speaker-0: Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Welcome to another episode of Creative Chapel, your source for inspiration, curation, and revelation. I'm your host, Chris Mack, and today I'm joined by Cutter Callaway, an associate professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a podcast host of the show Be Afraid, and a coach for creatives navigating the tensions between their faith and creative calling. Cutter, welcome to the show.

speaker-1: Thanks. It's ⁓ great to be with you and ⁓ appreciate you inviting me on.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I first became acquainted with you and your work back in in twenty twenty one on Preston Sprinkles podcast, Theologi Theology and the Raw. ⁓ and as a filmmaker and as someone who was trying to be more engaged theologically, you know, it was really refreshing to hear you on the show and like, you know I I studied filmmaking, I went to a Christian university and then transferred to a Christian film school, but the at the film school the two didn't really intersect very well. and so I grew a ton spiritually at the university that I attended, but ⁓ you know, some of the theological terms that Preston Sprinkle was throwing around, I'm like, I don't really know these terms. but when you came on the show, I like, ⁓ this is like exactly my wheelhouse and exactly what I'm looking for. ⁓ and I'm I'm envious of your students, ⁓ and what you you know, the some of the things that you mention in ⁓ the book Deeper Focus about going to Sundance or going to South by Southwest. ⁓ yeah, super envious 'cause I actually haven't even gone to either of those festivals ⁓ in general, but ⁓ to to go to those with like minded peers who are trying to assess media and film theologically, I think that's really cool and very unique. ⁓ and so yeah, I'm just excited to have you on the show.

speaker-1: Well, thanks. And ⁓ I I'll give props to my colleague ⁓ and co-author on Deep Focus, Craig Deppweiler. you know, we've we've all done different sort of versions of kind of teaching and et cetera, on in this space, but ⁓ it was actually Craig's initial idea to go to Sundance and and kind of be where the the story the cutting edge of storytelling happened. ⁓ and so it was his sort of brainchild that ended up, you know, something that I kind of inherited. And ⁓ it is. It's a Really ⁓ unique, interesting opportunity that I mean, any and all Christians should be more ⁓ engaged in that way of just going and landing in a place where all you know, a whole bunch of people from all walks of life, most of whom are not Christians at all, ⁓ gather around to like appreciate great stories and great storytellers. And it's fascinating to me standing in line ⁓ at any of these sort of festivals, Sundance, South By, whatever. And because these stories are about like. Deeply meaningful sort of human ⁓ issues, ⁓ you just scratch the surface in a conversation with someone in line and spirituality just like oozes out. It's not even hard. ⁓ it just it's so ⁓ on the surface of where everybody's at. ⁓ so it's a really just great opportunity to To experience what it's like to be a person of faith out in the world ⁓ and to actually talk to people ⁓ in positive ways about faith, about spirituality, about Christianity. ⁓ and and that and to know that it's actually possible. ⁓ in the current climate, it feels sometimes I think people feel like it's impossible to talk religion or politics, it descends into something. But actually, when you're talking about a story, about a movie, ⁓ all of a sudden those conversations ⁓ really present themselves in in some amazing ways.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I I think that so often Christian creatives who are trying to be intentional about their craft and intentional about their faith, ⁓ feel the tension like I kinda said in your intro of like navigating like you know, I the only examples I see of of ministry is full time ministry and so it's like should I be a pastor? Should I should I lean into my creative gifting? ⁓ and so in the faith world I feel like we get caught up in like the the four walls of the church that ⁓ we have a very specific idea of of our spiritual life and the conversations that we have about the spiritual life. And you know, we might talk about stories and movies and music there in those spaces, but rarely do we really find ourselves in spaces with ⁓ secular culture ⁓ to engage there too. I f I feel like my friend group is a very critical. Christian. I grew up in the church. My dad was a a youth pastor for most of my life and then planted a church. So ⁓ a lot of my friends and deep rooted relationships are formed out of the church and in the church. ⁓ and so and even going to like a Christian university, Christian film school. All the conversations I were having were kind of in Christian spaces and movie viewing through that. And so yeah, I just I think it's awesome and like you said, to to get into spaces where people might have like a hostility towards faith, but they're open to stories. And obviously this is this is something that Jesus knew intrinsically with his parables. ⁓ and so real quick I wanted to read a a little quote out of ⁓ deep focus and and have you kind of like expound on it and elaborate on it. And so the quote says As our institutions have lost their cultural cachet, stories have emerged as our primary medium for making meaning. Our hunger for story corresponds to our growing transcendence gap. Moviegoers and increasingly churchgoers recognize that story reigns supreme. That's powerful. I I always like I highlight and I end underline and I always do like these little like ⁓ fireworks. I don't know if the camera will t pick it up, but like any time that's like it's like highlighted upon a highlight, it gets these like fireworks. And so that's what I do for when I'm reading. But ⁓ yeah, I really like that quote and I'd love for you to there's a lot of threads to pull on it for ⁓ the hunger for story, the hunger for meaning, ⁓ just the the thought of story reigning supreme. ⁓ yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, there's ⁓ you know, I I think the the actual tagline, Story Reigns Supreme. ⁓ I think I stole from my theological mentor Rob Johnston, and ⁓ then kind of inserted my version of it landing with Story Reigns Supreme. But that whole sort of phrase or that whole kind of section you just quoted, ⁓ it starts I mean at a very basic like human level. our even notion of like Our personal identity is narrated. What I mean by that is, you know, I, Cutter, you, Chris, have we experience all these sort of like random different things throughout our lives. They're not really connected to each other, and you know, and part of how I understand who I, Cutter, am, in in distinction to who Chris is, is this individual is has narrated all those experiences in some way. Now, there's a lot of times where that that story, that narrative gets disrupted. ⁓ so like ⁓ if if you're thinking Thinking about traumatic experiences, and someone who has, for example, PTSD, they struggle to identify that trauma as in the past. It's current, it's like it's right now happening again and again. And so some of the way that you know therapists and others would would deal with it is to go, okay, let's let's work through actually narrating that as a past event that is no longer you know actively ⁓ traumatizing you. So in all these different ways, the way we understand ourselves, the way we Understand our history, our relation to others, is deeply ⁓ shaped and and and constituted in some ways by the narrative that we have created about our lives, right? So humans just are storytelling, storied, narrative people. ⁓ and it also makes sense as to why then, as we start thinking about like, well, what does my life mean? How do I actually ⁓ understand it mattering? ⁓ that too gets dropped into these broader narratives. ⁓ ⁓ In the past, and whether it's US culture or other other societies, institutions held those kind of stories, right? So we're we're about to celebrate America's 250th anniversary, right? That's all and and depending upon which side of the aisle you land on right now, you are telling different narratives about what it means to be an American. That's a story that we're telling. And our connection and our identity as Americans is is is in our Even our arguments about what it means to be American right now, is an argument about which story reigns supreme, right? So as it concerns Christians, though, especially in the US, there was an age in which ⁓ the church, and that's what I was getting at in that phrase that you quoted, ⁓ had a kind of cultural prominence, ⁓ a respectability that a lot of people, even if they weren't like active churchgoers, The narrative that shaped their identity and that they shared with others was largely a Christian one, ⁓ rooted in, you know, ⁓ some sort of Judeo-Christian kind of narrative. It was familiar to a lot of people, it was the the kind of the source book that people would draw upon to make sense of different things happening. And ⁓ in the last, you know, 75 to 100 years, that has has waned. ⁓ the church as an institution is no Longer ⁓ as prominent as it once was. ⁓ People aren't actively engaged in that story in that same way. And so my sort of theory, hypothesis, or whatever is, but that doesn't mean that the desire to narrate my life and the desire to find meaning through stories evaporates. It just means I have to go to other places. ⁓ And one of those places is this cathedral known as the movie theater, where I gather with a bunch of people and we ⁓ allow our imagination. And so it then becomes societally why we reference things like ⁓ the Marvel cinematic universe as the touch points for understanding life as opposed to the story of Moses, right? ⁓ and and and when you go into conversations with friends or whatever, you're making references that this is now a shared narrative ⁓ that we can actually ⁓ look to as we kind of reflect on on in terms of like how does my life mean in relationship to these stories. So that's kind of unpacking that ⁓ that more pithy ⁓ saying that could be condensed into exactly what you read.

speaker-0: Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel Podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright, back to the show. Having you explain all that ⁓ reminded me ⁓ one of the first like video essays I did on YouTube. ⁓ was dissecting this quote from director George Miller who did Mad Max and you referenced Mad Max or like the or Deep Focus references Mad Max Dury Road. And so around the time that that ⁓ film was coming out, Miller was interviewed and he said, I believe cinema is now the most powerful secular religion and people gather in cinemas to explore things collectively the way they once did in church. The cinema storytellers have become the new priests. They're doing a lot of the work of our religious institutions which have so concretized the metaphors and their stories, taken so much of the poetry, mystery, and mysticism out of religious belief that people look for other places to question spirituality. ⁓ I feel like it's it's interesting that somebody like George Miller, who like I don't really know George Miller's faith background or his his relation to faith. ⁓ but for him to recognize that, ⁓ which ties in directly to what you were saying of of the institution in the the prominence of a place to experience stories and and transcendence with that, is such an interesting aspect of filmmaking specifically, ⁓ and and how films really just really combine all other art forms into ⁓ the experience of a film. ⁓ and so with that in in kind of the what you were talking about and what Miller is talking about, I think there's this element of transcendence. And I think that's something that ⁓ when we read scripture, we don't get a whole lot of moments that like or at least directly say like this is a transcendent moment. There are a lot i of transcendent moments that we can point to and think of. But when we look at cinema and maybe some other religions, ⁓ they they have more of this ⁓ emphasis on a transcendent experience. Or even you look at drugs or or ⁓ various vices like that. ⁓ I would love to get your thoughts on transcendence and and where you ⁓ see transcendence in scripture of of people ex encountering God ⁓ and how that kind of relates to our experience of art in this cultural season.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good question. I so my very first book was called Scoring Transcendence. ⁓ it's it talks about ⁓ the importance of music in film. If we're gonna say film is it w offers opportunities for transcendence, you can't make that argument without ⁓ talking about the music. And and one of the ways I set that up is and and it doesn't necessarily mean ⁓ that

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: If there's no music or something, you know, that or there's little music that it's not possible. Because one of the arguments I make there is the very the the very structure of a movie assumes and requires a sense of transcendence for it to even work. And what I mean by that is ⁓ and and I use the analogy in ⁓ with music is there's these different kinds of music that happen in a film. ⁓ there's ⁓ the diegetic music, which is ⁓ stuff that like the characters hear. So you hear something on a radio or TV. So that's inside the sort of ⁓ the narrative world itself. Then there is ⁓ either ⁓ depending upon who you ask, there's non-diegetic music, which would be ⁓ what we would think of as the soundtrack, right? This the music that's happening ⁓ that we know the characters don't hear, but Weird, right? Like, why is there just this music playing, right? ⁓ in this art form. And then there's extra diegetic music, ⁓ which is a whole nother kind of layer of commentary on the scenes happening. And so ⁓ there are these different levels of of narration in relationship to what we would call the world of the film and its characters. And sometimes it's really interesting, there are moments when those boundaries get broken by the film. itself. ⁓ Music that's playing on a radio, all of a sudden, ⁓ like imagine a scene where there's some characters driving in a car listening to radio, and then all of a sudden that song becomes extra or non-diegetic. It's it's not happening in the thing. It's happening for us, the audience, out here observing that. And it we totally buy it. Like we just accept it as part of and it it makes zero sense, right? if anybody had ⁓ a kind of soundtrack to their life, it would be Impossible emotionally to handle that. It would just be wrecked, you know. I mentioned that as one example. There's other ways that it happens, but it really you as a viewer, if you're gonna you go in and actually enjoy and appreciate a movie, film itself requires you to kind of assume a transcendent-like thing. It doesn't mean it's theistic or they're talking about the Christian God, but that very setup is like there are different levels of reality that this art form asks us to assume. When you get to scripture, I I totally agree with with that quote that a tragedy ⁓ within not all Christian traditions, but you know, within let's say generic evangelicalism is we do tend to treat scripture in ways that like suck it dry of any of its poetry, its artistry, ⁓ its its difficult and troubling aspects, ⁓ and and often treat it like, you know, ⁓ a a r an answer book or something, or like an encyclopedia or something for faith, as opposed to this living, breathing work of art ⁓ that asks us to come in and and be moved by it. And I don't think that's the fault of of the Bible itself. It's usually the fault of like how we deploy the Bible, how we ask people to engage with it. ⁓ and it and it leaves it kind of ⁓ inert ⁓ and and sort of dead on arrival as opposed to like gripping us ⁓ at at our core. And so ⁓ I actually think the best preachers, the best teachers of the Bible are those that basically the language drug use is they re mythologize the text. 'cause you gotta ask, why do we have Sermons, right? If all you need to do is go, it's just the data of the Bible is all you need. Well, what's a preacher doing? Well, a preacher is trying to establish what a filmmaker is establishing, and that is a moment, an environment, an experience where you can encounter this story in a way that assumes transcendence, right? That you actually meet ⁓ and ⁓ experience and encounter God in and through the actual reading. The renarrating of the text itself. ⁓ And that is also something that film and the best films and the best art does that often we don't allow when it comes to that ⁓ renarrating of the Bible, and that is To leave the hearer, the listener, the viewer with ⁓ answer w without answers, like without clear, obvious answers. There's a lot of complexity, there's a lot of ambiguity. ⁓ there's a lot of stuff in scripture that isn't meant to like walk out with a nice little tidy bow, but instead is meant to like really interrogate us, to to leave us unsettled. ⁓ and you know, the best movies when people like really are moved by them. ⁓ do that. They're not, they don't like treat reality as if it's just like straightforward and easy. It's really complicated and you it sticks with you going out. I have a my next book coming out is called Be Afraid, and it's actually about the horror genre and horror films, and and the kind of analogy between like how do you go at how what does horror do to you and how do we think biblically about that? ⁓ a similar kind of thing, ⁓ argument that I make is that. Man, there are there are many passages in scripture that are deeply unsettling and outright grotesque, violent, brutal, and bloody. And to pretend like it's not, to pretend like these aren't horror stories, yeah, is to completely miss that sort of shocking nature of scripture ⁓ that I think it not only invites but asks us to like. reflect on and dwell on over and over and over, and these are some brutal things. And so ⁓ that tendency to want to kind of make it tidy, kind of here's a three applications, you know, to your life is something that I think is a a tragedy when that happens. But it's also why interacting with other art forms like film is helpful because it goes, okay, well, ⁓ what is it that filmmakers are doing that's really effective and how could we learn from them as we think through ⁓ ⁓ how we communicate the scripture and the stories that are there. So that's a big part of what I try to do, both in my own preaching and teaching, but also in the way that I think through and engage ⁓ film.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'd I personally struggle with leaving an open ended story. and so I'm I'm developing ⁓ a feature length film right now and I I made a a proof of concept for it ⁓ called Sons of Thunder. and I'll I'll have to send it to you, ⁓ the short after the call, but ⁓ you know it's It's hitting a lot of you know, it's written intentionally with a a theological perspective, trying to lead the audience to see and understand that theological perspective. ⁓ and I think it's packaged well and and done with ⁓ it doesn't try to force feed it too much and that you know. That that was my goal. I may have even missed that mark though, to be like more subtle ⁓ then maybe I'm being more over it than I think I did. But in general, like in in doing this show, I send out ⁓ kind of just an info sheet for guests that that you had filled out and I have another guest coming on the show ⁓ next month who I was as I was researching them, they had said that in an interview that they want their work to to be a little bit open ended and and to let the audience explore ⁓ And in hearing that thought I was just like, man, I I really struggle with that. ⁓ and and I think probably part of that is just growing up in an evangelical culture. and ⁓ part of that's probably just also enjoying stories that you know I can see directly the theme that they're the director or writer's trying to get across. But ⁓ so in that yeah, go

speaker-1: interesting point because you know the open-ended doesn't I mean there there's like there's a lazy way to do that, right? As a storyteller, where you're actually just it's confused and confusing. That that's not good. ⁓ I I think even out outside of open end, it's not like good stories only are open-ended or ambiguous, ⁓ but it does seem like there is a a tendency to sort of close off interpretive possibilities that that some find very comforting ⁓ you know but ⁓ but it many times they don't it doesn't invite further sort of reflection. ⁓ and as to your point th it ⁓ sometimes your best ⁓ attempt kinda you know it's not subtle enough or it's too subtle or that you know like I think that's all in the you know the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. And so it it does I think then take on this sense where you can tell often a filmmaker isn't even trying to be subtle, right? Like they're not even going for it. ⁓ and so it's not necessarily like I tried and failed. It's more like, ⁓ I was never even trying. I'm I have such a and I think it's a ⁓ It's either Orson Wells or I remember who ⁓ maybe it's somebody else, but ⁓ maybe it's George Orwell. Anyway, ⁓ has a quote ⁓ that's something like all art is propaganda, but not all propaganda is art. Right. You you of course are gonna have a perspective as a filmmaker. Like there and to deny that is silly. and but when it becomes like an agenda-driven thing, especially when we're saying it's a Christian film, that's when I think it gets problematic. And so you have a lot of Christian filmmakers that feel like, you know, I have to, you know, for example, there has to be a full articulation of the gospel message at the

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Or like all the all the bad guys need to be revealed to be not Christians. And then they if they're good, they they confess Jesus as you know, like all these sort of tropes. and and I just think there's nothing wrong with having those as a story. But ⁓ I gave some feedback to a filmmaker from Australia a couple months ago, and they had this film, and it was a it was like a supernatural horror, but a Christian one, and kinda pretty interesting ⁓ script. ⁓ But even there, I was like, I have I have more they wanted my theological take on it, and that's what people usually get. And I'm like, well, I mean it's it's horror fiction, so I'm not I'm I quibble with your theology of you know the spirits. But ⁓ I go, it's more a storytelling question, and I go, these people go through this like h horrific night, right, where they're you know dealing with this stuff. And at the end, basically everything's cool. And I'm like W wait a minute, just as humans, this would be deeply traumatizing, but the way you told the story, it's like it's a very triumphalist story. Like everything turns out good in the end. And I'm like, but but that's not real to the human condition. the human condition acknowledges ⁓ how ⁓ how Christ actually does address some of those deep and dark ⁓ issues. At the same time, ⁓ we're not there yet, and so we still have these struggles. And I think that's where I think about the sort of closure. Or the tidiness is are you doing it in a way that is still sort of true to the human condition? ⁓ or do you sense that your storytelling is trying to kind of sanitize that ⁓ and avoid what might happen if if viewers walk away going, like, wow, that you know, the name of Jesus triumph, but woo, that was a that's gonna stay with me for a while. So it's something like that. ⁓ but it is interesting to your point of as storytellers. Where did we learn how to tell stories, what good stories are, what's expected, et cetera? ⁓ and yeah, I I'm I'm with you. A lot of us are not we're uneasy with uneasiness. ⁓ and that's that's difficult.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ amongst kind of like ⁓ a over reliance on overt messaging, I'm curious to your thoughts on ⁓ why Christian movies are bad. I you know Me and my wife we went and saw Jesus Revolution a couple years back and once the movie ended, we were both like there was no point that made me cringe. And that was like the high standard, the bar to meet for Christian films. and and you'd had I was listening to ⁓ some s episodes of Be Afraid last night, ⁓ the podcast and you know, you mentioned ⁓ a movie that's on YouTube that I hadn't even heard of that is like a a is based off ⁓ a scripture in Matthew. ⁓ and also you mentioned ⁓ Carmen, which was I haven't heard which's invitation in so long. Yeah, it's f like me and my sister like grew up 'cause my my parents influenced us and they got like a whole like D V D set of like Carmen stuff, so ⁓ I think my dad and my sister saw him live ⁓ towards the end of his his later years. ⁓ but yeah, why what are some reasons that Christian films are bad and maybe just Christian art in general? ⁓ which like I n I know there's outliers, that's the point of the show, is to bring inspiration and curation for those ⁓ outliers, but ⁓ on broad strokes, you know. It's

speaker-1: It's it is a a a thorny issue. And you know, as with any of the things, we yes, acknowledge that there are exceptions. There are things that's like, that's fantastic. ⁓ and and so it's not like everything, and so but I always get pinged if I say that. It's like, ⁓ well you okay. But We all know there are so many examples where it's like, ⁓ that that is no good. ⁓ and s and there's a lot of reasons for it, ⁓ I think. One is really a ⁓ I think maybe behind everything else is really an economic thing. ⁓ at least in US Christianity, ⁓ there came this this tension between what we would call mainstream culture and then a Christian subculture that tried to basically Replicate what's going on over here, but with a kind of Christian veneer. ⁓ and you can see this in film and music and literature, like all this stuff. ⁓ and it it's not like there there's anything wrong with that, right? Like I, you know, I we just did an ⁓ an event with Lecrae a couple weeks ago, and I was going, dude, I'm I'm just and he's getting a lot of mainstream ⁓ press right now, but is openly, unabashedly Christian. And but I think making excellent music. And so it it it it it's going mainstream because he's actually really good as an artist. And I was saying, like, hey, I I really appreciate that because you know, I grew up where the the the hip hop that I was introduced to was DC Talk. ⁓ and so like that's how I got and I'm like, and it again, I've I'm not sh no shade on DC Talk. It was fun, it was good, you know, whatever. But that's

speaker-0: And Supernatural's a banger, you know. That's right. That baseline in supernatural is pretty dope.

speaker-1: Okay. ⁓ so but I'm going here's an example of you do making excellent art and being Christian about it. But Once you label it Christian hip hop, all of a sudden these all these other assumptions are baked in that you have to meet certain criteria to be a part of a label, and that label getting distributed distributed throughout, like and well, they're all closing now, but the Christian bookstores, so forth and so on. And so ⁓ those constraints are really economically driven. If you're going to be producing a thing called Christian art, music, film, whatever, ⁓ there's a a whole industry that really requires you to do certain things, the expectations there. And so I think that drives a lot of the what is the the bad art because it's not about creative expression or, you know, exploring what it means to be human. It's about producing a a a artifact that a very niche audience will consume and we know what it and it and it's it's replicable. ⁓ there are a lot of Christian films that ⁓ you know that they'll say they have these huge box box office successes but actually what they have done is they've taken you know okay taken a million dollars budget and made a film that they know will generate thirty million dollars in box office receipts because there's a network of a bunch of churches that will four wall the theaters ⁓ and pay for them no matter what and I would go if you came to me today with a million dollars and said I'm gonna come back to you next year with thirty I would make that bet right now I'd need to find a way to get a million dollars but but that's just like well duh and so ⁓ when and but the films they produce had to be very specific. ⁓ and the reason is in part because a a lot of the people that are Buying tickets to that film are these churches and these Christians that think what they're doing is impacting culture with the message of the gospel. And so they need the art to very explicitly on the nose deliver that message. ⁓ in their mind they're doing some sort of evangelistic thing. In fact, nobody goes to actually watch them. And so not only are they not evangelizing anything, but they're supporting a a cottage industry of basically crappy Christian art. Yeah. ⁓ so I I think that's one part of it, ⁓ and a big part of it. But the other is kinda to your your own story, right? Like we ⁓ a whole lot of people have been told if you are a Christian and you are an artist, this is the terrain you're allowed to to navigate. ⁓ and if you go outside of it, not only are you maybe not approved by us, but Jesus may be shamed, you know, by by your creativity. And so there's a lot of ⁓ I just think boundaries that that if you're an artist, like you explore boundaries, you p ⁓ like ask difficult questions, you like that's in you. And if you're set in an environment where that's not allowed, then your art isn't doing what it was meant to do. And that's why you get a lot of people that are Christians making great art, but it's not Christian art. I mean the most deeply probably Prominent Christian filmmaker who makes amazing art is in the film world is Terence Malik. and like he's not making crappy movies, and people go watch them and celebrate them as wonderful. And man, they are Christian, like through and through. So ⁓ that's where I go. That is a possibility. There's a way to do it. but you know, not everybody's a Terence Malik. And so ⁓ that's so yeah, so I'm trying to think if there's another reason, but ⁓ I think that's the economic thing, the constraints that Christians place and then the kind of way we're conditioned to think, these are the places that you can navigate if you're a Christian filmmaker, say. And if you don't, then you're out.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you touched on on that 'cause I I had a question on my list about boundaries, and the the boundaries that Christians are forced into. So you kinda like touched it already without me even asking. I definitely want to hop into ⁓ Be Afraid and the the podcast is out. It's great. I was listening to it last night and then ramping up to the release of your book. ⁓ so Christian theologian drawn to horror. what how did how did you navigate that? Was that something that you wrestled with? and is I n I already know, you know, I'm I'm going to a Christian film festival in LA this literally tonight to be there for the weekend. and ⁓ there was a really Yeah, hard faith.

speaker-1: Hardfest or Hard Faith, that's right. Yeah, they ⁓ the organizers asked if we could 'cause the church is right across the street from ⁓ Fuller. So ⁓ well across the highway. ⁓ but ⁓ they were asking if we could do something with it and I couldn't pull it together to partner with them. But anyway.

speaker-0: Nice. I mean you'd be a great fit. ⁓ Spencer, the the program director, was the like second guest I had on the show and I've gotten two other guests from just being connected into that podcast or that ⁓ film fest, so ⁓ but yeah even even a festival like Hard Faith, ⁓ I didn't see too many like thriller or horror films there. I did see one of ⁓ another guest who's been on the show in the past. ⁓ I'll have to connect you guys. His name's Nathan and he he made an amazing like Netflix level quality or even beyond at this point with Netflix's quality standards. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, with how did your journey into appreciating and recognizing the the theological implications of horror start?

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, it started with me not appreciating it. So I for most of my life was like, okay, I you know, horror's not for me. Somebody else do it. It it messes me up. ⁓ I you know, gives me nightmares. I'm just I'm not in. And in fact, I might have even said that in deep focus, I think me and then Rob, ⁓ are about that way. Craig, I was always like, Man, you watch everything and like it didn't seem to affect him. Like, what's up with that? and so for the longest time I felt I was fine with that. Like I just it's not for me. and it just felt unhealthy for me to do it. Well, then COVID happened and after COVID ⁓ basically It was horror films that saved theaters ⁓ in some ways. Like a few very specific films that came out ⁓ once ⁓ things opened back up. and and which is interesting. So it's like, ⁓ okay, so that says something about something. And then since then, it's just every year the the percentage of box office sales that horror accounts for is like increasing. ⁓ it's ⁓ at like in the US anyway, it's something like 35% of all box office receipts are for horror films. ⁓ so I'm like, I I personally see myself as an expert in theological engagement with contemporary pop culture, film and TV in particular. How can like I have no credibility if I say I'm just ignoring a full third of of what people are consuming. and then the sort of last bit was I also just personally know because we're here in in LA and so you throw a rock and you meet it's somebody in the industry, right? and so I know a bunch of ⁓ well a bunch of a number of Christian filmmakers who make horror films and they do it with like Christian convictions. And I was like What? So ⁓ I those sort of three overlapping things made me go, okay, I gotta pay attention to it. I approached it kind of like an anthropologist and just said, all right, I I have a lot of like issues with it personally. And mean in issues meaning like it just affected me too much. But I'm gonna bite the bullet, I'm gonna go for it and s and see what happens. And so it really was kind of an experiment in the exposure therapy of me trying to figure out what is it that people find so compelling about this genre. And then how and then from there, how do we think about ⁓ theologically, how do we think about that? ⁓ and I I didn't have like a ⁓ you know, an agenda or a thesis in mind, I was really just trying to go, I wanna understand why, especially now and increasingly, people find so much value and meaning in this. And back to the your first question about like storytelling, ⁓ 'cause I really do think that especially like the things that we go and watch and the stories that we consume ⁓ really are reflective of our sort of deeper desires, our longings, our anxieties, our fears, etcetera. So if you can kind of get your hands around a a f a concrete thing like a film That's sort of a bridge to understanding how people in contemporary society are are thinking and feeling. And for me then that's the opening to go, okay, and now where might God be up to something in that? ⁓ and so that's kind of how I got into it as a sort of begrudging person. And I came out ⁓ yeah, really appreciating a lot. I also, as I say to everyone. But not every horror movie, you know, like it's just like not every biopic is good, not every rom-com is good, not you know, not every hor horror film is good, and some I don't think anybody should watch. But ⁓ the best of the genre, there are some gems out there that ⁓ I think I would actively encourage people to go see ⁓ because I think they they matter. And ⁓ for the Christian, they open up possibilities for understanding society in ways that I think are really important.

speaker-0: Yeah. you know, I I know you've talked about like get out in the past, ⁓ and and that had huge significance ⁓ when it first came out and even more so ⁓ as we as pressed on into the present day. and for connecting into horror, ⁓ with your with your podcast, be afraid First of all, I just want to say about the podcast. It feels like a like a very classic podcast. I really love the production of it. ⁓ you know, I feel like th all the podcasts I listen to are very like interviewe style like what we're doing right here, but yours is like weaving a narrative and going into it at unique spots and really doing unique things with sound. So ⁓ just to to to brag on the the podcast for a second. But ⁓ through doing it, ⁓ have you gotten any responses from audience members or even maybe people connected to it through 'cause it's through Christianity today, right? ⁓ have you gotten any responses from it from either audience or Christianity today that were kind of like surprising, whether encouraging or even like discouraging? Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah. you know, the the discouraging responses I would say weren't surprising. ⁓ I I've I we kinda went in going like this is gonna be pushing people, you know, ⁓ and I understand that. ⁓ we're gonna do it anyway. ⁓ and so some un ⁓ actually okay, so ⁓ this I don't think this was a discouraging one, ⁓ but it was a sort of ⁓ a Commentary on the difficulty of it. So you're absolutely right. The sound design is awesome. The peop the team I I I can't take ownership of that because I'm not a sound designer. ⁓ but we were constantly trying to go, I want you to like feel it and and and have it be an unsettling scary thing. ⁓ you know, the the script that I wrote to ⁓ narrate the experience and then the stuff that I did, you know, going to these scary places, talking to, you know, that that all was trying to like immerse you. In it. ⁓ And ⁓ and I think it works. One of the interesting responses, and that's sort of the genesis of the book, is that some people were like, okay, and actually there's a couple episodes where I'm like, warning, you may not want to listen to the next one, you know, if you if you're sensitive to this. ⁓ and some people's like took my word, like I can't, I can't do it. But they were like, But I'm really interested in what you're gonna say about that. Can and people are like, 'Can you like send do you have it written up somewhere?' And I was 'Well, actually. we we actually scripted it. ⁓ And so yeah, so that's actually what initially said, well, why don't I write a book? Because there are people that even their negative experiences where they're like, I can't, I can't go there, ⁓ still were interested in the content. And so ⁓ that's one of the sort of surprising things. I'm like, ⁓ okay, yeah, let's let's deliver it in a different medium so that it's more accessible to people who otherwise ⁓ can't handle it. So that's maybe one surprise. ⁓ I think on the whole, and I get mm, this is one of the Things it's like in retrospect, it's not surprising, but it is. And that is ⁓ when you when you dabble in this kind of world, and and I'll say the same, like I mentioned that Australian filmmaker, I was out doing some talks in New Zealand, Australia, and very similar to the US, the industry out there in terms of like what counts as Christian filmmaking, you know. And I spoke to a group of all industry folks ⁓ who were Christian, and as soon as it came up that I did stuff in horror, like all of almost I I wanna say in that this one event there were maybe let's say sixty people and half of them were involved in projects now or just completed that were horror. And like they're going, I'm allowed to you know, and it was like the ⁓ they hadn't been given permission yeah by their Christian context to do that. And so that whether the responses came from people in the industry or just people who were fans of the genre or whatever, that It was like just having a podcast about that set aside whether it's quality or not, was like offered them permission to say like, ⁓ yes, this is something that actually I've been wanting to talk about, I wanted to think about, but I don't feel like I'm able to in Christian context because it's so, you know, off limits. And so I think that's one thing that it surprised me how prevalent that that was. and and then from there just the enthusiasm that people had. Because I, you know, like I said, I I wasn't a horror buff before and ⁓ didn't realize how passionate the Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0: Okay. If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the Printing Ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed that we're planning to launch later this summer. If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create, with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description. And if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business, or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the PrintingOx. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the Creative Chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. Alright, back to the show. To kind of give permission to filmmakers and artists in general, What are some moments in scripture where you see the genre of horror played out? ⁓ I think you know, in just defining genre in general, you know, it's just the the a culmination of consistent tropes, right? And so ⁓ when we when we itemize parts of stories, we can see those tropes play out in in Jesus' story, in countless Bible stories. ⁓ and so I'd love for you to to like highlight some that kind of liberate creatives.

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I ⁓ both in the podcast and in the book I r routinely bring this up of like, okay. ⁓ I actually another book ⁓ that I I edited, it's an edited volume ⁓ called Don't Look Away. ⁓ and it's ⁓ actually a devotional ⁓ that's using ⁓ the horrific portions of scripture as a and we do it as a devotional. ⁓ so if anyone's interested, don't look away, really interesting. And we we partnered with ⁓ Alabaster, I don't know if you know that those Bibles and I got her.

speaker-0: I got the the book of John right here. ⁓

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, yeah. So it's them, they so it's ⁓ it's really visually stunning and compelling, really cool, I think, ⁓ project. So anyway, but ⁓ so numerous examples there, but the ones that come to mind immediately, ⁓ and the reason I think for other storytellers to go, you have permission even given to you by the biblical text. Yeah. ⁓ I mean, so much of Jesus' ministry involved interacting with the supernatural, with the Satan himself or the demonic. ⁓ and you get a lot of like, I mean, almost every story that in the New Testament that involves any kind of demon possession is its own kind of supernatural thriller. ⁓ and I mean You get bizarre stories. It's like somebody's ⁓ possessed by a legion of demons, and Jesus sends them into a a herd of pigs and then they run off a cliff. Like this is, you know, just describing you're like, wow, that's like imagine that scene as a film. There's all sorts of stuff. ⁓ and and so there's ⁓ numerous ⁓ you know, just demon-possession supernatural stories that I think ⁓ are fascinating in Jesus' life. Old Testament though, ⁓ man, it's like you can have a field day. If you just look at the book of Judges, it's like there is stuff that and and I this is back to the the sanitizing of scripture in the evangelical world is I think people sometimes ⁓ are shocked By what's actually in the Bible. ⁓ they they claim that the Word of God is their, you know, North Star and, you know, like blah, blah, blah, but it they don't actually know what's in it. and and so, I mean, a couple of examples i are ⁓ there's a woman ⁓ who's called maybe a concubine, but it's unclear is she a concubine, is she sort of like

speaker-0: Yeah, for sure.

speaker-1: enslaved to this guy. But anyway, ⁓ it's a woman who ⁓ ends up ⁓ with ⁓ in judges ⁓ with her master. ⁓ she gets like raped all night long by a gang of men, is left to die on the doorstep. This dude comes out after all after having thrown her out there that night and then basically ⁓ And the text is really ambigu back to ambiguous as to like what h he just threw her out there? Like, what's going on? Basically she's raped to death and he wants to rally all of Israel to come ⁓ to defend her honor and what happened. And so he cuts her up into multiple pieces and mails the body parts to each ⁓ each of the tribes. And you're like, that is horrific. Like that is insane. ⁓ it's brutal, it's b like all of that. ⁓ and that is in our sacred scripture. Right. ⁓

speaker-0: And it's funny, like, in this moment very ⁓ it's both for the Christian side and just like the sensitive side of of the audience members listening, but I feel the need to like to give a disclaimer. Which is you know, this is a disclaimer for scripture, for what's in our text. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. ⁓ I mean, even ⁓ nowadays like ⁓ in fact I don't know you might have to edit out my use of the R word. ⁓ and I can't ⁓ you know, like you you have to say s now like people unalived themselves because you can't even get through the censors on YouTube wouldn't allow you to do a straightforward description of what's in the Bible, ⁓ which is should say something to us of like, you're right, like this isn't appropriate for children. This isn't, you know, yeah I mean, just Noah, right? The story of Noah. It's not a horror story, but but it is. Like the entire human population, Aronofsky's movie gets it right. Like, can you imagine? Drowning to death all of humanity, beating on the outside of this boat that you've built, and having to just l sit there and let them die. Like then you get off. We tell all the kids about the animals and the the rainbow, but we kinda downplay the the mass genocide. And then ⁓ we go to rainbow, everything's good. But actually Noah gets drunk, gets in his tent, and one of his sons does something Awful to him that makes him curse everybody, right? So i there are these moments in scripture that are totally inappropriate for younger audiences, and it's right for us to censor and give content warnings. But it still is the story that we're actually invited into. And again, once it becomes scripture that we're asked to reflect on over and over as a part of our devotional life. and that that is ⁓ difficult. ⁓ and I even will s right here acknowledge I that's That's a challenge ⁓ that I don't think we've always risen to. and and it is though the motivating kind of instinct as I think about horror ⁓ is how do we allow that to shape the way we approach scripture? ⁓ because I think it I think it's an important thing for us to to at least entertain.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ there's I feel like when you like you said, when you actually sit down with the text and read scripture and and even, you know, reading it from a lens of like looking for Christ in the Old Testament or or just reading looking for the connections of how that connects connects into Jesus' teachings, ⁓ there's still so much there that is should be classified as horror. ⁓ and I think the the sanitization of scripture is just in general a a detriment to discipleship. ⁓ that, you know, you y you grow up like I grew up in the ki church and kids church, and I'm hearing stories about David and David's this cool dude who does such cool things for God and and like just even watching Like an animated movie about David is like they totally leave out the the complications he has with ⁓ with his wife. ⁓ I for I'm forgetting. ⁓ even but picking between Saul's daughters, ⁓ their names but the the they like

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-0: They just kinda like glance over that and wash away that and and part of that's plotting and storytelling for the sake of a a short, condensed story, but like you know, when you grow up and you actually like read the scriptures for yourself, it's like, ⁓ this isn't how I remember it because something taught me differently. ⁓ and so I think as as Christian storytellers, whether that's in film or music or ⁓ illustration or comics or whatever I think we we should make a commitment to being truthful storytellers. and that ⁓ is for some reason a challenge. I think it's just general the

speaker-1: It is, I mean, back to your ⁓ you know earlier talking about like closure or whatever, it life is complex and humans are complicated figures. And outside of Jesus, every hero of faith we hold up has a dark side. ⁓ and to treat them as if they didn't, ⁓ yeah, misses the mark of like what it actually means to be a human ⁓ in all with all their warts. And and yeah, w the tragedy also, both in our own sort of discipleship, but also in s Christian mission. Like ⁓ the horrors of Scripture, as horrific as they are, just like the people going to see horror movies, are yearning for something ⁓ that reflects the actual chaos and trauma of their life. And it's like, we've got those stories. ⁓ we w this these stories speak to that reality and and and that's amazing. Our own tradition has them. To ignore them, to sanitize them, whatever is missing out on this amazing opportunity to go, people really are yearning for stories that actually speak to the darkness and the violence and the chaos that they encounter. What's good about scripture is that it doesn't leave you there. ⁓ it doesn't leave you in that despair and that nihilism. ⁓ it's a a ⁓ complicated hope, but it is it's a hard won hope, but there is ⁓ a sense of something to come ⁓ to where death, destruction, whatever doesn't have the final say. ⁓ but you don't you don't as I often say, like you don't get Easter without going through Good Friday. and and that's often what Christian storytelling becomes. It's all about Easter. Yeah. And it's like we want to pretend what happened before.

speaker-0: Even even Easter weekend. It's like s their churches not doing good Friday services or not engaging with it at d ⁓ okay. My my wife and I met at the church, and and she was a worship pastor and I was just attending and and so but she being on staff I was you know, kinda open to information. ⁓ and so there was there was ⁓ a problem with somebody somebody in the congregation had communicated a problem about singing worship songs focusing on the blood of Christ. and that was kind of like a a command from the top down being like, hey, we're gonna kinda like cut back on that and it's like we're heading into Easter. Like what are you talking about? ⁓ and it's yeah, it's crazy. as we're kinda like getting closer to to the end here, I wanted to to touch points on two ideas. ⁓ right now it's kind of like a big moment for horror in this in films. We have ⁓ breakouts with obsession, backrooms, and iron lung. I saw backrooms last week and it was great. I really enjoyed it. ⁓ and and the interesting thing about these three movies that are you know, the talk of the town and minimizing a prestigious filmmaker like Spielberg is that all these guys are YouTubers. That they started on YouTube, they started in the new media. And so I'm curious if you have any perspective into the new media as someone who has like analyzed film and television and just the new direction of of where we're going with ⁓ technology and media consumption. Yep.

speaker-1: I think this is somewhat half baked because I I've I've started to think in these terms, but I don't have a fully a fully baked thought that I'm confident in. So I'll I'll kind of workshop and and but I w no one can hold me to this. I'll deny it. but one of the key I think elements, I mean, horror's always been good for young filmmakers because it is the production costs are so low. ⁓ and then studios like it because then you don't you can make, you know, hand over fist in terms of like like profit ⁓ because of those low costs. Whereas Spielberg, you know, I don't even know what his production costs were. Do you know? Do you have any idea? No. I'm sure it was crazy. ⁓ and so just the ⁓ the risk of that for a studio everybody else is huge when it's like you gotta pull down ⁓ you know

speaker-0: I am

speaker-1: fifty, a hundred million dollars box office on opening weekend, right? To make this worth it. Okay. ⁓ so part of it I think is is that of you if you're not hiring a Chris Nolan or you know Steven Spielberg, you can ⁓ the the actual economics, back to economics, ⁓ incentivizes young, unproven filmmakers because ⁓ low risk, high reward. But in a more positive way, ⁓ because I haven't seen Backrooms yet. And I'll let see this is back to how they affect me. I've learned how to watch horror films. And I I won't watch I I might watch it in the next day or two because my family gets back and they've been gone. I'm like, I will not be good for me to go watch backrooms and then go home to an empty house by myself. I'm like, that's gonna mess me up. So anyway. ⁓ But I'm excited to see it and ⁓ I think what is happening is a couple things. One, ⁓ y younger people who are more savvy with the new technologies and new media. ⁓ aren't just savvy with how they're telling stories, but they are masters at ⁓ knowing at f identifying an audience and delivering to them the kind of stories that that particular audience really wants. So it's very much audience driven as opposed to creator driven in in the sort of sensibilities of the artist. ⁓ and then you because of you know the the internet you can develop an audience in your own right as a 19 year old YouTuber, ⁓ and all of a sudden A twenty-four is like, okay, this dude has thirty million people that will we will guarantee they're gonna come watch his movie. ⁓ and so all of that points to ⁓ Nowadays people are generating their own audience ⁓ and are masters at doing that. And that then drives the kind of films they make. Now what what I don't know, and this is why it's sort of half baked, ⁓ but from what I understand, it also is an excellent movie. ⁓ it's not it's not just that he you know, these people are coming with a built-in audience. ⁓ from what I understand about backrooms, I've I've heard less about ⁓ the, you know, sort of critical response to obsession. ⁓ but all the stuff and I mean Even down to I read some reports of like the the the crew going like this is a young first-time director did X like he directed it. It wasn't like we were you know holding this hand. He actually so this is his creative vision, this is his product. ⁓ and I just go, hmm, that to me just means You early on you have the tools and you get to make all your mistakes and you get, you know, this sort of feedback loop. Now, even though it seems like you're super young and green, you've actually spent quite a lot of time learning how to tell stories, learning how to tell stories that connect, ⁓ and then being able to like, you know, kind of come through on that artistic vision. And that's very different than the model that existed even just five, ten years ago. and ⁓ is exciting. I think it's kinda cool ⁓ that that those possibilities are out there.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I think I think you'll like ⁓ backrooms both of for the horror element and ⁓ I know that you're not a therapist or psychologist, but you have studied and have your doctorate, right? In

speaker-1: Yeah, I have a my my other Ph I have a PhD in theology and then the other one ⁓ second PhD in psychological science. So it's exp it's experimental psychology, but ⁓ but yes, it's ⁓ I I did it in part to explore the psychology of media consumption and art consumption. So yeah, that that it's you know based on a guy going to see his therapist and the therapist following. I mean like that's yeah that's hitting all all the marks for me. Yeah. ⁓ those things. So yeah.

speaker-0: yeah, and so to kinda like fixing the clothes, ⁓ you obviously have ⁓ your interest into horror, ⁓ but you're also taking a voyage into comedy, which is ⁓ I find interesting because a lot of comedy ⁓ writers or directors also fare very well with horror. ⁓ that's what we see with Curry Baker with obsession. That's what we see with ⁓ ⁓ Jordan Peel with Get Out. ⁓ and so it's it's funny that you're you're also like h heading into the comedy world. You have something coming up ⁓ very soon, right? You have like kind of a a show coming up

speaker-1: Well yeah, there's we're doing a few things. ⁓ and yeah, it it all emerged ironically from the stuff I was doing in horror. The comedy kept coming up, I'm like, and so you know, for the the ⁓ the podcast and then for people who've seen the book, I it's less clear in the book be because it doesn't work in when it's not audio format, but ⁓ in the in for be afraid, I was going to scary places, doing scary things, kind of ⁓ as the avatar for the audience, like ⁓ they're in it with me. ⁓ And it came up of like, well, you know, there's the classic Seinfeld bit where it's, you know, you're of the top 10 fears that people always have. Fears number two through 10 all have to do with death and dying. Like people are afraid of dying. But the number one fear is always public speaking. And and Seinfeld's classic quote is that means you'd rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy at at a funeral. ⁓ and that's played out to be true that I was like, ⁓ well, I'm a public speaker, I'm a professor, appreciate like that that isn't a problem. But I've long had a lot of respect and like ⁓ just in awe of stand-up conversation. comics, their ability to make an audience laugh, like on cue. And I'm like, that's fascinating. But for most people, and they will tell me it's like that is like my nightmare. It is my nightmare to get up and do that. And I said, ⁓ okay, well maybe the next iteration of the podcast is instead of going to scary places, I go do a scary thing. And so ⁓ I've the last year I've been Going out to open mics and doing other stuff and capturing it all. And my hope is ⁓ with the sound design, we can get you to feel how horrible it feels when you bomb. And how hard it is to actually get people to laugh. That's the goal. ⁓ and so yeah, there'll be a few things. Some will be doing some events of of people in the sort of comedic or humor sphere. ⁓ One in the fall, one in the spring, and then I'm now in pre-production for the the next podcast where that's kind of the the theme. I I think right now I'm calling it Not That Funny ⁓ is the name of it. ⁓ and ⁓ so and and it initially started with finding the funny in fear, ⁓ but we're playing with it. But yeah, so that's what's that's what's coming up ⁓ for me next.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I got I got to watch ⁓ the stand up that's on your your YouTube channel and really enjoyed it. And again to the the Christian side of things, it's like you're you're talking about subject matter that is pretty consistent with secular art audiences, but you don't necessarily hear, you know, Tim Hawkins or Michael ⁓ Michael Jr., you know, going into talking about their sex life. ⁓ which I found really f refreshing that's like this isn't crude, but we're talking about something that is very personal and that is very ⁓ intimate that ⁓ you don't hear from a Christian perspective.

speaker-1: Yeah, I it's again back to boundaries and stuff. We have so many like spoken and unspoken boundaries, like, ⁓ we don't talk about that. ⁓ I've described you know, I again I'm no professional stand-up. I've just been doing it and trying it. But ⁓ I've described my stuff as age appropriate but clean. ⁓ or clean but age appropriate. So like I'm not, you know, I'm not like dropping F bombs or anything like that. But Probably you don't want to bring your twelve year old. 'Cause I'm talking about adult things that adults talk about. So ⁓ it's cool that you picked up on that, ⁓ because that's at least my my goal ⁓ with those things. So Yeah.

speaker-0: I I think that's great. I think that's ⁓ something that Christian creatives can can latch on to is you know being age appropriate but clean. ⁓ and even I think I think there is room for as you kind of discuss in deep focus ⁓ and as I'm sure you'll explore even more with ⁓ be afraid is that I think there there are those who are designed to go to the borders of what is safe and secure and there's there's ⁓ author that I I you know, I think a lot of Christian creatives probably reference ⁓ named Makoto Mu Fujimara and he's an artist and painter. and ⁓ you know he talks about being border stalkers and I think I've mentioned this in other ⁓ episodes too is that artists and creatives are are meant to go to the borders and see what else is out there and and push the boundaries and then bring, you know, be the mediator between those spaces ⁓ and and bring ⁓ connection to those and so

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Marco's a a friend and a former colleague, and I I use that same term ⁓ frequently as well. ⁓ so yeah, you're absolutely right. That that's I think where the Christian artist is at his or her best is in those in between spaces. So that's great.

speaker-0: Well cool. Well, Cutter, thank you so much for bringing your expertise and your knowledge to the show. ⁓ you know, I think so far in in the guests that I've had, you're the first person who is like kind of a a known ⁓ theologian that is like pursuing theology. ⁓ and so it's I think it's a necessary thing to have in these conversations. ⁓ to to have somebody who is from that background. So I really appreciate your voice on the show. ⁓ how I like to end the show is by asking each guest a question. ⁓ and that is simply what is inspiring you right now? What are what are you watching or reading ⁓ or listening to music? ⁓ it's kind of like a free shout out to things that you're enjoying right now ⁓ that is inspiring you.

speaker-1: Well this is gonna be funny or maybe it's not funny. ⁓ it I just reread I I hadn't read it probably since high school or college, but in anticipation of my favorite filmmakers summer release, ⁓ I just reread The Odyssey. and man, it's really good. I mean, of course it is. It's you know like one of the classics of all time, but it it it really was ⁓ I would say like inspiring and moving, and just fascinating. So I know that probably isn't the answer that you're looking for.

speaker-0: No, I think it's great. I mean I I'm pumped for for Nolan's The Odyssey. I think it's gonna be awesome. And so it's

speaker-1: ⁓ I'm really interested to know back to transcendence and stuff. Like how is he gonna handle this material? ⁓ and I'm super eager to see and I'm a I'm a bashed fanboy, so even if it's a wreck, I'll still defend it, I'm sure. So but that's that is what is ⁓ right now ⁓ jazzing me up.

speaker-0: Yeah, well cool. Well thanks again for being on the show. ⁓ for the guests listening, ⁓ we'll make sure to link ⁓ be afraid in the show notes and Cutter is there any place that you would like guests to find you at?

speaker-1: Yeah, you can I mean my website's probably the best place. It's just cuttercalaway.com, Cutter with a K, Callaway with a C. ⁓ and through there you can find yeah, links to the podcast, ⁓ to the book coming out, ⁓ and even ⁓ my newsletter if you wanna sign up for that and get my every other week thoughts on theology, art, ⁓ culture, that sort of stuff. ⁓ but mostly all funneled through cuttercalaway.com.

speaker-0: And you've also started up on ⁓ shutter or no not shutter stack. ⁓ yeah, substack. Yeah.

speaker-1: Substack. Yeah. Yeah, I just launched that a couple of weeks ago actually. So ⁓ yeah, if anybody cares to know what I think about things going on in the world, they can they can follow me there. Nice.

speaker-0: Yep. Yeah, Substacks been cool. It's been a cool place to to get some more unfiltered thoughts of other people that I've been following for a long time. So I'm kind of new to it myself. ⁓ but all right everybody. ⁓ thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode. Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, This is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.