speaker-0: Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Hello and welcome to Creative Chapel. I'm your host Chris Mack and today I am joined by Efren Esqueda, the owner of Shepherd's Coffee here in San Diego. And we're gonna talk about the craft of coffee and being a faith forward business. Efren, welcome to the show.

speaker-1: Hey, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be on Creative Chapel. I've seen your content looks dope and can't wait to share my story. Great.

speaker-0: Thanks, man. Yeah. I I came across Shepherds ⁓ by a friend of mine named Joel McGuinty. ⁓ and he reposted some content you guys were throwing up. Yeah. and my wife is a Barista by trade. ⁓ and so we're always on the hunt for a new coffee shop and and looking for the our next favorite spot. ⁓ and so we got to stop in a couple weeks ago and we connected for the first time. ⁓ and I was just so impressed by being a faith forward business in a industry that feels often ⁓ leans to one side politically, typically. and but is also often like you walk into any coffee shop, you're gonna see someone like doing a Bible study or like pastors are always meeting up at coffee shops. But yet they don't ever really ⁓ at least here I would say in San Diego, I would say in my hometown Metro Detroit where I'm from ⁓ I don't see a lot of like faith forward coffee shops. I would say maybe in Texas where I've like traveled a bit. ⁓ had seen that in the Bible belt a little bit. But ⁓ yeah, I was just super impressed by by Shepherds and you you have like a very welcoming vibe, it's low-key, it's not like super in your face. It's like we're Christians here to like impose upon us. But ⁓ yeah, and then not only is your business just cool and being faith forward, but then you have You've made like I've I've never had your drink Black Lamb, which is lavender or black sheet. ⁓ the it's lavender and charcoal latte. Yeah. And like that is now my favorite drink. I've had that only at your shop and I went up to LA ⁓ like a week after ⁓ Yeah, no it wasn't it w it was it was fine, but like I was surprised to see it 'cause it's the first time I'd ever seen it. And so like

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Not only are you just a faith forward business and being cool, but like your coffee's good. And that is like super cool. ⁓ and and awesome to see. And it it's a like now that I'm thinking about like, you know, you have your favorite spots that you like to go to. ⁓ but like Shepherd's is now definitely in the rotation of like if I'm thinking of where to go, Shepherd's is in the mix. ⁓ and so our friendship is still like kind of growing and and we're still getting to know each other. So I'd love to like just know more about your testimony or story and how do you

speaker-1: Of course, man. I mean, before I jump into it, ⁓ it's funny that you say like Christian coffee shop. We of course it the the location we're in, they do lean one side politically. And not even just that, but just when it comes to the being religiously affiliated, it's like a lot of people don't want to hear about it. And one of the things as a mission we always made it to be was we wanted to make sure that we were not a cringy coffee shop because You look at a lot of Christian businesses, they're they're kind of cringe, you know, they've got scriptures on the wall and it it's cool, I love it, you know, you're you're honoring the Lord. ⁓ but I want it to, you know, really stand out and I think we've done well in that. And thank thank you for s for those words. But

speaker-0: Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright, back to the show.

speaker-1: Yeah, a little bit my story. I grew up in a single parent household. ⁓ father was around, he was just in and out. ⁓ just to really don't have too many memories. ⁓ fun ones, you know, like a father, son would have. And ⁓ yeah, we grew up on dependent on welfare food stamps, just in a very, you know, poverty-like neighborhood. We yeah, so my mom was with another so kind of backtrack a little bit, my mom's side of the family. She was with someone else before she met my dad. My dad was with another family. So ⁓ long story short in that area, they ⁓ you know, got together and left their families and to create which is a crazy story within itself. But that's how my brother and I came. I have a brother, he has Down syndrome and myself, I, you know, was born from the family and I grew up in that. My mom was addicted to alcohol and drugs and alcoholic. ⁓ she was a crystal meth smoker. My dad as well introduced her and they kinda that was life for me growing up, right? ⁓ liquor bottles, whiskey bottles on the floor all the time. ⁓ this I would see crack pipes all the time. Wow and a lot of drugs in my household. So I remember growing up, I'd always copy my parents smoking out of a pipe as a five year old. Yeah. And they would tell me, like, no, like that's not for you. Like, you know, they they would hit me and and ⁓ it was like, I mean, you're a kid, you know, you just kinda copy what you see, right? Right.

speaker-0: ⁓ wow.

speaker-1: So I want to say about middle school, 12, 13 years old, I got introduced to the faith. My friend, I was in a soccer team, my friend invited me to youth group. I went to youth group and I met a new community. A community far different from what I'm ever used to. These people were nice. These people were loving. These people talked about God. And there was no craziness of drugs and alcohol around. So I quickly fell in love with the community and I learned about who God was. I didn't grow up in the church. So I I went to a youth, ⁓ like a what do you call it, those youth camps, right? And I met the Lord there. I encountered Jesus Christ, the love of Christ for the first time in my life. And it was a feeling that it's inexplicable, you know, you just don't know how to explain it, but you you know that feeling when you've experienced it. And I remember seeing visions, very vivid visions of what life could be. in the in outside of the drugs and alcohol. And I remember clearly actually my I have a half sister. Very we're very close. She had an abortion. And I remember that night clearly I saw the Lord I didn't see him face to face, but I saw him carrying a baby. And that baby was the baby my sis my sister ⁓ you know, aborted and the Lord spoke to and that was hurting me at the time as a 13 year old. But told me like, hey, he's in heaven now. He's with me. Like you don't have to worry about it. So going back home, ⁓ I take the gospel with me, sharing it with my family. Mom, this is what happened in my life. This is what's going on. As a thirteen year old, you don't really have a huge turnaround. There's so much she did as in life, but it was more of like, Hey, I'm I'm gonna take out the trash. It was simple stuff that I was starting to do that my mom was like, What? Who is this kid? He doesn't do this, he don't pick up his socks from the floor. I was doing that stuff. Now and ⁓

speaker-0: Which is like just simple, you know, obeying your parents. Yeah, exactly. I mean teenagers even if they're like even if they're in the church, you know, struggle with that. So that's

speaker-1: Yeah, and there it goes to show you it's fruit. It's fruit from encountering the Lord. Yeah. And now you're doing things that biblical principles ask of you, right? So started doing that. I invited my mom to church. She never wanted to go. And then I would say about maybe a year or two later, ⁓ my mom's on a hospital bed. She's over drinking way too much. ⁓ her organs are failing. Doctors tell her, Hey, your your mom, she's well, they tell her, Hey, you're not gonna Like you don't have much time. Your organs are failing. And they give her about a six month like kind of life sentence. Like, hey, this is it. Like that's all you have left. And I remember going back home from the hospital that day, just thinking to myself as a fourteen year old, like, man, like how am I supposed like you can't comprehend this as a fifteen, fourteen year old. Yeah. And you're just thinking to yourself, like, what is it life like without a mom? And and I just couldn't mar my head around that. So I began to ⁓ I remember driving from my dad was on the driver's seat, my mom was on the passenger seat. I was sitting in the back of my brother. And on the way there to home, she tried jumping out of the moving vehicle. And we had to hold her back. We like pulled over. It was chaotic. And then we get home and my mom's just going crazy. She hadn't had a drink of alcohol in like four days. And she was convulsing. She was going through withdrawals. And I don't know if you ever seen what withdrawal looks like, but it's crazy. These people who are addicted and don't get what they need, physiologically, their responses, they're physically, they just it's it looks like they're crazy mad people convulsing, just don't know how to handle themselves. And I remember that was happening and I just it was eating me away. Yeah. So fast forward another few months later or a couple months later, I think she was like she couldn't walk anymore. She was her I remember her lips being so chapped, she couldn't speak. Her tongue like was a it was like this really weird purple color and ⁓ someone from church invited her to a a breakfast. She went to the breakfast, she had nothing to lose she says, and she showed up and there that day I remember her calling me. And I was I was a skater back in the day and I I was skating my friends and she calls me and says, Hey Miko, she's like, you Ephra and I I ⁓ I received the Lord into my heart, but she was crying and crying, and I was like, ⁓ like that's awesome. As a 14-year-old, you know, you're not like, okay, that's that's great, like I'm happy for you. ⁓ but it wasn't till the day after where she wasn't craving anything anymore. And that was kind of weird. My family was like, What the heck? Like, who is this person? Yeah. We go back to the hospital. The doctors see her, they do the tests on her. Doctors come back to This is something we've never seen before. We don't understand why. Wow. But your organs are completely fine. Like completely healed. And it wasn't until then I really started to take God seriously because it wasn't man who did this. It wasn't by her own strength, but it was only by the miraculous power of a heavenly father that we have. And since then that I my life changed. I thought my life changed when I was 14. We're 13, you know, first introduced to Christ, but this was like different. Yeah. This was I was seeing signs and wonders in front of my eyes that I could not believe, but totally think, hey, this is what a real God does, right? And yeah, like our lives full one eight turned since that day. And I want to say it's perfect life, but five, ten years after that, ⁓ I graduated high school. First in my family graduated high school, which is crazy.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: My mom, she she dropped out of ninth grade. My dad came from Mexico, didn't even go to school. Her their parents are like, dude, they don't even know what school is. Wow. So it's like first in my family, I thought that was a huge achievement. But then I was like, I can do more. Let's do more. I went to college, went to Point Lamanaz University. ⁓ class of twenty nineteen. I finished my college education. And I'll kind of go back to what happened in college to start the business. But after that, I ⁓ twenty nineteen

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: graduated college, then went full time ⁓ as a real job, right? You know, got my nine to five, was working as a resource counselor. And inside of my heart I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. So I stopped doing that, went full time in business. At the same time went back to school for my master's degree. And I got my master's in organizational leadership. So bunch of school, bunch of, you know, college, starting a business and all of these achievements, I look back and I don't think about it being something that I did, but I saw it as something that it's what I can do through Christ. Because I wasn't supposed to be in this position of finishing my graduate program. I even went as far as going into my PhD can like candidacy program. I dropped out because it's lot of work. But these achievements, I look at them as God, only you can because I was supposed to be another statistic. And just, you know, gang violence, drugs and alcohol. I grew up putting as a child putting crack pipes in my mouth. But look where I'm at today. It's like that didn't happen for me. And only God, only God would save me from something like that. Right. And but yeah, like that's just my story. And then I mean obviously, you know where I'm at right now with Shepherd's Cough, you know, like it's a whole story within that, but As far as like what my God story looks like, it's only God can do something crazy like that. It's just saved me from drugs and alcohol. And but yeah, going to school, college 2017. So it's my second year, third year of college. ⁓ I met a few friends. They they were into coffee. And I was going to school for physical therapy, a lot of chemistry in my background. And I saw like the scales, I saw the aeropress, the chemics, the V60s, and I was like, Do you like I want to learn more about this? And brings me memories because I see a scale. I'm like, dang, went from looking at my mom way out crystal meth on a scale to me weighing coffee onto onto a scale. And it's just like these thoughts always came into my head. I was like, dude, am I crazy for it to think about this all the time? It's like, nah. It's like that was my life. Right? So ⁓ yeah, I started learning about coffee, the brewing methods, how water interacts with coffee. What does that look like? The science behind it, the at the molecular level. And I fell in love with it. I was like, do I need to I need to know more about this? So my friends, you know, showed me everything about what there is to coffee. I invested into a small espresso espresso machine. It was like a Mr. Coffee from Walmart, the Target. It was like 30 bucks. And I started grinding my own coffee, buying different coffee stuff, and just brewing my own coffee for two, three years. Got a Barista job in college, started learning more about there. Then I got a a job at Pete's Coffee, started learning my learning teaching myself a lot of things through there. And at the same time that's when I was finishing college and I felt in my heart that this is not college. I'll finish it, but the physical therapy route was not going to be my story. Like I don't think I'm called to do this. So but in my head it was I just felt a still voice saying like you're you're gonna have a business in this. Mm and I knew that was God, right? I knew the Lord was telling me like, hey I have This this track of entrepreneurship for you that you're gonna step into. And I didn't believe it because I had no idea what to do. I no one in my family has ever done this. I didn't know who to learn from or what steps to take, right? But what didn't stop me was from activating the dreams, the things that I have in my brain, in my head, to put it onto paper and pen onto a paper with a pencil. Like no one's stopping me from that. It doesn't cost me money. But I could write out my dreams. I can write out my ideas. I can draw my future cafe. What do I want? What do I like? You know, what is my my people were so caught up with their lifestyle for the future, but I was caught up with the dreams that God was placing in my heart. It's like, what does this look like for the future? And I remember show friends in college, hey, this is what what I think my coffee shop would look like. This what the menu would be if I had a coffee coffee shop. They're that's dope, you should do it. So that's I started kind of going in that direction. I dropped out of the physical therapy track and I just finished college, did that, finished ⁓ my undergrad, then I invested the only cash that I had to into a a nice espresso machine like La Marsoco Lenin Mini and and started doing events. Started pushing events, doing weddings. Hey, my first event ever.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Was at a ministry night ⁓ just with pastors. And I told the one of the one of the heads that hey, like if you buy all the coffee, the milk that and the syrups, I'll serve coffee for free. Let me just put my name out. And at the time I knew it was Shepherd's coffee. So I started doing that. And I had a business partner, gained a second business partner. ⁓ there's three of us running the business about four months into the I started business in 2020, ⁓ four months in. And then things started picking up. But it wasn't until I had to actually pay bills, right? I wanted to get married, I wanted to do stuff with my life, and coffee was not doing that for me. Yeah. So reality hits, right? And I have to think of an idea how how am I gonna propose to my future wife, my fiance at the time, or my girlfriend at the time. And what does that look like? Where are we gonna live? Like I don't got anything on me. So mm I started scrolling.

speaker-0: No Blamar Zoko and that's

speaker-1: Yeah. So I was like, you know what? I'm just just gonna slow down on this and actually take life seriously in my head. That's what I thought, right? Mm-hmm. So that's when I got the regul the the real full time job. I got a nine to five and I started doing that. But I was so miserable. I couldn't do it. And that's one of the things that I've learned in my walk with the Lord is that when you aren't doing things outside of his will or outside of what he's calling you to do, say you're gonna feel it. You're gonna feel that drag, that pushback in a way where it's there's I mean I feel pushback today, but it's a different type of pushback where it's like, dang, like God, or what is going on? Why why do I feel so sad, so miserable? And it's just I was not walking into the purpose that God had for me. So I proposed to my girlfriend at the time and she'll probably say yes, married today. Two kiddos, one on the way, or one baby here, second on the way. And and yeah, I think I remember going back, come back from where what I proposed, ⁓ I was gonna look for another job, find something else that I liked. So then at the time I started applying to different jobs that were in more of the field that I liked, you know, hospital vibe, I don't know, maybe a clinic or something. And I got an interview at a job. I remember I was sitting in front of the interviewer. And she loved my resume. She loved everything about me, how I spoke, how I presented myself. I was wearing a suit, like a little tie. And I was like, dude, I was not who I am. And I played the part very well. But deep inside, I felt the same still voice that this isn't for you. Like you're gonna be a business owner. And I remember talking to the lady and I told her, hey ma'am, like I'm This is kind of weird. I literally said this, this is weird, but I don't think I'm gonna take the job after all. And she was like, ⁓ okay. She was so happy to give me I said, Yeah, thank you for your time. And I literally stood up, shook her hand, and walked out. I remember walking out of that hospital, sharp hospital, and dude, I was just I felt so broken. I was like, God, like why can I not get a job? Why why am I walking away from this opportunity? Never leaving the hospital.

speaker-0: Good job.

speaker-1: crying, crying my eyeballs out, crazy crying. And I remember ripping the tie off, like, this isn't me. And I, you know, talked to my fiance at the time and I say, hey, like, this is what happened. I can't do it. And she said, then go back to where God called you. Mm. The last time he spoke to me was to start the business. So I went back all in. Went to go do what I can to do to make this business happen. And Fast forward in that those next two years, we opened up a brick and mortar location 2021. It was the biggest flop ever. It was a failure. It was an Elkahone. ⁓ at the time our were three business partners. One of the business partners decided to leave. This ain't working out. So it's me and another the other business partner. After two years of of trying to make or it was like a year and a half trying to make that brick and mortar location work out. Or it was actually just a year. We got we butt heads. It didn't work out. It was a horrible partnership. And yeah, I just didn't we got a huge fight and we split. I took over the business, but also I took over the entire liability and debt of the business. So ⁓ 2022 was the hardest year of my life. I began to ⁓ turn to drugs and alcohol at the time and to cope with a lot of things I was going through, anxiety, depression. I remember driving on the freeway having to pull over because I thought I was choking or I thought I was couldn't breathe in my own car. And I remembered August of twenty twenty two was August twenty-fifth was the hardest day of my life. I was driving the freeway and I blacked out in the freeway and I got in a car accident. And I I remember just kinda like it all happened so fast and like woke up off the side of the freeway. And I was like, what what happened? And I remember panicking and just going, you know, didn't know what to do. The other ⁓ people they went to the hospital. They're okay, they everything was turned out to be fine, but I was under a lot of stress and just something's wrong with my mental health. I knew something was was going and and again turning to drugs and all to cope with everything. That same day I got a letter from the IRS over owing over sixty thousand dollars. Wow. And I just I didn't want to live anymore. Like yeah, I did not want to live anymore. I being married already, trying to figure things out, living, you know, day by day, not knowing how we're gonna make it to next month, how we're gonna make it to tomorrow. I just I just couldn't do it anymore. And I've never, you know, attempted suicide or anything like that, but I played with the idea a lot. Just the and it was it was like a 'cause there's like a step of thinking about it and then actually contemplating it. I wasn't that pre I wasn't like far into it, but I was thinking about like, dude, life would be better if I just ended everything. Crazy thoughts, man. Yeah. And fast forward to December of 2022, ⁓ I decided to go on, we went on a trip, vacation, my wife and I, and thought, you know, I get a break from everything, come back, and things are the same. Nothing's changed. So I decided to quit Shepherd's Coffee. ⁓ 2023 January, quit the business. I gave up all my clients, I let the team know, hey, we're we're done, it's not happening anymore. And then January 28th, around that time, if I remember exactly what day it was, but we had a warehouse. And in that warehouse, I was just cleaning up everything. And I remember mopping the floor. And as I was mopping the floor, the craziest thing happened. I felt the power of the Holy Spirit come upon me. And it wasn't the it was the same exact feeling that I felt. when I was at youth camp, that same feeling. And I remember I felt the love of God just come onto me. And I remember crying like a little baby. Crying. And I felt I heard it wasn't an audible voice, but I heard God tell me. It's like you were never meant. No, you say you are not a quitter. It's like you're not giving this business up. So you were never meant to own the business. You were only meant to steward it. And in that moment, I realized everything clicked. This dream is far too big, far too vast for me to even try to take it on because it's a God dream. This is a God, this is God's business. And I try to take ownership of the entire thing and it crushed me. It messed me up. And I remember that moment where God freed me from anxiety, freed me from depression. All I felt was joy, was love, this warmth that I would never want, I didn't ever want to leave again. And in that very moment, with that beauty that came in, there was also that conviction. That conviction of I had to go on my knees. And in that moment, I repented. And this I it's sad to know that churches don't I There's very few churches that talk about repentance. Yeah. But like in a way where it's you gotta repent. Because people say, Hey, you love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, you'll be good. But it's like, yes, that's amazing, but the repentance portion is unlock something else to actually allow you to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul. Everything. So I got on my knees and I said, Lord, I repent of all the sins I've ever committed against you. Everything that I've done to separate.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Myself from you, forgive me, Lord. The Lord forgives, but it's that repentance moment where I turn away from what I was doing. And I said, Lord, I give you back my business. I give you back everything. I give you back everything I've won, everything I've lost, all of it. God, I give you back my marriage. And man, since that moment, I've never felt in my life so free. Free, man. Like it's a feeling that I never want to step into anything else ever again.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Because of that feeling that I got. And it's I I I can only say a feeling. I don't know I don't know how to describe it as much, more than just a feeling, but man, that's where my life really turned around. And from 2023 to now, there has been so many miraculous moments that God has opened doors opportunity for this business to happen. I'm talking like from one moment not being able to pay rent to giving my last Dollars to the church because I believe in tithing and offering to the church to God that same day, giving me checks of $10,000, $15,000, $20,000. The way we open up Shepherd's Coffee, the shop, I remember another thing to myself, I have no money. But God said, just have faith. And it's very like we hear that all the time, right? Church, have faith. It's like, well, it's different. We gotta live it. Yeah. It's like no way. Definitely. Yeah. And I remember telling God, I need $15,000 just to open up our doors.

speaker-0: Wow.

speaker-1: I had everything. I just knew there's a few things that I pay to make it happen, right? And that same day, ⁓ I tie I gave a message to the church, ⁓ I gave a word and I was talking about giving your all and you know, giving your tithe and everything. And I thought to myself, what a hypocrite I would be to talk about this, encourage others and not do it myself. So I remember getting off that stage and just crying again. I was like, God, like I was angry at God. I said, God, how could

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: Could you make me do this? And I don't have anything to my name. And that same day, this couple came to us, gave us a whole speech. The sermon touched their hearts. They wrote us a check for $10,000. Wow. Yeah. And they don't know, no one knows my situation at the moment. Like, this is all God. I've never shared any, I I'm not gonna go on stage and tell them, hey, like, I need help, guys. But a few days after that, This girl came to me and she said, Hey Ephren, like I have ⁓ I've been wanting to invest into a business, my own business, but I it's not for me. But God revealed to me that it's for someone else. I prayed and asked God, where's that money gonna go to? And he highlighted you. I said, I wanna I wanna give you some money. I was like, ⁓ thank you. Like in my head, I'm like 300 bucks. Yeah, you know, a couple grand maybe, you know. And I told God I wanted fifteen thousand dollars. She wrote me a check for $15,000. Wow. And then I closed a few clients that same ⁓ week. I from one in a span of six to seven days, I had over $30,000 in my account. Wow. And that's how we really kicked off Shepherd's Coffee in the location, the brick and water location we're at right now. We've been there for a year and a half, and there's just so many God stories that are happening. And one thing that God has shown me through this whole journey. Is that it's not about what he can give us or what we attain for business, this ass, the acids, the the things around us. It's about us giving him our heart. That's what he cares about the most. And then when you unlock that understanding and give your heart to the Lord, things will unleash in your life like you've never seen before. And then there are things that you don't you may think you know what they are, like, ⁓ God, I got a new house. ⁓ I my things are going well for me. No, because that's not how God works, that things are going well or not. It works by the faith, by the good works that he put through your faith, and him knowing that you've fully surrounded surrendered your life to him. And that's the God we serve is that He can give us anything and everything we want. But what would that do for us? Mm-hmm. It would only crush us. Right. And the thing, the plans that God has for our lives. We will not understand. Like I don't I still don't think I can understand or comprehend the the vastness or the the big the largest of what God has for me in my life. I think I know all things are going well at the business. This is awesome, God. But God says you still have not understood. It's not about what goes well for you. It's about the true treasures. And that is, you know, Him. That is the kingdom of God. And until we actually unlock that, we can go through the craziest things in our life and we'll always look back and say, Thank you, Lord, because you've been here with me the whole way.

speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it's ⁓ I you know, upon our our meeting, you know, I'm just like, Okay, I see an entrepreneur, I see a Faith Forward business, I see coffee, which I see as a creative artistic expression as well. So it's like, you know, all that checks the boxes for just being a guest on Crave Chapel. But you know, I completely blind to your testimony. ⁓ and so it's so ⁓

speaker-1: That's a little of my story.

speaker-0: It's kinda strange to say, but it's refreshing to hear because I feel like I'm in a season right now with marriage, with with family and my son, ⁓ with thinking about business. That is it's all very material. Everything is like we're we're in a financial pinch right now. Like basically me and my wife are both unemployed at the moment. ⁓ outside of like trying to do kick start our creative agency again. Yeah. and

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: everything is just so material. I I grew up in a very ⁓ charismatic Pentecostal household that throughout college my spiritual walk and my spiritual growth was very much almost the type of person that was ⁓ so heavenly minded that they were no material good. With that, the the transition into kind of responsibility, adulthood life, ⁓ has just made me more material minded and so I've I've it's been a minute since I've heard a testimony like yours that has really shown the glory of God in in tough circumstances and miraculous ways. ⁓ and there's I think also just certain streams of faith that don't engage with miraculous works like what has happened in your mom's life. ⁓ and so you know it's I always want to make sure that I'm tempering the podcast well to ⁓ be hitting specific boxes of like make sure we're hitting the creative ⁓ a little bit of business, a little bit of testimony. What I appreciate about your testimony is that it so well embodies all of the buckets. there there's no stream of your life that's like you can you can sparse out the creative, you can sparse out the business, you can sparse out the the testimony, but all of it filters into each other. And I think that's ⁓ when we really examine our lives, that's we live an embodied life, right? The Holy Spirit embodies all of us. all all aspects of our being. And so, ⁓ Just really appreciate that your testimony like touches all that. ⁓ and so I to kind of like segue, I'd love to get into the craft of coffee a little bit, ⁓ where you see the creative at work in that. growing up, I was not a coffee dude. ⁓ it wasn't really until meeting my wife in 2019 ⁓ that she was like, if we're gonna be together, you're gonna like coffee. And I'm like, All right, up until that point, I was like, ⁓ if it's an acquired taste, I don't want to acquire it.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: I'm happy with ⁓ Dr. Pepper and Matthew Dew and all that. But ⁓ she's like, Well, you're gonna get in the coffee and this is his, you know, your gateway into it, lattes and mochas and I was like, Okay. ⁓ you put chocolate in it, I can I can do it. ⁓ and so but through ⁓ my marriage with my wife, I've now really come to enjoy coffee. ⁓ and the the craft of it is very interesting to me, of like just the the science of it, the the brewing of it. I'm completely ignorant to all of it. But as a filmmaker, there is something very cinematic about coffee and the the creation of coffee. So I'd love for you to touch on ⁓ what inspires you in the craft of coffee, what do you look to for ⁓ inspiration when you're crafting a drink. ⁓ and so if you could explain things to a novice coffee appreciator in a way that could help me contextualize. When I think of the art of coffee, I think about like latte art mostly. ⁓ but there's a definitely like an art and a creativity in in the brewing and in the making. And so I'd love to to hear and learn more about that.

speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ first you have to understand the fundamentals of where coffee comes from, right? There's different origins, single origins, you heard of like single origin blends of coffee. So it all coffee's gotta come from somewhere, right? It's a it's actually a a cherry plant, it's a type of cherry plant. I don't know the exact names, like I used to go all into this, but now having the biz is kinda like dang, there's so much to it. Yeah. But think of like bushes, flowers, and cherries. If you get two coffee beans put it together, that's actually the seed of the cherry. So now when farmers, when they ⁓ produce the coffee, you know, obviously they plant it, they do a whole, you know, sow reap, all that stuff. It'll grow and then when the time is right, they'll harvest it. After they get it from the plant, coffee goes through a series of processes. Have you heard of honey process, wash process? Or natural processing coffee.

speaker-0: ⁓ I haven't.

speaker-1: So it's it's yeah, there's like the coffee's gotta go through a process before it even gets exported and imported to the roaster's hands. So there's washed honey and natural and that wash is they wash the seed completely and they, you know, go through that process. And then natural is when they leave the the cherry and the pulp and this everything intact and they allow it to ferment and then the honey process where they remove parts of it. and allow the some of the pulp to you know ferment with the seed, offering different flavors, offering different characteristics to the bean as soon as it's ready to be exported. So once they get all that, there's even new things like co-fermenting where they throw in other stuff with the bean. They'll throw in like I know ⁓ one of our producer for relationship farmers, he is he was throwing in bananas and what was it, grapes, I think. Or some some sort of other fruit and just letting it sit with the coffee cherry so that it would get all of those flavors and then they would clean it up and export it. So it offers crazy fun flavors. ⁓ So that after that it goes into the roaster's hands, whoever collects the coffee, which we're a roasting company, so we import it and we get the coffee, we cook it up, it's a roaster, the big machine you've seen in our shop. It goes to sick an oven. I tell people it's in steak. You know, when you get a raw steak, the got green coffee's raw, you put it in the oven, and you get to cook it however you want to cook it. Of course, there is a minimum of how you need to cook it, right? Unless you're just gonna eat it raw, it's on you. But there's a what is it, rare, medium, rare, medium, well done, all those things. Same thing with coffee. It's raw, you cook it up. There's a light roast, medium, light, medium. There's even other like language like full city roast, city roast. Can look into Google with all the information, but there's different types of how you approach the coffee with heat. You know, and then getting the science of it, coffee bean has water activity and this certain density to it. You throw in the oven, it extracts the water, it you know, cooks the bean, certain molecular reactions happen and then makes the bean, you know, turn brown. Literally, that's where the brown color comes from because you're cooking it up, right? And then from light to dark roast, the bean has different profiles that offer different. Flavors and characteristics of what you're looking for. Each of those profiles will taste best with how you brew the coffee. So you grind the coffee into small pieces and you throw it into ⁓ whatever brewing method that is, AeroPress, Chemex, I mean whatever espresso machines, very popular one all around the world. ⁓ but yeah, that's how that coffee comes to be. Now water has a huge role in coffee brewing. If you use tap water, sink water, that'll mess your coffee up, like big time. It'll it like it'll still brew it and everything, but the taste of it is terrible. You'll notice a big difference we use filtered water versus just tap water because of certain metals, certain ⁓ solutes within tap water that'll mess with the molecular structure of coffee. Interesting. And it'll like just it's just not good. Yeah. Right. So that plays a role. The grind size of the coffee plays a role. Like if you want

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: For example, if you're doing espresso machine, you want fine, small, like powder like very small powder like coffee to go into that because time, heat, and the water play a role into brewing that cup of coffee. Especially espresso machine is solely pressure based. So I can get into crazy details, I'm not sure how much you want to know.

speaker-0: I mean I've I've appreciated so far that you've you've described it in a way that's kept me interested. Yeah. I think it's really easy with any technical craft to like get into the weeds. ⁓ I really appreciate that. So far it's been like really interesting. I'm like, okay yeah, that makes sense. I I haven't even necessarily come across like the the type of water aspect. ⁓ like, ⁓ that actually makes a lot of sense.

speaker-1: Yeah, there's so much to it. And yeah, this espresso machine. And then if you want like a cold brew, a French press, you know what French press is? Yeah. Yeah. So those are big, bigger pieces of coffee that go in there. Not necessarily a small piece, because you just put the small piece into the those brewing methods, you're gonna get an over-extracted cup of coffee and it doesn't taste that well. Yeah. So each brewing method has its own grind size, and every brewing method can be manipulated by the water temperature. the profile of the coffee, you roasted in light to dark, and the grind size. Nice. So there's so much to it, man. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, I like I said, I think you you've described it well that ⁓ would make even a person who is not a a coffee aficionado appreciate the craft more. ⁓ and I'm definitely more interested. ⁓ I'm curious into your like roasting in in the roasting process. Again, maybe try not to get too much into the weeds, but like for your roasting process, 'cause that's one thing that like you step up to She Shepherds and you're across in the street from wherever you parked and you just like smell yeah the roast. And it's so good. Like I I've only encountered another shop like that once in Detroit. ⁓ that there are a roaster and

speaker-1: In the shop. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: And it it's just such a a sweet ⁓ and attractive smell. so I'd I'd love to know a little bit more about the roasting ⁓ how you approach it, what do you like to do with it, maybe what could differ if yes.

speaker-1: So when when I I got into coffee, I knew I always wanted to be a roaster. And I knew that because I had I feel like the capacity or like the mind to be able to think that way. Whereas 'cause it's a lot of science, there's a lot of stuff that goes into it. You can learn about it conceptually and do it, but when you really get into the temperatures and how that affects coffee and the molecular reactions and understanding the why behind things. That's when it gets really fun because you can manipulate crafts. You can really add stuff to the coffee when you understand the science of it, right? So when it when we get the green coffee, ⁓ a huge one is is understanding the type of bean it is, where it's from. Usually you know where but that by where it's from. So we get our coffee manguras. It's kind of like a ⁓ I w there's something called s ⁓ hard bean, soft bean. ⁓ that's just how the If you feel the actual green coffee, you feel like some of them feel like just so dense and hard. Other ones feel like soft and light, just you know. And for example, if you go to Ethiopia, they're tech some they tend to be hard beans because of the winter weather conditions they go through. They go through a lot. And there's I I'm not too familiar with the science in that how the bean develops itself. But when you roast it, you've got to take this into consideration because oftentimes You'll need to add a certain amount of heat to the green coffee so that it roasts properly. Other times you have to do go lightly and start a light warmth and then kind of increase it. Other times you just gotta like full blast, bound this, get this thing cracking already, break breaking up. So when it goes into that, it's called ⁓ soaking, where the bean is actually taking in the heat and it's retaining all this heat and it's it's slowly starting to lose water activity. And then that next phase, which is the nice smell you're talking about, because you smell green coffee, it smells like grass. But if you get you start getting to that ⁓ chemical reaction, it's called the mired phase. So in this phase, this is when ⁓ certain molecules are starting to come out of the bean, CO two is starting to come out, different gases, and you get a very bread, bread like toasty bread smell. And that's everyone's favorite smell. That's what a shop smells like when you come in. It's like, wait, what it smells like coffee, but it smells like like Baking, like someone's baking something, and it's it's it's a pleasant smell. And after about six-seven minutes into that phase, you start getting into first crack. So first crack is when the bean begins to split, starts to expand to get bigger for all the you know just the the water coming out, it's starting to you know just fry up essentially, right? So when those cracks are happening, major amounts of CO2 are coming out of the coffee. It's like they're splitting out bads coming out, right? And in that phase, very important phase in the first crack phase because this is when you get your true character of the bean. This is when it's the most easy way to really change the bean profile because some people will add more heat to it during that phase and that'll affect the bean dramatically. Or they'll drop the heat a lot, it'll affect it significantly, or it would or you could adjust the airflow, that'll you know, the amount of air that comes into the roaster and out, that's gonna affect the flavor of the bean as well. So in that phase, it's like development phase, that's what it's called. And right there light roasts began begun and then goes into medium roast. If you allow it to continue, there's a phase called second crack. And that is just the further development of the bean. That's you start getting more like that roasty, that toasty, and starts getting darker, right? ⁓ and you know it's Dark roast, light roast, meaning they it's I think coffee's very extremely subjective. Don't let anyone ever tell you that what a better cup of coffee is, because my mom will drink a dark French roast coffee with some creamer in it, and she says that's the best coffee she's ever had. Or you'll have this coffee snob somewhere come in, they need the lightest roast with co fermentation of this and that. There's any coral, I've heard. Yeah, like crazy, you know, adjectives to it. When in reality it's like It's just your cup of coffee. Yeah. You know, so I used to actually be that coffee snob back in the day where I would be so particular with my coffee. And if it wasn't medium or light like light roast, I would not want it. And yeah, you go building a business humbles you a lot. Yeah. You are humbled quickly and you begin to see that hey, like you you see what matters, right? And in business, people matter. Yeah. Like if if someone doesn't like your cup of coffee, don't be offended. Don't, you know, it's like ask why. Why did you like it? Mm-hmm. ⁓ it's just too sweet. Okay, well we can always adjust that. You know, it's too strong. What do you mean by strong? Like is it too astringent? Is it bitter? Yeah. Well, what does that mean? And and that's where the business comes in where you really win people over because you care for their taste, their palate, rather than tell them like, no, this is how coffee's done. You just don't like it. Mm-hmm. You don't you don't have that acquired taste, right? Yeah. So I mean we we that's that's one of our values, our business, just hospitality is our essence. And yeah, we want to make sure that people get what they like. And we're not a coffee shop for everybody. We're just not. Mm-hmm. But yeah, that's a roasting phase. It's it's very intricate. It can get detailed.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's interesting that you have like kind of a a background that appreciates ⁓ science. I was not you know, I was very like video photo kind of kid growing up. So like the sciences, the maths didn't really connect with me. ⁓ but it's cool that you've like you ha kinda had that in your background before even appreciating coffee. If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the printing ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: that we're planning to launch later this summer. If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description, and if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the printingox. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the creative chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. All right, back to the show. And so I definitely want to get into ⁓ entrepreneurship side of things in a second, but while we're still on the craft side of things, I feel like with with my work in video and filmmaking, ⁓ it's all very technical work. There's a million things that you're thinking about, there's a million things that I'm like conscious of in these cameras right now that I'm like I didn't format these cards, I should have done that. and I have to like make sure the sound is it right, the lenses and focus and everything. There's so much to it that I feel like it it's almost so much on the technical side that I miss God working in the creative side. I could see that happening within a lot of ⁓ laborist jobs where it's very physical, it's very technical. ⁓ but I'm curious if you've had moments of of working ⁓ that you've had little God moments. I I can remember being like a dishwasher and and just through the mundane dishwashing, ⁓ still meditating on scripture and and feeling like I could come to whether it was like ⁓ an illustration, you know, of of washing Jesus washes us or whatever. ⁓ and I think about I don't know if you know ⁓ there's this monk. I think by the name of ⁓ brother Lawrence. I've never heard ⁓ Ought to show you ⁓ he's he's a really cool ⁓ author well a gentleman wrote yeah his ⁓ story basically. And so ⁓ but he basically talks about being serving God in the mundane in a way. ⁓ good, yeah. And so I'd love to hear your perspective on that if you've had moments of like, do you get lost in the sauce when it's like really technical?

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: Are you able to ground yourself into something spiritual when you're at certain points of the craft? Yeah. ⁓ I definitely feel like when cameras are rolling that all the technical is done, and then I can just like interact with an actor or interact with a subject that's in front of the camera. I can or like what we've just encountered already, it's like once I'm in this moment, in the flow, that's when I feel like I can like, okay, God is in the work now. But I kind of miss him when it's like the technical setup because there's just so much. But is there is there a point in the craft that you're like connecting with God and realizing that He's there?

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think that's every day. Every day, like I'm I'm if you talk to my wife, you to ask her like how how is Efren when he's working? I'm locked in. I'm just like lost in not lost, but I'm focused. I'm focused in getting the job done. Yeah, exactly. And it's become it's become it's it's a strength, yes, but it has become a weakness for sure. Where I'm just forgetting about

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: The the mission and the vision that God placed in my heart for Shepherd's coffee. And one of the revelations I got one time that's just still sticks with me to this day is the Lord telling me that our minds, our imagination is the playground where God can interact with us. And and I was like, God, like what how elaborate, like what do you mean? Like, how can I make this a playground? And God showed me that there is There's so much freedom in him when it comes to creativity. You know, we got he's an all-knowing God. He could if you make this decision, he knows what's gonna happen. You make that, and it takes away the fun, right? But it's in reality, God wants us to imagine, get creative. What can it be? And the huge I used to live, I still live to this day by this, but this why not factor. It's like, if I want to be a millionaire, why not? How can I get there? Why not?

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: And I think God allows us to to have these dreams because it comes to show who he is through all this, right? And when I'm, you know, making coffee, I'm working, I'm sweating in the shop, we're, you know, busting out dreams left and right. And there's always someone who comes in who we miss out on sharing the gospel with. By we're so locked in and doing our work when in reality we just had to say hi. Just love on this person and their life would have been changed. Yeah. And this actually happened one time where I I this had I I dropped the ball big time with this guy. He ⁓ it was actually like sometime last year because he was for Comic, he was here for Comic Con. and he walked in the shop and he was very chill, non chanaly. Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up, man? And then I asked him, How's your day going? And he says, ⁓ it's okay. And you know, when you ask people how their day is, they like kind of give you a response. I s just said, like I you know, like ha ha like yeah, what you know, just kinda left that at that. Yeah. And then he calls me out. He says, I always get that a lot. People just laugh when I say that. I was like, ⁓ shoot. I was like, ⁓ dude and again, I was just locked in doing work. I didn't think about this. And I was like, yeah, sorry, like, I mean, is your day like was it a hard day today? So proceeded with right. And he says, Yeah, like just two days ago I was diagnosed with ⁓ stage two cancer. Bro drops his news on me. Yeah. And I was like, ⁓ my god. I wanted to cry in the moment, man. I was like, What the heck? Like and I just giggled. I giggled at his okay, right? And it it hurts my heart because sometimes people they don't know what others are going through and we're so just passive with people, right? And we never actually take the time to know them, know their heart and why they're in our presence in this moment, right? And that day, I will never forget this day because since then I told my team and I told my tent, hey guys, we are never ever to just pass on someone who comes. I don't care who they are, I don't care if you've seen them 20, 30 times in the shop. Yeah, we we need to be intentional when we ask them. How their day is. And if you're not gonna be intentional, don't ask them how their day is, then just tell them how can I serve you today. Yeah. And when you ask how they are, you better be ready to not give them a word, but to make sure that you carry the response and steward it properly, right? Because I never want to go through that feeling again of just being careless of someone's response on how their day was, because someone's life is on the line. Yeah. And Yeah, so in that moment, God showed me like this is why I wanted you to have shepherds. So that you can love on people the way I've called you to love on people. You're not here for the money. You're not here for the big grandiose goals. You're here to serve me. And I need you to serve me by loving all my people. Yeah. And that's that's how it is. Like, so yeah, I've had a lot of those moments. They've gotten better, but it still happens to this day. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's ⁓ that's heavy. I feel like on on a film set ⁓ it's so chaotic and it's such a mess and you're you're rushing and there's so much to do and so it's so so easy to miss out. ⁓ or like let the stress seep in and and lose your composure. ⁓ but that's definitely like ⁓ something that I I'm needing to prey on more is like the intentionality of like In the stress, in the setup, in the in the technical aspects, inviting the Holy Spirit into that and being like if if the Holy Spirit's just getting me into a flow state, like cool if the Holy Spirit's like, you know, set up your camera but have a conversation with somebody like like that's cool and ⁓ that's something I wanna be like more intentional about. Yeah. So it's it's good to to remember like ⁓ even as just a On the customer side of things, entering a business and being like, you know, how is the person behind the counter doing? ⁓ especially when you know you're married to somebody who's behind the counter, ⁓ you know, like my wife walking into a coffee shop. And so, yeah, that's super good. ⁓ Yeah, I'd love to ⁓ transition in there ⁓ into entrepreneurship. There's I think a big heart of Creative Chapel, you know, you're gonna get a lot of artists and creative types who are like, I'm just about the art. about the creative and that's super cool. ⁓ more power to those. And there there are probably worship leaders that come under the that would be in the audience that be ⁓ intentional about like just being in the worship. but I think a big heart of Creative Chapel is getting to the place where your art and creativity that God has gifted you with and the dream that God has gifted you with ⁓ is a vocation. That is a part of you making a living off of what God has blessed you with. And that's what I'd like to encourage people with. ⁓ that's where I'm trying to get to. I'd yeah. ⁓ pursuing things as a hobby is fine. but I'd like to be in a place myself that I don't have to do that. ⁓ and so you have a lot of ⁓ good perspective into entrepr entrepreneurship that you've already shared. ⁓ So I'd love to to hear a mix of of practical, like just solid entrepreneurship, as well as like inviting God into that process. And I think a good ⁓ a good way to to start this conversation off, ⁓ this part of the conversation would be to ⁓ talk about when you're transitioning from just the technician. to like I'm just about the craft. I'm just I just love coffee. I'm just a barista who's like just enjoying being a barista, to now switching hats to I'm now the business owner, so that my technician hat has to come off and that the love of the love of the game, love of the craft is now kinda like tempered by I gotta like walk in and do business stuff. So I don't know if you have perspective into that. You struggle with that.

speaker-1: Definitely. ⁓ I like I like that question a lot because no nobody asks that question. Like everyone who sees me where I'm at today, they just see me as the business owner, right? Efren films shepherd's coffee, he built this, right? But nobody ever knows how this came to be. And one of the most beautiful things I appreciate about God is that even if it's wrong or right in his path. He allows you to do it. He's not gonna force you to no, you can't do that. That's not what you're called to do. You're not gonna build a business. He allows you to go through it and through those lessons, he'll walk with you in it and he'll direct you. God has always redirected if if you've surrendered your life to God, you should have no fear in trying new things. You should not have any fear because he is a good father, and what does a good father do? He redirects. Even though I don't know too much about what it is having a good father, and I love my dad, he's still around today, and and I appreciate him and I love him in the way that I know how to. Yeah. But one thing I've learned is that a good father is going to take care of you no matter what. And although he may not disagree, he may not agree with certain things you do, he loves you enough to allow you to go through it to show you why. Because what is it like of a father's love to just tell you no all the time? No, you're not gonna do that and never understand why. You'll never grow, you'll never outgrow it. So guess what? You gotta go through hardship. You have to. The that crushing where God is just going to allow you to go through it, financial stress. God, how am I gonna balance this? The family, Lord, like what am I? He's there with you. It's hard to believe that sometimes because sometimes I'm like, God, what are you doing? I'm not, I don't wanna go through this, but. He's allowing you to go through this crushing so that you can slowly be can't become the man that he's calling you to be. And through your experiences, you will gain so much wisdom. Where now when people look at you, dude, Efren's a dope business owner. But it's like people don't know what I went through to get to where I'm at today. It's like they see the outward picture, it looks great, but no one ever actually asks what. What got you there? And the first the first ingredient to getting there was passion. Was the passion for the hobby. I fell in love with coffee. I started doing it. And I knew it was from God when I kept hearing the voice of this is a business. But God, I've never ever started a business. But you can, you know, it's that encouragement from God. So starting, you know, this whole journey, I saw that. From year one to maybe two and a half years in, I saw that the passion wasn't gonna help me take that next step. It was the understanding of the science of business. Right? There's business has a science to it. Understanding numbers. Stuff that dude I don't wanna learn. But guess what? You have to. Yeah. You you don't gotta be the best mo professional person at it, but you gotta have an understanding of what numbers look like. What first of all creating budgets. Now, with God into that is God, what does it look like to create budgets? God is not concerned about how much something is. He's c remember going back to the heart. He's concerned about how you're gonna steward the one dollar you have. That's the biggest thing is stewardship. Because He's He's rich, He's full. Of the goodness of who he is, what he wants is your heart. So, God, when I walk into this, what is my heart looking like? If I'm struggling with money right now, okay, God, what do you want to teach me through this financial stress? Because I've been through it, dude. Even to this day, I'm not telling you I'm I'm wealthy, I got everything together. No, there's still a lot of testing. There's still a lot of development in my faith and my stewardship in finances, right? And you gotta ask yourself the hard questions, like. Am I willing to I'd say say this sometimes am willing to go get depressed for a little bit because that's what's gonna happen? Major sadness, episodes of like truly wanting to give up on life, like crazy stuff, crazy thoughts will come at you, like the craziest things you can think of. Like, am I am I even worth it anymore? Is my wife gonna love me anymore or less? Like, should I be doing this? God, what you told me this five years ago. Going through this, like what is going on here? And I think through that understanding that how God really crushes, allows you to be crushed, is gonna show the fruit, the oil of what is to come. Like, man, I went through six years of this and I finally can say that I do this whole time. It's like dude, it's crazy, man. Like, people don't understand what it is to step into entrepreneurship. Like you And and I I don't remember the statistics in it, but people don't don't make it. Yeah. They don't they don't make it through starting their own business. They'll they'll start something and it'll be their side thing for their whole life. To make it go from a side thing to your full time thing, that is the biggest achievement one person can do. Is to make this their real thing. And it's hard, man. Yeah. Like

speaker-0: I yeah, I definitely think about like the the the risk and reward in it of when you take that that first step into entrepreneurship, whether it's a side gig or ⁓ or you're just like full sending it into like making it your main gig, which is kinda what me and my wife were forced to do upon moving to San Diego. ⁓ and we found good fruit in it and then kinda like failed. ⁓ I think that's part of the stats too, is like basically any Any person who is like starting out in business, you're going to fail. Like you're you're going to have a business venture that fails. and it's important to develop the the resilience and the persistence to keep going even in spite of failure. ⁓ and so, you know, like you kinda illustrated, like there is a freedom to fail because not only is God a good father who wants to to teach you and to show you things and give you wisdom, but ⁓ also within that is ⁓ he he can redeem anything. You know, if you have a failed business, if you have ⁓ hardships in your marriage, you have hardships in creative projects, ⁓ if you had goals for a ministry and any of those aspects fail, and you're like, Man, like I guess this just isn't where I'm supposed to be. ⁓ but you still feel like like you did have this calling ⁓ to ⁓ produce something, whether it's a creative work or a coffee shop or whatever, ⁓ you know, God's still going to be like, I've still called you to this. And just because you've failed here, that's only going to strengthen you down the road and give you get you to the place that I've called you to, and I'm still going to be with you to make you more like me. ⁓ to me make you more Christ like. And so ⁓ yeah I think the the freedom to fail is ⁓ is important to remember, especially when you fail hard and the financial aspect is there. Yeah. That's like the the tough situation. ⁓ and so and so it's really hard to to make that first step to to switch out of the mindset of I'm gonna be just a technician who enjoys the craft into now I have to wear two hats of being the technician and the the business owner or maybe business steward would be a a more appropriate word, ⁓ which is something I definitely struggle with, ⁓ and and need to ⁓ pray about and work on. ⁓ and and part of that I think is just like the random things that kinda happen in business that you weren't really expecting. ⁓ upon our first conversation, we talked a little bit about how ⁓ you know the first time I stepped into Shepherds, talked about how people I think you might have mentioned this a little bit earlier, is that ⁓ People didn't appreciate that you were a faith forward business. and I'd love to hear some of the stories that you've encountered of like people coming in and then ⁓ you know, not exactly being thrilled about that. So I think you had some interesting ones. Yeah.

speaker-1: I mean, I start off with the first like two months we were open. ⁓ we never talked about us being a Christian coffee shop. On the contrary, when people would say, Hey, you guys are Christian coffee shop, I'd always respond like, no, like we're we're Christian owners, but the shop is you know just coffee shop. 'Cause I didn't want to be associated like to a church or as a Christian company, right? But God slowly showed me like, hey Like I understand where you're coming from, but this is my business. Whether people look at it as Christian shop or not, that's not for me to worry about. You just do what I do what I have, you know, called you to do. So when people start saying that, be like, yeah, we're we're we're a faith-based company. And we have, you know, little hints around the shop. Our Wi-Fi password is Psalms 23. On the bottom it says the Lord is our shepherd. We have some staff shirts that say the Lord is our shepherd. We have one of our drinks on the menu is twenty-three for Psalm 23. ⁓ we yeah, there's little different things. Even people who are faith-based, they come in, drop stickers off. I'm like, ⁓ that's cool. I'll look through them sometimes. Sometimes there's some weird ⁓ values like people will believe in where I'm like, ⁓ like, you know, maybe not this one. And yeah, and I remember one time I had was two times when it came to the music. So I was playing worship music.

speaker-0: Yeah, fair enough.

speaker-1: And it was a clip of Brandon Lake singing. And he was singing, like, I'm a child of God. I'm a child of God. Over and over again. There's a group of guys in the shop. And one of the guys was looking at the screen. And he was like, Fno, like, this ain't for me. And then he just like runs out the shop. I'm like, dang. And then the other guys were like, just ignore him. He's gonna be okay. And I was like, okay. Another time, ⁓ some dude he was hanging out in the shop. And there was a Bible study going on like in the other room. Cause there's like, you know, if you look at our shop, there's different rooms and they were talking about just a Bible study, Jesus, this, that, and he overheard and he told one of my baristas, like, all everything that they're doing in there is fake. What they believe in is fake. Like, nah, this is you know, he's made some other comments and he walked out. But okay. You know what's funny is that the same guy keeps coming back. He still and he loves us. Like that was the first impression we ever had of him. But he's come to realize we are people who love other people and we're not here to shove down the gospel, you know, down your throat, but we're here to, you know, be an example of faith, right? Mm-hmm. And then this one's a crazy one. Someone went out of their way to email us. I got an email, Hey, are you guys religiously affiliated? And I was like, I looked, I was like, ⁓ sick, like somebody wants to know more about us. I was like, Yeah, like We we're not like affiliated with the church or church organization, but we're a faith-based company. And then and they proceed to say, Okay, well we're gonna take our business elsewhere. And I'm like, ⁓ all right, sounds good. So they dang that's crazy. And then we get comments on our on our content too. Sometimes we had one guy say ⁓ separation of church and coffee. I don't know. Sweet bro. That's crazy. And then and then a lot of my friends, maybe like five other friends, they all commented on his comments saying like, nah, I like both. I like both. I was like sing, bro. Yeah. But we we've had our

speaker-0: Which is crazy 'cause like you know, even if you're like in the world, if you're if you're not a believer, you roll up to any coffee shop and you're gonna see someone have like their Bible, they're doing their devotionals, they're doing, you know, how many like pastors roll up to a coffee shop to be like first connections? Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

speaker-1: It's so so prominent, right? And just I don't know, I guess it's her name, Shepherds. I mean, really I I don't know. I like to believe that we're truly anointed, so the enemy's out hating on that for sure. Yeah. We've had people tag on our ⁓ this is nothing like faith related, but people tag on our walls. We had we had a really sick sign outside of our door and it was beautiful. LED like circle frame, stainless it was like a steel frame and dude it got jacked. Someone stole it and they broke it's it was a big it was thirty six inch or no like twenty four inches big sign and someone broke it and took it with them. We've had yeah, we've had a lot of crazy stuff happen at the shop.

speaker-0: Yeah, I was I was talking with a buddy before the show and and mentioning that we were gonna talk and just talking about like it's it's so strange to me that people would react how they've reacted towards you when on our side of things, like we're just expected to walk up in any coffee shop and just like accept who they are. Or or they'll just be like, Okay, get out if you're you know ⁓ if you're not happy with whatever we're promoting and like There's so many times, especially around San Diego, that I've walked into a coffee shop and there's a lot of just like sexual stuff about whether that's like sexual identity, sexual orientation, or if if it's ⁓ even just like I remember pulling up to a coffee shop and they had like a planter for a succulent, and it was just like a man's waist with a not very detailed man's genitalia, and it's like A child this is at a child's height. Like they can clearly see this. Or it's like a a woman's bust and and her chest is it's just a nude sculpture to put a a succulent in. And it's like there's children in this place. Like people are bringing their children to this and you have no care, no consideration. You're putting it at their eye level. ⁓ and I'm supposed to be just okay with that. Like if I say something I'm supposed to be like just written off or whatever. And I've I've never felt so passionate to say something. and I think once my son probably gets to walking around, I probably will get to that bold of a state to be like, Hey, my kid's walking around, like, can you at least elevate this? ⁓ But the reaction that I expect from that is just like, ⁓ well this is who we are. This is our authentic self. ⁓ if you don't like that then, you know order online or get out. ⁓ So it's it's silly to me that somebody would respond, they would see a Faith Ford business that again, you're you have your clues around the shop, you know, there's a Bible and on the shelf in like a Sunday school or like a Sunday icebreaker kind of yeah, which I thought was really cool. Yeah. and like somebody would walk in and see that and be like, I

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: I don't want that. Or I'm not I'm gonna go to the point of like me saying something is ridiculous to you. Yeah. But I think ⁓ just what you're doing with Shepherds is super encouraging. and to kind of like just end on this note, you're making such good coffee that somebody who is like all that is fake, everything that they believe is fake, and they're like a a regular customer. Yeah. And I think that is that's really the point of ⁓ being a Christian in the marketplace, whether that's through creative works or through coffee or or whatever, ⁓ and being faith forward, ⁓ whether that's subtle or overt, and making something that's so good that the world can't help but enjoy it. Even even despite it being ⁓ a religious act that they don't appreciate. And so I think that is a good encouragement for creatives of business owners to just lean into like I'm gonna make the best product, the best project, the best creative artistic work possible that it is not only is it a a glory unto God and a worship unto God and service unto him and or a service unto the church and ⁓ those who follow Christ, not only is it excellent for those reasons, but it's so excellent because of that that the world is attracted to it. Yeah. And I feel like ⁓ especially in filmmaking, that doesn't always happen. But ⁓ but I think we're getting there with music and kind of been there with music, just not exactly in popular scenes, in portrait and illustration, and it's it's dope to see it in coffee. Yeah. ⁓ because like I said, so many Christians are are attracted to it, to ⁓ the nature of coffee that ⁓ ⁓ that it's great to see a shop that's yeah embodying what the customer base is. ⁓ so well Ephraim, I think we'll we'll wrap it up here. ⁓ thanks for bringing your testimony and your experience to the show. ⁓ it's super cool and a surprise, honestly. Like there's so much like we like I said, our friendship's still building so ⁓ it was so refreshing to to hear your story and and be encouraged by your testimony. Because I I'm in a a state right now that is kind of difficult, ⁓ that has me like a little bit wrestling with God. ⁓ and so hearing your testimony is very encouraging and and helps me ⁓ a lot and brings a lot of things that I'm like, okay, I need to be praying about that. And in the business side, the family side, life side, like all of it. So so yeah, thank you.

speaker-1: Thank you so much, Caes. Thanks for having me here. Yeah.

speaker-0: Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.