Isaac Askew: Welcome to Never Rewrites. I'm Isaac Askew. Jeffrey Sherman: And I'm Jeffrey Sherman, and today we're going to revisit an old standby of ours, should you cancel all your meetings in the age of AI? Isaac Askew: Mm. Yes. Jeffrey Sherman: So yes. Quick episode. We do that joke all the time. Isaac Askew: As usual. It depends or yes. Jeffrey Sherman: So w we used to do an annual episode every January where we would say it's a great time to review all your standing meetings and cancel them for Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: you know reasons and we'll put links in the show notes. But now in the age of AI, one thing that I've noticed happens is people will stay in meetings but not attend because then they automatically get emailed a transcript. Which Isaac Askew: Hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: they don't read. But that's their justification Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jeffrey Sherman: for staying in and a as a lurker is that well now I get a transcript. Yeah, and so I I wanted to probe the question or explore the idea of does this change whether or not you should leave a meeting that has minimal value if you're gonna get a transcript of it? And what are the power shifting power dynamics now because of this? Which I think is the more interesting question. Isaac Askew: Okay. Well the first thing I'm thinking of is like, why is this a transcript not just available anyway? Like at the at the last place I worked for, every meeting got a transcript and you didn't have to attend to get the transcript. Jeffrey Sherman: That is probably true. if you attend it automatically emails you the transcript. And if you don't attend, you probably to find it. Because I don't know like where it would a get Isaac Askew: Sure. Jeffrey Sherman: automatically published. But there's an interesting question of maybe all meetings should have all their transcripts automatically published. That doesn't seem rife Isaac Askew: Yeah. Jeffrey Sherman: for somebody to pull it down searching for incriminating nonsense at all. Isaac Askew: Well also I wonder if like so so th th the other kind of question here too is like should you have been on the meeting to begin with? Right? It's Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: like usually if you're on the meeting to me, like either you need to know something's about to change, like it's there to inform people, like a town hall, for example, things are gonna change, or it's like a smaller meeting that's like a product focused thing and you're there either because you're you're there usually because they need your input. Or maybe they need you to know something's going to change too, just as an informational kind of thing. But if you don't in my head, like if I don't if I got invited to something and I my input was not needed, and the information could have just been shared in the public channel, like Slack channel, saying, Hey, Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: we're gonna change and we're not gonna support this product anymore at here, letting everybody know. Then why in the world did you take up my time and make me like join and stop my work? Interrupt my work, join a meeting, and that I I could have just looked in the channel whenever I was done finishing my work and then seen the same message. So Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah. Right. So now at an AI where this meeting could have been an email, and here's the email automatically generated, does that Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: change the dynamics of any of this? Isaac Askew: Yeah, so Jeffrey Sherman: well, so part of it I think becomes a a new power move. and if you haven't had the joys of working in enterprise software companies or enterprise Isaac Askew: Mm-mm. Jeffrey Sherman: companies, which I know you haven't Isaac Askew: Okay. Wh where's the power move? Jeffrey Sherman: The the power move is you know, the traditional power move is I'm so important, I need you to write up notes and send I'm not coming, but I need you to write up notes and send to me in case I I need to take action after Isaac Askew: Mm. Jeffrey Sherman: the fact. and the the supreme power move is of course, I'm gonna send somebody else along as my representative. Isaac Askew: I see. Okay. Jeffrey Sherman: Right. So that you the if you're powerful enough to have people that you can send along as representatives, with the idea being, and they're gonna report back to me and then I might telephone in human telephone in, like have that person come back and we can play Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: telephone. again, fortune you know, five hundred stuff. The sort of the the less the a the AI version of this power move is, I'm not coming to a meeting. But I'm curious, so I want the notes. So leave me in that so I have the option to come and also so that I automatically get the notes. Isaac Askew: Okay. Jeffrey Sherman: Which In in a way, like in a power move kind of way, now that I you know, let's say I was the CTO or director of engineering or something, and now I'm on the the invites this meeting, that makes it much harder to cancel the meeting. And it Isaac Askew: Hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: forces other people to show up to this meeting because now they know that this is a window into this other more important person's you know, inbox, even if they don't show up. Yeah. Isaac Askew: Probably gets a bit more performative too, 'cause you've got people thinking I'm being listened to by the higher up. And so you act a little differently. Cause you're being recorded. Jeffrey Sherman: Right, and right, 'cause you're being recorded and it's gonna a transcript's gonna end up with some high mucky muck who has almost certainly Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: never read it. Never read more than one, at most. Isaac Askew: He just had Clause summarize it for him. Maybe. Okay. Jeffrey Sherman: probably not. Usually in this kind of thing, they did it b they set up the meeting happened and they went once and then they said, Okay, you know, leave me on in case I want to be need to be involved. And so the second time they they read the notes and after that they just ignored the email because they're like the this doesn't matter. But because they don't qu leave the meeting, now Isaac Askew: Yeah. Jeffrey Sherman: they have become a sort of a a rusty spike nailing this meeting to your calendar. Isaac Askew: Well, there's two problems there. One, like people don't want to cancel the meeting like you're talking about the the spike because they know it's potentially attended by a higher up. But Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: two, no one's acting as honest as they could be. Because if you're being watched, I mean like in in an unhealthy organization, which it sounds like you're describing, when you're being watched, you get performative and you try to have all the right answers, then you get defensive if somebody calls you out for saying something stupid because you were quickly trying to come up with smart answer, right? So you act very different. In a healthy organization, you're just honest. And if someone calls you out, you go, I I didn't think about that. And you're not afraid of looking stupid because you're not penalized for looking stupid, because people know you're human and we can learn from this and grow. So you end up having a forced meeting, no one wants to cancel and has worse communication with less honesty. So Jeffrey Sherman: Yes. Isaac Askew: it's just like if anything, it's just you're actually actively making your organization communicate as ineffectively as possible. Jeffrey Sherman: Hmm. So if we're saying that AI having AI produce a transcript automatically has can have a let me walk that back, let me restate it. Having AI produce a transcript for people who are not in the meeting can have a negative impact just on meeting structure. Would it be better to have a no transcript policy? Isaac Askew: May I it depends on the org. Always it depends, right? Well, because the reason Jeffrey Sherman: It depends. Isaac Askew: I pause is because w we had automatic transcripts on in the last like I mentioned, the last company I was at. And everyone just kinda knew it was there. No no one Jeffrey Sherman: Okay. Isaac Askew: no one said I'm gonna I'm gonna send this transcript up to the higher ups. They're really just transcribed for the sake of what happened here and can we like I think we were even gonna try to find a way to have that saved. To a local repo, like a decision of what we made. That way as we're working on a new ticket, if someone if the ticket conflicts with a recent decision, it could actually Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: find it and go, you're about to pick up this ticket. But we actually thirty minutes ago a a meeting just ended that decided we're not gonna go that route. Pause and maybe ask her. You know, like we were trying to find a creative way to to use transcripts like that. or at least, you know, we Jeffrey Sherman: Hmm. Isaac Askew: were teasing the idea of of any kind of product y decisions being kind of made That way it's not just in the ears of the people who attended because anybody could be on vacation or whatever. And then you don't I think we're also kind of using Slack that way too, where it could scan Slack and see what decisions Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: were made and what threats were made. So in those cases, if you don't think I'm being judged and it's just like a default you it is like a default we transcribe everything all the time. You know, no one cares. That's just how we do things. Jeffrey Sherman: Right, it's just how we do things and Isaac Askew: Then that's fine. But if you don't, then suddenly, this meeting we're gonna transcribe. Then you you add a little unnecessary drama to the You know, I Jeffrey Sherman: Mm. Isaac Askew: saw I think maybe all or nothing is the way you go. Either you just don't do transcripts because it's it's an unhealthy organization and people are scared. Or you just have them on all the time and it becomes like second nature and no one even questions it, like that's just the thing we're using to make sure our decisions are logged. Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah, I like that consistency of hey the course this meeting's gonna be transcribed because we just transcribe meetings because it's useful. you know, and who knows who's looking at it years from now, so be professional. Or yeah. Isaac Askew: Yeah. With the ability too to turn it off if you wanted. Like if you if I wanted to hop on a Zoom call with a colleague, like we we had this kind of fun forgot du donut. I don't know if you've installed it's like a Slack add-on called donut and it matches you for a donut chat with your colleagues to help you get to know them. You don't need to transcribe those. Jeffrey Sherman: I've installed similar things. Yeah. Isaac Askew: Yeah, so you don't need to transcribe those. So obviously you'd turn them off and just talk about like your life and Introduce yourself to a colleague you haven't met and you don't there's no need Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: to have that saved and shared with the company, you know. But like in general, like if it's gonna be a producty chat and you're gonna make important decisions from it, why not have a log? Like why should it just live it in people's memories? It doesn't make any sense. or Jeffrey Sherman: To avoid responsibility and accountability. Isaac Askew: yeah, well. Making sure like e even if you had a point person who would take everything and like write down the notes and, you know, publish them somewhere, that person might not Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: be there that day here. And people it's like whatever if people have like a Jira board and they're sharing the screen and they go through and they say, Okay, what is so and so working on? What is so and so working on? When that person's out, everyone's like, well, who's gonna who's gonna share the board today and like go through the stand up or you know, people get confused whenever that person's out. So it just kinda makes sense to have a default This is how we're going to do things, rather than having a point Jeffrey Sherman: Mm. Isaac Askew: person for that kind of thing too. I'm just kinda speaking out Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah, but Isaac Askew: loud. Jeffrey Sherman: so going back to the the question at the top though is Isaac Askew: Mm. Jeffrey Sherman: does do you think this would encourage meetings to stick around longer than they are useful? Possibly it might make meetings more useful so that they stick aro the well now it's not just we're having this meeting that's marginally useful. We're having this meeting which is marginally useful but it produces a transcript which is marginally useful and the two margins now make it useful enough. Isaac Askew: I think I think in general. what makes this kind of a silly way to do things is is just the idea of somebody Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah. Isaac Askew: lurking to get a transcript. Just have whatever person ha have find a way to automate that to where like a the your team gets the transcript. Don't join for don't join a meeting you're not supposed to be on for the sake of abusing an automatic forwarding transcripts thing. Like we have technology. Like you don't have to manually do that. That's that's sad. You can find a better way to do that. And also if it's making it where like someone else is lurking for the sake of sending it to another person, again, just have have it to where everyone gets a copy and then it forwards a copy to a shared email for the team. And then that forwards it to somebody else who gives a shit. CTO or whatever. Like I think the the the idea that you're making it to ooh, this one we're gonna record is what's making everybody not perform as good as they could. Yeah. Jeffrey Sherman: Well, I'm saying the the opposite though. Like if you know, our advice is cancel all the meetings or aggressively Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: cancel meetings, does the transcript reduce the value of that advice? Like, okay, now maybe you don't want to aggressively cancel all your meetings because there's a transcript and the transcript will have value that possi No, I don't buy it. I don't buy it. There's so there's toxic reasons. Isaac Askew: Yeah. I don't know. I think we should still aggressively. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Jeffrey Sherman: Which is another reason to cancel aggressively to avoid toxicity. Isaac Askew: Yes. I think deny all meetings you requ requested to be added to unless someone can explain that you need to be on them. and then if you're on them, have a expectation that they're always recorded and sent to some other people and don't do this weird power move thing. Anybody doing power moves, I'm sorry, like i I maybe it's fun for you, but like y you're just making communication worse. So Jeffrey Sherman: You clear I mean, I know you haven't. You have not worked in Fortune five hundred companies. Isaac Askew: No, I guess not. But I I I I would Jeffrey Sherman: Ha ha ha Isaac Askew: probably be very vocal there and then, you know, if they want to fire me for it, sure. But like again, like i if if you're doing this practice, you're just you you're hamstringing communication. And if you know you're doing it on purpose, then you're just being a dick. And do you wan do you wanna actually solve a problem or you just wanna wax poetic, you know? So Jeffrey Sherman: Wax poetic. It it's a Fortune five hundred company, my friend. well well th there's a reason I don't work on Wall Street anymore. Isaac Askew: then leave the fucking company and go some work somewhere that gives a shit with less toxic people. Yeah. that sounds awful. I Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah. All right. Isaac Askew: like actually solving problems. Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah, I I could go years without solving problems. Working at big banks drove me nuts. So similar vein then, so we're so we're exploring Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: the you know, what is AI change? And you know, one thing that we push on have pushed on in the past is the idea that like, hey, you know, a meeting should have a description, it should have an agenda, it should have Isaac Askew: Mm-hmm. Jeffrey Sherman: all the things that should tell people what they need to do to be prepared and all of this things right to be prepared and ready. Isaac Askew: Yeah. Jeffrey Sherman: And you know, I live in a very we live in a very agentic time and still I get meeting requests and almost never is it anything more than like a list of the people and that we're gonna talk. Not even under description what we're talking about. So Isaac Askew: Yeah. I hate that. Jeffrey Sherman: is it now poor etiquette? Like with AI, is it now poor etiquette and even more inexcusable to not include Isaac Askew: Ooh, that's a good one. Yeah, because we can easily automate Jeffrey Sherman: Maybe that we should save that for next time. Isaac Askew: the agenda. Well and and the takeaway. Because that that's that I think that's the main two things you want is like the agenda and like some documents that are like, hey, please read this before the meeting. That way everyone's up to date and so we can have a quick and efficient meeting and no and people aren't like, huh? What we talking about? That's the idea is to save time, right? And then the takeaway Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: is like At the end of this meeting we hope to have this decision. That way you know the meeting's over and you've got something that's like the the output of the meeting, right? That's like a good Jeffrey Sherman: What Isaac Askew: effective meeting. Jeffrey Sherman: do you need to be prepared? What what are we talking about? What do you need be prepared? And the decision we hope to come away with. Isaac Askew: Right. And AI can I could both schedule the meeting and all the people relevant for you, but also fill out that description. and make sure you don't have the missing Google Meet link, which is missing, you know, ten percent of the time in my experience. and yeah, make sure you you have all the summarized agenda, any supporting documents and the main takeaway. You know, and I would say I mean that would be super helpful for me. Like I I think I think your your wording of it's even more inexcusable not to have that in age of AI is is I would say it's pretty accurate. Jeffrey Sherman: So to summarize our opinions here, AI does not particularly AI has no impact on whether or not you should cancel meetings. You should still aggressively cancel your meetings. it is Isaac Askew: Yeah. Jeffrey Sherman: important, whatever your transcript decision is, it should be there should be a default and it should be consistent. And probably you want to bias towards having them and making them searchable. Isaac Askew: Mm. Jeffrey Sherman: And three, you should use AI tools to help you have better meeting invites with descriptions and pre reads. Yeah. and so right. Isaac Askew: At the very least, yeah. If you do none of the others. Do that at least. Jeffrey Sherman: Well, it goes to, you know, our advice of r to help change culture, actively reject meetings that don't have it and be the change Isaac Askew: Right. Jeffrey Sherman: you want to see in the world. Isaac Askew: Yeah, I'm saying, but even if you don't take our advice on anything else, at the very least Jeffrey Sherman: Right. Isaac Askew: you can say, you know, Claude, schedule this meeting and make sure you invite relevant people. Don't invite irrelevant people and summarize the notes and agenda and takeaways that we need. It's it's free. Jeffrey Sherman: I am gonna try that to see if it can actually figure out who should be involved with the access it has. I don't think it can 'cause I don't think it knows with our setup. Isaac Askew: it did a pretty good job for us. Like w it would it would go through a Slack thread about a particular meeting that was created from the Slack thread and look at all the Jeffrey Sherman: Hm. Isaac Askew: people who con contributed to the meeting. And then pull in Jira tickets related to the story that we're talking about. Any like backlogged items r relevant to a bug that was needed to be addressed that was related to this type. I mean it it could it could fan out and spind a lot of, you know, relevant things. Jeffrey Sherman: Yeah, yeah. I if so I don't have Clog connected to my Slack. So if I had Clog connected to Slack I could totally say, You look at this conversation and come up with a you know an agenda, a decision that's to be made and invite the people, relevant people. That makes sense. I don't have that set up, but if I did, then it would make sense. Isaac Askew: It's also very relevant i if if you I don't know if you have like a rotating support team where like each engineer each Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: different week is helping with support. That way Jeffrey Sherman: Mm-hmm. Isaac Askew: everyone gets the knowledge disseminated. But if persistent requests keep coming up, it'll classify them. Then you can see, we pull engineers away for this particular thing many times and like categorize them. So maybe you should fix this thing that Make a self-serve portal, that way you're not always pulling engineers off. so it can it can find good data points in Slack. So highly recommend connecting your Slack. Jeffrey Sherman: Point. All right. Well thank you all for listening. I'm Jeffrey Sherman. Isaac Askew: I'm Isaac Askew, and this is Never Rewrite.