Elizabeth Townsend: Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man and Eliza Drinks Beer over on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. That's it from me this week, thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe on your chosen podcast platform for a brand new episode every Wednesday morning. This week's topic is portfolio careers and life beyond beer. I'm joined by Jonny Hamilton and Craig Thomas, who both completed the prestigious Heriot Watt Master of Science in Brewing and Distilling before undertaking careers on opposite sides of the Atlantic after meeting in Edinburgh during the early days of the craft beer revolution. Craig Thomas began his brewing career in Edinburgh before joining Cara Technology, a leading sensory consultancy company and manufacturer of Aroxa flavour standards.

Jonny Hamilton: originally ⁓ chemistry here ⁓ at University of Edinburgh. and had this very particular that I would do every Friday back from ⁓ King's Buildings, which is where they have the chemistry and science departments. ⁓ And yeah, basically labs would finish Friday at ⁓

Elizabeth Townsend: where he provided technical support and taster training services to companies around the globe. In 2017 he moved to California to brew at Firestone Walker Brewing Company, eventually moving into the Quality Lab to manage the brewery's sensory program. Craig now works at Abstrax Hops, having joined the company in 2023. Jonny Hamilton previously held roles as head brewer at Newbarns Brewery in Leith, Scotland and at Beavertown's Tempest Project. He's co-founder of Pellicle Magazine, a DJ, radio host and runs events around Edinburgh.

Jonny Hamilton: five PM and but by the time I would get back to Halls, all my friends who kind of did less intense degrees, ⁓ had already kind of started drinking and kind of were just sitting around chilling, whereas I'd kind of be having to do basically a nine to five job and ⁓ would stop at this same off license every Friday and I think just got in this habit of like, Okay, I've never really tried anything other than your kind of traditional beers, so let's try something new and then

Elizabeth Townsend: under various guises while working as production manager at Jorum Studios. Let's take a listen.

Jonny Hamilton: I'd get a four pack and kind of would try that and then as time went on kind of ⁓ would get a bit more adventurous. It also really just happened to be at the same time that brewdog was happening in Scotland. I think if that hadn't happened, it would have been a very different story, as much as, you know, they have their their negative sides. ⁓ I don't think it would have been the same career if I hadn't. But yeah, I think kind of tried your ⁓ Continental laggers and then tried like a Brahma or a Sol and then kind of saw like a ⁓ brew dog trashy blonde and yeah, then I started keeping a little notebook of all the beers I had tried and kind of them just like a kind of proto Rate beer or like untapped but just for my own ⁓ enjoyment. And then pretty after that, I think it was ⁓ the year after started homebrewing for the first time. And then slash university just got serious for the next few years and I could have just kind of put it on pause.

Craig: Yeah, it's it's hard for me to pinpoint. It it's probably a confluence of stuff. I grew up in Colorado and ⁓ from as early as I can remember, my parents were talking about ⁓ New Belgium and Odell and we would sometimes go on trips to to Fort Collins just to go to a brew pub called ⁓ Coopersmith's where I would get like cream soda. Me and my sister would get growl growlers of cream soda while my parents would get beers. So it was always kinda like a part. of growing up just, you know, at that time it was the micro brewing movement, right? It wasn't craft brewing. But I I never really had a lot of exposure to it until I also went to University of Edinburgh, same years as Jonny, but we didn't we didn't really cross circles until our time at ⁓ Harriet Watts. And I think probably one of the most like poignant memories I have where I you know one of those light bulb things where I started to think of beer and drinks in in kind of a different light was in 2010 when my parents came over and we went on a a trip up to Orkney and it was a rainy day and we visited the Highland Park distillery just as something to do. And I remember touring that facility and I was just hit by like all these wonderful aromatics of obviously a lot of ethanol but cast maturing and all the vanilla and caramel notes you get into it. And it was you know it was like seeing almost another world and I kind of wanted to learn more about that. And so even though I was in school for history for the next two years or so, I was just dabbling in learning about whiskey and what made it kind of unique and and ⁓ and something that I really enjoyed, you know, not least the sensory aspects, but, you know, British pub life was it it it became pretty central to what I really enjoyed about my uni experience and and just experiencing and socializing. And so, you know, I came out of that and I just I wanted to be a whiskey blender out of it. And ⁓ we can talk about how how that evolved over the the course of the years. But I think that was my biggest kind of driver for getting into the drinks business was, you know, two thousand ten to two thousand twelve and just smelling things and learning about ⁓

Elizabeth: did you both have aspirations to be brewers or distillers at that point? ⁓ did you see the Heriot-Watt degree as a kind a stepping stone to something else?

Jonny Hamilton: for me the ⁓ thing was ⁓ so was studying a master's in chemistry with industrial experience. ⁓ And at that point think just the way in which you know the education system works in the UK was and the school I went to, ⁓ I ⁓ I decided do and you know, the only c ⁓ kind of big jobs you could think of were ⁓ either the oil or petrochemical or or pharmaceuticals. So I was kind of going down that route of ⁓ gonna do pharmaceuticals and synthetic chemistry. And I did a year at ⁓ a very large ⁓ pharmaceutical ⁓ corporation down in England as part of my course. And I think discovered pretty much on week one that it wasn't for me. ⁓ so I I I spent a lot of that year on my lab computer, just skiving. I mean, I was still doing the work 'cause but it was so boring and like I just couldn't get into it. ⁓ I think ⁓ you know, there was a basically a year of just keep trying and failing at making trying to make something that may or may not go down and ⁓ be useful one day. And then you've got all the moral dilemma of working for big pharma. with it and ⁓ yeah, basically just spent all my time ⁓ on like Good Beer Hunting and ⁓ other at the time it was like very personal ⁓ blogs. So like, you know, Matt Curtis's blog, which I then ended up working with Matt years later and people like Mark Dredge and all these kind of older ⁓ like two thousand tens ⁓ kind of bloggers and would just be sitting reading about that and then kind of re ⁓ bought some homebrew stuff and started again. I think I hadn't homebrewed in like three years and ⁓ started doing it and then realized that ⁓ there was this course back in Edinburgh. And whenever I went back to my final year of chemistry, we had a careers day and I stuck my hand up and asked the person is brewing like a legitimate use of my chemistry degree because at this point I was about to enter year five and obviously I'd spent a lot of time and money and ⁓ hours in the library studying this thing that I was now no longer that fussed on and just wanted to some validation that I wasn't wasting my ⁓ my life. And ⁓ thankfully the the careers advisor person was very kind and it immediately was just like, yeah, 100% like that's

Craig: Yeah.

Jonny Hamilton: An absolutely great appliable use of chemistry and the skills you've learned. So yeah, thankfully I had the combination of like that was pretty lucky in a way. It didn't feel like it at the time, but that ⁓ the fact I had the the year's placement as kind of a practice to see what my life would be like, quickly learned that it wasn't for me, then learned that. Whenever I go back to Edinburgh, there's one of the few courses in the world that's specifically about the thing that I'm interested in. And then having the careers person be like, No, that's legit. And I was like, Okay, cool. So I immediately just went and applied. And ⁓ yeah, the final year of chemistry was tough. I think I'd already wanted just to start the brewing thing, but I figured after four years I'd might as well finish and see it through. And then yeah, I just went straight. into into that next degree whenever yeah, ⁓ me met Craig.

Craig: ⁓ so I graduated or my final year ⁓ you know in ⁓ studying history at University of Edinburgh, was kind of similar. I'd I wanted to get into whiskey. I wanted to, you know, work at a distillery, but ⁓ I was challenged with that, ⁓ not least because ⁓ distilleries don't want to hire someone with a history degree, right? But also being an American, I I was over on a student visa and ⁓ there was a a change in ⁓ some of the immigration laws around that time. So it went from I think I when I was going into it, I was excited at the prospect of being able to hang around in the UK for another year or two after I graduated. ⁓ but then that changed and basically once my student visa expired, it was like, Well, get out. So I was in the in this really ⁓ stressful situation where I was trying to find my way into the distilling industry while also just trying to get any kind of job that would sponsor me as a visa. And ⁓ yeah, that that was a struggle. I didn't quite manage it. And ⁓ as a result of that, once I realized that I was gonna have to go ⁓ back home, back to the US, it was kind of like ⁓ the it was two things. One, I I realized there was a a degree in brewing and distilling. I knew that I could work my way up in the brewing industry or distilling industry back in America, but I wanted to be in the UK. And the ⁓ yeah, the the fact that I could get back over and and study brewing and and get the experience that I felt I needed to really get into it was a big driving factor. As part of the kind of transition, summer of twenty twenty twelve ⁓ once I kind of realized that I was I was gonna go down the brewing path hell or high water, I just started sending out applications, you know, please to anyone ⁓ locally to Edinburgh to kind of like teach me a little bit about brewing, ⁓ with the idea that I needed I had a history degree going into a pretty technical masters, which I hadn't even been accepted for yet. So I needed to get some kind of experience and ⁓ very luckily Andrew Barnett or Barney of Barney's beer said, Yeah, I'll take you on for a couple days a week. ⁓ show you the ropes. So that was kind of ⁓ my first exposure into beer and beer production outside of just, you know, drinking it and reading about it. ⁓ kind of the the entry point I would say between the decision between ⁓ down the the whiskey route and going down the beer route. ⁓ Which I hadn't fully I still haven't fully decided, honestly. I still like whiskey quite a bit. But I do remember a pretty ⁓ I I overthink things and I remember cycling home one night at Harriet Watt and it was right when we had to kind of apply for our dissertation projects, ⁓ or at least apply for the natural selection program, which both Jonny and I were on in the same year, and ⁓ I was I was trying to decide whether I was gonna go for that program or focus on on whiskey distilling. And as I as I saw it, it was like a fork in the road. Like, pick your career path, Craig. You're either going beer or you're going whiskey. And I decided to go beer at that point. and it was a great decision. ⁓ yeah, I've ⁓ I've a lot of tales from that, but ⁓ but regardless, I I think to your point, Elizabeth, like I I got in for whiskey, but they're so intertwined and my specific interests around s around flavor and aroma and sensory in general, it just kinda transcends all of it that ⁓ at some point I realized that I didn't need to pigeonhole myself and I could I could learn other things and and develop skills that weren't necessarily specific to a a you know, one role, but had applications wherever.

Elizabeth: So just to kind of fill in the timeline a little bit, Craig, so you were working with Barneys up in Edinburgh. How did you then find your way back to the United States?

Craig: Yeah, so I I worked with Barney for a bit and then ⁓ with a brewery up in St. Andrews, which ⁓ was where my partner, ⁓ her family was from, ⁓ for that summer of twenty twelve. And then my visa expired October thirty-first of twenty twelve. So I moved back home ⁓ for a bit. ⁓ I think at that point I had I knew that I was accepted to Harriet Watts, or it was right around that time. So I knew I was coming back. ⁓ and so I ⁓ yeah, in an effort to just learn about ⁓ about beverage and making making beer. ⁓ I spent the up until September of twenty thirteen just I worked in a a bottle shop selling beer and wine and spirits, ⁓ and then homebrewed every every free moment that I had, I was homebrewing. ⁓ and then yeah, came back to the UK in twenty thirteen. And did my degree and stayed in the UK until twenty seventeen, which is when I moved back to the States again and now I live in California.

Elizabeth: when we were thinking starting a brewery, one of the things we worried about quite a lot was the fact that it seemed like you had to do this ⁓ magical, Harriet Watt master's degree in and distilling in order to even have a shot at running a professional business, a professional brewery. How valid do you think that is? What kind of training does that course give you? And actually when you go out into the real world and you start to brew and you start to be a production brewer, how much of that learning actually applies and how much of it is just kind of on the job training that you need to kind of just muddle through.

Jonny Hamilton: I I I I have a ⁓ ⁓ funny relationship with this because whenever I studied chemistry, ⁓ you know, I was like one of the first people in my my family to go to university and I worked really, really hard and I, you know, was like giving it everything and ⁓ had convinced myself this is the job for me and this is the career. And ⁓ you know, whenever I started at Harriet Watt, I remember feeling pretty annoyed because I I I'd been surrounded for years with like of people who only cared about chemistry and really, really cared about chemistry. And the first week of Harriet Watt realizing that talking to people was like, ⁓ you studied art history. Okay. Cause the way the course was laid out was it kind of implied that you needed ⁓ a bachelor's or a master's in bio biology chemistry or a I think they described it as or similar course. So I was a bit confused as to why there were so many people who didn't have this degree, and I was a bit like of a snob about it. And then now when I look back at it, I'm completely realize how wrong that was. I mean, I realised that by the end of the year, by the first next few weeks, because some of the best brewers I've ever met ⁓ from that course, or aside from that course, don't have scientific backgrounds. ⁓ like, you know, our mutual friends Cosmo, who we studied with, he's from Edinburgh. ⁓ I ended up w going to work for him or under him at Beavertown eventually in London. And you know, he I'm pretty sure studied art or and he's good at language, but it don't think he had any real experience of, you know, having worked in a lab or even the physicality of it. Like, you know, I think It's a it's a it was a it's still quite a daunting thing because I know one of the brewing books they they give you or like one of the kind of classic reading pieces, the first kind of few lines talk about how brewing is both an art and a science. And it's always been a you know, people kind of debate that and I think for a long, long time I never really considered myself a creative person because I was a scientist. And I think when you work in something like chemistry. I mean it is creative, but it's kind of creative within a very tight set of rules. And I think that kind of works for Brewing. But I think it is funny because there is there is that perception, certainly at the time, and it was a very heavily ⁓ subscribed course. I think we were like the kind of few years whenever Craig and I did the course, what was 2013, maybe three years, two or three years before that course, they had like half the number of people in the class. And you know, by the time we did it, it was huge and a lot more international students. But I think, yeah, it became pretty apparent that you can have a business degree and be as v as valid to be there as someone with a chemistry degree or a physics degree or and especially if you're opening a brewery, I mean, you can have all the chemistry knowledge in the world and, you know, biochemistry and be good at yeast management and understand on a cellul cellular level how things work. But that doesn't teach you how to fix a pump, or it doesn't teach you how to pay bills, doesn't tell you how to get bank loans, you know. So there's a huge variety of people in that year who kind of thankfully taught me that a a a brewery full of only chemists or scientists would be an incredibly useless place. So yeah, no, I think ⁓ Definitely takes all people.

Craig: like going the the year before the course, I I would like wake up and spend an hour and a half just reading chemistry textbooks because I was so daunted at the prospect of going in with you know a degree without or for that degree without, you know, without a ⁓ chemistry or science degree. I I was really trying to buff up on that. And I spent so much time. Even at the time, there wasn't nearly as much education, you know, ⁓ the free education that there was. I remember just listening to the brewing network ⁓ for hours a day. And so going into the brewing degree, I I I wasn't sure that I could keep up. And then I got there and I realized that I already knew half of what they were teaching. at some level. And ⁓ and so that was a surprise to me. But I think it goes to Jonny's point is like the the chemistry, it's there. It's been around for well, since the dawn of time and we've known about it for ⁓ hundreds of years. And it's nothing kind of like mind blowing or crazy. You get some principles and you run with them. And there is a lot to be said about, you know, the whys. They really teach you a lot about the whys behind ⁓ behind you know, brewing, but the hows they they I don't think I learned a lot about how to go about brewing in any kind of professional context. It was like, yeah, this is how you should do it. But then to Jonny's point, it's like, well, yeah, but how does that hold up when my lauter gets stuck? Or how does it hold up when ⁓ you know the the ⁓ attach the wrong tank to a packaging run? It's like, no, no ⁓ didn't train you for any of those, which are probably the mo most important parts of running a brewery is just the operations of it and fixing problems as they happen. So I think that there's there's definitely room for all of it. You need to know brewing process. You need to know theories around water chemistry and you need to know why yeast runs the way it does, because how else are you going to troubleshoot problems when they come up? But ⁓ equally I've learned so much about the value of just getting in getting your boots dirty and actually doing it, that ⁓ it's it set me up very well, ⁓ the degree. I think that it was the right choice for me. It certainly created an awesome network. We had some amazing c classmates that obviously we're still friends with and ping ideas off of because it's just the the power of, you know, the the big brain that that ⁓ you know the collaborative consciousness that we had. So the networking aspect was one of the most valuable parts to me. But I would I would say that, you know, the I think the Harriet Watt degree was seen in a light by some of my employers and gave me a bit of a leg up in certain scenarios. But as a requirement, especially for, you know, going and starting your own brewery or or ⁓ even in a lot of brewing jobs, it's not. ⁓ but it does it does show to people that you're serious about it. ⁓ I would say. And ⁓ yeah, I I wouldn't change it for the world. It was an awesome degree. I did learn a lot and that's the beautiful thing about life is you learn a about a lot of things that you never knew were worth learning. ⁓ and I think that, you know, the degree was part of that too.

Elizabeth: Sounds like a really fantastic for kind of where you went next. So Jonny, we've already kind of touched on this. You co-founded Pellicle Magazine in 2019 with Matthew Curtis. What were your motivations behind starting that publication? Like at what point in your career ⁓ you thinking people need to have great beer writing?

Jonny Hamilton: ⁓ I f I think like most ⁓ of looking back ⁓ my kind of career, I think I have a a tendency to whatever things you can pretty much tell in my job whenever I'm unsatisfied because I'll start finding more and more kind of extracurricular things to do. And ⁓ yeah, that was at a point post-Heineken kind of sale at Beavertown. And, you know, by this point, despite, you know, earlier saying that I didn't consider myself a very creative person, and was very much, you know, in the scientific brain for a long period. Once I started home brewing and kind of brewing, I kind of got ⁓ it was clear ⁓ my first brewing role was at ⁓ a brew pub in Edinburgh called the Hanging Bat. So it was 50 liter brew kit and you know, I'd brew all the time and the beer would be gone. So I got to make whatever I wanted. You know, it was such a small scale and it didn't prepare me very well for industrial brewing. And by the time I got to Beavertown, it was still a n a new learning challenge of, you know, brewing, you know, 10, 100 times the size batches or But yeah, even then after about a year at Beavertown was put in charge of the their kind of mixed fermentation barrel project and again was kind of more in charge of special ops and ⁓ anytime there was collaboration brews, it was kind of not my job. ⁓ part partially my job. Myself and Cosmo were quite ⁓ involved alongside Logan and the the breweries we were collaborating with to do interesting beers and kind of constantly be chasing new ⁓ concepts, you know, ⁓ and a post Heineken, ⁓ a lot of that kind of ⁓ interest in the beers I was making or ⁓ the collaborations kind of dried up, you know. So from having a few really good years of, you know, having every brewery in the world wanting to brew with Beavertown and, you know, having this unlimited funds where I could go to the accountants and be like, I would like an emphora for this this collab. ⁓ and I would like all these special barrels and a fooder, please, and a new bottling line. And I'd pretty much get it because they wanted to do it. and whenever that kind of died up, I think I was pretty creatively stifled and ⁓ was already thinking about leaving the brewery and was about to do this big trip to ⁓ California and Denver and Utah and I was gonna visit loads and loads of breweries and I was ⁓ gonna take my camera and just take and I was kind of originally just gonna make a little photo zine for my own enjoyment because I've always but at this point was like really into different magazines like Noble Rot and you know, things like that. And the night before I flew away I I bumped into Matt at a pub that ⁓ was around the corner at Beavertown. ⁓ sadly, yeah, I think it closed a few years later. And kind of joked to him that I was gonna I was like kind of ranting about how why is no one making this kind of not high-end, because I don't think of pellicle as being a high-end thing, but can more considered like a UK good beer hunting or like a noble rot or like and more specifically about like the people behind it. I think that was also a huge thing of like at Beavertown or in brewing at that period, there was this kind of cult of personality that I thought was weird where a lot of the time the owners of companies would get a lot of the attention and I think as someone who was working d day to day on production and like a lot of the time having ⁓ no kind of no one on the floor be it you know the packaging team or you know the sales team or anyone really being mentioned I kind of wanted to give everyone their their due. So yeah, that's kind of how it came about. And yeah, no really no longer really involved with Pellicle, but ⁓ you know, stoked that it's doing so well and hopefully will be around for a long time to come.

Elizabeth: So Craig, 2017 you moved back to the United States. What was next for you? Can you tell me a bit about what you do now? You work at Abstrax Tech.

Craig: Yeah. I ⁓ when I came out brewing school, I joined a company called Cara Technology, ⁓ which ⁓ specialized in ⁓ sensory ⁓ it actually had a lot of within that company. There were some ⁓ they provided yeast, brewing yeast to a lot of people, but I I've ⁓ I was dedicated to ⁓ selling managing ⁓ or selling our Aroxo flavor standards. ⁓ and working with breweries on training tasting panels, identifying off flavors, ⁓ and and that kind of thing. So that was three years, which ⁓ yeah, that that was a great job. ⁓ taught me a lot about beer and beer sensory and sensory in general, ⁓ just method and you know, how to work with people and running panels and things like that. And ⁓ I kind of came to the decision, you know, understanding ⁓ going back to what you learn at brewing school and and how that actually applies is I I realized that I did despite having worked in some breweries, I I felt like kind of the solutions that I was speaking towards in my role ⁓ at CARA, I didn't really have a lot of firsthand experience with it. And I really did need some production experience to talk to ⁓ you know, some of some of the solutions and fixes and troubleshooting. and so I moved back to ⁓ to the US to joined Firestone Walker Brewing Company with an effort to gain a lot more experience ⁓ brewing beer and just encountering the day-to-day troubles. And and so I worked there for about six years, ⁓ both brewing and then ⁓ moved up into the quality lab to run the sensory panel there and manage the sensory program, which was both quality control and and ⁓ had a lot of R D elements too, some consumer testing too. And ⁓ yeah, I came across Abstrax I think, in twenty twenty or so. They were a pretty unique company. They came to us kind of ⁓ just seeing what they could do and saying, hey, we have a lot of really cool ideas in the flavor space. We have some ⁓ high-end analytical equipment. We're breaking down, you know, cannabis to its elemental parts and trying to figure out what makes that plant tick. And we're coming up with some really interesting aromatic solutions out of that from the knowledge we glean and the techniques that we're using and we wonder whether there's room in the brewing space for these kind of solutions. And at the time we kind of, you know, said, whoa, these are really impactful stuff. ⁓ and we we kind of, you know, had some conversations around what we were looking for at Firestone and what might help. And ⁓ we kind of went off on our way. And then they came back a couple of years later ⁓ with some ⁓ unique Top extracts and I smelled those and I was like, okay, now now we're cooking. And so I ⁓ I asked, you know, I jumped to be a part of abstracts ⁓ because I thought that they were doing innovative things that ⁓ I was never taught at brewing school. ⁓ you know, the the way that they were approaching, you know, using ingredients and and introducing them into beverages, again, going back to what you learn, it's like, well, ⁓ for tw 10 years people had told me to do it this way, and Abstrax was coming in saying, hey, we didn't know any of that. We tried doing it this way and we think it works. And then and you know, proof is in the pudding. And I was like, okay, maybe I need to relearn some of these kind of things. So I've been with abstracts for three years so far, and it has been ⁓ you know, relearning and rethinking everything almost every day, you know, as it pertains to brewing, but also, you know. beverage applications and just general aroma chemistry and and you know to to Jonny's point about creative outlets, it's it's wild, you know, you you come into this space where you're totally unrestrained and you just have conversations around the whole like, well what if or what if not? Like what if we could do it this way? What's what's stopping us from doing that? And it really, you know, it brings you full cycle. You start to try and understand why people do it this way in the first place and kind of understand what people have missed or maybe what wasn't invented when those processes were ⁓ first created and developed and so you start to yeah get down some really fun rabbit holes that most of the time don't really work out, but it's all about the journey, right? And ⁓ we we keep noodling on what else we can dream up ⁓ and see whether it'll work. in you know whatever whatever form or or application might be useful. So it's been super fun.

Elizabeth: One of the things that I didn't appreciate, we went to Texas in September last year, CBD THC drinks are massive out in the States. I mean, it seems like such a growth market. not sure if it's ever going to cross over to the UK. It doesn't feel like they'll ever legalize it because they're pretty potent, a lot of those drinks,

Craig: Mm. Yeah, it's definitely Wild West territory. ⁓ and and you know, people are doing all kinds of talks around it and the the lack of regulation or y lack of united front around it from whatever government ⁓ agency you're talking about within the US is is leading to some wild experimentation and ⁓ but it it brings you know it because it's down to us as the operators, as the businesses, ⁓ to kind of figure it out, you know, you learn some really interesting things about about not just yeah, sensory aspects and creating a beverage, but also about, you know, the the social aspects of what these are fulfilling. And one thing that I I learned through, you know, getting into that side of things and and attending some of these ⁓ talks and everything is yeah, you do get ⁓ people who are trying to cram in hundred milligrams of THC into a serving, which is outrageous. ⁓ most of the time people are working with five to ten milligrams, which seems to be a more ⁓ acceptable realm. But you know, as cl as close as we can kind of compare it, you know, you think of it in terms of a of an alcoholic beverage and and the you know the units of alcohol and the amount of time it takes to consume those and how they work within a social set setting where drink, you know, speed of drinking is like actually a pretty ⁓ important part of what makes alcohol a a social lubricant for us. And I think ⁓ almost unconsciously, you know, the beverage industry, whether it beer be beer or wine or cocktails and spirits, like we've all created these beverages that, you know, have you Seated at the table talking with your friends for whatever 30, 40 minutes before you need another one. And so ⁓ trying to transpose that kind of concept into a THC beverage has been a really interesting kind of thought experiment. And not just thought experiment, it's happening now in terms of okay, you know, how do we encapsulate this THC? How do we make it release? How how long does it take for it to take effect? And and how long does it, you know. take before you need another one and and what is that, you know, impact on your on ⁓ you know the high if you want to call it like we're we're comparing it to alcohol because that's the the closest blueprint we have to kind of creating this. But ⁓ even so and we've we've seen it across the world in terms of making just these nuclear strength beverages ⁓ in the alcohol space where all rules are thrown out out the window. But there is an art to ⁓ to beverage making, I guess is what I'm getting at. And ⁓ and it's not just flavor and aroma, but it's understanding how it works within a social setting and the, you know, the real reason people are looking for it. ⁓ and that's been a fascinating kind of learning trajectory for myself too.

Elizabeth: So really is life beyond beer, isn't it? All these interesting kind of directions you could go in with that training. So Jonny, every time I look at your Instagram at the minute, you're doing some incredible, adventurous thing. Like you're doing pop-ups, you're doing DJ nights, Can you just give us an idea of kind of what your life looks like at the minute? It seems like you're doing loads of really interesting things.

Jonny Hamilton: Yeah, I think as much as I thought it was gonna be quite difficult moving away from beer, I think, you know, w whenever ⁓ post ⁓ Beavertown moved up here to start Newbarns and you know, COVID and then it was a really busy post I think we just went like pedal to the to the metal and I don't think I really stopped ⁓ until I left beer. you know, I had lots of things that I was kind of interested but didn't have the time to do. And I in fact, you know, that's why I ended up stepping back from Pellicle because I think the the kind of moment that kind of set it off was trying to do collaboration brews by myself and then get a train down to Manchester to do a talk at or to host talks for Pellicle at Indie Mann and then Trying to then on the train back, trying to sort out more stuff. And I was like, this isn't enjoyable. Like, I have to go back to work tomorrow and be head brewer and I can't do it all. And as much as I would love to be able to do it all, I couldn't with the job that I had. And yeah, whenever I stopped working there, I knew that I wanted to stay in production or something related. You know, I was kind of I had three months' notice ⁓ and started looking on line for, you know, butter and maybe I could be a baker or then I would have to retrain. I don't really want to retrain right now. And I was really lucky that I came across Joram and they were looking for someone with production experience to kind of help grow the brand and but someone who doesn't want to be the perfume maker. ⁓ and I think that was pretty key ⁓ for them. They And for me, you know, I don't want to retrain and have to ⁓ it's such a huge world, ⁓ that I'm quite happy and they're quite happy. I think we're all quite happy is ⁓ Yuan handles the the actual, you know, thing that he's really good at, which is making interesting aromas that people like to wear. And I can figure out how to filter it and you know, get it into bottle and you know, get a new bottling line and shrink wrapper and things like that and you know, use my knowledge To that. But also because of the nature of it not being as immediate as beer. ⁓ you know, if you're canning a beer and ⁓ it's going wrong and it's 4 30 and you still haven't finished packing the beer and you're thinking about ⁓ we we can do it again, we could try tomorrow, but we need that tank empty tomorrow and We will then need to get the beer back in spec. And if we push it back in, it might rise everything up. So realistically, we've all been there. You stay late and you do it. However, when you've got, you know, a radio show at six that you have to cancel quite a lot because you just constantly can't predict work or, you know, missing gigs because the brews, you know, the s the you know, the brews stuck or you know, it was I had all these ideas for things but couldn't really do them. as a head brewer. ⁓ and a lot of people, you know, and I for for a long time it was, you know, my thing. You know, I was, that's Jonny. He's head brewer at Newbarns or then then they want to talk to me about beer. And I think I got to a point where I was like, I don't know if I just want to be Jonny the brewer, or Jonny the Homebrew, or just associated with just one thing. So yeah, it's been a really nice eighteen months now of doing my job. Then getting to go home and ⁓ doing some radio, doing some DJing, hosting, you know, doing events, it's putting on club nights. It's been been really fun. And ⁓ it means that when I'm at work I can you know, i it's not as creatively fulfilling as, you know, getting to order in different malts and, you know, get to make recipes and put things in barrels and all that, but I can just come do my job and then once I leave I can get the creative stuff out in other ways. So yeah, it's been it's been very different to beer but been super enjoyable.

Elizabeth: Final question for both of you. What advice do you have for anyone who's currently in the beer space? Maybe they're doing a production role or something that's maybe not creatively fulfilling them. you suggest they diversify their skill sets in order to move in the direction you've kind of gone in?

Jonny Hamilton: I think ⁓ as as I, you know, would have struggled to take this advice ⁓ whenever I was probably in the depths of it, but I would say definitely trying to find things outside of beer that get your juices flowing creatively, you know, if it's ⁓ you know, music or ⁓ you know, ⁓ about different things. think To be honest, like reading outside of beer is and doing things outside of beer is what made beer more interesting to me. You know, I don't think I would have ever ever put beer in an amphora if I hadn't read about wine or looked into, you know, the history of winemaking in Georgia. You know, I wouldn't have you know, it's the same thing that got me into beer was reading about breweries from across the world. And, you know, you know, there's so much other things outside of beer that are interesting. And I I understand the market is the market is very different now from whenever I was really in it. You know, ⁓ I think half of those ideas that I got to do at Beavertown would be really, really, really hard to sell ⁓ now. And that is a big ⁓ issue. But One thing that they definitely can't teach you at ⁓ university with brewing is like the art aspect as well. I think, you know, like the graphic design and all that stuff is super important and can actually inform ⁓ the beer You know, like when at Newbarns ⁓ all all of branding was kind of based upon ⁓ old and still ⁓ based on a lot of historic things. And o often you'll find ⁓ a design and then from that be like, ⁓ this is a the beer behind this is actually really interesting. I just liked it aesthetically. So yeah, I think just keep your eyes open and, you know, try to take some space away from beer because I think it really can inform better or more interesting projects.

Craig: I'm I'm gonna just regurgitate some advice that ⁓ my and our friend gave me years ago. His name's Amay ⁓ he was on same course with Jonny and I, and he told me once ⁓ as I was coming up with ⁓ I think it was when I was just leaving university, he said, My recommendation, Craig, is you about life and your growth as resting on three pillars. ⁓ you have personal development, professional development, and financial development. And if you find a a path or job that's giving you all three of those, then you hang on to that. That's that's the best you'll ever get. But at the very least you should probably be getting two of them. ⁓ and if you're focusing on only if you're only getting one of them, then it it's gotta really outstrip everything else. So if ⁓ you know, when I was moving to to California, I went with it with the idea that for the next chunk of my life, you know, whether it be a year or three years, professional development was the focus for me. ⁓ and I was gonna put the other two aside for ⁓ for, you know, a time. And that, you know, however long that time exists, it's always worth re reviewing and making sure that you're meeting whatever goals. But I think that in terms of looking ahead, you know, to anyone who's trying to make a change, it's figuring out, you know, what are your priorities in that space and then driving towards it. And, you know, as Jonny said, he he was looking for a little bit more personal development in his life. And so made a change that enabled that. And I think that's some of the best advice I'd ever ever heard. And it served me well. And so I'd I'd give it To anyone ⁓ anyone listening.

Jonny Hamilton: I think there it historically is huge focus on the brewer ⁓ or the head brewer. And ⁓ I think ⁓ for my ⁓ from in my experience the the the the the industry needs more passionate packaging people and engineer people and sales people. ⁓ there's so many jobs within a brewery that I think people get bogged down. And they used to ask me all the time about, you know, people assume that, you know, as a brewer you're just constantly doing the fun bits. And sometimes you are. But ⁓ it's very rare to find like people who are like really good at ⁓ pac and who are like looking for creative solutions to like packaging problems or sellering or things like that. I think is a is there something that I wish they taught more at at university as well is like being the brewer is not the only job in the brewery. Like there's actually like in fact it's it's it's only one part of the the whole the whole mechanism. So yeah I think trying to not just see brewing as the one important job because it doesn't work with in the same way as, you know, I said Having a a brewery full of chemists would be awful. Having a brewery full of just brewers is ⁓ is not not a thing either. It needs ⁓ needs people to be passionate about every aspect of it.