speaker-0: On today's episode, Confusing Judging Terms. Let's go. To the Front, the show that answers questions for Stock Show families. Presented by TTF Nutrition, livestock supplements that get you to the front. Welcome to the front. I'm Tony Morris. I'm joined, as always, by the lovely and talented Thomas Gross. And Thomas, I can tell from your picture that you are not in Sheridan, Indiana. Tell us what is going on with Team Gross.

speaker-1: Al although we are close to Sheridan, Wyoming, for whatever that's worth. ⁓ you know, it's we're we're close. You know, I I'd say we're we're on an expedition to find the next great show bearer, but I haven't seen one for a few days. So we are ⁓ stepping away from the livestock barn for just a couple days here and ⁓ took a family trip out west and hitting some national parks. So currently we're in Yellowstone and ⁓ enjoying all of the animals that are here, none of which look like ⁓ the livestock that you and I look at on a regular basis.

speaker-0: I bet I'd enjoy those maybe a little more. Be my guess. Well

speaker-1: We can just look at ⁓ and walk away. We don't have to worry about ⁓

speaker-0: The last time I I saw a bison, ⁓ he was violently throwing an old man into the air, so please tell me that you have not been that close to a bison.

speaker-1: We were that close to a bison, but we were inside our vehicle and they were calmly eating roadside and ⁓ there's been many traffic jams out here and it's because either bison or this morning we saw an elk crossing the road and everybody stops and takes their pictures as they should. But ⁓ you know, we get a traffic jam because of that. But no, no ⁓ I didn't get out, we didn't pet him, we ⁓ there's signs that say don't pet the fluffy cows. So we avoided that so far. So we are we're enjoying the livestock from the safety of our vehicle or about thirty or forty yards away from ⁓ From said animals, I guess. So yeah, it's been great.

speaker-0: The best advice I ever had, ⁓ that was given from anybody when you're around wildlife that's potentially bigger than you, is don't be the slowest person in your group. And so for me, that takes somebody who's not very athletic 'cause I am not very fleet of foot. Well

speaker-1: The slowest person in our group is probably my five year old daughter, and so I don't think I can ⁓ I don't think I could live with that either, you know, if I left her behind.

speaker-0: Yeah. You gotta yeah, we're gonna travel with some older people, see if we can outrun

speaker-1: So no, how about you, sir?

speaker-0: Yeah, so we had the Indiana Youth Expo ⁓ this weekend. So we got home from that ⁓ yesterday and had a great weekend. That has become, in my mind, one of the premier events in the Midwest. And so my congratulations to the team of people that put that on. ⁓ I was talking with Brock Timmins, Timmins Feed, ⁓ there Lebanon, Indiana, ⁓ great ⁓ TTF dealer, but also is part of the committee that puts on ⁓ Indiana Youth Expo. He said they had ⁓ And I'm gonna get the numbers wrong. I think it was a little over 800 exhibitors. Seventeen hundred and fifty had a livestock across four barns, ⁓ all at the Boone County Fairgrounds this weekend. So it was I mean, there's no way you can have that many people and that many animals in one area and not have it be a little bit of a zoo. So it was. ⁓ but they that's probably the most exhibitor friendly event ⁓ that we have up here in this part of the Midwest, and they do a tremendous job. So Got to see the best in in in people ⁓ over the weekend. Now I will say I'm on a bit of a soapbox, I'm gonna admit it, because I we saw the best in people, but man, there were a couple examples where we saw some of the worst in people. And two things, two things that really, really struck me. One, and this is in the cattle ⁓ area, if you're showing off your trailer and you're showing cattle, clean up after yourself. That's all I'm gonna say. There was a group Who had one of the better heifers there, when they left, every beer can, every piece of food trash, everything was thrown out all around where their stalls were, and they just left that for somebody else to clean up. And so if you're one of those people that do that, this is me telling you, do better. The other thing is if you park in a spot that parks somebody in and you have such a grandiose sense of your own importance that what you need is more important than what other people need. Do better. That's the one thing I will tell you. That happened to us. That happened to my wife and our friends, the Doms from Michigan. Somebody pulls their truck in, blocks us all in, and then goes to a separate part of the fairgrounds and just intends for us to wait on him all day long. And he and that me and that young man had some words about ⁓ what we thought of his sense of entitlement. That's I will all I will say to that. So do better if you're those two people. But For the most part it was great.

speaker-1: Yeah, I figured somebody got parked in. By seeing that picture from up above, that was incredible. And and ⁓ you know, that only works as as a whole if we as an industry say, like, let's get together and try to make these things work, right? And so selfish people ruin those sorts of situations.

speaker-0: Yep, and you know how it is. Like you'll see ninety-nine percent of all people make it awesome. But if you're one of the people that didn't and was all about you in that moment, do better. That's my only advice for you. But for the most part, man, what an awesome event. And my appreciation and our hats off, and we get in there and sponsor and do some things with it as well. But the Indiana Youth Expo, open to exhibitors of all states at this point. ⁓ but it has gotten large. It's gotten large fast and they do a tremendous job with it. And There was an encore performance of the national anthem on Saturday. I was actually asked to sing it again. And so you got to give the people what they want.

speaker-1: When you say asked, like was it a slow day and they needed a little relief from the day or like what what was going on there?

speaker-0: I tell you what, when I arrived on on Friday, I had five people come up and ask if I was gonna do that again. And I just kinda downplayed it. And then Saturday morning Brock Timmins walked all the way out to our trailer where we were showing cattle and said, I know you're busy, but man, we'd really love to have you do that. So ⁓ you know, an invitation. I practiced a few Marty Robbins tunes I was gonna lay on ⁓ later in the day, but I didn't get that opportunity. But We do, you know, like I call it karaoke for America. So if I'm ever singing the national anthem, I want everybody to join in. But yeah, a repeat performance.

speaker-1: So we could have played Chris Stapleton or we had Tony Morris sing. Those were the two options and we

speaker-0: The beard's getting close, right? Like I I'm starting to you know, like give me a year or two, man, and I think I'm right there with him, you know.

speaker-1: Perfect. Hey, we've got we've got some awesome stuff this week and you know, we've done some of these on judging terms and ⁓ I think those have been some of the most requested and you guys continue to send in judging terms that you're hearing at your shows and so we thought why not hit you with a part two and give you our take on what some of these confusing judging terms might mean. So let's start off with ⁓ the first one. The question that we got sent in says, I understand what short back means, but why is that a good thing? And maybe I'm gonna change this question a little bit to say, Is it a good thing, Tony? What say you short backed?

speaker-0: Yeah, I I struggle with this 'cause I understand why people like it. I understand how it visually changes the way livestock look and from a proportion standpoint, and especially when they're young and growing, shorter coupled animals in general, shorter backed, gives them an easier way to be proportional in their length like of their front third their middle third being shorter and their back third being longer, it makes those three blend together. Because of all those, the middle tends to get the longest, right? And so I totally understand why why people would why that looks visually appealing, right? And in the show ring where we're trying to get these things really bulked up and ready to go at an early age and keep them that way their whole life, that really is makes those animals that are shorter coupled in general, shorter in their back and then more proportional in their thirds, to me those animals just look better from an earlier age and they're easier to get ready. Right? There's no doubt about it. And I remember the very first time I saw the physiological growth curve, right, back in a college course at Oklahoma State, you know, where it showed long bone growth and how that starts early and you almost have to get that done before you know, muscle growth begins to peak along with it, and then the last thing we get is fat or adipose tissue starting to lay on and how those things are affected by growth and nutrition. And if you're smaller framed, if you're shorter coupled, then that growth curve changes and it looks more appealing in the show ring. Is it a good thing? I would tell you, if you look at carcass value and the in the swine in particular, if you compare what like pork cutout is terms of being paid on your percentages of high value ⁓ you know box retail cuts. No, it's not a good thing. We need these animals to be longer middled, to be longer back. The highest priced retail cuts of pork, really of any animal, are up in their back over their rib and then their length of loin. And so if we shorten them that way, there's simply less pounds of that proportion to the carcass weight to sell. And that changes their pork cutout value when you really break it down commercially, right? Now, does that make them look good in the show ring if they're long backed? No, it doesn't. So we've selected against it. But, you know, if we want to get down to the nitty gritty of what really drives carcass value, then no, it's not a good thing. But does it look good in the show ring? It sure does. And so I understand why people select for it. Yeah.

speaker-1: I think this is the ⁓ we'll state the elephant in the room being this is where we have departed from real world application in the show ring. I'm okay with that and and I think we just need to know that going into it and we need to freely admit that. I think people that fight and say short back show pigs are real world viable, maybe ⁓ they're viable but maybe not ideal. I think we could have a discussion about. But yes, the show ring is a little different. They do kinda look cooler, they look ready ear early. I would also say though those shorter backed ones sometimes struggle to get to higher weights at points in times and some of those really short backed animals might be finished or done before we get to a true market weight. The counter to that though is some of these that get too long bodied, they could not be done till three hundred fifteen or three hundred and twenty pounds.

speaker-0: And that's no big deal at all. Actually that's preferred, right? I mean ⁓ yeah. And and a a a market hog that can weigh in the low three twenty fives is actually preferred, right? and that's another place where the show ring and what we're doing is kinda departed.

speaker-1: Well and most of our shows have a max declared weight of two ninety. You get fifteen more pounds, so the heaviest you can be is three ⁓ five. Not real world viable again, but you know, that's kind of what we have to the sandbox we have to play in.

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean and it's now I will tell you when you compare it to some other species and cattle, for instance, right? Cattle that get too long bodied, too large, too framey, become inefficient to feed because it takes longer to get them to their physiological endpoint. And that's the difference in, you know, the way we feed cattle and the way we feed hogs. Hogs commercially, we put them in a finishing bar and we feed full feed and we get them to their market weight as quickly as we can. And if they're good when they get there from a cut ability standpoint, great. If they're bad, we're gonna accept that. We just need them to do it fast. Cattle are the opposite end of that, right? And cattle we're feeding to a physiological endpoint. We have to get the right balance of muscle, of finish, and do so as efficiently from a growth standpoint as we can in order to make those make money. And so in that case, moderately coupled livestock, cattle that are more modern their frame size. actually are easier to feed and to get them to a a a a more appropriate physiological endpoint where their carcass value's high. And so although I think it's silly in the pig deal when you compare it commercially, it actually makes more sense when you compare it to cattle ⁓ and what we really need them to be in the real world. And short backed in cattle is becoming a term you hear more and more often. I don't know about the sheep and goat species, but I know shorter backed more proportional cattle are certainly in vogue as well. But it makes a lot more sense in that market arena than it does in market hogs.

speaker-1: Excellent. Well, I think that kind of covers that off and we just freely admit there's a little difference, especially in the show ring and real world versus kind of the show world, but it looks cool and and maybe that's some of the problem with what we're seeing today is we're picking a lot of things that look really cool. Which leads us into our second term that we were sent in. The term that ⁓ that I think we've heard a lot or heard recently is looks like a show pig, right? And ⁓ we are at a pig show, but what might somebody mean when they say looks like a show pig?

speaker-0: pig. Yeah, I think it's kinda a little bit of what we're talking about with the last term. I think it's that more boxier build, ⁓ call it more proportional if you will, but shorter backed animals ⁓ that are more proportional in kind of their length of their front third, the length of their middle, and their length of their hip. I think that's one thing that makes them look like a show pig. Also animals that have a more elite look through their front end. So their necks tie higher to their shoulder They've got a little longer neck and a little slicker head maybe than what you see on some of ⁓ I think that kind of gives them that show pig look. And then the last thing is just presentation and and hair and and how heavy boned they are. And those things make them look like a show pig, right? I always say some of these things are just bred to a purpose, and those ones that are bred to a purpose to be show pigs are longer fronted, they're shorter back, they're heavier boned, typically they're hairier. ⁓ and doing all those things with the right type of presentation I think gets you that this one looks like a show pig, right? And and you know, ⁓ to me there's nothing wrong with that term, right? Like we're at a pig show, they should look like a show pig, you know. ⁓ but you're hear that more and more often when they come in and and it's rarely is it explained. That's the one thing I do kind of have a problem with some judges when they'll throw out something like this one just looks like a show pig. I think you owe it to the people around you to s explain what that means in your mind at least once ⁓ when you throw a term like that out. ⁓ but to me that's kind of what they're talking about.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think I think you're spot on and I think of them as the tall shouldered, good looking ones as soon as they come out of the gate that ⁓ you know, some of ⁓ just know that they're cocky and that they're good and they come out with that presence about them. I think of that as kind of the show pig look and and we could talk about going back to our previous thought, does this have any real world value? And when it's all said and done and they're hanging on the rail, it has zero real world value, right? And but once again they do look cool that way, and that's the way we're picking them. And so being tall Tall shouldered, I would argue, sometimes makes them a little straighter front and makes them a little flatter ribbed at times, right? A little harder doing. It's actually the opposite of what we might want in the real world, but it is what we want in the livestock world. And and because we've said this is not just a market sh market exhibition, it's also a show, and the show element of it is being tall shouldered and good looking and sound at the same time, right?

speaker-0: Yeah, and I I would tell you I to me there's only one way to make ⁓ taller at their hip than it is at their the taller at their shoulder than it is at their hip, and that's to make their shoulder way too straight. Right. So ⁓ I don't know I don't always think tall shouldered and sound go together. That's one thing I think we need to evaluate ⁓ when we put ⁓ together. But yeah, I mean, you know If you wanna if you if you only wanna talk about what they should be commercially, then you should go to a commercial barn and look at those till your heart's content. If you if you're going to a pig show, then that's the arena you chose to step into, right? A pig show, cattle show, sheep goat, whatever it is. That's the arena you're choosing to play in. And I always say like I I can't go play a game and get beat and then be really mad at the way it was scored. Right? Like I knew how it was gonna get scored going in, you know, and that's kinda how I am with some of these things. I I work in the commercial world, I am I'm from the commercial world, I I make my living in the commercial livestock industry, right? And so some of this stuff hurts my soul a little bit, but at the same time it's what we choose to do and we're not changing this. Let's just go enjoy it and play the play the game the way that the game's being played.

speaker-1: Well and I think that's some of this. ⁓ you know, ⁓ and I see the comments talking about it's not like it used to be, and I agree it's not. And do I wish in some ways that the show world and the real world were closer together? I I like the idea of that. The reality is that's just not where we are today. And if you want to be competitive in the show world, these are the things that are gonna need the boxes that are gonna need to get checked. I do really like the county fairs. There's some of them that will still do a hanging carcass show, either they'll scan the pigs and score them based on scanning or they will go ahead and harvest those animals and then do a full score on those carcasses. I love the idea of that giving more kids an opportunity to exhibit their project in a different way. They're not exhibiting it through the ring but exhibiting it on the rail, which is probably more real world practical and teaching those kids about that. I love that. It's just not the arena that most of us are are playing in when we're talking about the l show livestock world today.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I was so fortunate when I grew up. I mean, when I was in high school, and I've talked about him before, but man, I had the greatest ag teacher and he's still shout out Tom Yonts, who's beginning his fiftieth year ⁓ in Southeastern High School as an ag teacher. ⁓ he's his desk has been in the same spot for fifty years in the same classroom. But we we judge meats, right? We were part of the meats judging program through FFA, and so we went into coolers and we judged carcasses and we judged, you know, box retail cuts and and even had to discuss them and give reasons on ⁓ And so when you see that and then you apply that on foot, I think that's a different level of education. And I realize now how fortunate I was to get it really early on, 'cause most people never get that experience. And man, until you've got that experience, ⁓ I don't I don't know that you're fully prepared to to To have an understanding of exactly what all these things do, right? Or what's truly important. And a great example. We've got a land race bearer that is actually a transfer portal pig from your family that I think's great, right? He is good looking and sound and fresh. He weighs 250 pounds and he's gonna be great when he gets another 30 pounds on him. He's also not very big-legged, right? And so you walk in there and he's last in a class of land race market hogs that are way past their prime. Because his bones aren't big enough, and all I can think to myself is those big legs are gonna end up on the floor at some point. Right? Like Let's face it, that truly isn't a really important thing when we cut him off at some point in this pig's life. And it just kinda makes me scratch my head or shake my head or hit myself in the head sometimes when I'm like, I don't r truly understand that why that's become so important. No but

speaker-1: Ha ha. But the reality is it is important. And so when we're selecting these things as baby pigs, and I will tell you, since that was a transport portal for me, and he might not have had a good day when we showed him either for those same reasons, he was bigger legged as a baby pigs too. And so he but he his bones didn't grow with the rest of his body and ⁓ to your point he's round bodied and he's big backed. Doesn't matter 'cause in this in this setting, because his legs aren't big enough. And the ⁓ the one time I've taken a ⁓ little course on meats judging, I do remember I got I didn't do well because when I was looking at ham slices I picked the biggest bone in the middle and I basically was told, You're an idiot you know, that's bad.

speaker-0: So That's exactly right. That's a bad thing when we get up there. So no, it just ⁓ I guess it makes me laugh. When I get done cussing and throwing rocks, then I start laughing about it. That's what it comes down to.

speaker-1: Well, you know what, speaking of big legged animals, I think that leads us right to the last one and and the last term that we do hear a lot is the term dense. And so what do what does a judge typically mean when they're talking about one that is dense?

speaker-0: Yeah, to me dense incor in just encompasses a lot of things, right? And I think when I think density, I just simply think there's a lot of animal packed in that frame, right? And and if you look at just like size across some animals at the s exact same frame size are simply gonna weigh more, right? And that's what I think of when I think of dense. And so, you know, I've got a bear that was second class this weekend that is extremely dense. Dense and he's a moderate frame pig that weighs 240. He is real boxy in the way he's built, he's big in his rib, and he just weighs a lot in a moderate frame, right? There's a lot of animal packed in that frame size. Those animals I think typically are really round bodied or round ribbed. I think they're really heavy boned typically in that regard, right? And they're just wide built and and really, really round and boxy in their build. Right. And I think that's typically what we think of as dense. Now, a lot of times we see that and and they're also really hairy. And this pig is as well. And so he's got tons of leg hair, tons of body hair, and he's just really dense and boxy and hairy. So we too often think of those two things as they go together. And in reality they're not really related, right? But typically those denser built ones are hairier and a little more trendy from a show pig standpoint. And so you kinda see those things roll together. But that's what I think of as just pigs of the same frame, which one weighs more in the same frame size, and that's a pig that's just denser built. Right. I've always been a really dense person, right? That's why that's what I say. Instead of I just weigh too much, right? When you're six one and you weigh two fifty all the time, you're just dense. And I like to think of myself as dense.

speaker-1: No, you're just not tall enough. It's not that you weigh too much, it's that you're not tall enough.

speaker-0: That's right. Yes, yes, I'm boxy.

speaker-1: If you were six eight, yeah it wouldn't be that you wouldn't feel the same way. That's this is why I think dense is a little bit of a confusing term 'cause you always think of density in their body. I would say the first thing that comes to mind for me is big footed, big legged animal, right? And so when I hear that term dense, that's my gr my mind probably immediately goes to kind of structure is where they're talking. And I know they go hand in hand a lot. Same with and it's probably a similar term to the word stout, right? But there's some ambiguity when you use that term. And so when you start off with a popular Positive this one's dense and hairy. ⁓ you know, I think could we be talking center body, could we be talking amount of muscle, or could we just be talking structure? I think it probably ⁓ it probably gets a little bit in the weeds for some people at some points in time there and totally understand why that's a confusing term. To your point though, they normally go hand in hand with each other.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's another one of those things the one thing I will I will just say if I'm if if any if any judges ever ask me for advice, which none of you do and that's totally fine. This advice is probably bad. I think too often we throw out terms like that and don't explain what we mean, right? It's no different than saying this one looks like a show pig. Well, explain to us exactly what you mean by that, at least at least once or twice throughout the day, right? Just He looks like a show pig because he's long necked and short backed and he's big legged and that's to me what show pigs need to look like. But just to throw that out, that term can be so it's well it is, it's so ambiguous and it looks different to me than it does you, no different than dense. If I'm gonna say he's dense, I'm gonna say that one is dense bodied and he's round in the way he's built and like he just packs a lot of punch. because to me, like bone probably goes along with that, but I don't think about bone. ⁓ when I think about dents, right? I think when I hear ⁓ talk about heavy structured and big legged, I think bone. So I think it's one of those things as judges, you just gotta make sure that you ⁓ that you just explain a little bit on some of those terms. ⁓ just take the time just to explain exactly what you're talking about. And I think it helps everybody, you know, I whether you win or lose, I've always said this and it and it rings pretty true to me. Whether you win or lose, man, if you if I feel like you saw them right and you explained them well, I can probably live with that. Now I might not like what you did, right? But I can I can I can live with it. You know, like that that that kind of suits me, right? But man, when when you're impossible to understand what you meant, ⁓ yeah it it really becomes confusing when you're not ⁓ when you're just standing around listening to somebody judge a show.

speaker-1: Well, those are the three terms that have been sent to us. Guys, if you have more, please send them in. Big picture I think takeaway today is we're talking show pig world. It is different than commercial world. We understand it. We're not gonna change it. So we got a couple options. We jump on board and enjoy the ride and have fun with our kids, or we stand on the sidelines and complain that it's not like it used to be. You and I have chosen to jump on board. We realize there's some discrepancies there, but we're gonna have a good time with our family doing it doing it in the process.

speaker-0: Yeah. I always use the golfer analogy, right? Like man, when I'm when I'm in the commercial world it's like trying to be a good golfer, right? Like the good golfers that can win the masters because they can drive it in the fairway and they can hit a shot to the green and they can putt, right? When I think about the show pig world, I literally think about those freaks swinging in the long drive contest that grunt and, you know, they're bigger than me and they just grunt like crazy and you think, Man, like that's so ridiculous looking, right? Those guys are never gonna win the masters, but they win at what they do, and to me that's kinda like where we are here. Like, you know, hey, what are we doing? Well we're trying to find the best, the wildest, freakiest one we possibly can, and everybody's trying to do it, and so that's what the contest becomes, right? Who's the freakiest?

speaker-1: And and I think that's a perfect analogy, 'cause if you watch those long drive contests, they miss the fairway an awful lot. But they're gonna hit it. They're gonna hit it every once in a while, and when they do it's gonna be four hundred and fifty yards down the way, right? And so

speaker-0: Yeah, Jarrett's old hitting coach used to always tell him, Swing hard, you might hit it you know. And that's kinda what we do at Showpigs, like, Swing like crazy, you might hit this one you know. And when you hit it it's really fun

speaker-1: And there's a reason that you know what, w you and I both buy probably too many of them at times. It's 'cause we're swinging hard and we realize we're gonna miss the fairway an awful awful lot.

speaker-0: That is right. So yeah, but great deal. But here's what your my f final parting thought is, man, congratulations to those folks that put on IYE ⁓ because it's become a huge ⁓ huge event here in the Midwest. The other piece that I say every time is, man, you can be anything, choose to be nice, choose to choose to ⁓ honor those people around you. ⁓ you said something before. We don't have to be a critic. Sometimes we could be a servant and we could go about things with a servant's heart. If you're making decisions where you're putting yourself ahead of others because you don't pick up your trash or you decide to park people in and just kinda be a jerk about things. Man, you do better. We want you here, but we want you to do better. So let's be nice.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Our phrase our phrase this trip as a family has been let's have an attitude of gratitude. And so, you know, we y you know ⁓ you know us around here, we like our dumb phrases at times, so ⁓ attitude of gratitude probably encompasses most of that, so

speaker-0: Every time. So it's awesome. Cannot wait. Enjoy the rest of your trip. ⁓ do not wrestle with a bison. All right. To the front, baby. To the front has been brought to you by TTF Nutrition. Livestock supplements that get you to the front.

speaker-1: I I'd lose. Hey, if you guys enjoy the show, please like, comment, and subscribe. If you didn't enjoy the show, please like and subscribe anyways.