speaker-0: Hey gang, I had a great time with this episode's guest, so much so that I've split our conversation into two parts. In part one, we're talking about the theory and philosophy behind being an artist as a Christian, and part two dives more into our guest's career. Tune in for both, you won't want to miss it. Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. And so the music video kind of makes me want to pivot into your career a little bit more. And so I wanted to show you this video. I don't know if you love this video or if you even have seen it in a long time or anything, but this is a YouTube video I found. So our

speaker-1: Yeah. I preach the gospels, but I'm out of whack contact. ⁓

speaker-0: ⁓ For those who are just listening on Spotify and don't see the video, this is a YouTube video titled John Rubin Rips the Mike at age thirteen for a YouTube channel called Rubonic Plague. and so I'm curious into ⁓ if you even knew that video

speaker-1: Yeah. No, that was that was my brother. My brother was was quite the the video maker. So he captured all that. Back in the day, so that that was a ridiculous piece of content put together. So I had put out a mockumentary. I don't know if you've ever seen it called The Professional Rapper. And like

speaker-0: I'm bummed that I haven't seen that. That would have been great to talk about more on the show.

speaker-1: ⁓ man. So like a two thousand five, two thousand six, I can't fully remember but my brother was really early to where things were shifting in media and was an early ⁓ champion of YouTube. And he, you know, had we had talked about doing like like a mockumentary or doing something like that around, you know, my career. And we kinda created, you know, these these wild characters and I I kinda went into a, you know, whatever I created this sort of absurd character to kinda play the role of myself. So it was just me, only more ridiculous I guess.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: But it was called Professional Rapper. Goatee. We ⁓ I remember going to Goatee and saying, Hey, instead of, you know, putting money into like print ads or anything like that, you know, why don't we do this, you know, shoot this content and use content as sort of marketing. And go T was like, Yeah, we're down. And so kudos to them. And you know, we put out this video. ⁓ the professional rapper ended up this is I mean, this is early stage YouTube ended up getting like featured on YouTube. And it was kinda I think w a longer piece of content at the time to be featured because I think things were, you know, this was again early, early stages, whereas like squirrels on skateboards and things like that. And I remember, you know, Toby being like, This is great. Like, this is some of the best, you know, our resources went to. We got this video, got seen X amount of times. And so we ended up making more of these little short, ridiculous clips. And I think it confused I would say about five out of every ten people who liked my music loved it. I'd say about two people would didn't really understand what was going on, didn't pay, didn't care, and about three people decided to never listen to my music again because they were like, I have no idea what this is. ⁓ it's pretty bizarre, kind of sarcastic stuff. And so that was just my brother gathering up old footage he took of me as a young kid d being dumb, you know, rapping in church. you know, getting the chance to like rap at some sort of like the youth take over the church service when I was like thirteen and so I think the name of the I think the name of the event that Sunday was something like It Ain't Mayberry no more. ⁓ so I don't know. Your the Andy Griffith show, if you ever watched it, it was like, you know, this sort of safe like ⁓ really sentimental fifties era T V show. Mm-hmm. And they were like, No, it's not safe anymore. And so I wrote a song. A verse about and not being Mayberry anymore. Which is really just a chance for me to slip to flex and try to like come up with some braggadocious rhymes and then slip Jesus in there to make it feel like, you know, it was Christian. Thirteen year old. But yeah, the so yeah, that that was the you know, like a hodgepodge of those. We had a bunch of other ri really weird ones. You you'll have to I'll have to send you a link to all that stuff 'cause that was

speaker-0: Ha ha ha. Yeah, I'd love to see you. Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. All right, back to the show. So I'm I'm curious of like what's what's going through 13-year-old John Rubin's head. at that moment of like thinking about his future and career and rapping and and or just, you know, filtering into the early stages of like how you got started with rapping, how that led to goatee, you know, hanging out with cross movement in Ohio at some random youth outing. I'm curious of like what what did you see for yourself at that age as you started rapping? And I'd be even curious to go further of like, how did rapping get started? What what were the the beginning career levels for for you.

speaker-1: Yeah, I don't I don't really know what's gonna I think I was probably just trying to impress people. I think you know, I think I I remember being at a youth camp maybe that year or the year after. I think it would have been like and this was like super interesting camp, Pentecostal, you know, one of those where you go to church for like four hours, you wake up, you pray for two hours, go to lunch. You swim in a pond for about an hour, clean up, go to church for four hours. But

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Then at night everyone would get into like shaving cream wars and so that was the big you know, you're up from like we were we'd go to bed at like, you know, ten and everyone would pop out of bed at like midnight and start like, you know, the shaving cream battles in the in the in the dorm, whatever but

speaker-0: Man, you're making me think about youth camp growing up. I I was raised Pentecostal and I would s still say I'm pretty much Pentecostal or charismatic and just thinking about Youth Camp and now that I have a son and thinking about like Youth Camp for him.

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean we had fun. It was like but I remember so it was like this Pentecostal youth camp in w in West Virginia. We had, you know, our our our our group would go. There would be like real deal like people in, you know, the the Appalachian Mountains that would come and then you would have, you know, inner city kids from Pittsburgh and it was like a very you know, it was a mixed group of people and there was, you know, a lot of like jamming kind of bluegrass, worship Pentecostal music. But then there was also this bent towards like, you know, hip hop. And they it was fun because you we'd always they would let you take over the the ⁓ you know the drum set, the bass you know, someone would play drums, some would play bass and then people would rap at night. And one night there was just like everyone was rapping and having a bit of an open mic and I got the urge. I was like, I'm I'm gonna show everyone I can do it. But I the way I dis I started off doing it, I remember I I would I went in and I started rapping. And I did it kind of jokingly because I was I could always back out if they thought it was bad. I could be like, ⁓ this was just kidding, guys. So I started off kind of being silly, but they ended up getting really into it. And the more they got into it, the less I die, I was able to drop it, be like, nah, no, I'm not joking. I'm really going for it. And I went for it. And that definitely sparked something in me. That camp, yeah, I can't remember if I was like thirteen or fourteen. It was after that. I said it was probably like fourteen. But I I'd always written poetry. I'd had some poems published. when I was ⁓ in fifth grade in the curriculum magazine. And I just you know, that was sort of like I would just write feelings out and write it poetically and then I ended up like really getting into hip hop and the church I went to was a kind of a combination of it had a program on there for people kind of instead of going into prison, they could go to this this ⁓ I don't know if you call it like a I don't know if you I don't think you call it a halfway house, but It was sort of like an opportunity to them for them. They'd go to this church, they would do community work, they would be a part of the church. It was and d that church was started by a bunch of guys like who came from Brooklyn. So this is like on the it was like a really interesting combination of people like on the outskirts of like Columbus, Ohio, in this small country town. It was like all these people coming from Brooklyn, New York, and they were marrying Appalachian women and You know, so it was this real mixture of like white Appalachia mixed with like Puerto Ricans coming from New York and and and it was again very diverse community. And so from a lot of those guys I I remember in the l late eighties, early nineties, can't remember the exact timeline, but kinda you know, it's some of those guys kind of introducing me to break dancing, even though I couldn't break dance and you know, there was a there was a weird ⁓ introduction to like hip hop culture that I got really into and so I just got really into hip hop and then, you know, my my youth pastor at the time, who was the son of the pastor, I was always giving us like ⁓ you know, the Christ Christian hip hop and I got to be honest, like I didn't really like Christian music, but Christian hip hop in the early nineties. You always hear people say, ⁓ finally hip hop got good but Christian hip hop in the early nineties was really good. Like not just good for Christian, but just like good on every level, artistically, creatively. Especially like ninety three to like ninety five. There was just this string of great hip hop albums that came out that I still consider some of my favorite like hip hop. And I you know, for me I'm partial, but that was my favorite hip hop from of anything that could be labeled Christian, kind of more specific in the Christian genre, which I think you could also define as going back to your genre conversation as distribution at a at a point where, you know, they would distribute to the Christian bookstores and they would distribute then Through things like Interlink, which would go to like churches and whatnot. I don't know if you remember Interlink. Which I do think to some point, to go back to the earlier conversation real quick, from a genre standpoint, I think a lot of that came down to the distribution mechanism. Like the like once things went where you could get it, anyone could get it anywhere at any time, and you didn't have to like package CDs and ship and have places that would be willing to stock ⁓ and sell them. I think that really drove a specific genre because you had Christian bookstores that would sell these CDs that they deemed, you know, you know, kind of good enough to be in in their in in their in their stores. And so I think a lot of that genre was driven. And I think a lot of those lines started to blur once streaming came into effect and you were no longer those those the pige the physical side of that was no longer around to sort of kind of create those

speaker-0: Yeah. Who are who are some of the who are some of the artists that were like stand out to you that those are your favorite albums still and that you go back to? I

speaker-1: I would say Illumination by SFC. Second coming by Freedom of Soul. LPG. I don't know if you ever heard of the Tunnel Rats. LPG's Earthworm. Gospel Gangsters Gang Affiliated. I mean just great album. That was also they were a little later, but I mean the LA Symphony were great. That was more late nineties, Brainwash Projects, LA Symphony. They're they're fantastic. Still are fantastic.

speaker-0: Man, I feel I feel embarrassed that I don't know any of these artists right now. These

speaker-1: These are ⁓ yeah, it's these albums were great albums. I mean like great albums. Like just on every level, creative. I mean, just had a unique take, a unique perspective. Like it like I I like I listened to mainstream hip hop too. And you know, that stuff holds up in rotation with all that other stuff that I love from the early nineties. So I I had all those records and I love those records. Those records were like super meaningful stuff for me. And so, you know, there was like a cool little community around you know, the the Christian hip hop community and it was it was pretty vibrant stuff. It was like really good. And so I'm trying to remember what our conversation was. How did I get into it?

speaker-0: Yeah, I I'd th think right now it'd be like once you got into it, you know, we talked about popping off at youth camp, ⁓ getting good at rapping, appreciating people in in the Christian scene. I guess at at what point did you start like taking it seriously and like I'm gonna make this my thing and like take off and pursue it as a potential career? Like when did when did that happen and then how did that lay the groundwork for for connecting with Goatee Records?

speaker-1: Well when I was sixteen, maybe fifteen, I'm trying to remember, you know, there was a pretty there was a lot of trouble in in home. My parents were splitting and I my mom really encouraged music, I think, as an outlet for me. And I bought a bunch of gear I didn't know how to use, took out a loan, got a full time job. I don't I don't recommend this to anybody. I dropped out of high school, staying school kids. But, you know, given the circumstances I was in, I I threw a lot of my energy, ⁓ whether foolishly or not, into music. I mean I was working full time when I was sixteen at different jobs and getting my GED. So I had been I I finally got to a point where I got, you know, I kinda had like some some passes at making beats that I you know had like the old school MPC three thousand still have it with the you know the floppy discs and all that and I was learning really how to like you know fell in love with the listening to old records, finding great loops. ⁓ you know, I could play a little bit on keys, but I wasn't great at it. I was really just an okay producer, but I I knew I could work really well with what I had in that and and when it came to like, you break beats and loops and that sort of thing, I really enjoyed that process. I mean that was kind of my sweet spot. So finally got good enough, played a few shows at a young age, you know, we booked our own shows and I remember we booked shows before we even had any music and so we were like scrounging to make music 'cause there was like this, you know, youth pastor who had this like Christian nightclub that said he'd let us play, me and my crew, and so we were like, Okay, we gotta go. I got this beat machine now, let's figure out how to make beats. We put together a show, I'm sure it was okay or horrible, I don't know. And then But once I got some stuff that was like really good and feeling really good and I was, you know, collaborating with some different folks, I I f I I I went to a proper studio and recorded an EP. And that EP also I rec did one song with this guy who was used to be the drummer of DC Talk. He's a great guy and he was here outside of outside of, you know, South of Columbus. And my mom knew him and my mom introduced him 'cause at the same time, you know, little footnote in the story, my mother was ⁓ running a Christian death metal label, helping run a Christian death metal label. So

speaker-0: I came across that fact. You're the you're the first guest you're the first guest on the show to have a Wikipedia page. And so I came across that fact on Wikipedia. And you know, you can't always trust that's not true.

speaker-1: True by the way, I need to clean up I don't I just need to take the time to clean up all my digital the the the the ⁓ all the stuff that's wrong online, but yeah.

speaker-0: So that's why I like, there's this seems kinda like a reach. I don't know about this fact but

speaker-1: That is true. My so my mom I grew up I I mean I'm trying to like keep stay on stay on s ⁓ like I said, I can get real scatterbreaking. I'm trying to stay on the on to the story. But I will tell you a little bit about that. My mother ⁓ we grew up a pretty pretty fundamentalist, I would say, slightly cultish at times, series of churches. But one of had said to my You know, my mom was, you know, there was no no you know, I think at that point Christian Rock would have been considered of the devil. You know, there was nothing I didn't grow up watching like a lot of like pop culture references are lost on me because I think we just didn't I didn't we weren't allowed to engage with any of it. But my mom had heard

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: A song on radio, on Christian radio, and she loved the song so much. And she had grown up going to Woodstock. I mean, she says that she might have been in the actual Woodstock documentary video. Like, you know, she lived in that area. She grew up on all that music. But she had heard the song. It was like a from a Christian rock band. And she

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: She's just started crying. She loved it so much and meant so much to her. So that same band was touring, was playing the state fair and she g ended up winning tickets to the state fair. So it was like she she was like, We're going to this show. And it was it was weird. I don't remember why me and my brother, we were young too, but we ended up getting backstage passes, but my mom didn't. I don't know. It was weird. I don't remember. Maybe she gave us the two special tickets. I just remember eating a couple pieces of cubed cheese and wondering why are we back here and being front row for this Christian rock show at a state fair. And it was like and I remember being like, ⁓ man, this is pretty cool. Like, you know, you're like ten or eleven, these bands are like rocking out. You're like, this is pretty cool. I was like, I bet you mom is gonna be real upset. And so we were just waiting for mom to be real upset about the show. And we met her outside, me and my older brother. Met her outside after the show and she'd made some friends and they were talking. And we walked up to her and she looks at me and I mean, she goes, That was awesome. Huh. And then it went from like, you know, CCM Christian rock to like it got harder and harder and harder. And before I knew it, she was like deep into like the Christian goth death metal scene. And I don't know. She just loved it. I don't know. She was working through some stuff on her own and

speaker-0: Ha ha ha.

speaker-1: I think the music just moved her with some stuff from her past and it was just like, you know, you're you're a ⁓ you're a metal guy, right?

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm I'm more into like the you know, they they always get like specified and like niche niche niche niche down. So I'm more into like the the Christian hardcore

speaker-1: Yeah. Which is funny 'cause my mom my mom made a joke one time to my friends who were into hardcore music and she said, Well, once you Christian hardcore guy or say once you hardcore bands learn how to play your instruments, you'll be metal which I didn't really understand till later 'cause I think there was a level of technicality to metal music. Like some of it was like it was almost like listening to like classical music. I mean it was you know anyways.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: But like my buddies, my buddies would be like, Man, my buddies would play it in like hardcore bands or like punk bands would be like, Your mom's music scares us, man. Like I mean, I'll send you some stuff, but it was it was like so any

speaker-0: Anyways Is is Zhao in the I feel like they were a big band during that time. What's that? There's a band that I'm I'm just now coming into learning more about named Zhao. Z O A I think. Say Xo. Zao.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I think she was even before that. Like I would have to remember some of the bands, but she I don't think she she I wouldn't say she ran the Christian death metal label, but she worked with the American wing, helped I think really oversee that process of some bands coming from like Australia or like some Norwegian dark metal Christian bands.

speaker-0: Like newsboys, you know.

speaker-1: so yeah, I'm trying to remember when the line went to where we could listen to. It was always very confusing. The rules were always changing. But it went from being like, No, we don't listen to you know, they're just trying to mimic the world to it being like the heaviest stuff on the planet and my mom encouraging me to like, you know, pursue Christian hip hop or just hip hop. And ⁓ she yeah, so she had made some relationships here in Columbus with all the other bands and she would You know, I pr you could have her you know what? You should have her on here. She'd be a trip. You would enjoy it. She told me though that ⁓ so she introduced me to a gentleman by the name of Rick May, who was just this awesome dude who championed so many acts here locally, really helped people get on their feet. I mean, just saw to the earth, amazing dude. And he was the drummer for DC Talk at the time, but

speaker-0: Sure, definitely.

speaker-1: I went down and recorded one so I did a bunch of songs here in Columbus and then I went down and recorded one song with him and he took that song and passed it along to Toby and Toby really liked it. And so Toby went in and, you know, gave it to the rest of the the the the decision makers. And so one thing had led to another from that, you know, I did a stint in L A but I started getting calls from you know, some I can't remember how the relationship formed, but the old manager of Grits Dirk Brown, super cool dude. He w he championed my stuff. And so there were a couple of people who were really, you know, at that time kind of, you know, helping me get into that conversation with ⁓ Toby and Joey. And yeah, I remember I was living in LA at the time during the ⁓ year before. I remember seeing Y two K postcards everywhere 'cause it was like ninety nine. When were you born? Okay. So you probably don't remember that, but

speaker-0: I was born in ninety four. No, that was it was a little before my time. But you know, it's it's now we've reached ⁓ we've reached that that cultural point where n you know, that that demographic is now making art and making movies about Y two K and I've seen multiple movies now use that as like a thematic point.

speaker-1: But well, it was so yeah, it was super interesting time. But I I got ⁓ came back 'cause I somehow ⁓ I forget how it ⁓ ha completely happened, but I I arranged a a showcase during GMA and so I played a show. I played some shows during GMA, I think it was nine in it would have been nineteen yeah, ninety nine. And I I'm I'm trying to recall. But yeah, a couple of labels were interested, but I I loved goatee. I loved a lot of what they were putting out. You know, Grits was great. It's another classic late n like later nineties, mid nineties, but you know, I was a fan of Grits. Out of Eden, you probably don't remember any of these bands, but R and B group. They had some at that time I think Johnny Q Public and Christ Safari but they had a really cool they just everything they did was super cool. Go to was just I don't know. I I I was excited to be a part of what they were doing and they ⁓ they offered me a deal and so

speaker-0: In two thousand, Are We There Yet hits Christian bookstores everywhere.

speaker-1: Everywhere. We might have even been in media play some in some cities. I like I like that I'm the only guy with a Wikipedia page that's been on your show. That that makes me feel special, man. Makes me feel like I've derived.

speaker-0: As you should. ⁓ well here's a here's the thing. I I wanna learn a little bit more about how your music evolved from Are We There Yet to ⁓ Rubanic and and where you're at now with it, but this was something funny on Wikipedia that I came across that I'd love to get your thoughts on. Something there's a quote on Wikipedia that says John Rubin, once thought to be a Christian version of Eminem. First of all, I don't think you would ever say something even remotely close to that about yourself. I don't think you would label yourself as like I'm the Christian version of this or Christian version of that. But I would love to get your thoughts on that mindset of like first of all, I don't think filmmakers can do that. I don't think there's like I'm not the Christian Scorsese, you know? I'm not even close to Scorsese's level of talent, but But you know, there's n even whoever is at that level, Dallas Jenkins, he's there's no way he's going to market himself as anything other than Dallas Jenkins creator of The Chosen. Yeah. But it's such a common thing for music especially. And I could s I mean maybe it could happen in filmmaking, but I could see it happening in other art forms as well, of maybe designers or or painters or illustrators or or whatever other mediums are out there, but especially it happens in music. I'd love to know your perspective on that and and how you feel about that sentiment.

speaker-1: I think I don't feel much about it at all, I guess is the way I would say right now. I think I can understand why they did that. And I'm even friends with I think people who helped put those charts together. Back in the day I certainly wouldn't have liked it 'cause it just felt like we only existed to kind of be a substandard version of the artist you really wanted to listen to but couldn't because your parents wouldn't let you, so they gave you here. If you like Eminem, you like John Rubin, the truth of the matter is is you might, but probably not because 'Cause I remind you of ⁓ and ⁓ and if you really wanted the Christian version of ⁓ and ⁓ you're gonna be a little disappointed with me. So it was kinda set I think us up as artists for failure in a lot of ways 'cause it's just when you're you're overly trying to div define something and instead of letting somebody experiencing it as it is, you know, you're you're trying to like you're clearly trying to engage a little bit in the culture war and send, you know Don't listen to that guy, but listen to this guy. And yeah. I think that never worked for me. I mean, I'm I remember people doing that way back in the day in the early nineties, being like, Hey, if you like ⁓ you like ⁓ these rappers, you're you're gonna love, you know, they would give me like DC talk or something. I was like, I don't like this. I don't think this is very good. Which is ⁓ which is funny because it was it wasn't that it wasn't good, it just wasn't what When you're telling somebody who doesn't, you know, you didn't clearly understand what I was into or the culture in which I was like attracted to, and you try to give me something that actually is when I go back and listen to it, is actually pretty good. It's actually really good. But it just it went the wrong competition. It's ⁓ it's unfair to both it's unfair to everybody in that in that process. But that might just be how I took it in. Maybe it was useful for people because they did it.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: I think it was well intentioned and so I don't really have strong feelings about it at this point.

speaker-0: Yeah. And you kinda you kinda tackle that a little bit of in your album John Rubin with your song Secular Music, I feel like you get into it a little bit there already. I mean, even that sentiment of like giving you an option, ⁓ I forget the the whole lyric but

speaker-1: Was it ⁓ I had no choice but to be alternative?

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you couldn't listen to secular music.

speaker-1: I think I no, I I've written a ton about that. I think about that that ⁓ I probably say it better in music than I do on a podcast, but ⁓ you know, I think I talk about it a little bit in the rebonic on the song Mainstream. I think I probably was having fun with that idea. But I think a lot of that also has to do with the insecurity it can draw out of like, you know, Christian artists who really wanna be known and stand on their own, but You know, they kind of are there to serve a purpose that's being driven by, you know, the industry that's paying to have these records made. And so there's this interesting tension that I think a lot of people always felt. And for me, it it was always a weird mixture of gratitude. And probably poking I would want to poke at the absurdity of it a little bit. That would probably be anything and any endeavor you take if you kind of look at the edges of it. It's it's you you gotta be able to find the humor in it, you gotta find the absurdity in it. And I think it's kinda hard for me at least, it was a little hard to take myself too seriously because you're sort of like like I I joke about like, you know, when your green room is like the nursing room at a at a hip hop show. You know, I'd be doing hip hop shows. I'd be like, guys, we all we all we're all aware of where we're at right now, right? Not saying it's bad. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm it's and matter of fact, it might even be super meaningful and interesting and we can like there's something really like gives you an interesting perspective. Like like we can really like but like let's just recognize that there's pictures of like Noah's art. And there's like I'm sitting in a rocking chair.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, right. You're like perfectly describing my my childhood nursery right now.

speaker-1: Yeah. Right, ⁓ right. before we go and play a show at seven PM and get done by eight thirty and our after party is at Denny's at ten. You know what I mean? Like there's clearly a difference between what we're doing and what our counterparts are doing at the club. But they're not going on 'til one in the morning. And we're living in two different worlds. So like we gotta be honest and have enough self awareness about what all of this is. But does that make the art any less legitimate? I don't know. I think that's something that every you know, a lot of rappers, rock rock and roll musicians, whatever, I think everybody wrestled with that because, you know, there was always a sort of underlying feeling that it was less legitimate than what was going on in the clubs thirty-five miles east in the actual city and not the weird suburb you were playing. So like I think these are all the the the realities, you know, I kind of just as an observer and someone who was in it I like to write about it 'cause I think it's an interesting perspective. And since I only write about what I see and experience, then that's gonna be the stuff I would write about because it was an honest reflection of what my life looked like. And for better or worse, I shouldn't maybe I should have, you know I mean that's not the only thing I played, but yeah, it was a good part of

speaker-0: Yeah. Well it's I think it's fun that you explore that in your music and you're not afraid of that, especially in your your album John Rubin. And that it feels like a very pointed album at just like self reflection at your your history in in time as a a musician within the Christian space. And something that you know, we we briefly talked about this as we wrapped up our music video. Something I really appreciate about your music is that you're able to balance both like the Silly and F you're able to balance that very well with like very deep, very introspective serious moments as well. And like that can exist on one album. But you know, when we were talking I brought up like you know, your your song treats can exist simultaneously on the same album as Freedom to Feel. And, you know, I growing up ⁓ within you know the Christian subculture in in Pentecostal spaces and and all of that. ⁓ you know it was it was always really refreshing to have that and be like, ⁓ yeah, I'm just having fun and then the next album I'm like deeply thinking about like what I'm feeling and thinking about like themes that would put me on a course of self reflection. And so I think I that's an aspect of your music that's very unique in the Christian space and it's it's very like I I think some guys in the current landscape of Christian rap and hip hop and and I feel like there's some guys who just lean to one or the other but feel like they don't necessarily do both. And so I'd love for for that sentiment just to talk a little bit more about like from starting from like are we there yet all the way to to John Rubin the album and you know even what you're potentially ⁓ what's on the horizon. I'd love to learn about like just a little bit of your your process with creating when you look back at your music, you know, how do you feel about it, the journey of it, ⁓ how you've seen yourself evolve. There's a lot of threads in in that question, but I'd love to get just a little bit deeper on like your reflection on your music.

speaker-1: No, I mean I've I think I've been thinking a lot about that lately. And I think I think sometimes I avoid talking about that sort of stuff because I feel so dramatic when I talk about it. And I don't like being a I don't love like I hear it come I like I I inherently understand it and then I hear it come out of my mouth and I'm like, You sound like such a tool when you talk about that. I think it's easy to live in in your head and sometimes, you know, when I get into writing mode I can get a little nutty. Unless I just write songs like One Two Barbecue, then it's easy. Not easy, but it's That's that's more like almost like writing a script or something. I don't know how to put it. ⁓ but I think for me, you know, as a young kid I would write and when I would write poetry or I'd write these things, I don't even necessarily know, you know, it wasn't really a matter of whether they were good or bad 'cause a lot of it I mean I genuinely mean this I don't think is very good. But I think a lot of it was a means to just process I mean I used to journal all the time and it was just a means to process what was going on in my world. Like it was, you know, and I think learning how to write it, figuring out how to actually like communicate it. you know, rapping, poetry, whatever that would be. Was a real deal. Like it gave me like an outlet to like, you know, cope and also like meditate on the things I wanted, you know, like shape my mind. I think I talked a little bit about this at, you know, Hardfaith. You know, at the same I was writing Rubonic, which some people would consider a very heavy album, I think, thematically. I was also writing I got asked by ⁓ Mercy Me to write a song for their album com not write a song, write a just an A bar. verse for a song they had coming out and the the song was just like such a positive song about gratitude and goodness and I remember like thinking like ⁓ if I cannot force myself to meditate on the goodness of God and be grateful for like eight bars something's gone really wrong. Like that has to be also a genuine expression of who I am as an artist. I and if not I need I need to make it. I need to make it a genuine expression. And so I remember meditating on that for that day, writing that verse, you know, it was just a small little verse, so it didn't take a ton of time. But you know, it really it was really informative to me that those two things can exist in the same space. You know what I mean? Like you can write a song like candy coated razor blades off Rubonic, or you can or you write a song, you know, that that little verse I wrote for that song. And I think so for me it was much I always enjoyed those challenges of what I can put my heart and my mind to And you know, and even being able to change ha the outlook on something through what you would meditate on and what you would focus on. And so, I mean, I think there's times when I can tell that I'm too I'm too deep into my own world and my own troubles that I need to I need to shift my perspective and writing will help me shift my perspective. Or sometimes it's like, No, I've got this thing that if I don't figure out how to write it, it's gonna come out in other ways and like I need and so I go into those those moments. you know, that are dark and I work that out and you know, and and I think these things gotta kinda exist together and I think to me that's the ⁓ you know, I would say that's something I I actually am proud of, you know, I mean but it definitely can make for some like very like manic records. You know, one moment you're like, ⁓ throw your hands up and that's when you're like, ⁓ you know, whatever. But I you know, I I kinda think it all exists together and it and it works together. And I think it's so for me a l I think a lot of that is also used as a tool to kind of change my heart and my mind and what I focus on and you know, remembering like, ⁓ yeah, you you you need to be grateful. You need to remember that no matter how ugly you think th things are in the world or the situation might be tough, you g you gotta be able to focus on gratitude and just the simplicity of being grateful to God and being grateful for life and, you know, just really simple things that I think are much harder in practice and you know, that you know, like and it's beyond just sort of like a intellectual conversation. It's a discipline and so for me, you know, when I'd write, you know, I think I would you know, I would almost need to like if I if if something was really, you know, like an an intense moment that I was writing about, sometimes I would want to jump out of that with something that was very just like, you know, silly and fun and throw your hands up. You know. But never, never about toxic soda.

speaker-0: If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the Printing Ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed that we're planning to launch later this summer.

speaker-1: Never about that.

speaker-0: If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create, with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description, and if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business, or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the printingox. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the Creative Chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. Alright, back to the show. Yeah, you know I feel like right now with like my experiment with the podcasting world with with Creative Chapel feels like kind of a a more serious show. I mean obviously there's a little bit of levity. We're

speaker-1: ⁓

speaker-0: cracking jokes here and there, but you it's it's meant to be a place of like reflection on creative process, theology mixed in with testimony and figuring out how that all meshes into creating and crafting work that reflects our relationship with God, that glorifies him, that that yeah, is is just, you know, exploring creativity and faith. And so it feels a little bit more of like a a more serious topic with, you know, mo moments of levity in the show. And then simultaneously I launched a show ⁓ with my buddy who is planting a church in Detroit, ⁓ and that show is called Sunday School Slackers. And so we just like hang out, have fun, ⁓ talk and s we try to loop in that talk into like some meditations on faith and how God can interact with that. But it's mostly like Just us having fun. And and so it feels like those are two compartments of my life. Like there's like the creative, introspective, serious dude over here, and then there's like the funny, joke cracking, crazy dude over here. And those two now need to live in two different worlds w when I express myself in online spaces podcasting. But I was thinking about this when you were talking, is that like in general it feels like the art of crafting an album is difficult in today's world. That's like very singles based, TikTok world and And so it's it's less about crafting like a a holistic experience with an album, more about like here's a compilation of a bunch of singles that popped off online. And so yeah, to to jump from like introspective to funny and fun, I it feels like how life is. Like like in reality, I c you know, even our conversation so far has been like, you know, these like going up and down of like having fun and then introspective. ⁓ but that's like how most of my conversations go with my friends and And so to ha like be able to balance that on an album I think is a really cool talent and ability and and I feel like it's an area that a lot of artists probably get too insecure to try. ⁓ or they do what I'm doing of like w we'll just keep I'll make a funny album over here and I'll keep a a deep introspective album over here and those two will be different. So yeah, I just appreciate about that about your work and that like, you know, th there are so many times just growing up and like doing yard work, blasting Either professional rapper or boy versus the cynic and or yeah, just like I'll be weeding and like having fun bopping along and then be weeding and being like What what is cynicism? I'm in middle school. but

speaker-1: Yeah man. All the thirteen year olds thought I was super deep. No, I I appreciate that, dude. I you know, I think I think I always appreciated the film world so much. You know, I think I I always wish I'd have been better. It's it I've actually been nominated as ⁓ for as a director. And I don't really know how to turn a camera on for a music video. But I always worked with I loved I loved being a part of the process and I would, you know, collaborate with a buddy here on like, you know, writing treatments and, you know, and and ⁓ helping oversee like the process of just like the vision of how a a music video back when you could still get budgets for music videos and I always enjoyed that, you know, with my own music. So I always just have a such a you know, when I write I think I I th often think of like, what's this gonna feel like live or what would this look like visually? I you know, I I kind of been, you know, like, you know, almost a bunch of mini scripts, you know, in my in my mind. And so sometimes the stories are ridiculous and goofy. But I love that stuff. And then You know, sometimes they're more ⁓ reflective and you know, whatever Yeah.

speaker-0: question. I remember a couple years ago coming across this humany dot TV Instagram. Yeah. I'd love to know more about that and and what was the like decisions there.

speaker-1: Me and ⁓ well it's my buddy's company, but he brought me on and another buddy of Mars and we worked on a bunch of curriculum. And so we we ended up capturing quite a bit of like kids content but and anything from like pre K to like high school, but the ⁓ you before that even came it to fruition we had I w I was the voice of a of a of a robot in this show called Well, it was like originally he he called a ring beller but then it was called Crum and Unk and ⁓ it was sort of ⁓ these two characters so I it was fun factually a funny story, like 'cause I don't know, have you ever done any puppeteering?

speaker-0: Other than like just kids church kinda

speaker-1: I don't know if we talked about this, but man, it's hard. Like he it's hard for me, and it's maybe because I'm not that strong, but he had asked me to come along and join him for this this is a while ago, but we ended up in Florida at this conference. This is the first time I ever gave a puppet show. I mean, I'm I mean I knew nothing in churches, nothing like that. And I had this huge puppet I had to manage while talking and learning how to do puppets, puppeteering. There's like five thousand educators at this anticipate. So my first puppet show ever. It's like, hey, like like I'm not very strong and my I'm like trying to like it's tough, dude. And and there's a whole art to it that I didn't you know, y you get into that world, you realize, man, there's a lot of skill that comes with like really executing and making these puppets believable, which I don't think I did very good at. But

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: I ended up being the voice in this show and ⁓ and it was cool. You know, we it got picked up a few different places. I can't I can't recall off the top of my mind, but it'll it was ⁓ the thing that caught the attention of the curriculum company. And so yeah, that was fun. I did that for a while. So I I can send you a bunch of really fun stuff we did. Because there you know, we we we did quite a bit of it. But ⁓ that that that was ⁓ I think I'd I I I've worked on that I wanna say since like two thousand and eighteen. And it might have been might have been later than that. I'm bad with timelines.

speaker-0: Speaking of being in shows, you are in Spencer Fulmar's movie, The Days Are Evil. How is it being an actor in I don't really know anything about your role or or the other cast members, but ⁓ Spencer's been on this project for a while.

speaker-1: I really like Spencer man. Like we connected and we've just had some really great conversations. And I forget I think I re I think I I might have texted him when I knew he was working on a Christmas movie because I really like I really like Christmas movies. I like the good ones, I like the bad ones. I'm the guy that'll I'll ⁓ I'll binge watch some Hallmark movies and just feel great about life 'cause I know how they're gonna end up. I just I enjoy knowing that like the soup kitchen's getting funded.

speaker-0: Ha ha.

speaker-1: Someone's like realizing that the city wasn't like I like all the bad plots that people have made a million jokes about that I'm Yeah, I get it, but I like I like the world is so crazy that it's just nice to know some things work out during Christmas in these movies. Now I'm not saying Spencer's movies are really good and they're different than the Hallmark movies. But I I told him I was like, Hey man, any cr any Christmas movies you want me in, you let me know. I'm I'm coming up there to be in your Christmas movies. And then he's like, Hey, I don't I don't have a Christmas movie, but would you wanna play the role of a of a counselor in this ⁓ trilogy they're shooting, which is, you know, pretty serious stuff. But I ⁓ said yeah. It was of sort of like ⁓ let's do it, man. And so I went up there and and they said I did good. I don't know, we'll see. It was really fun hanging with the guy. Yeah, I mean we'll see. We'll see. I I I think ⁓ I try not to overact. Sometimes I would imagine I underact, so I don't know.

speaker-0: I'm super pumped to ⁓ We'll see. Yeah, and now you've started my gears turning for making a Christmas movie with you, so

speaker-1: Yeah, like I'm telling you man, anybody out there, like I would I c if I could make one Christmas movie a year, I'd be I'd be I'd be thrilled. That would I would call it a life. That's a good existence.

speaker-0: Yeah, so I'm super pumped to see you in Spencer's movie. And this so that kinda leads me back into us connecting at Hard Faith and doing one two barbecue. I'll share the story of how that came about. I'm I'm a bit of an opportunist in that ⁓ if I if I know where I can find someone that I want to work with, I'm gonna be there and connect with them. And so that's kinda how I connected with Ruslan, that's how I connected with some other guys that I did music videos for Metro Detroit, and so I saw that you were gonna be in LA for the film festival, and I was like I'm gonna be there one way or another. If I'm volunteering for just one day or the whole whole thing, I'm gonna connect with John Rubin and try to pitch him something to do. And luckily you had just you had just released One Two Barbecue and I'm like, ⁓ this is easy. This is just a layup for me in that like you have a new single out, you need content, I haven't seen any yet, so like let's just do it. And so I approached you. I I made contact with you and I kept making contact with you throughout the thing and just checking in on you and and you're perception of the music or the the film festival and and then eventually I w I did the ask of like, Hey, you know, like, you're in town, I'm in town, I'd love to make some content for one two barbecue and and shoot some reels and this is the idea I had was like just cloning you and getting some props of barbecue ⁓ and just like doing some reels and then I'd be like, And it'd be fun to like just do it at this film festival right now and get a bunch of film festival people in the background and And you like that idea but it became like just a little too little too late in terms of like timelines and things. But we started talking more at the like the after party for the last day and luckily you were in town for for a few more days on your trip into California and so we were able to arrange for you to come down to San Diego and shoot and I just picked out some random park and I grabbed a a friend to to help me shoot and yeah, how was how is your your experience of ⁓ I

speaker-1: was awesome man. I think I think I was like what I liked about you is that you were just like down to do it. Like I I think for me with some of my challenges as I've gotten older and I have to like break out of this headspace sometimes is like you can just like it's fun to conceptualize everything and then when you're like okay we're actually gonna do it, okay. Well you know, and you gotta think through that whole process. You can kinda just stay in your head with an idea. What I love is that you're like, hey we can shoot this like in the next few hours at the film festival. You were like I was like, Man, well, and I I think I had some I think ⁓ Spencer had given me a few things to do there, so I don't think we had time to do it. But the whole thing just like I just have such a deep respect and admiration for for filmmakers and so the fact that the whole thing could come together like that and you know, we ended up in a park in San Diego and knocked it all out in one day and it's super fun. ⁓ I'm getting nothing but really great feedback from it. It's just been a great t like I I just like it just fits you know, I I'm I'm proud of my videos and it's just nice that w this piece too is just like I it just fits the I think the the catalog well and it's gonna be fun to pull out every every summer when it's time to barbecue. So I think it turned out great, man. And ⁓ I I forget your ⁓ buddy's name. It's just super cool. He brought some great shots to the c to the whole thing and

speaker-0: Yeah. Dance, yeah.

speaker-1: The fact that you were able to knock it out and we got it done. I mean it's like a real music video, man. That's a real music video.

speaker-0: Yeah, I have a ⁓ a knack for doing pretty lo fi music videos and trying to make them look as best as possible. So it was it was a fun challenge and and being able to like just grab all the props real quick and even explore some new techniques for me in the edit was really fun. And you know, it's with one two barbecue, ha have you done any other music since John Rubin, other than that?

speaker-1: No, not other than the kid stuff. That that's the first thing I've done in a long time. And I really like that song, man. It's just gonna be a it's one of those songs that I just feel like it's gonna be fun to just consistently bring back around. Like I I think it It feels like a pretty fun theme that I think a l you know, people can get into. What I do love too about this video is how it just feels very intentional. Like like you said, you you knew what you were working with and so you shaped it around what you were working with. Instead of trying to make something, you know, larger than life, you you really honed in on the you know, how to just make this thing look e exceptional within the framework we were given to work and like, I don't know man, I thought you did a fantastic job.

speaker-0: Thank you. Yeah. And it it's funny when you get into like the filmmaking process of like you know, they they say for like featuring films, there's the there's the film that you write, the film that you produce and direct, and then there's the film that you edit. And so you basically have like three films that you're making and it's just evolving through all this process. And so it is funny thinking about like just doing the ⁓ the treatment that I made of like here's all the ideas in my head and you know If if we had more time I would have loved a done like more throwbacks to some of your other music videos. Like I wanted to get an ice cream man for your for your move, doing a callback to move. ⁓ and then I wanted to do like

speaker-1: Yeah, ice cream ⁓ do not move was the cheerleader. Did I play Duck Dug Goose in the park?

speaker-0: Or yeah. Do not Yeah. I was trying to like link in other ones ⁓ and I wanted to do a gag of like dipin' dots and it it'd be dippity doin' dots.

speaker-1: You know, man, you're coming to Detroit, so when you when you move to Detroit, I'll ⁓ I yeah, I can always find you another music video to do.

speaker-0: Yeah, let's do it. I'm always down. Always down. And so I'm I'm curious into like ⁓ sounds like you might have some some music on the horizon. Can you give us a new peek on behind the curtain?

speaker-1: Nothing, you know, ⁓ I'm just kinda formulating how I wanna release some stuff, but I I've definitely been working on some songs and I have a nice nice little handful of tunes that I've stockpiled and yeah, man, I I think I think I've enjoyed playing some shows again and so I think I'm gonna do some more shows and yeah, we'll see we'll see where it goes. I'm I've been having fun kinda getting back into the zone of writing and You know, it's ⁓ it's ⁓ yeah, ever every every time I'm like I'm done, this will be the last re I I think I've said it in my records. This is gonna I mean I I have said it in my records. This will be the last record I ever made. But it's like every f every it seems like every three or four years I'm like, I feel like saying something again. Or I feel like writing something again. I got I got I got some things I wanna get out there, so you know, we'll we'll see. Let's just say next year. I think we're gonna have some new music. Maybe even before, who knows?

speaker-0: Awesome. Yeah, well I I can't wait for more and I think your fans would be excited for it. You know, it's been really cool seeing the reception two on two barbecue and and people wanting more and asking for more and and you know, it was cool seeing like a fan at at Hard Faith Festival come with all of his C D booklets of all of your albums. And I was like I was jealous. I like, Man, why didn't I do that? I don't even know where those are right now but it was such a cool little thing but yeah.

speaker-1: You know, dude, it's it's been interesting. Like when I I I didn't know if people would want ⁓ but I d I took some CDs with me to these shows and like people were really into ⁓ Like e even some younger younger kids who I think it's kinda fun, I think, you know, to see younger younger folks getting into like the more, you know, tangible like artwork, physical pr packages, yeah, like tapes, CDs, vinyl, definitely vinyl. So it was fun watching watching people get into that. So I I actually have a bunch of CDs that I'm like play some shows, I'm gonna bring these along and see who wants ⁓ I'll give you I'll tell you what though, because because you directed this music video, I'll give you whatever CDs you need. You just let me know.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Great. Sounds good. I am I am missing a few. I don't have the physical copies of a few but I've been listening digitally. But that was the I think at at word of mouth I started transitioning to to digital so but John, thanks for taking the time to talk. It's awesome, you know. I've been saying this around the internet through the promotion of the video, but ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: You know, I've just always been a a big admirer of your work and a fan of your work and to now be a collaborator and and to work on something with you is like a dream come true. And so if if middle cool if middle school me could see me now, he'd be like freaking out and thinking that I made it. ⁓ and I'd have to tell him, You did make it, but you're also broke, so deal with that. But ⁓ you know, I'm I'm super pumped for what's on the horizon for you and and new music and I really hope that you know, really hope we can get a Christmas music or Christmas movie under our belts together and maybe some other stuff. So more music videos.

speaker-1: Let's talk about that Christmas movie and then we you know, maybe we can robe Spencer in.

speaker-0: Yeah, for sure, definitely. Alright, man. Alright, thanks. Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.

speaker-1: Thanks, man.