Dr. Karalynn Royster: Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast, the podcast for smart, intentional, millennial moms raising resilient kids after separation and divorce. I'm Dr. Karalynn Royster, a child psychologist, coach, and a mom. After thousands of therapy hours with kids caught in the middle of high conflict households, I'm here to help moms like you do it differently. From peaceful co-parenting to total chaos, I've got you. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Kids First Co-Parenting. If you found this helpful, the best way you can support the show is by following, rating, and reviewing wherever you listen to podcasts and by sharing it with another mom who could use the support. You can also connect with me on Instagram and Facebook at Learn with Little House, where I share daily tips and encouragement for moms raising kids through high conflict divorce. welcome everybody to another episode. ⁓ here today with Andra Davidson, And she is a divorce coach. One of the first people met when I started doing kids first co-parenting, I really wanted to bring Andra on to talk Just a quick disclaimer, this podcast is for general information and education only. It is not legal advice, it is not mental health treatment, and listening does not create a therapist-client relationship. Laws and clinical needs vary, so please consult a licensed professional in your area who can evaluate and help you with your specific situation. And if you are in a dangerous situation or feel unsafe, contact local or domestic violence resources right away. this Dr. Royster coming in to you to let you know, my wonderful listeners, ⁓ that made some really exciting changes to the kids first co-parenting system. Because co-parenting with a difficult X is not something that you go through a program. ⁓ Andra Davidson is a certified divorce coach, mediator, and the creator of the Better Than Divorce system. She works with capable, responsible adults lives normally run well, but who find divorce destabilizing. ⁓ Through courses and partnerships with family law professionals, Andra helps clients steady their emotions, communicate more effectively, And if you're ready to go deep and get more tools, scripts, personalized support and coaching, come join us inside the Kids First co-parenting community. You'll find the details at learnwithlittlehouse.com. Until next time, remember, your kids don't need you to be perfect. They just need you to be steady and grounded, and as always, to put them first. Thanks for being here. make thoughtful decisions, and move through divorce in ways that protect their children and their future. Here we talk boundaries, regulation, and how to raise a great kid, even if your ex is beyond difficult. This is Kids First Co-Parenting. and you come out the other side and it just magically works. That's not how this works, unfortunately. And so we've revamped the Kids First co-parenting system to be a membership. Come in, get your first month half off, get all the lessons, get your video coaching with the group and myself, of course. Stay as many months as you need If you believe you are in imminent danger, please contact 911. how she got into this space and a little bit about the services she offers because she's an OG, y'all. She's really, really good at what she does and we're lucky to have her. So. Andra Davidson: That might be the first and last time I get called an OG. I'll take it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: I, can take it, you can take it. I'm not really cool enough to say that, but I do say it. Andra, welcome. so happy you're here. Andra Davidson: Thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here. I really appreciate it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Where are you coming to us today? Where are you? Andra Davidson: I am in Denver as well. I am in Denver Metro over by the Wash Park DU area. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Get the support you know that you need. We are here for you. We're inside the community. We've made it a membership so that it can be so much more accessible and affordable for moms just like you. Join us today. ⁓ I would just love to hear, maybe we can start with what it is that you do. What do you offer our community? Andra Davidson: Sure, yes, that's an important thing to start with, I think. I am certified divorce coach. ⁓ I'm also a trained mediator and I'm collaboratively trained. ⁓ And all that to say that I offer divorce coaching services for men and women, but I bring those training skills to that process. So I don't have a mediation practice. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Hahaha Andra Davidson: ⁓ but I do focus on, how we can reduce conflict and minimize the impact of the divorce process ⁓ parents and kids. ⁓ eventually come through on the other side, better than you really thought you could because it is, as ⁓ anybody knows going through it, it is a consuming and depleting and overwhelming process. ⁓ And my Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: goal in working with people is to make it more manageable and help them find some hope and optimism and regain their confidence so that they can show up as their best self as often as, excuse me, as often as possible through this process. And my is called Better Than Before Divorce because that's the goal. ⁓ I people to come out. Dr. Karalynn Royster: My friend. I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, yeah. Andra Davidson: better than before, better than they thought possible. And truly so many people who are through divorce realize that the place that they were in wasn't good, even if they didn't want it right. Once they through the other side, they realize, my gosh, all that stuff I put up with or dealt with or had to ⁓ look the way. And now ⁓ I'm finding again and I'm feeling whole again in so many ways. And that process awakens this joy that I hope we all can find and everybody deserves. And eventually people can look back. And my goal is to help them look back at some point and say, you know what? I am better than I was before this. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I always loved the name of your company. ⁓ one the that I have always wanted to ask is like, do you really believe that? Do you really believe that people come out better? And I suppose we both could agree that sometimes ⁓ not, ⁓ And you that a lot in your work? Andra Davidson: Mm-hmm. No, I actually do see it. I created it because I came up with that name because I realized that's what happened to me. my story ⁓ I was so, I am, I shouldn't say in the past tense, I am so grateful to be in that place every day that I ⁓ absolutely it with clients and I... Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. that's beautiful. Yeah, that's so beautiful. Andra Davidson: absolutely believe that it is possible. And of course you're right, there are going to be situations, nothing is 100%. But in general, one of the foundational beliefs that I have during this process is that you probably can have a better impact on this than you think you can. ⁓ yourself permission to Dr. Karalynn Royster: course. ⁓ Andra Davidson: build on that, right, to work that angle of it, to really be intentional and say, I can choose something different because I want to get to a different place will impact the process. ⁓ and giving yourself that kind of, awareness ⁓ again, permission to say, I'm going to work to do it ⁓ one the biggest game changers. So yes, I do ⁓ see Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andra Davidson: Many times, it's one of my jobs with my clients is to remind them ⁓ something else is out there for them, that they can be hopeful. And I ⁓ it ⁓ the time because I know how depleting it is to be in the middle of it. And you can't necessarily see, you know, ⁓ forest for the trees, right? You just can't, you're so in the weeds, you're so overwhelmed. But somebody else reminding you, look up every now and then, look up. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: There is sunlight coming through there. There is sunlight coming through there. And that is sometimes just the space that I need to hold for people and the reminder that I need to give them because they can't necessarily see it for themselves. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. I think a lot about like the healing process post divorce for kids in particular, but also for parents. I think we really do a disservice when we kind of come in with toxic positivity, right? Like it'll everything happens for a reason. It'll be so great. But what I'm hearing from you is it's not dismissing the pain and the experience and the confusion and the Andra Davidson: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Karalynn Royster: just the exhaustion of it all, But it is acknowledging that we can always grow from hard places and that your lived experience as well as experience with many clients is that somewhere down the road you might ⁓ actually better for it, Even if you can't see that now. Andra Davidson: Yes. And most people can't, truly. mean, most people, exactly. and I think what you said is really important because I do think there can be this feeling for some people that, ⁓ you're just, you know, got this Pollyanna approach to this, you isn't this all going to be sunshine and rainbows if we just, you know, say an affirmation every morning or whatever. And the truth is Dr. Karalynn Royster: Of course not, yeah. Yeah. Andra Davidson: If that is something that builds you up, amazing. I love all kinds of tools that work, but reality is that ⁓ in my opinion, one of the most important things you can do during this process is acknowledge that emotional support is as important as any other support that you're getting, legal, financial, et cetera, because it directly impacts the level of conflict. can the length of the process. therefore that translates to money, how much this costs over the course of how long. And critically important is what that conflict does for your kids. Because we know studies have shown over and over again, it's not divorce that harms kids, it's the conflict. It's the toxicity that they're experiencing between parents and family members. And when we as the adults choose Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: to minimize that for them and to approach this in a way that we want to keep them out of that part of it ⁓ and that we're extremely intentional about that, it can be done. ⁓ And to your point, that's not just dismissing it like it's all gonna be okay. It's actually showing that we can get through hard things, It's okay to model to your kids Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andra Davidson: Yep, this isn't the easiest time of my life, but this is hard, but I'm a strong person and I can get through it and you're strong and you can get through it. And together as a family, that's what we'll do because we're here to support each other. And pretending like those things aren't happening doesn't work. Dr. Karalynn Royster: This is hard. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ugh, I have a whole podcast episode on why just ignore it is terrible advice. Because I think there is a little bit of like a burying your head in the sand and, I wonder if this is one of the places where divorce coaching really works, because we know in stress, sometimes people do shut down and do ⁓ kind of go a place where they're immobilized. And I, ⁓ I suspect you me. Andra Davidson: Mmm. Love that. Dr. Karalynn Royster: that this might be a place where coaching is really helpful, where you can be like, no, no, I need you to do this, you know? Andra Davidson: is and of the reasons I love that thought Karalynn one of the reasons is because Everything feels like a ten right the priorities all feel the same You know making dinner feels as significant as reviewing your financial statements ⁓ and getting your kids to a doctor's appointment or managing a handoff with your soon-to-be ex or your ex and all of things equally big and overwhelming Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: And part of my job as a coach is to help people break it down into manageable, more bite-sized pieces so that they can understand, okay, this might be a six. This I might not even have to deal with for a little while. Like giving yourself permission to say, can come off the table. What do I need to do today? And that's a question that I like to have people answer, What ⁓ has to happen today for you. What can we schedule out a little bit? What do you have to do versus can you ask for any help with anything? A lot of people during divorce don't know that they can ask for extensions on things with their lawyers. Like the financial, ⁓ you disclosures are huge and they can be very consuming. Lots of information to dig up and put together and can be a lot. ⁓ Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andra Davidson: for those of us who are working, parenting, it's not like you just sit down and bang that thing out in 30 minutes. if it is causing you stress and you need the extra time, you have that option, but people don't necessarily know it. And those are some of the small but practical ways that a coach can help you just know, time out, time out, you don't have to do all this at the exact same time. ⁓ they don't always realize it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Right. Right. And I find, I find a lot of mental gymnastics in that space ⁓ ⁓ I ask for this, is it going to look this way? Is my attorney going to be upset? Is this person going to be upset? Is it going to look like I'm hiding something, particularly on the financials, which is less my area. And I think that's where coaches can really be like, okay, actually no, or ⁓ Andra Davidson: You Absolutely. That's a great point. ⁓ my gosh, that's such a good point. Dr. Karalynn Royster: It might, but does that really matter? Is that kind of your take on it? Andra Davidson: Right. ⁓ for sure. And actually, I think that's such a very valid and important point that you bring up, which is the assumptions that drive us generally need to be challenged. you are exactly right. There is a lot of assuming that goes into all of these pieces. I want to look good. ⁓ That if I ask for an extension or I ask questions, I won't look as good to my attorney or ⁓ They might not think I'm as smart or as prepared or they might not like me. ⁓ I, attorneys are very often surprised when I tell them that clients ask me, do you think my attorney likes me? And they're like, what do you mean? They ask if I like them. doesn't matter. I know it doesn't matter, but they don't know that. And they feel. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes, yes. And it does matter to these people that are in the worst time of their lives in some cases, you know? Andra Davidson: for on that side, matters. It doesn't matter in terms of they will zealously represent you, whether they like you or not. They will absolutely advocate for you in every way because that's their job. They don't have to like you to do their job. Well, we all want to be liked. It doesn't feel good think that your attorney doesn't like you. But that's not where your energy needs to be. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. I like that you're like, they might not like you and that's doesn't matter. Yeah. Andra Davidson: Right. We have to choose where we put our energy when we're wiped anyway, and on a normal day, let alone when we're depleted. if spending our energy trying to decide if our attorney likes us, my point is that's probably not the best place for your energy. what, what I like to remind clients is that. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes. Andra Davidson: We can set the tone that you want, You can ask any question that you want. This is your process. You're the driver. It's your life. You bring that team together because you want the best possible group of advocates for you to help you get to what you want. But a big part of what I do is help them define what they want. go into it and you just I want to get through this. Okay, we're gonna get through it How what what feels like success for you on the other side? and that doesn't mean Taking everything right that means What can you live with what feels reasonable? What kind of a that's one side of it. The other is the more ⁓ sort of optimistic visionary piece when you close your eyes and you think of your life in three years or five years. Where do you want to be? Who's around you? What are you doing? Are you traveling? Are you working? Are you doing a hobby? you in a whole new location? What is it that would light you up? And look at how we factor that in to these plans, If we know that you're ready to move on from that house that you've been in forever and go travel, you don't want to live there, okay, that can be a really important piece of information. On the other hand, if we know you do want to stay in that house for whatever reason, and that is really important to you, that's an important piece of information. no wrong answer to that. It's just helping you to prioritize so that your team can help you get to where you want to be. ⁓ Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah, you don't wanna live there. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: But if you don't know what those things are and you haven't articulated them, the team can't help you get there. So a big part of what I do is work with clients to define their goals and help them figure out do they ⁓ really want? What feels right for them out of this process so that they can get there. And that also gives people a reason to be optimistic and hopeful, right? Because ⁓ we're all sort of marching to the same tune here. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Right. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: and we're working towards something that they are excited about. that little spark being lit again is everything, right? We wanna find some reason for you to be excited. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. I'm a lot of two things. One thing is I'm thinking about a client that I've worked with that was very much in the, just want to get through it. I just need to be done. I need this person out of my life. And ⁓ wound up a plan that's not good, Like just really doesn't work for them. And so I love this idea of the end point and thinking about that. Andra Davidson: Yeah. Hmm. Dr. Karalynn Royster: And yes, you want to be done with them. You will be done in some ways. Not in a lot of ways, ⁓ but do you want that to look like when you're done? what is that going to feel like? And the other thing I thinking about is I was telling you before we started recording that, we took our kids skiing this past weekend ⁓ and, the only way down the mountain down the mountain. Like you, you get to the top. ⁓ Andra Davidson: It's a great metaphor. Yep. Yep. Dr. Karalynn Royster: You gotta do it, right? Like you're getting down there one way or another. It's really just, are you gonna do that? And how are you gonna do it in a way that feels not terrifying and not like you're just flying down a black diamond and you're not ready for that, You gotta take the turns. You gotta go slow. You gotta be strategic and plan out what you're doing, Andra Davidson: exactly, and I bet they a great sense of accomplishment, when they got down Dr. Karalynn Royster: you do something you didn't think you But you're at the base and you look up and you're like, wow, I just did that. That's incredible, Andra Davidson: Absolutely. Exactly. such a, it's a great, it's a great metaphor for what, yeah, I love it because it really is accurate, We, we go into this thinking, I'll never get through it. ⁓ Or I, I don't to be here. I can't imagine what my life will ever look like. And I say that, you know, with personal knowledge of how that feels, that is exactly how I felt. I got divorced after Dr. Karalynn Royster: I know, I just came up with it, yeah. i don't wanna be here Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: 20 years, wasn't my choice. ⁓ I was, yeah, and I think it's important to share because want people to know that if I can do it, they can do it because I am ⁓ different. ⁓ I was married for 20 years being, know, that in my family was such a huge, huge part of my identity. It meant everything to me. At the time that I got divorced, my twins were 14. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about your journey to this work. Yeah. Andra Davidson: They're now 26 and they're amazing. And they were amazing then. ⁓ really sort of described myself as a, you know, puddle on the floor for a good long time there. ⁓ And what I realized though, totally. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. You were devastated. Andra Davidson: totally devastated. I realized, thankfully, not too far ⁓ in that I did have a choice about how I handled it, ⁓ That I could ⁓ a healthy relationship with my now ex ⁓ and that we still choose that. Even though there was and sadness and hurt, all the things, We could still choose to be good co-parents to our kids or not. was a choice ⁓ we could make. And I that very much. I wanted it because I know and I know you know better than anyone as the role that you play in the world ⁓ is people to understand the impact of losing those relationships, right? Of damaging those, ⁓ especially primary relationships. I don't want my kids. I didn't want them then and I certainly don't now. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: to be any more damaged by also not having a good relationship with their dad or not feeling like they could come to me that I was strong and steady enough to handle whatever it was that they had going on. I didn't want to be so consumed ⁓ saying that was negative about their dad, which as you know, then translates to them not feeling comfortable coming to me because I'm not safe. I wanted to be the safe person. Dr. Karalynn Royster: you. Andra Davidson: I wanted to be there so they could come to me about anything, ⁓ whether it's their dad, whether it's me, whether it's something else, And ⁓ Lord I was not about this. There's ⁓ no question it. ⁓ But I very hard to prioritize their wellbeing, even though it was hard for me with that relationship with their dad, but you know what, it paid off. Dr. Karalynn Royster: you course. Andra Davidson: paid off every day since. think that my saw me model resilience and determination and strength the ability find perspective and look for something positive, in the hardest of circumstances. And there was a lot of positive. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what a gift. What a gift to give them, you know, because like you said earlier, really is the conflict that hurts kids and no one's hiding it. Parents tell me all the time, like, ⁓ they don't know that we don't get along. And I'm like, yeah, ⁓ know. ⁓ definitely know. ⁓ always know. And, ⁓ Andra Davidson: They definitely know. Yeah, they definitely know. People like to underestimate that, Because it's more convenient. They don't want to, if they, it's very hard to think about. ⁓ painful if you decide to tell yourself that they don't know and you really want to live with that, it feels better, but it's not accurate because we know how smart kids are and how perceptive they are. They're seeing this stuff. They might not be talking about it, but that doesn't mean they're not seeing it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. I your thoughts because, when I initially, and I tell my members this, but when I initially started down this path of coaching and I still feel very passionate about collaborative co-parenting and how beautiful that is and how much it benefits kids, the folks that I find that come to me and need my ⁓ often desperately want that. but are co-parenting with someone that will not do that or cannot that. I don't know which way to even say it. And so I'm curious your thoughts on coaching and how you support people when ⁓ it seems maybe parallel parenting is the better option. And keep in mind, both of us know these are the exceptions. a lot of parents, I should say. can settle and can get there and can do collaborative co-parenting over time. But there is a very small percentage that are what we call high conflict, which we kind of don't love that term because usually it's one person that's in high conflict. ⁓ But I'm just really curious your thoughts on like when you might support or coach somebody to give a little more space ⁓ or do more of a parallel. Andra Davidson: That's true. Yes, very true. I think that's a great point. No one situation works for everyone, one of the parts of this, and I bet you deal with this all the time, is realizing that you can't make that co-parent do anything, ⁓ You cannot force to be the person that you would like them to be or the parent you'd like them to be. ⁓ there are times when very best thing that you can do is be the the parent, the environment that is healthy, safe for your kid, and know that that is the best you can do. And you show up with integrity and boundaries, and are clear about that, but you can't necessarily solve for what the other person is doing. And if that means that you parallel parent without having to engage, because that would create more conflict and hence more damage, Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. Andra Davidson: I'll take that trade any day. ⁓ You know, I always recommend to my clients that you take care of your own world first ⁓ and you don't do any of these things that we're talking about. Take the high road, be whatever, because your ex deserves anything. It's not about what they deserve or don't deserve or what you want or Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: don't want to do for them. It's about how you feel about yourself. You do those things, You show up the way you want to because you will look back on this time and say, I showed up the best I could during this time for myself and my kids. I the best I could at this time. I was intentional. I was thoughtful. I offered the high road. If the other parent didn't take it, there's not, that's on them. I can't do that. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Hmm. I can't do that. I can't, I don't control them. Yeah. I mean, that's so beautiful. This, I just love how you so, you just nailed it, Like you do it for you. You do it because it's what is right and good and true and authentic for you as in that situation. Andra Davidson: Not at all. Yeah, that's what truly made the difference for me personally. Because when I found that as my motivator, I'm doing this because this is who I want to be for my kids and myself on the other side of this. and not because he did or didn't deserve anything. It didn't matter at that point, right? What, what mattered was that I wanted to look back and say, I did the best I could. ⁓ awareness shift for me was what Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: what made the difference. It brought me a lot of peace. And that's what I want for people, right? Otherwise we're chasing, feel like this unachievable thing of making somebody different. It's never happen. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. if it would have, if you might still be partnered, if you were gonna, if that was gonna change them, you know, and it's definitely harder. Yeah. And the other thing that I, that I remind people is you can always move out of parallel parenting. If after the dust settles and the hurt and the healing has, if you're in a better place, you can be more collaborative. You can be more friendly. You can. Andra Davidson: Right, exactly. You couldn't change it then. Small fans are going to do it now, right? Yeah. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Dare I say have a friendship, you know? Like, you can always pivot. You can always pivot. Andra Davidson: Absolutely. There are, you can always pivot. It's easier to loosen boundaries than to tighten them, So start off, you know, with some stronger things in place, especially as you transition out of a marriage and into a, you know, co-parenting, parallel parenting situation. That's the hardest time, right? That transition, when you're in the thick of the redefinition of what is gonna, Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes. the truth? Andra Davidson: the future gonna look like, who am I gonna be, are they gonna be doing? ⁓ that newness is so hard. Give yourself some space to get through that before you commit to, or not commit is the wrong word, before you say else happen, Like give yourself ⁓ the gift of transitional time knowing things could change to your point. This year might need to be parallel parenting. Three years, two years, five down the road, you might be in a much different position. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I hope you are, But ⁓ you said, I love that you said about, you know, ⁓ so much easier to loosen a boundary than to tighten it, Andra, I would really love if you could share ⁓ what you see of the differences between, you know, I think you and I share that we recommend people work with a therapist as well. ⁓ We love therapy. Therapy is great. Andra Davidson: Exactly. ⁓ I so hope you are. Yeah. ⁓ for sure. Dr. Karalynn Royster: How do you frame and how do you think about the difference between your work as a divorce coach and the work of a therapist on the team? And even you might add in the attorney if that feels, Andra Davidson: Yeah. Yeah, think it's actually great for people to see what the differences are. ⁓ an attorney, this is ⁓ the sort easiest is, you know, they're to handle the legal dissolution of the marriage, They are going to handle the logistics, the ⁓ paperwork and the It's very important that they approach it in a way that meets your specific needs. they're same way. There are lots of different therapists, lots of different kinds of Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andra Davidson: you know, ⁓ doctors, whatever it is, there are lots of different attorneys and they approach this process differently. So it matters to talk to different people and see who's a fit for you, depending on what you want, That matters. ⁓ the attorneys play that really critical role. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. Andra Davidson: Therapists play an equally critical role, which is to help you understand big picture in a lot of cases What what happened here that didn't work? Why maybe did I choose this person who ⁓ I'm seeing might or might not have been the best choice for me? ⁓ Look, I'm about blame I'd say that because it will help you make different choices if that's what you want going forward not because like there's a ⁓ you shouldn't have or Dr. Karalynn Royster: Brilliant. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: whatever, fully believe we do the best we can with what we have at the time. ⁓ that was something that I came to a lot of peace with for myself. And I ⁓ it. And I think that in therapy, you're looking at patterns and history and other relationships that are of significance ⁓ and choices potentially diagnoses and potentially ⁓ medication, all of that. Dr. Karalynn Royster: True. Yep. Yeah. Andra Davidson: is in the therapy realm. That is not something that I'm going to do as a divorce coach. ⁓ No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. No, it is not appropriate. I am not a lawyer or a therapist. Dr. Karalynn Royster: nor should we in that role. It's not appropriate. We can, and we can, we can see things, I can say gosh, I, you were really triggered by that. But as a coach, I'm not going into why you were triggered. I'm having you bring that to your therapist, Or, or even with your attorney, you know, I can say like, gosh, yeah, like you didn't, Andra Davidson: Right. Exactly. And talk about maybe, yeah, talk about how to respond. Dr. Karalynn Royster: you feel like they didn't listen to you here. Okay, let's talk about how to frame your question better. Yeah. Andra Davidson: Yeah. So exactly. that's exactly right. And that's coaching. you know, divorce coaching then I think plays a critical role in that in-between space, ⁓ say that ⁓ of the hardest moments of divorce don't happen in your attorney's office and they don't happen in your therapist's office. They happen in the day-to-day in the moment when you are doing a drop-off. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yeah, in the car. Yeah, crying in the car. Uh-huh. Andra Davidson: when you got an email that triggered you, when you're in the car, when your kid tells you something, you know, all these things, right, they come up. Those are the moments where divorce can really take you to your knees. And a divorce coach is there in the thick of that middle time. ⁓ work with my clients sometimes several times a day, definitely a couple of times a week. ⁓ We're we're emailing. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes. Andra Davidson: We're having phone calls. We're sometimes meeting in person. I can go with them to their attorney's meetings to help them gather their information. I help them get organized. Communication is a big thing. We work a lot on communication. How do you respond? How do you not respond ⁓ different things? ⁓ the truth is that if you're paying your attorney to do some of that, you're paying too much, Dr. Karalynn Royster: Ugh. Andra Davidson: That is not their highest and best use. And most of them will tell you that. They'll say, I'm overpaid and underqualified for that particular aspect of the job. It's, and what that leads to oftentimes is frustration on both ends because the client feels frustrated. ⁓ my gosh, these bills are gigantic and I'm going to spend a fortune doing it this way. The attorney feels like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm not. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yep. Yes. Andra Davidson: giving them the value they need because I'm spending all my time on these little, these ⁓ conflicts that Yes. And yes, sure. All the communication can go through your attorney at what cost, financial and otherwise. ⁓ So ⁓ having a divorce allows you to use each member your Dr. Karalynn Royster: These little emails and yes. Right? Yeah. Andra Davidson: for their best use, And allows you to be very, very intentional about how you address these conflicts in ways that last long beyond the divorce in most cases, right? Learning how to communicate productively, support your kids, manage your own, ⁓ yes, exactly, own regulation, your own boundaries will last you. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Hold your boundaries. Andra Davidson: many, many years beyond divorce. That's if you haven't already learned it and many of us haven't for all kinds of good reasons. This can be a really beautiful time to say, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to figure out some of these things and take it into this next phase of my life in a way that I'll feel good about ⁓ I don't necessarily want to repeat the same patterns. And the risk of ⁓ doing it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: is going back into some of those things because they're what we know and it's very much human nature. Dr. Karalynn Royster: And familiar is attractive, Well, I see the benefit of having a divorced coach is they know the case, they know you intimately. You don't have to catch Andra up the 10 text messages that made you upset about this issue because you already know them, And so when I bring it to you and I'm like, ⁓ we're still going back forth about whether or not they can do camp this summer. Andra Davidson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Karalynn Royster: You know, you know the issue and you already know like, ⁓ this is a trouble spot for you. And I know why it's a trouble spot. And so let's go back. Like, I hear you, I see you. Here's the plan. And I hear that a lot from clients. It's like, it's just nice that somebody, I don't have to re-explain everything. ⁓ It's tiring. And a of people don't get it. Andra Davidson: Yes, it is because it's tiring to do that all the time. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Just your casual friendships or your mom or whoever it might be doesn't get it in the same way that someone that is in the field and knows this. Andra Davidson: And think that's a really great point, Karalynn, that I think people should take a second to think about, which is that, you know, we all need our support systems, our family, our friends. That's an integral part of this process too. But everybody also brings their own divorce baggage to situations. And sometimes advice can be not appropriate for situation. It might inflame it. might just not be the right answer for you and your people are team you. I mean, I always like to say that, They're trying to be loyal and supportive of you. I'm certain their heart is in the right place. But the reality is that that advice may or may not be what is the best in your situation for you. And there is a point of overburdening those friends and family with what's happening and getting support that is professional, that is trained, that knows how to help you walk through a system that is not intuitive get you, and very broken, so broken, will give you the best opportunity to preserve and build those family relationships because you, they won't, you're not pressure testing them, right, with, ⁓ more than they can handle. it does Dr. Karalynn Royster: And very broken. Yeah. No, Andra Davidson: that you have that kind of support. mean, honestly, my goal is that everybody would realize that who's going through divorce, that getting the emotional support they need is as important as any other part of the process. And they don't realize that right now. And I understand why it's easy to put it at the bottom of the list because it's expensive and it's overwhelming. But when you do it right, it actually can save you money. ⁓ And Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yes, it saves a lot of money and a lot of stress. Andra Davidson: Yeah, short term and long term, because hopefully you can like to your point, if you put your time in about the client that you said before, right, if she just wanted to get it done and she created this parenting plan that didn't serve her, she's going back to have to fix that. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, that's where we're at now. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's horrible. It's horrible. Andra Davidson: So the insurance are going to be paid again and again. Meanwhile, if you get somebody involved, one of the things I do is parenting plans, I help them draft it, not the legal document. I help them draft the bullet points. We go through the holidays. We talk about the things that really matter to them. ⁓ get into the weeds about, ⁓ know, well, what's going to happen when this occurs or that occurs? Let's think through it. We go way beyond the template, Dr. Karalynn Royster: Hmm? Andra Davidson: and we really put together something that addresses those issues. So hopefully it will stand the test of time better than it would without that effort. You don't know, I mean, something might happen. It's not going to be perfect, but at least give yourself the best shot possible. And by putting that effort in, in the beginning, you give yourself the better chance of it being something you can live with. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. When do you like to start working with your clients? Like when would someone call you? Ideally. I mean, I they can call you at any point, but. Andra Davidson: Yeah, they can. So I've actually had great success with people calling me even before they've told their spouse. And the reason that that can be so successful is because we get so intentional about the messages that they send. one of things, you know, if you're going to tell your spouse you want a divorce, obviously, they may not be in the same place you are about it. They might be, and maybe they'll say, okay, yeah, I saw this coming, that's okay. Right. On the other hand, you might have a situation like I was where I'm like, I don't want this. And then, you know, he's in one place, I'm in another place. There's a lot of room in between there for, ⁓ for, ⁓ and hurt. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah, I've been thinking it too. ⁓ hurt and yep. Andra Davidson: Sometimes people call me even before so that we can say, okay, what do you think their biggest triggers are gonna be? Their biggest worries, their biggest stresses. How can you do this kindly and respectfully to manage that so that it goes as smooth as possible? ⁓ So that's one option. Most people call me one the other of them have ⁓ filed. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Andra Davidson: Right. ⁓ Or have retained a lawyer. They may not have actually filed the paperwork, but have retained a lawyer. Sometimes, a lot of times the lawyers are the ones who they call and they reach out after they've hired their attorney or maybe after they've had the initial conversation with their spouse and they don't quite what to do next. And so they reach out and say, I don't know what to do next. ⁓ you know, sometimes they'll can you help me build my team? Dr. Karalynn Royster: You know. Andra Davidson: I'll give them lawyer recommendations, therapy recommendations, that kind of thing. Sometimes they say, you know, I have my lawyer, I'd like to bring you into the ⁓ process. usually pretty early on when call me, but I do also work with some people who are post-decree. So ⁓ that means, know, for those of you that don't know, that means that you are post-divorce and there are maybe issues. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: ⁓ something that needs to be changed, you can't communicate well, and we want to figure out how to manage that. So sometimes I jump in there, a lot of times it's in the beginning. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I should clarify for our listeners, know, Andra and I definitely move in some of the same spaces and do some capacity in each other's domains, certainly. My focuses a lot more on like protecting kids and moving kids through high conflict divorce. And I think about Andra and I refer to Andra often for kind of more of that all encompassing moving through the process and. I need help with the financials and talking to my lawyer and kind of the bigger, broader divorce coaching. there is, ⁓ there's certainly overlap and sometimes she refers to me with my other hat, which is as a psychologist to work with the kids. ⁓ Andra Davidson: Absolutely. I I always, so important. I I really want my clients to recognize that giving their kids the support that they need, independent of their parents, you know, with someone like you ⁓ ⁓ a gift to give to your kids. Give them an outlet that's healthy, that supports them, that encourages them and sees them, gives them the space to communicate what's going on in, you know, a really Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: open and supportive environment. And that's a real gift if you can do that for your kids. So yeah, I think I'm glad you mentioned that because I love sending people to you to do that, to give their kids that, just that that gift. really is a gift. I know I've said that, but I feel that way. It's really important. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think coaches are a lot like therapists are a lot like attorneys, right? It's a little bit like dating. You you need to find somebody if that's not too triggering for our divorce clients, but ⁓ you really need to find someone that you trust, that you can talk to, that you can be honest and authentic. Andra Davidson: It is. Right, right. Dr. Karalynn Royster: and you should be discerning, you know? Andra Davidson: think one of the, ⁓ so much though, sorry to interrupt you. I was just going to say that, you know, that's absolutely true. I always tell people I might not be your coach. That's okay. There's other great coaches out there. A colleague of mine here in Colorado, also we send stuff back and forth because we know we're, ⁓ know, not ⁓ one of us perfect for everybody, right? So as coaches, we do that. I think one of the most, Dr. Karalynn Royster: No, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Andra Davidson: sort of underappreciated parts of coaching is for people to realize that, you know, smart, capable, accomplished, successful, whatever that means to you, adults in all other aspects of their life find themselves just on the ground from divorce in a way that other problems don't tend to do. ⁓ Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andra Davidson: those people who are out there killing it in the world normally and pushing through and know how to do that, find themselves with brain fog and overwhelm and they're not able to sleep and the stress is distracting from their ability to show up and do their job well or to parent well or both. And they're so confused, like this is not who I am, right? I do life pretty well. I show up, I know how to get through this stuff. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Andra Davidson: And in this situation, I find myself just on my knees. Why is, what is happening? And is something I see ⁓ the time, these high functioning, highly capable, amazing adults ⁓ are over the place when it comes to divorce and just unable to focus and be productive. And they don't know how to wrangle that back in. ⁓ And that as a starting point, Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andra Davidson: If that is how you feel, think it's just so important for people to know they're not alone and they're not crazy. is so normal. That is what happens. Dr. Karalynn Royster: what I hear over and over about the membership is it's just so nice to know I'm not alone, which I didn't expect that to be the big takeaway, ⁓ but it is because you you hop on Facebook these single and divorced family groups are 20,000 deep. You know, it's like, you're obviously not alone, but it doesn't feel that way in the thick of it. Andra Davidson: Mmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? Right. Dr. Karalynn Royster: And so finding your support, finding your community, we both know Dr. Hick, Dr. Hick was on here and we talked about her therapy group. Like there's so much available and your job is to just take the step and say yes and accept the help that is out here, you know? Andra Davidson: Yeah. Yes, and that's exactly right. You don't know, I often say you don't have to know how to do it, just that you want to. And then if you can reach that first step, then we'll help you take it from there. ⁓ So, you know, relieve yourself of that burden of the pressure that you have to have all the answers you don't just to ask for the support is amazing. And I hope that people give themselves permission to do that without feeling like that's less than in any way. It just isn't. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah. I often tell parents, know, good parents know when to bring in more people on the team, right? I don't know everything about how to raise my kids. I certainly don't want to look in their ears and check their eyes. And I don't have any guilt about bringing in the dentist or going to the doctor, There's a lot of things I don't know. Good parents know when you need extra support, And we find it. Yeah. Andra Davidson: That's right. Right. Right. Right. way to put it. I love that. That's a great way to think of it. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Well, this has been such a lovely conversation, Andra. I'm so grateful for and your work. I'm curious, where can folks find you? How do they connect with you if they are? And we will link a lot of good links in the show notes, y'all, but I'd just love to hear what ⁓ would be good way to get in touch with you or where can we find you? Andra Davidson: Sure, absolutely. Well, probably the easiest is my website. ⁓ It's better than before divorce.com. and there a link right there to book a call with me. I always do a free consult call, you know, to your point, Karalynn, it is ⁓ a fit, it is about fit, it about comfort level. ⁓ And ⁓ I'm always happy to talk to you. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Andra Davidson: anybody about what's going on for them. Is this a good fit? You know, would this be appropriate? And see how I might be able to help. I would be honored. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Yeah, I love that. And again, we'll put contact information in that website below. But I thank you so much for your time and all the hard work you're doing in our community. It really is a gift. Andra Davidson: Well, same to you. I, and I feel the same way about knowing you and what you're offering to people. And I really appreciate you having me. Thank you so much. Dr. Karalynn Royster: Thank you.