speaker-0: Hey gang, I had a great time with this episode's guest, so much so that I've split our conversation into two parts. In part one, we're talking about the theory and philosophy behind being an artist as a Christian, and part two dives more into our guest's career. Tune in for both, you won't want to miss it. Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather And celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Hello and welcome to Creative Chapel. I'm your host, Chris Mack. And for today's guest, I'd like to open with a little story. A small town in Ohio, there was a youth pastor, and that youth pastor was putting on a show with The rap group known as Cross Movement. And this is the late nineties. And that youth pastor was put into contact by another local rapper who wanted to come join the show and was wondering if if he could come along for that. And so that youth pastor agreed. And there we have a a brief glimpse into the the starting point of today's guest, John Rubin, professional rapper. And so that youth pastor is an uncle of mine, and so that uncle passed along burn CDs of John's music to me. So I've grown up with John's music all my life basically. And my uncle shared that story of his experience with John and with Cross Moving and the conversations and the hangs that y'all were doing. And so I'm super excited to have you on the show, John. Yeah. Welcome to Creative Chapel.

speaker-1: Great to be here, man. Do you remember what town that was?

speaker-0: I don't unfortunately. I'll have to ask my uncle.

speaker-1: I remember that show because w I was with the guys who I was ⁓ doing doing shows with. We barely made it. I don't know exactly what happened, but we had some serious car problems. And I I think one the way he put it, the guy whose car we took to get there, he said his tire flew off. And so I don't I don't know exactly what that entails, but that's how I remember it. The tires falling off the car, but we still got there to that show, so that But I remember rem I I can I can kinda even remember what the church looked like, but I can't remember what town it was.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'll have to ask my uncle. I'll send you the send you the town. And so we got to meet at the Hard Faith Film Festival, which is funny. I feel like Crave Chapel is just turning into a really big ad for Hard Faith. And so I was super excited for Hard Faith this year. I didn't have a film there, but obviously I have some friends and and Spencer b has been on the show. And so he asked for some help and I was like, okay, what day originally I could only really offer one day of volunteering. ⁓ and I like, what day is John Rubin gonna be there? 'Cause that's the day I need to be there. And then it just happened to work out that me and my wife and our our little kid, our little baby was able to be there the whole time. So we got to connect and I was very intentional to connect with you. I saw you approaching and made sure to connect and and made little touch points throughout the festival. Because you have been a favorite artist of mine for so long. And it's funny me growing up in Metro Detroit and you being you know, based out of Columbus, Ohio, that like for some reason I had never really seen you live. I don't know, out of all all the winter jams and all the the unity festivals and Christian concerts that I've been to. Do you know do you know King's Island in Ohio? No, yeah. ⁓ do you did you ever like go to or perform at Spirit Fest? Or is like they had some Christian music festival back in the day.

speaker-1: I'm pretty sure I played I played there. I I played there's another p spot around Kings Island. It's a water park. I played that as well, but I played I can't remember the name of it off right now, but I definitely played Spirit. It was Spirit Fest is what it was called, right?

speaker-0: Yeah, my dad was a youth pastor in for most of my upbringing and so like every summer we would go to King's Island. And so yeah, it's just funny like Yeah. Yeah. Big ministry

speaker-1: You've got a family of youth pastors, dude. How did how did you not end up a youth pastor?

speaker-0: I did. Actually my first job out of out of college.

speaker-1: There you go. ⁓ yeah, no, I I feel like I played there in like maybe two thousand, two thousand one or two or something like that. I might have played there a couple of times.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, and so you were you were always an artist that I was like, Man, how have I not seen John Rubin yet? And and so when the opportunity arose at Hard Faith I like, I gotta be there in some way, shape or form, whether it's just one day or all three. So as bad I was able to ⁓ to see you there and ⁓ I'm hoping that I can catch you when you when you do another show. 'Cause you just did Bleach, right? That's what the

speaker-1: Yeah, we did ⁓ after after Hardface I did a just a couple of shows with Bleach. I was gonna do a bigger run in May, but they pushed th those dates back. So I ended up just doing a couple of days with ⁓ but they went really well. We played Huntington, West Virginia, and we played ⁓ Lexington, Kentucky. So

speaker-0: Nice. How was how was the the the crowd of the reception? Were they like

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, people showed up. I mean I I think I was actually pleasantly surprised with the number of people that were there. You know, I think it's hard to get anybody to come to a show and so after all these years I think, you know, to see people showing up and, you know, you know, not selling out clubs, but you know, filling it up filling it up enough to feel like we had an audience and people really enjoyed themselves. We enjoyed ourselves. It was it was a really good time. So I I actually had a lot of fun. I've I've known the bleach guys for Years. I mean, we toured together twenty years ago and so we did a tour together. ⁓ you know, they've just kind of been I've just always been around. We've ran in s similar circles and they're just, you know, great guys. They're they're just it's cool to see them out there doing it. They've got a lot more shows coming up. Maybe not a lot more, maybe they've already done most of ⁓ but they got a handful more. And so go go check them out if you're seeing this and you're a bleach fan or you just like rock and roll, go go go check bleach out.

speaker-0: Yeah, I d I wasn't familiar with them before your tour, so I'm definitely gonna check out their music and get get more acquainted with their music. Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel Podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright, back to the show. And so, to just call back to something that

speaker-1: Okay. Yeah.

speaker-0: you did at Hard Faith, you mentioned something that your mom had communicated to you. And so I want to get into a little bit of more of who John Rubin is, your your story and where you where you came from, where you're going. And so I'd love for you to if you remember what you your ⁓ what you shared at Hard Faith of what your mom told you and just your kind of like start that with where your creative engine kind of like started. ⁓ it sounds like your mom played a really big role in that. family encouragement. So do you remember what you said at Hard Faith?

speaker-1: Kind of. I think so. I believe it probably had something to do with my my mother was always a big supporter of, you know, I guess you would just say believer believers, Christians doing ⁓ being in the arts and ⁓ she also really encouraged this sort of understanding that, you know, to not analyze everything in terms of s sacred versus secular. I think is probably the conversation you were talking about, right?

speaker-0: Yeah, and I think I think it was kinda like a a smaller sentiment of just the the desire of wanting to see Christians execute their faith within creativity.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I I mean I think for her, you know, for me, I you know, I was always, you know, working through what I what I believed about the world, what I believed about God and if I was writing, you know, poetry or making music, you know, I think when you grow up in sort of certain fundamentalist circles it's easy to just say, Hey, that's this is what Christian art is, this is what Christian art isn't but I think when people are seeking what's true and what's honest and you're asking questions about the world around you or just observing whether it's your own, you know, frustrations. I'm trying to think of how to w actually word this, but feel free. Sometimes I get scatterbrained, so if you wanna edit this why I don't do a lot of podcasts, but

speaker-0: No worries, yeah. You can take as long as you need and I can edit around.

speaker-1: No, she was really good at really kind of honing in on that, you know, there's a b great misconception that's kind of I think would be rooted in some really bad theology that unless you were hyper focused on saying Jesus, it might not be considered ⁓ Christian art. And I think her attitude, which I agree with, was always that, you know, people who paint pictures of flowers or sunsets or write love songs or, you know, work through what is very, you know real feelings and real frustrations, real doubt, that that's all part of the experience and that's all part of the journey and that's all and I don't think you can say that that's not valid that's not valid art from a Christian perspective. And so I think she was really where I think it was, you know, and it's relevant I think in the you know, in any medium, but, you know, when we're at a especially at the film festival that you don't need to always have to button everything up with a nice little bow tie to and and, you know, the right the right statement or the right phrase or the the thing that's going to like make it easy to digest in order to say that, ⁓ this is Christian art. Like, I think sometimes you gotta be okay with not just okay with you you have to broaden your horizons to understand that faith is all inclusive when it comes to you the human experience. We are embodied people and these are very real experiences and especially if you have a certain understanding that the Holy Spirit dwells with you in you in the physical body you are in, not just waiting to fly away one day glory, but you are here in your body with real, you know with real human experiences that that is a part of the the walk, the journey per se. So I'm not articulating that super well, but

speaker-0: No, I I feel like I I completely understand where you're coming from and and being an embodied Christian ⁓ in your art I think is so important because that just leads to the sanitized flannel graph, you know, like you said, buttoned up show that we might present to the world or we might walk into the doors of the church and feel like we need to and this this pressure to feel quote unquote Christian when I feel like that kind of mentality and like what you're describing of like, you know ⁓ you know, I'm just just waiting here to get to heaven. Is is kinda close to Gnosticism, which

speaker-1: Well no, that's a that's exactly and that would be the language. ⁓ you know, I I don't wanna go fully there but we might as well go there. But for sure I would say I would absolutely say it's Gnosticism. And I think that ⁓ you know, ⁓ when you when you're in the Christian industry it's you know, you you you sense that temptation to really, really dial it in and and kind of make it, you know, you know, serve it up in a very easy manner that people can can take in and I ⁓ and I th I always had a hard time doing that 'cause it didn't feel very genuine to me. And I also didn't agree, again, like going back to what I've already reiterated, I I didn't agree that Just 'cause I wasn't presenting it in a certain package that it wasn't, you know, Christian art. 'Cause for all intents and purposes, I was working my faith out. I w I am a believer. I ⁓ that that is central to who I am. It's central to my being. And so when I'm writing about the world I'm observing or the things I'm experiencing, that to me is all to some degree being filtered through what I would say I'm wrestling with as my core identity. And so I think yeah, I I I always appreciated that, that, you know, my mom instilled that at a young age. ⁓ 'cause I think there's a lot of a lot of people in church who have a hard time. They they feel like You know, they it's I can't think of the right word. You might you're you're more academic than me. You might have you're probably more theologically savvy than him than I am, to be honest. But I yeah, and yeah, I guess the other thing is another way I would also look at it is is I think art it's okay to be wrong in art. It's not necessarily you're not having I mean, you certainly can have a theological debate in your art, but a lot of times, you know, you can be wrong. Y you don't it's you don't have to be right and wrong. I know that sounds counterintuitive to people who are kind of, you know, bent on everything being either right or wrong, but you can, you know, say something 'cause you're experiencing something and, you know, it doesn't have to be again, fit into an a really neat format that would, you know, you could file under what someone might consider quote unquote proper I I I don't know.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, and I feel like I feel like that plays well into something that I think Christians struggle with is just a freedom to fail. Yeah. That that there is a freedom to fail, there is a freedom to to work things out. And that God isn't afraid of that and he he wouldn't be a God of redemption if he was. And that because we serve a God who can redeem anyone of anything, ⁓ you know, there is a freedom to to express yourself, to to you know, I would I would encourage people to do it with reverence, but at the same time it's like sometimes it's just like I'm I'm in the valley and I'm not seeing the light. ⁓ and I know you're the God of the valley, but it feels like you're not here. And you know, we see that in the Psalms nonstop. Like there there are so many things in scripture in the Psalms or I even think about like you know, it's not the complete thought. Like Paul is going through a complete thought in Romans when he's talking about like I desire to do the things that I are no are bad for me. I think it's Romans eight, eight or nine. Where he's talking about like I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things that I do want to do. And that that simple expression I feel like would be almost hard to communicate in in certain fundamentalist circles. And I wasn't necessarily raised in that fundamentalist aspect, though it was very like evangelical and and, you know, holding to scripture as the standard, but I feel like it was still tempered well. And there was a freedom to, you know, still hold to A a doctrine that was th theologically sound but not ⁓ you know, trying to I don't know.

speaker-1: Well no, I I think I think you're you're landing it. I mean I guess and again, I'm always I'm much more I would be much more concerned about standing on a pulpit. I think sometimes too I I wonder what the this is a genuine curiosity. I wonder what the role of the artist is. Com and I think it's a very different role than being a you know, a teacher or a pastor. And I think, you know, something was ⁓ always much easier for me to express in a song and then if someone would ask me, okay, we want you to say a little something, I would always kind of stumble over my words a little bit because I'm not a good preacher. I was never it's not necessarily what I'm good at. ⁓ and those sort of expectations being placed on artists when artists, you know, are coming in and, you know, hopefully they bringing a sincere faith and they're working that faith out in their music, but it's gonna be messy and it's not going to be you know I I look back on some of the things I I put in some of my old songs and I mean I love a lot of my old music. Some of it really ⁓ makes me cringe a little bit. I mean or the times when I thought I was smart and I was like now I'm I look back with all these years I was like, ⁓ I have a different perspective per se, but i it's okay. Like that's where I was at then and you know and I think that I think that it's you you know, that kind of music when I was young was also like so important to me to to to relate to what I was really experiencing. And so I think that there's a lot of you know, I think there's a lot of misconception sometimes in what the role of the artist is supposed to to be or the the musician. At least growing up in you know, when I when I was touring in the two thousands, ⁓ you know, there would be like this added expectation other than just being I you know, I would see bands who were like fantastic songwriters, you know, would write these really meaningful songs about life, love, you know, gratitude towards God, doubt towards God, all these great things that these songs that were super meaningful in the moment, you know, they felt that pressure to say something or to say that extra thing, i they would, you know, fumble over their words, not because it was like they didn't believe what you know, they didn't believe what they were singing about, but because That's why they sang. They would write these songs, you know what I mean? And that that was their outlet and then there would always be this extra like no or we need you to to say something and and really deliver that zinger of a message and I don't know, I think it's ⁓ not to say that, you know, some people aren't good at both, but I do think that ⁓ you know, I think that so many times I think church and the industry as a whole just sort of has a they're misaligned in what the the job of the you know, the music artist was

speaker-0: Yeah, I think I think what doesn't help in that i is that scripture never really details an artist. And like I don't think it has to. You know, it doesn't detail a lot of jobs. It doesn't detail how to how to be, you know, the The plumber always gets brought into these ⁓ c conversations, the poor plumbers out there who are like, I'm just trying to plumb but

speaker-1: Yeah, that that is funny. The plumber's always the default. Like you know Plum plumbers are so necessary, man. Those are I I tell everyone, go go go work and go work a job like being a plumber, 'cause that's I think that's where all the that's where all the money's gonna be in the future.

speaker-0: But you it's like scripture doesn't outline like how to be a great plumber or anything. Or or any other job. You might, you know we've talked about ⁓ entrepreneurship on the podcast before and and I do feel like scripture does outline a little bit of of business savviness in in Proverbs. And so I actually I actually did two ⁓ solo podcasts on my own exploring these exact thoughts on what does the Bible actually say about art? And what what do we get wrong about the fivefold ministry and artists default into evangelism?

speaker-1: But not for me but for your audience.

speaker-0: The fivefold ministry being in I think it's in Galatians and in Corinthians, showing the offices of the church being the the apostles, the prophets, the teachers and pastors and evangelists. And so we it's also called the gifts, ⁓ spiritual gifts Which is also confusing 'cause there's different spiritual gifts outside of those, but that's why I typically just call them the fivefold ministry. And and so within that I was exploring in the episode and I won't get into it all here 'cause I talked about it there, but ⁓ you know, we we default artists into evangelists and we we make the fivefold ministry into personality types. When I don't think that's what scripture is really outlining for us. And I think it's specifically doing exactly what it's saying. It's like these are the offices of the church. You don't need a specific personality type to do this. You're called to do this, you accept this position, and that's kind of it. But we've made it into this Enneagram, ⁓ Myers Briggs what's your spiritual gifts test online that you go to a ⁓ a a website instead of the Holy Spirit for some reason. And you it I'm not gonna say it's not helpful but to to see things and and know yourself. But at the same time, like we default the artist into evangelists, but why can't the artist function as pastorally or just as a teacher or as prophetic or a prophet in general, you know, the difference between being a prophet versus having a prophetic gifting. But I do think It's hard for artists to to navigate when there's the pressure to to feel like an evangelist and they might in in a very relatable sense of like Abraham or not Abraham of Moses of it's like Moses wasn't a great speaker or preacher, but he was called to do something. And I feel like in the same sense it's like artists might feel called to do something but not have the ability to to articulate and feel comfortable with a a straight delivery of the gospel. Which I'll admit as an audience member I really like it. when when Christian artists are just like straight up about their faith and and take a moment from the stage at at a concert or show to to express the goodness of God and and talk about the gospel. But I can also understand it when an artist is like, I'm kinda good at one thing and like you said, like the preaching side i isn't that. And so I can understand that that pressure is probably yeah pretty difficult to deal with.

speaker-1: It's I was thinking of a story where I was working when I was like this is before I was touring and I was having some conversation with a guy I was working with and he was at he knew he knew I ⁓ was a Christian and he was asking me all sorts of questions and sort of challenging me on certain perspectives, you know, and I remember being like, I'm gonna answer these questions as honestly as possible. Not even really comfortable having this conversation. I don't like having this conversation, but I feel the need to be honest, somewhat paranoia that, you know, that I was ashamed of my faith, or and then and then somewhat also just out of real conviction, like, you know, just be honest about what you think and what you believe. And, you know, I would say that whether you're, you know, a a person of faith or not, you know, I think it's good to just be an honest person. And but I mumbled through something. I don't think I said Anything convincing whatsoever. Honestly. And I remember being like, man, I hate these conversations. Like, this is why I write poetry, or this is why I write this conversation. I'm not kidding. Probably I think it was like ten years later, I was like playing a show somewhere in the Midwest, not in the city I was from. And this guy comes up to me, super enthusiastic. He's like, You remember me? And I kinda looked at him, I was like, Yeah, I was like, ⁓ yeah. I think we worked at old Navy together or something like that. He goes, Hey man, you you led me to the Lord. I said, What? Like like I was like, What you talking about? Like there wasn't I don't know, man. I'm telling you, dude, there was no like, let me pray for you, bruh. Yeah, like you know, there was no fire, there was no tingly sensation, there was nothing. Like I hated the conversation, I think, because I wasn't good at that conversation. But I just felt compelled to be honest about what I was thinking, what I was working through, what I believed. Somehow from that conversation, that led him a certain chain events and he ended up being a youth pastor and he like credited that conversation. And so that's kind of the I've had a handful of those experiences. You know what I mean? When the when the when the lights aren't on and I I'm not saying anything very convincing in my mind. I'm not. I'm just being truthful, you know, and I some people would say actually that I might be trying to detour people away from church or something. Like I'm just being honest. You know what I mean? But I'm not shying away or, you know, I wasn't, you know, trying to come up with some way to you know, make Jesus cool or anything like that. I was just being honest about the big questions and that seemed to really resonate. And so I mean that I I always found that story funny. And also it you know, I I think it it's definitely you made me think about the foolish being used. Well that certainly would be a case, you know. And maybe that's not that's not that's bad theology probably, but I'm just saying I did not do a good I did not I didn't have soft music playing. There was nothing in I didn't put the right inflection in my voice. It was literally just like while we're punching tags into shirts and I was probably like, I don't know, man. I just kinda see it like this. This is what I think. I think I'm right about that because of this, this and this. I don't know.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I don't know. I don't even remember what I said. I just I re I do remember having I've had handfuls of conversations like that. And so

speaker-0: I just I feel like it it calls back to I'm pretty sure it's Paul, I don't know where he says, you know, one is one is ⁓ meant to water or one is one one is to plant, another is to water. ⁓ it's when he's talking about how people are debating between him and and another apostle and they're they're saying I'm a follower of Paul and I'm a follower of another apostle I think. And he's like, one is meant to water, one is meant to plant and and God brings the increase there. And so, you know, your your ministry unto this person in just a casual conversation was impactful to him. And I think that that also translates to our art in that like I feel like Christian artists are pressured to commit themselves, like their every single song, every single film that they make, every painting that they do, ⁓ every photo that they take has to communicate the gospel in some way, shape or form. And ⁓ And if they don't do that then they're not Christian and then th their work isn't Christian. But it it misses just like the the the sprinkling of of water to like follow that analogy that Paul uses that one is meant to plant, one is to water. It's like that watering could be a fire hose, that watering could be just a a sprinkling, and if if that sprinkling is in your art, ⁓ you know, that is the ability to minister to someone regardless and and that we just trust that unto the Lord of like this is I am making to express myself, yes, I'm I'm making because I feel like I'm called this and I'm making because I want to serve the Lord in this. And how I do that can have a whole lot of other implications. But I can at least trust that if if my goal is to to honor the Lord, whether it's in my doubt or in my ⁓ you know, on the mountaintop or in the valley, ⁓ that the Holy Spirit can use this for good because that's where my heart is is striving towards in pursuing the the kingdom. Even if it that's in a wrestling or in in in

speaker-1: Yeah, well saw the wrestling. I thought you were talking about like wrestling, wrestling. Like w W W. Well I mean like how much how much quote unquote non Christian art do you enjoy?

speaker-0: When it comes to music, ⁓ I definitely you know, having a family of youth pastors was raised upon ⁓ you know, a lot of Christian music. And so I would say music wise the percentage of like Christian music versus secular would be I don't know, eighty twenty, eighty percent Christian, twenty percent secular. Film wise it's like

speaker-1: What about channel?

speaker-0: all the media that I'm consuming i you know, that's probably the reverse. It's probably even a greater like it's probably I would say ninety eight or ninety nine secular for film and and TV and then maybe, you know, one or two percent Christian.

speaker-1: Well, I'd be curious like what about the what about that ninety eight to ninety nine percent? Why why is it n well why is the number so high when there is quote unquote this isn't judgment. This is actually I'm curious about your perspective.

speaker-0: Yeah, I th I think

speaker-1: Why why why would you why why are you watching more non quote unquote Christian media opposed to Christian media? I

speaker-0: I think it's great question and it's something that I've been kinda analyzing myself for the past few years because I I would notice I feel like I might have shared this on the podcast before, but I would notice that I would get out of church. And this was maybe two years ago that I was having this reflection is that we would get out of church and I'd be talking with the the youth guys and I would be talking with some of the the other guys that were closer to my age and we were all trying to find that source of connection between our different age groups. ⁓ and it was very or natural and organic, but you know, sports would come up But movies would come up all the time. We'd be like, ⁓ have you seen this movie? Like I you know, you should go see this movie. This just came out and like we're gonna as, you know, a church group, go see the new, you know, Marvel film and and so I started to just notice that our consumption doesn't reflect our standards. when it comes to artists and their work. And so I feel like for a film specifically, why it's so high in the other direction of consuming secular art and secular films and T V is that for me, I think it's a a quality thing. It's and not only just like production value, but I would say quality of story. Even even if it's a story that I'm like I don't love that they have this throwaway line of Christ not being divine. Or I Would not recommend people to act the way that these characters are acting. I think these act these characters are pretty deplorable people, but it's it's fascinating and and interesting to watch. And

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: And I think for Christian films, and this is a a reoccurring theme on Creative Chapel, I feel like between all the conversations that I'm having, especially with a lot of filmmakers, it's been very film heavy lately, is that just untruthful storytelling. And in stories that are incapable of going into the valley in darker places. And despite

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

speaker-0: you know, it's so much of scripture being uncomfortable stories. And how God is still in the midst of that and and ⁓ present in those moments. And so I I I am always on the lookout for films that stir theological thought. I have a a stack over here of some movies like on the waterfronts in the mix and Night of the Hunter and you know some older movies there. But you know, I th I think it's a a mix of the quality of story is just a little bit better and better executed because it's a commitment to story and not a commitment to a sermon presented in the film. And I think also a quality of production value, if I'm honest. But that's kinda like shifting in me as as well. But and also I'd say like, yes, there are things like Angel Studios out there, but I don't there just aren't a lot of Christian filmmakers operating at a high level and high enough that are gaining the attention of the greater film industry. And also operating in television especially. Like there is no Christian TV show other than Duck Dynasty. And I can't say

speaker-1: say so the things you as a believer are attracted to are honesty, authenticity, something done, a great story being told, something being shot visually wonderful. Mm-hmm. Like whether that comes from a Christian or not, that speaks to your soul. And I think they're in

speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

speaker-1: within that there is a bigger truth to the human experience to and I don't know who who said it. Felt I felt like it felt like it ended up being a controversial thing, which to me didn't make sense as to why it's controversial. Maybe it was like Rob Bell or somebody who said it, I don't know, but it was like seemed like a common sense thing to say. Like all truth is God's truth, you know. And so I it seems to me that if you're experiencing something really meaningful and it's like a great story, like to some degree you would have to say that that comes from, you know, something bigger than, you know, I don't know, that that would be God given, I guess you would say. I think what it's always an interesting thing when you really try to pinpoint what makes something Christian or not, because I I could plug in right now to AI and I could I could spit you out some pretty compelling worship songs written by AI. Does that make ⁓ Christian songs? I mean, they're probably better than a lot of the Christian worship songs you're listening to. I mean, th th these these will be done really well. You know what I mean? So there's a deeper you know, again, I'm I'm not saying I'm an expert on the conversation, but it's certainly something that I'm curious about. Like the d you know w where we draw these lines of what makes something Christian or not Christian. And, you know, I'm I'm wondering h can that even fully be defined and and again, I I like very intentional redemption stories. I really do. So it's not I'm not, you know, I think the chosen's really well done. I I I enjoy watching it. There are haven't watched a lot of Christian films if I'm being honest. But yeah, no, I just think it's an interesting question because clearly something draws you to the non Christian films more than to the Christian films. And you would be a a ⁓ sadder, probably less inspired person if you decided right now I'm just I'm gonna just watch Christian movies. And then there's probably a lot of people who make Christian movies who aren't even don't even fully know if they even believe it. You know, if i if if something is ⁓ you know, can return a profit, I don't mean to look at that cynically, but

speaker-0: No, it's exactly

speaker-1: Certainly a lot of songwriters who who approach it that way, you know what I mean? You figure out what an audience wants and you you deliver it to them. I I always was cautious of that because I that seemed like more dangerous grounds than what writing a song in just standard pop circles about like, well, people like this, so I'm gonna write this song about whatever the club. Well people like this, so I'm gonna write this song about, you know, God's goodness if you don't believe it. You know what I mean? Like that always felt more uncomfortable to me. And and and so If anything, you know, it was a it was a call to be authentic in my faith, be authentic in my own writing. But obviously there's something in you that likes all those devil movies, so I don't know, what's going on, man?

speaker-0: Yeah, and just backsliding I guess all these years.

speaker-1: Well, you know, it is funny. I will tell you, there is a funny like, I don't know if just because there was a bigger market for Christian music, but people would be more adamant about, hey, in in our world, you listening to listening to Christian music and you know, you burning your secular CDs or whatever, you know, people used to do back in the day. You're probably too young for that. But it did it seem like those same people would like, ⁓ yeah, we're gonna go watch Star Wars.

speaker-0: Yeah, right. Exactly.

speaker-1: Like like so there's there's always been this weird line where music was always like, No, music is it's gotta be on point, it's gotta stay on message, it's gotta be very, you know, clear cut, you know. Mm-hmm, you know, this, this and that. And I I I I know what I'm talking about when I say this. I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to not be flippant because I think there are very meaningful, you know, I I understand what the formula is and I'm not actually I think there's a lot of space for that formula to be very good. I've seen that formula mean a lot to people, you know what I mean? But it is like there was always a different standard between film and and and music.

speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've I've tried to think about that more. And you know, as somebody who was a youth pastor and growing up with a bunch of youth pastors and pastors, you know, it was it it was a point of like teaching of the the teens of like why I would encourage Christian ⁓ music over secular music and thinking about that relationship unto film and what you're consuming there. And I think what I I'd be curious to your thoughts on this. Mm, I think this is a a still evolving thought within me. But I feel like music has a a more direct line into affecting someone,

speaker-1: I would agree that. It's something you can put on repeat over and over. It gets locked in your mind. You can I think you can build identities around it. So I I I understand that. Although I will say ⁓ the the Marvel universe, there's a lot there's a lot of Marvel heads who have pretty strong

speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I mean they're they're tackling it from two different mediums there, you know. You have comic books and films, so it's yeah taking the power of two different mediums to overcome film. ⁓ or music. I think I think music has the the ability to both be like passively listened to and intentionally listened to. So I think that's an aspect I think you kinda touched on that. And so I think, you know, I grew up with a dad who ⁓ you know, my mom was raised in the church, very Christian girl. My dad was like, you know by name only kind of Catholic I guess. And was doing bar shows in the eighties, playing, you know, hair metal and and rockin' out. And then he came to faith upon meeting my mom and had genuine curiosity before starting a relationship with her. And and so there was always this tension within him about the music that he enjoyed. And like, you know, he was told to like get rid of all of his albums. So, you know, there goes Rat, there goes the police, there goes Sweet, there goes Thin Lizzie. And all bands that like, you know, later came back and and were You know, now it's some of my favorite bands as well.

speaker-1: That's the twenty then Lizzie's in the twenty percent.

speaker-0: Definitely. I love Thin Lizzie. And so yeah. And you know, you listen to some of that music and or you listen to what's even talked about in their lyrics and some of it's like, yeah, I don't I don't really see this, you know, connecting into my faith and then there's other aspects that are. And and something that I I've said a lot in my YouTube videos and I say this in those solo episodes I did, is that A. W. Tozer has this quote in his book ⁓ the knowledge of the holy, where he says, Because we are the handiwork of God, it follows that all of our problems and their solutions are therefore theological And I read that and was really struck by that and I've kind of adapted it ⁓ for the artist to say because we are the handiwork of God it it follows that all of our art and its creation is therefore theological. And so I feel like saying, you know, it's It's awkward. It's it's not as good branding to say I'm a theological artist or a theological filmmaker or a theological musician. It's not as like catchy as saying I'm a Christian artist. But I feel like that just makes more sense. And I think that that plays into the problem of just an industry making a genre out of something that's a faith and a religion. And there's the the genrefication of our faith that's like, okay, to to be a Christian song you have to hit these staples. Or to be a Christian film you have to hit hit these bullet points where it's like I'm trying to think of I have On the Waterfront over here on my shelf starring Marlon Brando and it's n I'd say one of the best, you know, quote unquote Christian movies. Not because I think it's, you know, Christian, that they would never label as a Christian film, but it is deeply theological. And it could be even wrestling with themes. The director was like going through the kind of like the you know Marx Marxism whist trials of that time. So there's a lot of like wonder if some of those things those th themes were allegorical to what he was going through in real life. But ⁓ there's a priest character in that film who does present a very great moment of preaching and ministering, but it's organic to the film. And it's like you would never see this movie on Angel, you would never see this movie on Pure Flicks, but it's one of the greats and it has a great ⁓ you know, performance from from Marlon Brando. And so I I label it more as a a theological film and a theological work rather than a Christian. And so yeah, I'd love to know your thoughts on like the genre genrification of Christianity and and hitting specific points.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think it just raises more questions than answers, I guess.

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speaker-1: Like what what defines something as Christian. I think is you know what I mean, when does something become Christian? Mm-hmm. And I I think it goes probably I'd imagine to a probably somewhere and again this is like this is where I would be the better interviewer because I wanna I wanna ask the expert the question that I'm trying to st you know, you know, like ⁓ like I think I can come up with a good question. I d I don't know if I can come up with a good answer. But I think it raises more questions because if you're gonna say something is Christian, what does that mean? And Christianity's so much bigger and broader and universal than sort of the world in which I think the Christian genre was developed in. And so I think the Christian genre developed in a very narrow framework. And I think sometimes I wonder if it was developed just to make people feel safe, almost like a form of escapism from the big, bad, ugly world out there. Which I again And there's something about that that I'm not really fully mad about. Like 'cause there's a lot of stuff that's very toxic to the mind and to the soul that I would much rather the youth or my kid listen to something I might think is a a bit like overly you know, with like something that didn't have a lot of edges, but they enjoyed that. I'd rather that than something that was like really like embedding in their soul and giving them some very, you know, dark thoughts or outlook on the world, per you know, or like, you know, just so I do think there is something about that that like but but I here's what I would say to that even that point though. Like it wouldn't I you know, I know sometimes my daughter'd be listening to something, I'd be like, I don't really like this, but I would I'd be like, why don't you go listen to like this artist? And it wouldn't even be a Christian artist, but I just liked the message that they were putting out into the world or the creativity they were putting into the world, you know what I mean? Opposed to sort of this some really lowest common denominator, like just I don't know, I don't want to be mean, but you know, like I I could go on a I I'm yeah, I'm I'm I'm learning to try to think of how to articulate things a little better than just being mean spirited about it. But so for me at that point it's not even an issue of like, well, is this Christian or not Christian? It's much more is do I think that it's you know, instilling something meaningful Can my can my can my kid draw something meaningful from this music? A healthy understanding of what it means to be a woman, a healthy understanding of what you know, 'cause have a daughter, healthy understanding of what it means to be to work through like ⁓ trials and tribulations, something meaningful about love and not just sort of like, you know, something really cheap and you know, that that is like gonna pull out the worst in somebody. So I think those are the things I'm looking for when I would wanna pass something on to my to to my kid. And at that point it's not really like a hard line of like, is this Christian or not Christian? I've also heard some really some Christian music that I think is so off the rails bad element theological nuts that I'm like, I don't want my kid listening to this because I don't think this is how God is. Like this is gonna create a bad perspective of who God is in my opinion. So I think, you know, as far as the genrefication of it, I I think it's a very limit it can be very limiting, I would say. And I think it can be very I I wish there was more openness within the church network or the industry for there just to be art that isn't so buttoned up, d you know, maybe doesn't, you know, but somebody who is aiming to teach or aiming to express something of their faith through their music and that there would be a real place for dialogue, conversation in a in a meaningful arts community. I'm sure there is. Like I don't I know that this exists, but I think when you look at the thing historically in our world that has done really well, it's like, you know, okay, well I gotta I gotta do it this way in in order for it to connect because the the demographics they're targeting are just looking for this very specific thing. Whereas I think there's so many Christians who just aren't in Christian music who are just making art art that's meaningful or there are so many people who are go you know you know and that go to church that are also just not actively seeking out Christian art because for the same reason you listen to ninety eight percent or you watch ninety eight percent you know non-Christian movies. And so I just think there's a it's a it the genrification of it it's hard for me to be overly critical of it because I think I was slotted into that wouldn't I mean I guess that's the genre I was in. So it's a big part of who who I am was w to be in that genre. But I don't know, you know, on a creative level I don't know what it tells you about anything. And even on a message level, I'm not even sure what it fully tells you because what ⁓ you know, what about Christianity are you trying to express through your music that makes it uniquely the Christian genre versus if that genre never existed, you know.

speaker-0: Well, I think I think it's important to actually wrestle with things and to actually like I think in the Christian faith we are encouraged to just have answers, ⁓ and no questions. And so I think it's important that artists do ask questions and are inquisitive about the world, inquisitive about their faith, inquisitive about like, do I actually believe what the preacher is saying right now? And why when I walk out of the doors right now, do I agree with that theologically? Do I see that in scripture? I I used to be really hard on deconstruction, you know, I think in twenty twenty when it was like Deconstruction's the hot new thing on TikTok and like everyone's about it. And it's like a trend. It's like trendy to be deconstructing your faith. I was really like repulsed by that and and adamant and guessed it and vocal against it. But I think the more that I've heard stories from like real people and people who really have faith ⁓ and have have deconstructed and reconstructed, I have felt better about saying that there are things that I think need to just come down theologically. There are There are things that we hear from the pulpit that I feel like just aren't well thought out, aren't prayed about, aren't really from the Lord. Because a preacher got on an ego trip and decided to just like start sp sp like spouting off and saying stuff that's like I just don't see that in scripture, what you're saying right now. And so my heart has been ⁓ softened to those who feel the need to deconstruct. And often that comes with questions. And I think there is a a you know Like you said, fundamentalist circles will kind of reject questioning because it'll lead to a deconstruction without reconstruction. But I think it's important for churches and, you know, artists in that sense, I would say, that if you are proposing a deconstruction of of things within your faith, you know, not just to stay there. And so all that to say, I think it is important to be inquisitive and to have questions and to not be afraid of having questions. And not to be afraid of bringing those questions between you and your pastor, you and your church community, you and your your brothers and sisters in faith. And ⁓ you know, y I think it would be good to ask those questions to people outside of the faith as well, but I think that's you know, you need to have a good trust of of who they are 'cause they might just have a bent away from the church and and are antagonistic towards it in general. I think that can be It can be both a place that could strengthen you because you have to defend and know what you believe, but also it could be a place of like maybe I just reject this completely. And I think that's the tension that church leaders and Christians in general and parents will have when it comes to the questions. But I think if we're really raising believers in their faith and into a mature faith that Paul talks about, that we're not just like keeping them on milk all the time, which I feel like most evangelical Protestant churches are. ⁓ but we are bringing them into the depth of their faith, then we can walk through the questions together with openness and an understanding that ultimately we're just trying to get to the the pure essence of who Jesus is and how I can be more like him.

speaker-1: the origin story of Israel in the Bible is r is wrestling with God, you know, one who struggles with God. And I think it's been interesting 'cause I think I've l for me, because I think, you know, I think if you go back and you listen to even my old albums, it was all there. You know what I mean? It was never really buttoned up nice and neat. And I think I had plenty of questions and doubt and all all the things that I think plenty of things I didn't believe. I could never fully believe that were sort of handed to you as the script, you know, whether that's a kind of in that Pentecostal charismatic script or whatever. But probably because I try not to let my highs be too high and my lows be too low. And to some degree, you know, I feel like I'm now like the prude who's still kind of going to church and kinda like you know, still kind of, you know, engaging with my faith and not needing to have all the answers. But I think a lot of that just comes from a place of I I was always okay with, you know, the things I don't fully understand and also not needing to put a know, a nice neat button it up completely. Like I it's it's messy and if you know, it can cause you to have a lot of like it can get meta really quick if you know, and people I think don't know what to do with like the ambiguousness of things and sometimes you gotta learn to just rest in what you don't understand and what you don't know. And also it's like You know, like not everything else has to be wrong in order for Jesus to be right. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of good life lessons you can pick up out of a Marvel movie. You know what I mean? And Jesus doesn't have to be the superhero in that movie. Like if if Jesus is gu ⁓ God embodied, then you know, God is universal beyond time, beyond our understanding and I and I think that People are, you know, can have a perspective on who God is, you know, without having a nice neat theology that can still ring true and resonate. And I think a lot of people don't know what to do because I think everyone's so bent on being able to define who's in and who's out opposed to that maybe that's not our job to sit here and fully you know, there are plenty of people who c will tell you, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm completely in, I'm all in and they could not be more destructive or more toxic to the fabric fabric of society into the fabric of your spiritual well being. And so I think I I think it's like, you know, some people say that sounds wishy washer woo. I don't think it is, but my one question I had for you was how would you describe the video we we made together? Is that Christian art? Have you showed your pastor?

speaker-0: Well ⁓ my current pastor helped in the conception of it, so he was amongst the first to see it.

speaker-1: Could you tell me where the redemption arc in that video is and in that song is? Can you point to what makes that song Christian?

speaker-0: Hospitality.

speaker-1: There you go. You can you back that video, that that wild idea you came up with? Can you back it with some scripture?

speaker-0: I mean if I really tried maybe, but you know, it's just fun. It's just having fun and it's a fun song. And so

speaker-1: It's good 'cause I think it's a good example of some of the stuff we're talking about. Like what what makes that song Christian? I don't y someone has to tell me. What makes that Christian?

speaker-0: Or like ⁓ you know I briefly scrolled through your conversation with you did a podcast with K J five two a while back. And ⁓ and you know, his his Mountain Dew song was like an anthem. I don't know if you ever listened to that song where he's like he's like a Mountain Dew addict. But that was like an anthem in in my church growing up. And you know, I I don't necessarily see a whole lot of theological implications from that song. And I don't think that Mountain Dew is even healthy for you physically, let alone spiritually.

speaker-1: I mean one could argue one could argue that's probably like that you know Mountain Dew's actually outlawed in a lot of countries 'cause it's like chemicals you're not supposed to put into your body. So if anything, you're putting poison into your temple. Like you can really make a case against the Mountain Dew.

speaker-0: Yeah, so you'll have to you'll have to have a a talking to with K J five two next time about.

speaker-1: You guys let that filth into your church, not me. You did you that's horrible.

speaker-0: Ha ha ha ha. Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.