just really stuck with me. And it's like, yeah, it's like when you do work and then you experience the fruit of that, you know, that feels very biblical to me that like that's how God actually designed it. Yeah, even in the garden. He was like, you know, Adam and Eve was like their job was to like tend and expand the garden and take care of the plants and animals. And it was like there's just like a natural ⁓ work reward system that God's wired in us. So that was also inspiring too of like I need to shift out of like passive consuming and like step into more creating like side projects and stuff like that where I'm gonna work and put effort and then at the end of that is gonna be ⁓ the reward of you know and not that I'm like a dopamine junkie, but just like, you know, just like It just f you know, a g a day's hard work, it feels good afterwards and sometimes for creatives when we're just at a computer all day, you know? It's like I feel like I worked, but did I? And you know, so it's just like that's that was also something that inspired me, encouraged me. So

speaker-0: Yeah. Well great two two great sources of inspiration there. And you know, to to two things that you talked about, like I have a a five and a half month old right now, so like yeah, my my movie and TV intake is like super limited. I can basically just do YouTube videos in between dishes and diapers. So Yeah. And then yeah, with with ⁓ backrooms,

speaker-1: Tell it.

speaker-0: And we have like Obsession, we have Iron Lung, like there's kind of this YouTube filmmaker renaissance going on right now. ⁓ not that they were like ever the first, like Bill or Bo Burnham with his eighth grade was there too, ⁓ and inside and so but it's cool to see the YouTube generation starting to take a a bigger foothold. And as somebody who has a a decent following on YouTube, you could definitely leverage that into ⁓ some of your personal projects. I would love to you know, talk shop about that. ⁓ sometime and just give you know some ideas. 'Cause that's what you know w what we're doing here is just trying to to leverage YouTube. So Chris, thank you so much for ⁓ for your wisdom and your your experience in sharing that all with us. ⁓ I think there's a lot of value in what you had to say and ⁓ you know if you are on the audience side of things, if you're looking for a resource to develop your your filmmaking techniques and your your video production, definitely check out

speaker-1: Mm. Cool. Yeah.

speaker-0: Chris's Church Film School. ⁓ the link for that will be below. And then Chris, where can we find you? What what ⁓ social handles or website would you like to leave the audience with?

speaker-1: Yeah, so my ⁓ commercial website is Chris Francis dot TV. And that does have some ⁓ non-commercial stuff on there if you click on the Dead Serious tab. ⁓ and then I am on Instagram, not a super ton, I'm ⁓ I'll admit it, but ⁓ yeah, my handle's underscore Francois, which is underscore F-R-A-N-C-O-I-S. most of the content there will just be a commercial when it drops. And then I I always try to film a lot of BTS. And then I just do a huge twenty-four hour story dump where I just dump all sorts of behind the scenes videos and photos that I'm sure I'm not supposed to be posting. ⁓ and I'm just banking on nobody tagging the client and that in twenty four hours they will disappear. So between that and the occasional clip of me and my son skateboarding, that's kinda all the content on there. ⁓ but yeah, feel free to reach out. Like, ⁓ I do check my DMs on my my internet browser ⁓ a couple of times a week. So ⁓ But yeah, those are probably the main the main two.

speaker-0: Awesome. Well thanks again for being on the show. and we'll catch you next time.

speaker-1: All right. Thanks so much, Chris. Thanks for having me. It was fun.

speaker-0: So I kept the cameras rolling on Chris and I after we finished our initial conversation, and the conversation that followed kind of entered our personal lives a little bit and how that filters into our creative lives as well as our spiritual lives and how obviously that's all connected. And so I felt it was very valuable and I decided to cut that into the main episode. So I hope you enjoy this ⁓ segment that follows our conversation after the plan show.

speaker-1: I think God gives us a lot of agency. you know, it's like there's you know, different people have different kinds of relationship with the Lord too. There's some people that are like really like in lockstep and just like, where do you want me, Lord? You know, I'll go anywhere. And I think that's great. Like, I don't have any like strong feelings either way, but for me personally and the way I relate to God, I feel like one of the things that was just really life giving was just understanding that like that he's with me and like he's you know, I'm I'm you know, Jesus talks about like I you know, I'm in the Father, the Father's in me and it's like as a Christian it's like You know, my existence exists in h like everything that exists is in him. And so it's like personally I don't feel like, you know, if I go left or right, I'm g one is God's will and one's not. I mean there might be like natural consequences to one or the other or the god or like God through relationship might be steering me this way. ⁓ but I do feel like you know, when especially if you're not doing something out of like selfish ambition or stuff like that, you know, like I think for me it's just life giving knowing that like ⁓ you know one of those I think it's when Jesus is like commissioning the disciples to first start doing ministry, I th I think I forget what it is, but it says something like, As you go Which is just kinda like, you know, as you live your life, as you pursue your passions, as you like walk in your own community, you know, do these things. so, ⁓ yeah, I'm happy to hear that. That's encouraging. Like I think it is always empowering to make a active decision. And I I always felt like even with freelance the mo I always felt the best when I said no to a job. 'Cause it's like I just felt like I ha ⁓ it's like I get like this boost of like ⁓ yeah, I do have agency over my own life and like 'cause I know if I would have said yes to this it would have been because of like I really needed the money and it was fear and it just came to me. I had no say on whether like where it came from and I would say yes to it and then I'd immediately regret it 'cause like I'd be stressed or what you know, it'd be a job I didn't want to do and I never felt bad saying no to a job and I think it's because of like that, because it's like you're exercising the agency that God's given you over your own life and I think as a as a man and a husband and a dad and stuff like that, like I think there is something empowering about that of like the Lord is trusting me to make decisions. And you know, so there's like a natural you know, whatever you want to call it. If we don't get back to dopamine, it's like there's a natural dopamine of like I weighed the odds, I prayed, you know, you fasted. It's like you did kind of the due diligence and you were and like we've we feel like this is the best d s decision and ⁓ I had a buddy of mine that moved but ⁓ He moved back and forth from he would lived in like upstate New York. He moved from New York to San Diego and back probably like seven times. And he just kept doing I like, this is crazy. And I remember he told me something at my best friend's wedding. He was like 'cause my best friend had moved back to Indy. And I I don't know if I was thinking about moving back at the same time. But he was like, he's like, nothing's permanent. He's like, you can always move somewhere. And if it's not working out You can always move somewhere else or move back, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, that's like that's good 'cause I always think of like, all right, we're in San Diego the rest of our life. Yeah. You know. So

speaker-0: In my upbringing, I grew up ⁓ Pentecostal ⁓ and still like very charismatic. and there is definitely like a certain element of of an emphasis on like needing to hear the voice of God and needing to to find like a direct inspired word into your life calling and life decisions and sometimes I've gotten like really burnt out, especially in the past year with that. ⁓ that, you know, just hearing another Christian's perspective on like you know, like living in God, like you had just said, is is encouraging, ⁓ for sure. And I think it's would help other Christians as well who 'cause like so much of the creative journey is navigating calling ⁓ and vocation and the tension between like Do I go into ministry? Do I go like be an artist? ⁓ and and so I think that's super helpful. So you'll probably see that clipped up into and probably what I just said as well, clipped up into the show a little bit.

speaker-1: Yeah, no worries. Yeah, I'm similar upbringing. I mean I grew up like non denominational charismatic church and you know, I'm still definitely lean. ⁓ charismatic and w and that's kinda like we've we found a church out here that I think we finally f found where we're we're probably gonna be. and we left our old church in San Diego because I was like once we had kids, I was like I was like growing up in a charismatic church was actually like deeply ⁓ formative for me as a kid to see to see people genuinely excited about God and like you know, singing loud and dancing and ⁓ you know we ⁓ Yeah, very like having a very expressive s even just a Sunday service, because I'd be like, I know that guy. That guy's a postman. You know, he's he's not like ⁓ you know he's not faking it. He's like and ⁓ yeah, I think in that world

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: to a lot of people can be like, yeah, I I've gotta hear from the Lord on everything, or like I need a prophetic word. And it's like and I was always like I was always in charismatic, but I'm always a little skeptical is not the right term, but it just my brain's still on, you know, kind of thing. It's like you know, I grew up in behind the scenes, so I'd see stuff where I'm like, I don't know about that, or I don't know if that was genuine. And luckily my parents

speaker-0: that growing up too of like hearing pastors be like I felt called to this city in in you know nowhere in Michigan or even like Metro Detroit and it's like are you sure? 'Cause like I saw the job posting ⁓ and I also applied just 'cause I needed, you know, an option. ⁓ so it's like, you know, yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah. Totally. But yeah, I think people can look to sometimes I almost too feel like people like are afraid to make their own decisions. I don't want to judge other people, but it's like it could be like I w I need a feeling from the Lord or I need somebody else to give me a prophetic word. And I was like, It's like I think it's good to hear from the Lord, obviously and seek the Lord, but it's like at the same time, I don't think God calls us to like outsource our agency to somebody else. Cause then it's like, you know, you hear like you know, stuff comes out like this guy that was super prophetic. Turns out he was faking it. And it's like people were, you know, getting a word from him and then acting on it and just being like, I'm trusting his ability to hear from the Lord more than my own ability to hear from the Lord and it's like you know, you've got to test every word and like you know it's like and I've you know I've been in environments, you know, where it's like you get a prophecy or something like that and you're like I just am always like, all right, I'm gonna consider that. Like I'm not gonna like, you know, if you're like, I see this and I see this for you and be like, nah, that part doesn't really resonate. Or you know what I mean? It's like I still think I still think that you've got to At the end of the day you've got to steward your own heart, you've got to steward your own life. And that that doesn't mean you're in charge. Right. But I also don't think I know like Bill Johnson at Bethel says this a lot, like J God's in charge, he's not in control. It's like and I think a lot of Christians operate their life as if God's in control. So then that means everything that's bad that happened, God a intentionally allowed it, or like It just makes you like there's this certain path that God has for me and if I stray from that preordained path, I'm gonna be out of God's will or whatever, where it's like No, I think God like really trusts us a lot. Like he empowered his disciples and then he like rose and was around for forty days and then was like, Peace, I'm gonna give you the Holy Spirit. It's gonna be messy, but I'm gonna trust that it's gonna work out, and here we are two thousand years later and it's like that's kind of a crazy thing to do, you know? To be like, I'm not gonna control this. I know all of you are flawed. Like I know you're gonna misinterpret a lot of this. But I trust that like I trust in my ability to talk to communicate with you and your ability to hear and commune with me. And I would rather go on this messy journey together of watching you actually grow and develop than for me to just tell you what to do at every stage and have it be perfect. So it's like I feel like that I I feel like that kind of like bleeds into my perspective. on just everything in life where I'm like, all right, if God was that chill about his plans for the universe, I can probably be that chill about my plans for my career or parenting or, you know, stuff like that. It's like I can probably if he trusts God enough, trust the Father and the Spirit, I could probably do that too, you know.

speaker-0: Yeah. And just to link this kind of into the creative conversation, to to your point on agency and and having agency, ⁓ I think we miss the fact that we are collaborators with Jesus. That Jesus is collaborating with us, that it's not a dictatorship or that like he is the the You know, to link this into filmmaking, there there are this type of directors, you can think of like the Kubrics or the the Finchers who are like, This is my vision, this is it, and this is how it's gonna be. I'm gonna force everyone to be unhappy to get that decision. ⁓ But Jesus really is a collaborator and that, you know, he says that we are yoked to him and he's pulling a lot of the weight, he's pulling the most of the weight, but we are still trudging along with him. ⁓ and I feel like that's something that ⁓ especially creatives, ⁓ can can hold on to tightly and and just trust that ⁓ kinda going into, you know, even though Bethel's been in a little bit of hot water lately, Bill Johnson, what he said I think is very good of of ⁓ God is what was the phrasing that you said. Yeah. ⁓ I think that's super helpful too, whether it comes down to life decisions, ⁓ calling decisions, creative works, like I think creatives can be like, ⁓ like I have this great creative idea that's like innocent, not harmful at all. ⁓ but you know, it's not like the full gospel, so I'm not gonna make it ⁓ because I'm gonna like fall short of sharing the gospel or something like that. ⁓ and you know, I think I think that's something very freeing. to to be like God trusts me. Not only does he trust me, but he has grace over my life so that if I do f fail there is freedom to fail and he can correct me. ⁓ not to like sin intentionally or anything like that. But ⁓ yeah, the hold on tightly to to God collaborating with you and that you do have agency to to make decisions. ⁓ and that's something that I've been like growing into in this season as a ⁓ person who really loves kind of Pentecostal and charismatic ⁓ expression of faith. ⁓ and appreciates it. I do also see you know, each denomination has strengths and and weaknesses and and how their theology affects them, but ⁓ Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I think God like you know, I think he I think he wants us to bring our, you know, five loaves and two fish. It's like he'll he'll multiply it. Like you said, it's like you know, we're working together. I think about that all the time of like working like when I pray and stuff, I'm like You know, let's do this together kind of thing. Not like, you know, you're up here and I'm trying to serve you down here. But it's like, you know, there's all sorts of New Testament that says that, you know, he's our brother. And it's like Jesus, it's like not that we're like equal, but like he seated us with him, you know, so it's like we didn't do anything to deserve it, but it's also like very empowering that but yeah, I just always think of that like, you know Our job is to be diligent and bringing the five loaves and the two fish and ⁓ and he's the one that can multiply it, you know. There's like that that verse, I think it's like Pentecost where it says like ⁓ you know, they were speaking in other tongues or people heard the gospel in their own language. But it's like I think if I remember I could be butchering this, but I think it's like it actually says they heard it in their own language. It doesn't say that like they spoke it perfectly. You know, it doesn't I don't think I mean correct me if I'm wrong here, but it doesn't say that they spoke fluent dialects in other languages. It says that other people heard their own tongue and understood it. So it's like to me, and I e even when I was at the church there would be videos I would do where I was like this one stunk. Like we just kinda like we didn't have enough time to make it cool. I kinda like wasn't even fully present when we made it. Like I don't I wouldn't want to show this I wouldn't want to put this on my Vimeo and that would always be the video that people would come up to me in the elevator and be like, Man, that so impacted me or blah blah blah. And it was just like literally like clockwork. Happened every time we put out a dud. And it was just always a subtle reminder that God was like, ⁓ yeah, it's actually the Holy Spirit working through this video that is impacting people's lives. It wasn't because I got the composition right and the edit and all this stuff. And it's like I still aim for that, but it was just always a reminder that God doesn't need perfection. And a lot of times he doesn't even need our best. He just needs our participation. And it's like if we're willing to participate with him at anything in life, but especially our art. It's kind of wild the stuff that he can breathe through that. ⁓ 'cause there's stuff too, like where I've gotten opportunities in in life and in production where I'm like, I'm my biggest critic of my own work, 'cause it's just like, you know, I'm not where I wanna be yet. And it's like, I feel like I'll get favor where it's like I'll get promoted or I'll get the opportunity to direct this. I'm like, I don't I don't have anything in my real that would say that I could do that. And it's like, You know, and as silly as it sounds, it's like even that spec thing I'm gonna do next Friday. It's like I had no shortage of people that were willing to come out and work for free where I was just like, ⁓ I hate asking people to work for free and it's just like people are like down, like I'll do whatever, like I just wanna work with you and it's like that is so like almost weird to me 'cause I'm like I'm not like you know, I'm not like a a big hotshot or something that's gonna catapult your career because you worked with me. but it is just like a reminder of like We don't we don't know how other people around us are experiencing us or experiencing God through us. So it's like I feel like walking out every day in your life and in your job and in the arts, like walking with the Lord, you know, it's it talks about you know, the fragrance of of Christ is on us and it's discernible to both the perishing and the non-perishing. So it's like just us being filled with the presence of the Lord, people feel that around us, even if we're not like evangelizing or like, you know, being this incredible person, it's like we're carrying the presence with us and that that it's discernible. Whether whether people can even like put their finger on what it is, you know. So it's like I don't think I'm You know, I don't think I'm anything special. Like I think I've been very blessed and with some cool opportunities and I've got some some skills and I've got a lot of like perception and empathy that I think helps a lot. But I I do think, you know I'm walking with Christ, the the Roma Christ is is with me, the his presence is with me everywhere I go, whether I'm directing a comedy commercial that has some cuss words in it, or whether it's like I'm telling a testimonial of how God saved a drug addict, you know. E either way, that presence is still coming with me. And so it's it's a good reminder that it's like my job is to just show up and be diligent and to be loving and be empowering to the people around to value the people I'm working with. Whether it's a church volunteer or if it's an editor or a cinematographer or an actor, you know. And it's like, you know, you work with writers, actors, people that are coming from all stages of life have different backgrounds or understandings of God's or n or God not wanting to do anything with God and it's like, you know, like I can't control how this commercial turns out. I hope it turns out best, but what I can control is how I show up to work and and you know, kind of the attitude I bring and how I value people. And you know, it's almost like a subconscious thing. It's like I don't I don't pray before a shoot and that I'm like, Lord, use me. I pray that they really feel your presence. It's like I just show up and he's with me because he's always with me. and that's not to say on set that I'm like on my A game every time. You know, there's times where I get frustrated or I'm in a bad mood or didn't get sleep the night before and I'm short with somebody and have to go back and apologize and stuff. But I think that's you know, that's part of just being an authentic human that's walking with the Lord. And it's like I I'm not gonna stress on it, but I'm just gonna bank that people can perceive that, you know, and that and that God can work all things together for good. Like if you know, if he said it there's that one song, if he said it, I believe it. So he said it we believe. So like I don't know how it all works, but you know, I've just gotta trust that God's gonna take my five loaves and two fish and multiply it in ways that I don't even know or understand or ever hear or see about, you know.

speaker-0: Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.