Speaker 2: right, security, physical security has solved this. For our generation, they evolved as well. And they went from like very friction-oriented kind of your TSA where you have to stand in line and like interact. In the office, you don't have to do that. And why? Because we the physical security learned that you need to, in order for to you to engage your community, your staff, you need to make it easy for them. So what You go through the background check, you get out of your badge, you have to wear it in front of you. There's a reason for that. Because every interaction, every step that you take, somebody that you're talking to will seamlessly check you against your identity. So right, so now we're talking about digital, as it evolved, we have a you you go through the same process, you get vetted, you get onboarded into the system, you got your password username and password, and that's it. One time. And then every time you the only thing you're challenged for is either something you have, something you know, right? So you you're something you have maybe your phone, which you potentially opened or not, maybe not you, you have Initially a thumbprint, one only an initial access point, and that's it. We never do it. And the reason why we don't do it is because it's too much friction to SQ all the time. So that's where the problem is. You let somebody in, you can have multiple ways of either somebody collaborating with somebody else trying to make more money by multiple jobs, holding multiple jobs, outsourcing. North Koreans coming in, impersoning somebody else and then sitting at that and doing the work and many

Speaker 1: So I mean in your opinion like the way it ought to work. you know super bad guy

Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much build the face.

Speaker 1: And it's a physical it's like a real validation.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, continuously because just I can hand over a badge to you and you can do something else, right?

Speaker 1: I don't know the I know the witness.

Speaker 2: Because passport is we knew everybody the industry has realized it's it's wrong. That's why we start building this pass keys and different MFA talk capabilities, but they're all friction and they're all assertions. It's there just because you have a pass key, just because you have a phone open, does not mean it's you. It just means that somebody

Speaker 1: Somewhere women exist and somebody did.

Speaker 2: So if some if you point a gun at me and say, open the phone, then I'm gonna open the phone. If you're at an airport as an example, right? To the MTSA actually asked him to open his phone. He did something different, but they could have let him open the phone and it could be an international entity, could be China or could be anything else. So they forced you to open the phone. Now you have no Side he also wiped the device. Now, if it's a corporate device, now you have liabilities in a different way because you jurisdictionally now liability.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean I it there's a massive industry that's right. I mean if if you want to open up your next billion dollar company or whatever. somebody funds it. So I like why why does the industry keep going after this problem? It seems like it's solved, but it still is a giant market for investment.

Speaker 2: So we have a tension problem. We

Speaker 1: End of the

Speaker 2: all we have a problem ahead of us. We're like, this is a flesh new issue, let's solve that. And we're not looking at the bigger pictures from an architecture perspective. Where is the root cause of it? Like even going back. It's insane. But I think it's it's just well those engineers are mostly developers, right? So I'm an

Speaker 1: So it's one developer and engineer is kind of a sort of freak out. But I focus a jury, I get

Speaker 2: Okay. It's somebody else. or maybe it's more because I'm an architect by trade. That's maybe why I look at a bigger picture first. so I I I take it back. Engineers are good. They they have a problem they need to solve, they go and solve it. It's the architectural mindset where you look at the bigger picture and seeing what are the tent tentacles, what are the root causes, and then you fix the entirety of the problem instead of Focusing online.

Speaker 1: Solving the problem so you fix the problem.

Speaker 2: Solving yes, what whatever

Speaker 1: Yeah, passwords suck, this fixed passwords was like that.

Speaker 2: No, no. Passwords is in there around. We're gonna just build walls. It's I don't know if you saw the meme where you have like a bunch of blocks put in together and there's like the one stick. That's exactly what's happening. It's the same with an internet, same thing with password, it's the same thing with DNS, right? Everything

Speaker 1: But then everybody always argues we 'cause I'm a huge fan of biometrics. Like I think bi I use biometrics on my logins, I use biometrics as much as I can. But then you have the folks that are like, Well, if someone ever gets your fingerprint then you're law it's like, Well, I would rather risk that than my

Speaker 2: that usually has been breached seven thousand times over. I yes. I I think there is so yes you're absolutely right. However I think the r there is a reason why people are afraid of it right because you can't change it. That's where you can kind of change. when you Yeah. Is you can still biometrics only at the initial stage. That's that's where the problem metrics are all when you're Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: It's like tuned on to my yeah, there's an AI for you right there. Anyway, I can do it.

Speaker 2: So you're talking about biometrics. Okay, so yeah, so the biometrics is a problem when you're doing it just initially, right? So deep both from biometrics facial biometrics to to voice recogn voice biometrics, all of that is bypassable initial or one time, right? If you you can build a small kind of interactive video or you build an interactive voice compos right like recurring voice thing that you that can get you over the hump of initial access where it becomes it more difficult to bypass is it my hand okay sorry I'm yeah so right so you can bypass it initially but when you actually start operating Really hard, right? Because you can only you have to have so much more processing power and a lot more work to actually get you to continuously have this deep fake capability. Now, again, it's still a problem where I I think that what we need to get to is that this cannot this doesn't have to be a problem if you literally own the device. So if you're sit if you have a corporate device. If you have a corporate device I have to keep my hands down. Just very unnatural for me. So talking talking about So the the when you when when you continuously when you when you have a corporate device that you have Detect some malicious drivers or some bypasses, right? You can now not worry about deep fixes, right? Because you can see when they're trying to do it, right? Or you can see certain there's behaviors on the device. So if you do that and you do continuous biometrics, you're kind of doing a trip because even if so, let's say you want to bypass it, right? And I've talked to a bunch of Like, yeah, we can bypass it if we put an iPad in front of it. It's reflected. But you need to get to the keyboard. You need to know a lot about the person. And you need to pre-build this thing. So your attack vector becomes so smaller. your okay you can access your laptop but if you know where the person is your trusted person not just any person

Speaker 1: Person came in through verification validation law.

Speaker 2: Then continuously doing that, right? And you and you can tell where they are at every step, every asset that you they're accessing, every data set, every third-party application. If you know that, then you can prevent any abuse of identity, right? Go speaking of lateral movement, reduction of even if you get access into initially, you can reduce Exploit and exploit is anomaly versus it is right

Speaker 1: It should be, yeah.

Speaker 2: because authentication is not an anomaly, right? But true authentication is true is you're trusting that person. If it's true. Exactly. It's an insider threat. If I own your identity, I'm representing you, both the staff has a liability, and there's no detection capability, and the corporation has a insider.

Speaker 1: interesting. Yeah, I and if I mean if the premise of all this cyber security stuff that we're doing is what is it 80% of breaches occur with username password like and it's been it's been

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: we've been writing about that in the Dipper and all those things for a decade like how is this even still a conversation? Well, I mean is it just 'cause the market is so focused on this as a solution it's easy for VCs to make money on? Like what's the

Speaker 2: It's a great question and there it's a very complex my my opinion, right? This is my perspective on this. So VCs do have some some implication there, but it's not as much. Where the the industry has been really undergoing recently a transition. I think if we were talking five years to earlier, the conversation for Still is, but people are starting to realize the liability that comes with these this gap that we have. where in a broad sense, in terms of identity up impersonation or basically theft and compromise through this identity, because there there's no way you can detect it. Even behaviors, everything can be comp can be stolen and abused. To gain access. And if you do that, it's too easy for an attacker. Because you you can blend in and this is what they wanted. So the problem is, and I and I kind of look back at when I started, right? I started about two years ago from a couple of conversations that I had with CISOs and other professionals who were were challenged with like how do we tell that a outsourced staff is the one that went through the background check that's gotten the corporate laptop and is it right?

Speaker 1: like a that's like two levels removed from what you could possibly control. Like I can't I can't validate that necessarily.

Speaker 2: Can't it's actually worse. So when I had that conversation, I'll come back to the specifically to that point because it's actually more removed and there's actually influences separately from just security. So when you when when those conversations when I started having conversation about this and I was trying to look for a product. It ended up I would have realized there no product. Then I started looking at why. And when I s when I c had a conversation with different professionals within the industry, everybody, every third or fourth person would tell Cell phones, flip phones that really didn't do anything. And Apple came out like face ID. Everybody was screaming yell, no way would anybody use it. But guess what?

Speaker 1: Fifty times a day. Fifty times an hour sometimes.

Speaker 2: And tell me why, because it's easy. It's easy.

Speaker 1: And I actually have more faith in that than I have in all the other authentication methods. So yeah, so it makes tons of sense to me.

Speaker 2: Right, so so easy is the key. So the the problem has been is that with the previous with the older technology it was you had to have a lot

Speaker 1: And it was like it was

Speaker 2: Clue G, you didn't have the capability after you didn't have GPUs on the phones, you didn't have a lot of things. now everybody all the every phone has a GPU, has a specialized camera with 3D capabilities. And that's where the actually where the so going back to kind of like progression, I these days, maybe every 20th conversation I had, they're like, You have a camera on all the time, and we talk about private. see that we privacy focus first, privacy focus first, and security first because I'm I'm a hacker, right? But

Speaker 1: he's dead in a way. Like I I hate that conversation. Like sorry. I'm

Speaker 2: It's

Speaker 1: just like, sure, you're probably okay, privacy matters. I mean, just this is tangential, but it's interesting to get your perspective on it too, just because I I hate the conversation around privacy. I'm literally working on

Speaker 2: podcast right I thought privacy's dead do you all that yes

Speaker 1: It is kinda because you're just talking about Apple, right? Apple was the bastion of privacy. Guess who's coming out with new Apple glasses that record everything? So privacy's just totally dead. And for somebody to go, Well, your camera's on, your camera and your microphone are on, whether you know it or not. I mean just say something like, you know, when you're home next time, here's a here's a Falando então. Start talking about how much you like a particular type of shoe. Watch

Speaker 2: And then what

Speaker 1: what happens to your ads and that stuff. You know.

Speaker 2: Well if you can tell it Siri do something or hey Google, they're listening, that's the only way it can trigger. Right. So yes, you're right. So recently the conversation has been has changed significantly, actually the last probably year. and because of the realization, because of this the things. Now going back to the original question, why industry doesn't solve the problem. because it's too easy to result resol resolve to like MFA.

Speaker 1: 'Cause if you resolve this, don't you kill the golden goose of lots and lots of potential money?

Speaker 2: Yes, that too. So we yeah, I can tell you we we have some solutions that are actually like reduces

Speaker 1: investment in this stuff and I sit there and I go like, Well wait a minute, if I invest in this I already plans to make another hundred million dollars

Speaker 2: So like why would I just that too? I yes, so there's definitely VC and potential influence. Again, I don't have visibility to it, but I I can see

Speaker 1: Really that's enjoying.

Speaker 2: right. But think of it this way, right? It's it's easy to do MFA because you just call an API for the phone and you're done. Like it already has 3D camera, it's already has capability, you just need to do that. So doing continuous, and you can't do it with continuous authentication and verification on the phone because you work on the laptop. You phone, you take it for a second, and then you do something else, right? It's a mobile device, it's not intended for permanent use all the time, at least. So everybody that's in security, that's trying to do biometric verification, they're using the phone. And that's where the the root of the specifically sold in the continuous verification aside from VC. So quicker, right? Quicker to market, faster, cheaper. so what we did, we ended up having to redesign the entire biometrics because And they were until customer to have to buy new laptops with GPUs and cam and specialized cameras. It's an expensive capability and it just doesn't make sense. And also like it needs to run on all the computers. Like we have cap our 10-year, 13-year-old computers with a CPU and camera has to be on all the time, but it's a nine-way of work. So it's seamless. It's like you're doing, like you're experiencing in the office where your biometrics is sitting in front of you, your CCTV cameras always looking at you, and it's verifying, and people verifying you all the time. So again, not capturing the video. It's on device verification of your app. also provides power is detecting physical risks. So somebody if you sitting in a coffee shop and somebody a spy intentionally knocks over a coffee at you that's not you're running you run to the to the bathroom right that's not your reaction is not to lock the computer. Yeah you'll freak out. Right. Your your your physical needs are are first right so so and they can sit there. Well If you know where the trusted person is, you can prevent physical impersonations, right? Somebody sitting at the at the laptop. And by the way, if somebody's sitting in the laptop and it's not locked, your security Yeah.

Speaker 1: So in that in that scenario, like person sitting at a coffee shop, someone s wants to get their information, knocks hot coffee to the lap, their crotch is burnt into

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: the bathroom, laptop is left there, bad guy grabs stuff and rolls away, changes logins, now he's got If that had this side of the equation solved, wouldn't matter. Like if you saw

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: my laptop, sucks for me, but big deal I get another one.

Speaker 2: Well first of all it will abstract the screen and lock and as soon as that person comes in it will lock the screen. It will lock your computer. So that's not you. They're not you. or somebody smoothing behind you, that can be detected. so yes, that's the physical side of it, but it just comes as a benefit. The digital side is really where the power comes.

Speaker 1: Interesting. I mean I I'm still just like at a loss for why this is such a complicated problem. And I mean I see folks like yourself that are out there talking, you know, to and there's same stuff and slightly different versions. And one group I literally found out they had considered that their seven million dollar investment would have basically invalidated a company's And you know, some other companies that are out there doing good stuff that are having trouble like getting people to go, yes, we should invest in this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well I guess for me I I wasn't really I haven't actively looked for investment but

Speaker 1: So guys are doing it the old-fashioned way, boost wrapping customers growth.

Speaker 2: Right. Well well the the the the key for me is when I started when I decided to go on this journey one of the things I've learned a lot. Like this is my first product startup. I've started businesses before, so that's not that wasn't something new, but the product side is a little different. I've developed huge mission mission critical DOD solutions from an architect. Part of my kind of initiation to the startup journey is that VCs actually has influence. And what bothered me significantly is that a VC may basically undermine my capabilities, may influence the solution, kind of to take away, let's say, a secure development lifecycle, to not do validation of the code. Because we also like very just recently started to use Claude just to support validation, not as much for development. We're very kind of old school. I bring in very sing senior developers that kind of And they know what they're doing. And I don't want to have some twenty some or thirty year old that doesn't know anything about computers says you need to go faster and you need to cut corners. Because I security is the most important thing for me in privacy.

Speaker 1: I mean where where where do we go? Like what's what's the market look like or what's this problem space look like in a few years? 'Cause I don't see how it continues to stand on the feet that it has now. Like it's some of these people are starting to go like, wait a minute, this IAM password stuff is just not gonna hold.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so the industry actually realized it a little while ago. Like you saw a lot of MAs going continuous authentication plays for being purchased by large companies. The the challenge with that and then they're not solving an easy problem like behavioral analytics, right, on your keyboard strokes and stuff like that. But those are Right? And they're tied like even so Microsoft does continuous verification of the IT.

Speaker 1: Windows machine I use sign on elementrics.

Speaker 2: Right, and hello is always on. Right. So but here you here's the catch. Windows hello is only poor device. It's tied to that device, it's not federated. So where that's where the problem really lies. And they and like even password less, right? FIDO two is great, right? But it's again, if you steal a session or you steal the token, then you're Left back, your back. Yeah. So if you can tie that, though all of those pieces are great, but if you seamlessly can tie that into continuous physical verification of the person that has that has that identity, that has that token, then you just solve the entire fabric of the identity and your true zero trust access management, not just a kind of assumption.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I I think any time you're gonna do a a Z T implementation biometrics and this type of authentication has to be part of it 'cause otherwise you're not you're not really Z Ting it to be perfectly different. It's just you

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: know, it's lipstick on pig on a lot.

Speaker 2: You what bothers bothered me at the right and you a lot of companies doing the same thing in the same way is they're all about we're gonna replace the entire thing right we're gonna replace everything you have we have this one overarching tool and when you start digging in what they're doing is aggregating

Speaker 1: That's it. That's really what calls the aggregation.

Speaker 2: And they're like, we do pam on you. I'm like, how do you do that? we tie into your identity I don't even want to start it on AI, right? That that the that securing AI is just a shame, right?

Speaker 1: What cataclysm is coming?

Speaker 2: Crazy, but they're not solving the problem. This is the problem. So let's if you let's let's go back for a second. If you know where the trusted person is all the time, then you it's not just access, remote access, or but it's SSO. Nobody wants to talk about SSO, right? We don't validate SSO all the time, we do it. best for eight for

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: eight hours best. some go 32 hours. And if it's god forbid if somebody does it an hour, like now you're like getting interrupted every time.

Speaker 1: some bitching and money.

Speaker 2: Exactly. And it's and it breaks first of all it's in in it it breaks your productivity. So if there's productivity test text on that, there is you lose data and lose like it frustrates me all the time. But if you knew ahead of time where the person is that initiated a session and where they initiated it from, then by default, if you just know, then you can Check SSO every renew token. You can do it every call if you want. Just depends on your performance.

Speaker 1: Users might The worst of it.

Speaker 2: There exact exact. So I should have right. So when when they walk away, because you already know they walked away or somebody else said in, you can just interrupt the s the session and you disqualify disqualify the session token. So no more hijacking of tokens.

Speaker 1: So what you're describing with the walking away stuff, is actually really Here's what happened. So this company, large company, asked me to come in and sort of be vetted for C Sylvester, right? So anyway, I go in. Silicon Valley shops get their Well there

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: are developers. All of them just got up and went to eat. Nobody logged off. So all their machines were all logged in. This is a multi-billion dollar company. And what I He goes off his own. 'Cause and sure enough, a year or something later they got breached big time. But and the reason they didn't do that was because he said, Well we don't want to interrupt their productivity. Right. And it was like

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Is worth is interrupting their productivity worth your company? But it's

Speaker 2: have to be that way. It's exactly this is the key. Secure I I it it drives me crazy when people say we we need to balance security and productivity. That is not a user experience that we that any forget look at the any industry. User experience has to be the seamless as possible. Look, if you're if you have a nurse or a doctor sitting at a at a at a workstation that's there's an emergency, you can't expect them to lock the computer. Yes. So this is where the it and it's across any industry. Look at the the critical infrastructure, right? and this is one of the one So our CEO had a conversation with a CISO of critical infrastructure, very fairly large one. And it's one of our clients for the for professional services company. and there was a conversation, he interrupted the conversation in the middle and said, Look, I have this problem. I had we have a staff that came over to me and was was concerned that they were troubleshooting with technology. Particular product, and one day they were doing it for a week or so, and one day the voice changed. Now, this person had corporate laptop, corporate identity, and embedded like background check that is higher than just regular background check, and they were international. So now you have somebody voice change. No security alerts ever happen, right? Because they're legitimate, like they digital world that look legitimate nothing would tell you. Right? So that's that's and that's one of the reasons why our sir our services company built actually a a new solution that's even like that takes this zero trust and kind of starts expanding it to different pieces. Now the key with my at least my this is my perspective. for ease of use, ease of implementation. You don't I'm not like none of my our solutions or product replace anything per se. Right? They are part of the they just create this fabric that's not of by tying your existing identity provider you can even do in your SIM, right? Because you now it's have if you tying in to any identity provider, now you create that even an older version like Management systems, you can now layer them as a zero trust because now you have that continuous verification. So that's what it's needed. We don't want to we don't need to replace and rip and replace everything, right?

Speaker 1: Same for

Speaker 2: So you don't have to change

Speaker 1: Like the new layer in the biometric piece and this other

Speaker 2: Biometrics is actually what causes you to have that continuous knowledge about the trusted person. And it because we create standardized interfaces, right? So MFA endpoint and supporting SAML and OIDC, we now create this plug and play capability that you can just tie your existing existing security stack to it, just empowering it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, 'cause I mean the like it's it's interesting just from my spot on the market 'cause I sit between like government and vendors and stuff that we've been talking about for the last X number of years is starting to It's not replaced because there's ways to do this well. So like the arguments against it are becoming exponential. Like you almost nowadays, if you're somebody, big business, small business enterprise, there or whatever, if I'm in a room with you and we're having a conversation about strategy, you almost have to like tell me you just don't want to do this. Because there's not

Speaker 2: There's not. There's

Speaker 1: a really good reason. Easier for the user. Faster stuff, like there will be an onboarding part, but so what there's that with everything. Correct. And then Maybe

Speaker 2: But it's so the the we thought about all that, right? The deployment is sovereign to the organization. It is so complicated, the database that we build, it's all you even if you stall the database, reverse engineer, you will have a hard time connecting the actual identity to the biometer.

Speaker 1: I mean you guys I mean that's yeah, architecturally encryption and all that stuff. I I just like I'm sitting here sort of thinking, you know, some of the things that are becoming newer or more accepted in the market. Like I used to fight people tooth and nail on I don't think that there's this maybe the maybe the the rock has started to get to the top of the hill and these types of approaches are coming, you know, to make it easier for everybody.

Speaker 2: Hopefully

Speaker 1: UC is a whole other issue.

Speaker 2: Yes, business to customer and like again there's a lot of solutions, unfortunately, and again we can we our technology is capable of solving the problem. bank portal instead of having to pull out the phone that she might not have smartphone she might be able to use her current laptop that can be done it's for KYC. Now there's a lot of privacy concerns in that because you're you are sharing over the network even if it's CLS encrypted even if it's not

Speaker 1: People would give away their firstborn child for like free, you know, stuff on Facebook, privacy.

Speaker 2: Yes, look at look at the at the conference of man. but y you're right. What if we the messaging needs to change, right? It's C C and guess what? If somebody tries to s to social engineer you they can't.

Speaker 1: We could probably social theory, but that might be anything worth it.

Speaker 2: So they they get your you to open to give you the password or or click on the SMS. Well if you don't need SMS or you don't need you don't need to have a any kind of session. Like you just if if it's only you that can open that that's that conversation and it's easy, now you don't need to do it just once. Now you can do it every sensitive transaction or if there is behavior that doesn't look right. This is true behavior like when we talk about UBA, everything else is just noise. This is true UBA. If somebody else is there, right, if not you, tries to access, you know. First of all we block it. Second of all we notify. And you can take forensics evidence that's encrypted in time.

Speaker 1: Big stuff is not

Speaker 2: So if you bring your own device or like a KYC perspective where you have your own laptop, there is limit we can do we would do the technology is there to reduce the risk or detect some risky potentials. in order for us to really do it right, we would need to deploy some scripting into the environment or have browser extensions.

Speaker 1: Mm. big problems like what that's if somebody's going to the level of deep faking and doing all those other things like they really want your shit about the problem we'll deal with three percent later.

Speaker 2: So let's solve the 80%. Well th okay, so let's step back for a second. Why do we care about initial like initial access and s theft of identity in the individual used to get everybody was is talking about initial access. Well guess what? With AI, initial access is wrong. Right? It's a given. Right? You're done. Where you need to focus is containing So if if somebody gets access to that lap. containing it in that space is right that's where you your breast the blast radius reduced because if if you can make it harder not to access but harder to lateral move or steal session and replay it somewhere else that's where the money is because because if you again as I as I mentioned in the beginning like lateral movement we As soon as you get on, no matter how you got on, either you stole the credentials or you or you got to exploitation, lateral movement is really identity. Your credentials,

Speaker 1: yeah. It's a

Speaker 2: you dump a session, you

Speaker 1: Captain.

Speaker 2: So if you just die it all in and you can't get to ident to the the main control anymore because you can't dump the cat the the cache hashes, right?

Speaker 1: So, I mean, where do we go from here? That's the next step. Like is this is the approach that's makes sense, do you think it's becoming part of the conversation? Or is this, are we still doing years from actually making this thing? I think biometrics is in this approach is starting to kind of filter its way in.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I think what the I think it is. I think the conversations are definitely there. Like even if we we AI is a delegated identity. If your human that you allow to delegate, which makes sense, Claude. Claude is a delegate, but if you can't prove that it's your trusted person, then all of your promises of security, all of your invisibility become moot because as an attacker I can now live off the AI land and It's even exponentially increases my ability as an attacker to You start from there and how what's the problem? And let's solve it this way, not visibility solve it. I'm sorry. If I see a problem with AI, it's way too late. Even detection, if I see somebody compromising, how many every single news article of a compromise the detection was after ransomware is executed? That's a symptom of an end ball, not a compromise. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Hey, you got no face. The grenade went off.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I detected that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So let's let's go back. Let's start reversing this and let's prevent it first.

Speaker 1: This is a very left of boom type of thing, right? Which is funny 'cause I mean there was conferences about left of boom and whatever. And anytime you start getting people to realize like there is a way to solve this problem, they go, well, you know, it's like

Speaker 2: Yeah, do And or something like that. This is, but we're having these conversations and they're coming through. Look, one of the I mentioned we designed this new thing, and you know Silas, right? We develop this talking about leftover, we developed this capability, a solution that not just extends visibility, it actually removes the perimeter expansion, which everybody's talking about perimeter expansion. But guess what? If you look back and you think about Visibility so we can secure them. First, we need we gave them access, and they're wait, wait, wait, wait. We gave axe and we need to secure it. So now we're putting all these bells and whistles on it, RMM that can break your computer but and wipe all your personal data, great, or steal it. We're actually the VPN is not a security product, it is a tunnel.

Speaker 1: Just like firewalls are not a security problem.

Speaker 2: So why don't we remove the need for a VPN? And how do we do that? We remove a value of the endpoint. Because laptop that smooths with your workforce that goes internationally, we talked about that in those cases, right? That can be forced to open and get data, or access to your network, by the way. Or traveling salesperson that kind of works in the airport. Well if you can it and it's a and it's a great attack bar vector both from physical and l and social engineering perspective. So if we remove that as an attack vector, we just your perimeter. So taking something that doesn't retain even your secrets, attaching it to only the right person, only the right device can access your enterprise services and continuously verify your the individual, you have no access into the network.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's well you could you can get to the end point.

Speaker 2: There's nothing on there.

Speaker 1: There's the hard target concept of like if somebody's gonna break in why would I Alright, so if you listen to this, like I said again, top secret, super secret location, still building this out, but Eugene from Spiler and thanks for

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: And we'll catch up on the far end of it, but SPI alert.

Speaker 2: SPI Alert dot com.

Speaker 1: So SBI alert.com. using biometrics and this is this type stuff.