Elizabeth Townsend: That's all from me this week. Thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe on your chosen podcast platform for a brand new episode every Wednesday morning. Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. For our first ever episode, I'm joined by Eva Rainey and Ady Floyd. Two exceptional beer professionals who work in Scotland and judge beer competitions around the world. Ady Floyd is a beer expert, professional beer judge, and the voice behind Just Beer Banter. A certified beer specialist since 2021, she's judged major competitions including the World Beer Awards, Canadian Brewers Awards, SIBA and the Scottish Beer Awards. Passionate about great beer and building community, Ady loves spotlighting local beers and independent breweries while championing diversity, inclusion. and stronger connections within the craft beer world.

Eva: got professionally in beer around seven years ago, so I'd originally studied renewable energy, but then Covid happened and like lots of people I suppose, I wanted a change the thought of working from home full-time at that point was really not appealing. So I had some, I don't know where it came from particularly, I had a bit of existing knowledge about beer. I did a bit of homebrewing and I had a general interest in beer and ⁓ trying different styles and looking at labels and figuring out where they came from.

Elizabeth Townsend: Eva Rainey is a Glasgow-based brewer, beer somellier certified Cicerone and BJCP judge. Formerly a brewer at WEST Brewery she's since launched her own independent project, Mother Tongue Brewing. She has judged at international competitions including the World Beer Awards, the International Beer Challenge, and the Canada Beer Cup. As a WSET certified educator, she now provides face-to-face beer training across Scotland. I sat down with Ady and Eva to find out more about their route into judging beer professionally.

Eva: From there I thought I'll sign up to study something and I went for the general certificate in brewing through the Chartered Institute of Brewing and Distilling. initially I definitely felt like I'd bit off more than I could chew because it was pretty self-led and at quite a technical level and equipment that I was learning about didn't translate to anything I'd seen or done at home before. I went out and reached out to local breweries, asked if anyone would be up for taking a volunteer on for a couple of days a week with

Elizabeth Townsend: and how they turned a talent for taste into a career.

Eva: no expectations, just to give me the chance to see what it is I'm learning about face to face. So a small local brewery got back to me and I started helping out there like once a week and they immediately just got me involved in everything, whether it was the canning line, recipe design, CIPs, whatever. So that experience was really valuable and kind of confirmed for me that that's what I wanted to do long term. So I handed in my notice at work and then not long after that, I got a job at WEST Brewery. So yeah, I love lager. That was a great opportunity to learn on a really big kit, really complicated brew house. And that was great. But I took some time out back my old field of work to put money aside to launch my own small brewing project. And that's kind of where are. And beer judging came in somewhere along the way. was actually Nix Prabhu Glas Ladies Beer Society who put me forward for the Scottish Awards or put them in touch with me to do a bit of judging, which I'd done before. And yeah, that was way in.

Ady Floyd: So when we talk about my very first experience with beer, funnily enough, when I was, let's call it the start of my drinking career. Let's just say that. Back then, I was not really into beer, actually. I was really much more partial to Canadian whiskey. So during my study abroad ⁓ during university, I ended up in London, England, where I had my very first of beer ever. Now, it was a Stella. It was absolutely nothing to write home about. ⁓ So that's kind of my introduction, but years later, I actually started working at the LCBO. So that's the Liquor Control Board of Ontario. It's basically like the alcohol retail store in Ontario, Canada. And so like at the time, there only two stores that actually sold alcohol extensively and exclusively. So that kind of paints a picture of how the times have really changed. But was there that I began to like see myself surrounded by these brewers and these beer reps that would come in and they would be pitching their craft in indie beer and trying to get it into the shelves. So it obviously became part of my, you know, favorite, my favorite part of the job, my favorite part of going into work, being on shift, and these brewers would come in with their amazing samples. And so it was a ton of fun and I was really starting to taste the most flavorful beers that I've ever had. You know, it was pretty mind-blowing, and it was in that moment that my brain went, ⁓ this is actually really good. Like, this isn't just a drink that my granny sips while she's playing cards, you know? There is a huge culture behind it. There's chemistry and history and branding all wrapped up into this beautiful package. And obviously the can art was a huge deal for me, so I am really a marketer's dream. I will buy a beer on a shelf just based on how it looks, which... you know, some hits and some misses, but I always like to say I'll try anything twice. it comes to, you know, moving from there and getting into actually judging. I did move on from my job at the LCBO, but I definitely kept up with all the new beer releases. And, you know, I remember when I was working at the LCBO, they actually have all of their employees go through some wine training. So it was really computer based, but I remember loving that part of the job and getting really fascinated about the history of wine, but obviously I was a little bit more into beer. And so fast forward, my day job at the time was offering what we call an "inspiration fund." So it was really designed to just really encourage employees to, you know, retain their creativity, I suppose, and continue with learning, but learning something that was completely different and outside of my day to day. I took that money immediately and I ran straight to night courses at the George Brown College in Toronto, where earned my Beer Specialist Certification. So the program itself was really, really interesting. It consisted of three different courses. It was Beer 1, Beer 2, and then Complex Beer Pairings. And it was taught by someone who really became my mentor in the beer world. So a huge shout out to Jordan St. John. He's one of the most brilliant humans that I truly know to this day. And during the program, which is directly connected to the Beer Judge Certificate Program because we use the same guidelines. So that was really how I started to learn about actually writing and officially how to taste beer, not just drink it. And so one of the... Yeah,

Elizabeth Townsend: Because that's quite an important thing, isn't it? actually Because can be very theoretical beer. And I think ⁓ agree with this or disagree when you're following guidelines, you have to kind forget about what you know about in a lot of ways and what your preferences are. And you have to be analytical about. what that beer is you have to ⁓ sort of that part of your when you're judging that says, we're just gonna have look at what the guidelines here?

Ady Floyd: Yeah, I definitely do. I think that that is huge part of it. One of the that we did, the kind of final assignment was taste 10 beers, analyze them completely unbiased based on these specific guidelines. Tell me the appearance, the aromas, the flavor and the mouthfeel. And so you really have to sit down and truly kind of retrain your brain from being like, ⁓ tastes good to this taste like, a lager? Does this taste like mixed fermentation sour? Does this actually taste like an IPA or is it more towards just a pale ale? And those small minute differences are very, very challenging when you're actually the world when you're sitting down, but I think that carving out a space to actually analyze it and still being able to go to the pub and enjoy a pint and not overthink what you're drinking every single day, there's a ⁓ learning curve with all of that, but it's really... different way to appreciate beer, I think, and I think that that is just something that has always stuck with me since that program. So I started an Instagram, uh, @ Just Beer Banter, and I kind of treat it as a journal where I do intentionally write tasting notes. It is not my opinion. I truly believe that if I don't like a beer, it doesn't make it bad. It just means it's not for me, and I don't want to put out that kind of negative energy online. There's too much of that anyways. So all of my content is just like, here's what the beer tastes like and looks like, and if it sounds good to you, go try it. And that's kind of the energy that you have to bring into beer judging as well. You don't want to, you know, change anyone's mind about liking a beer, but if it is to style, that makes it technically a good beer. And that technical word is very literal in this situation.

Eva: And I think it encourages you to drink quite broadly as well when you're involved in judging. You can, in some competitions, put forward that you have specific preferences things that you prefer not to judge, but you don't always get that opportunity and depending on where they need judges, you might placed on ⁓ flight of something that you have. It's not your personal of style, but if you don't make habit of drinking broadly through the styles, ⁓ it then becomes quite ⁓ to judge that. unless you are working with something like BJCP guidelines, which are of explicit as to what that beer should taste, look, feel like. And yeah, I'm sure we'll get on to talk about competition shortly, but they ⁓ all kind vary in terms of expectations, whether they're BJCP sanctioned and you're doing it specifically to those parameters or whether it is which is the best which is quite hard to or sometimes they'll kind of lump. different styles into one, which ⁓ makes it very difficult to stay objective, ⁓ especially really popular flights where you might have 30 of the same type of thing. If you've conglomerated three or four different of lagers into one, ⁓ that becomes pretty challenging.

Elizabeth Townsend: ⁓ can you share a bit about what on a judging day? So what's a day in the life like for you when you're judging a competition?

Eva: Yeah, try and wake up nice and early enough time to have a coffee and not have it still on my palate when we have to come to judge. usual things that people will tell you are things like don't wear any strong perfumes or aftershaves. ⁓ you smoke, refrain from doing that. Be hydrated. And just try and be in the right mindset to go in and appreciate your info and yeah, just be conscious of kind of behaviors out with the judging room that might affect your ability to ⁓ properly assess the day you'll turn up, sometimes have notice in advance about which styles or which tables you're going to be on. Sometimes you find out when you arrive, so kind go and find out where you're going to be, introduce yourself and be introduced to the people around about you and usually have a good chat about your background if you haven't met before. And then depends. some competitions they will do like a bit of an introduction. to you what they're looking to get out of the competition and specifically how it's going to be judged and whether or not you're provided with guidelines ⁓ whether or not it's about picking objectively the best beer or the one which is truly to style. If are any exceptions ⁓ in competitions, a mistake we've both probably seen many times are great beers being entered into the wrong categories because across different competitions ⁓ the rules different ⁓ and if a very good beer but it's not to the style ⁓ Can it be substituted into another category or is that a hard no we have to judge it based on it being representative of the category that's been entered. So any kind of caveats like that, just a run through of how that day is going to go is usually how we go. And again, depending on the kind of competition depends on how much feedback you give, whether you judge independently and then have a conversation or whether you judge collectively is something that in most cases you discuss with your table mates and make a decision on. Sometimes good, at least for the first few, just while you kind of calibrate kind of judge silently and then have a chat just to make sure that you're not inadvertently influencing anyone to think a certain way. But that's kind of how I would see a judging day.

Ady Floyd: Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty, pretty accurate. I will just say one addition is that depending on again, the competition, of course, most often, you're going to be provided with some sort of material about the style that you're judging. So whether that is, you know, an overview from the Beer Judge certificate program guidelines from the specific event or company that you're working with, they will provide some sort of guidelines in terms of like how they categorize the style that you're looking at, which is always helpful because fairly consistent across the board, I would say, but they can vary in some different areas. And a lot of the time, you are judging completely blind, so you don't have a ton of information, but there will be certain cases if there are any adjuncts that need to be ⁓ mentioned the top or within the category that will definitely be noted. Sometimes you'll get the ABV, but I don't think that's very common. So again, it is, here's the category and then you are just judging that completely blind.

Elizabeth Townsend: Eva, you're a brewer. I don't know if Ady you do any brewing at home or professionally you know how to brew? OK, cool. Right.

Ady Floyd: Absolutely not, no. My expertise lies very much within the taste side of things. I have, of course, joined some of the brew days that we do for International Women's Day, and we did have to collectively brew a beer when I was in school for it, but on my own, that definitely not my area of expertise. I simply don't have the patience, but I am a huge admirer of both of you and everyone who does take on that challenge. It's impressive.

Elizabeth Townsend: ⁓ do you find that being a brewer is helpful when you're judging do you think that now that you your own brewery, you're even more conscious of, I guess, being critical of others? ⁓

Eva: what's really important about judging is that it always just needs to be objective ⁓ and never critical and if there's feedback there as a brewer I would always want to receive that feedback ⁓ and I would hate to think that anyone at face-to-face or on a brew day or something like that was drinking the beers and just telling me what they thought I wanted to hear because I don't want to hear that I want to hear what you didn't like about it or what you questioned about it or what ⁓ questions I need to of myself. ⁓

Ady Floyd: you

Eva: which I think I do and sometimes it's nice to get a bit of positive reinforcement that actually it is the way that you intended it to be. But yeah, if there's feedback there, that's what you want, especially at homebrew level as well. You don't know what you're going to get there. We both judged that the Scottish National Homebrew Competition in January and a lot of the samples that we judged, a lot of them scored very highly, had been sent over by a homebrew club in Finland. So you don't know if you're dealing with someone who has been home brewing for decades, who has really high tech equipment or whether it's someone's first shot at this with the that I was working on in pots and pans, ⁓ you don't know ⁓ and judging them against one another. But ⁓ any competition I've ever judged that and certainly the way that the BJCP do things, ⁓ there's focus on trying give constructive feedback while also highlighting things that are good and sometimes that's just that it was well packaged or that the labels were correctly removed from the bottle or that it looked nice in the glass but that's all really important. We want to encourage people to brew more and to do more interesting things and to put themselves out there and we're not going to get anywhere by being overly critical of anyone but being honest and being objective and the feedback is super important and yeah it definitely goes both ways I think as a brewer I think the judging side of things is really interesting just to calibrate my palate against lots of other more experienced judges and experts in the industry helps me do things better and equally as a judge it lets me see what's out there, what the competition's like, if there's anything that I've tasted inspire me to go off and find out after the competition who was that, what was that, how did you do it. I think it's equally beneficial being on the brewing and the judging side of things.

Ady Floyd: I will say it's also important for non-brewers to know the to have whatever technical background they can when going into judging because Eva's right when you're talking about something like a home brew competition and your job is to give feedback, you want to be able to give accurate feedback. So knowing what potentially could have gone wrong, if you do have an off flavour or something along those lines, you want to be able to speak educationally towards that and give relevant advice and... ⁓ you know, feedback that's going to be usable for the actual brewer themselves. And, more importantly, doing or maintaining off-flavour training is also very, very important. So learning about what causes those off-flavours is going to be something that you want to continue to do as a judge, just again, so you can be as authentic and impartial. And then, of course, giving that information back to the brewer to give them more guidance and perfecting their beers in the future.

Elizabeth Townsend: start to identify diacetyl, you can't ever forget that horrible, buttery taste.

Eva: Well, you say that, that's a blind spot for me, ⁓ which is not helpful as someone who predominantly brews lager. ⁓ But yeah, thankfully I lagered it for long enough that that's never been an issue and it belongs to some extent, you could say, in a Czech lager. ⁓ yeah, I think that's really important about the off flavour stuff as well is like, will know what...

Elizabeth Townsend: Who is it?

Ady Floyd: Yeah, it's hilarious.

Eva: what you're good at and you can probably train yourself to a certain degree on all of these things. I don't think I'm completely blind to it but I know that I am not the quickest to pick that up whereas other off flavours like acetaldehyde, DMS, stuff like that jumps out at me right away like from the glass oftentimes diacetyl is not prominent to me so again that helps me when I'm brewing to get multiple opinions in a judging environment. We have opportunity to judge with multiple other people so that no one person's weakness or blindness to something would be detrimental to the overall score or performance of that beer in the competition.

Elizabeth Townsend: a head judge when you're on a judging panel? Is there someone who's like the kind of senior person who kind of oversees it all?

Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah, usually like a table captain. most more experienced person, someone who's usually been involved in that competition in the past. Not necessarily to ⁓ kind rule over everything, but just to make sure everything goes smoothly and make sure that we're on time and that, you know, we're taking an objective look at things.

Ady Floyd: Yeah, I was gonna say it's more logistics based at that point because you do tend to have a lot of people who are sort of in the same caliber when it comes to judging, but having someone there to kind of lead the charge is just always helpful. Just keeping things organized, keeping things moving.

Elizabeth Townsend: what's the gender split like competitions now of judging panels? How do you think ⁓ being a woman your entry into judging? there been ⁓ challenges? Have there been any benefits ⁓ of the panel?

Eva: think that's something that I would not put myself forward to judge, you know, out of nowhere, even I was, I was brewing at WEST at the time when I first was invited to join a competition. I would not put myself forward for that. And I don't know ⁓ if it was like lack of awareness on my part about what the competition side of things looked like or whether it was some of intrinsic feeling that maybe this isn't for me for some reason. I think Nix has done an excellent job with just being a great advocate for women in the industry shout out to Nix. she put my name forward. I felt vastly under qualified. I was at a table with the Tennants brewmaster at that point of 47 years or something like that and a master Cicerone. And, you know, I'm just the brewer. have no at this point, I had no qualifications in sensory, nothing like that. But involved in the competition was super welcoming and after being at that table for a few hours I learned so much and definitely caught the bug ⁓ go off and as much sensory training as I could and put myself forward to be in as many competitions as ⁓ possible I wouldn't taken that initial first step which I couldn't say sure is because I am a woman but maybe there's something to do with that.

Ady Floyd: I definitely think that inclusivity is a huge part of the beer industry regardless of what we're talking about judging or just being involved in the brewing side and in the retail side and any kind of ⁓ role that can be played within the beer world. But when it comes to judging, I will say that my very first ⁓ beer competition was for the World Beer Awards. It was on behalf of Canada, I just happened to be judging alongside a woman and a man. So that was... great. very first experience was very, I wouldn't say it was representational of what the actual scene looks like today, but for me it was lovely because it was really great to see that there was more women involved and that I wasn't going to be alone in this. You really don't know what to expect when you're walking in on any of those judging days. Eva and I were actually the only two female judges at the Scottish Homebrew Competition and we are always of course encouraging more women, more non-binary folks to get involved in these and There are great communities, specifically in Scotland, such as the Glasladies to get involved, such as the Women in Beer. They have a great mentorship program. So just really helping to spread the word, I think, is one of the most important things. But I think that it kind of varies with whatever ⁓ competition you're going to. I think a of the CAMRA the Campaign for Ale competitions that I've judged, there has been predominantly more in that specific space, but we're going to just continue to push ⁓ equity. And I think that as long as we keep having these types of conversations I to push my way into these sorts of things. will be emailing everyone I possibly can, reaching out to every competition just because I know I'm good at what I do. I know I'm a great judge when it comes to tasting beer and I want to be part of this. want more women to see us out there, to want to get involved and to not be scared to do it just because it can be a little bit intimidating. It's such a historical drink to be judging, but you know, you're probably more capable than you think.

Elizabeth Townsend: Do you have any advice, either of you, for women who think they want to get into beer judging?

Ady Floyd: It's so much fun. ⁓ First and ⁓ if you a passion for beer, I would definitely recommend it. ⁓ I would recommend just like talking to anyone who's actually done it before to kind of calm your nerves. If you're nervous about going into it, we can walk you through what to expect, sort of some best practices. But yeah, if it's something that you want to take seriously, then you absolutely should do it. It's really good. It's a great way to meet people within the community that you might not otherwise have an opportunity to meet as well.

Eva: Yeah.

Ady Floyd: For me, it's a really great community builder. When I moved to Scotland, I was working from home. I still am. ⁓ Beer kind of helped me get out there to meet other people. was ⁓ of fun exploring pubs and getting involved in these community events and festivals. And then Judging just opened up this whole new avenue for making new friends, but also making really great connections within the Beer world. So I think word of mouth is actually really, really valuable. it comes to beer judging, when it comes to the beer community in general.

Eva: I would agree. Definitely just put yourself forward. Don't feel that you need to be doing the most and that you need to be an expert or a master of anything before you look to get involved. Some more prestigious competitions, for example, might have long waiting lists of people looking to judge. There might be an expectation that you have certain qualifications or prior experience, but you can get started as an apprentice judge. very very quickly in a formal way if you do go through the BJCP that's predominantly so spending a lot of time with the guidelines just getting to know different types of beer academically and the key statistics and ABV ranges and things like that and also bit of knowledge about the brewing process but you can go you can take the entrance exam it does feel quite frantic I think you get 90 minutes to answer 180 multiple choice questions so while it is open if you're relying on the you're not going to go anywhere in that amount of time. But a bit of study and in some cases, depending on where you are, there might be a study group in place already if you ask at local home brew clubs or ⁓ bottle shops and bars. I think that's happening in Edinburgh at the moment through the Scottish Craft Club. You someone's organized some some training there to help prepare people to take their their BJCP tasting exam. But ⁓ before even get to that stage, you can do it online. a shot at it, see where your strengths are, where you might need to spend a little bit more time ⁓ it's really low cost as well, which I know can be a big barrier ⁓ getting into these things on a formal basis. So ⁓ a good way to get into it. If you pass that entrance exam, you can take as many attempts as you want to. You'll to pay for them obviously, but again it's not incredibly expensive to do that compared to other qualifications. ⁓ You then join competitions. You're an apprentice judge at that stage. ⁓ be paired with more experienced judges who you right and help build up your beer your understanding of off flavours, your understanding of styles. And then a tasting exam rolls around, you can sign yourself up for that. And again, hopefully link up with people in that community that can support your learning ahead of that exam.

Ady Floyd: Just listening to Eva actually, I also think something important is to just enjoy beer taking tours, I think is also a really great way to learn about the actual brewing process. You're going to get a lot of technical information and a lot of great verbiage from those, but you're also going to do some tastings at the end and you're going to be able to learn a little bit from the actual brewer or someone who works within the brewery to learn about the different styles and what you're actually tasting. So if you're more of a novice, just going into it from that perspective and just sort of building up that repertoire, I think is a really great way to do that. It's still something that I actually love doing. Funnily enough, that's how Eva and I first met. I took a brewery tour at WEST was probably my first month or two in Scotland, and we became fast friends after that. So you never know who you're going to meet if you just get out there and start kind of dabbling in it. And I also always recommend getting a flight when you're at a brewery or at a pub. I think that's a really fun way to

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Ady Floyd: Check out different styles and just get comfortable again tasting things you might not typically go to.

Elizabeth Townsend: the beer landscape in Scotland the minute? Are there any Scottish or breweries you want to recommend?

Ady Floyd: Scotland is amazing. Mother Tongue is absolutely blowing it out of the water right now. Could not recommend their beer enough. Really phenomenal. Haven't had a beer from them I don't like. would recommend that, definitely. But if you think about it creatively, Scottish brewers are really able to balance traditional...

Elizabeth Townsend: you

Ady Floyd: styles and even cask with really innovative, beautiful new styles, new flavors, new concepts. And if you take a look at what we have more, you know, traditional sours or mixed fermentations like Holy Goat, for example, and you look at something like a Vault City, which is way different and more into that modern sour, like we're really crossing every category within Scotland. And I honestly am really blown away by it. I love that this is kind of a smaller country, obviously coming from Canada. you get to really try these beers and really actually connect with the brewers and the people involved. And you know, one thing that I will say is that because the scene isn't very overwhelming here, the collaborations that you see, they feel so genuine. They're not performative. Like they are really loving what they're doing. They're making amazing beers because that's what they want to do. They want to give that to the consumers here and they're doing a really, really good job at it.

Eva: Thank you for the shout out as well, Ady. I'm too modest to say that. no, the quality of beer in Scotland is absolutely excellent. For me, as a lager lover, do everything correctly. And it was one of their beers that I had. I can't remember when would have been now. It was Haná was Czech style Pilsner beer.

Ady Floyd: Hehehe. Hehehe.

Eva: And yeah, it was absolutely fantastic. And I think sometimes look at yourself and compare that. I mean, it's inevitable. Like you're going to look at yourself compared to ⁓ other and think, okay, if, they're doing such a great job this, then why would I put myself out there whatever? But tasting that beer made me think, okay, actually is something that I want to do. You can, can create something that's not trying to be. ⁓ beer that's been sent over in a shipping container from Germany or from the Czech Republic. It's something all of its own, it's more than the sum of its parts and you can use historical ingredients, you can use them in a modern way, you can be innovative and bend style guidelines a little bit, which probably doesn't help too much with competitions, ⁓ but interesting as a explore those things. yeah, for me, Brewery are doing everything brilliantly. I agree Holy Goat with the mixed fermentation side of things and also a lot of the clean beers that they're starting to, or non-mixed fermentation beers that they're starting to do now are an equally good standard and that's such a difficult thing to achieve, ⁓ to master both of those very different things. Otherworld for me are another brewery that just, they seem to do everything. ⁓ They have so new beers all the time.

Ady Floyd: Mm-hmm.

Eva: really interesting styles that you don't see very often like tropical stouts and really you name it they're they're doing it ⁓ they seem to do it all to a brilliant standard so I if you had to identify any single beer style there's probably someone in Scotland making a really ⁓ a good job of it so yeah get out there try as much as you can you won't be disappointed

Ady Floyd: Mm. talking about getting out there, there are so many really amazing beer festivals within Scotland throughout the year. not just happening in the summertime. Of course, you have things like Fyne Fest, which is a whole weekend within the summer. But you have Glasladies hosting their annual Beer is for Everyone festival, which is just a one day event. But there are new events coming up all the time. I know that 71 Brewing Up in Dundee. ⁓ It's going to be hosting an International Women's Day food, drink and arts fest as well. And these are really great places to get into to check out different breweries, to get some samples, try out different styles and flavors. If you think about things like SIBA they do their events as well. a lot going on within Scotland, but of course they do the whole entirety of the UK. But if we're going to shout out some breweries, I got to say a shout out to Closet Brewing for sure. Stewart Brewing is amazing. I've already said mother tongue, but I'll say it again. William Brothers actually just released a phenomenal new lager Can't recommend that enough. And Strangers Brewing and Linlithgow as well as doing some really great stuff.

Eva: Thank you.