Elizabeth Townsend: Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer on Instagram. Throughout the series I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. Today I'm joined by two beer professionals in the Republic of Ireland, Sarah Branagan and Marco Mammoli. That's it from me this week on First Draught Thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe on your chosen podcast platform for a brand new episode every Wednesday. Formerly an organic farmer and home fermenter living in Italy, Sarah Branagan joined Rye River Brewing Company as a brewer. Since recording the podcast, Sarah has left Rye River, to make a move to Spain to continue working in the field of fermentation. Marco Mammoli is a certified Cicerone and Sommelier and has worked as lead brewer at Galway Bay Brewery for the last eight years. From speaking to Marco and Sarah, it's evident that they've had exceptional careers working in beer, with infectious enthusiasm for what they do. Let's have a listen.

Sarah: been brewing ⁓ professionally for so I came to it quite late. ⁓ I had home brewing, the usual story. I got into ⁓ more through sort other food production. So I was farming, putting stuff away, trying to preserve and ferment, et cetera. I was making wine as well. ⁓ that over into ⁓ home brewing then I thought okay right I'm going to give this a go professionally and I started with Rye River so I kind of went from like I haven't actually had to do this on a grander scale and then up to Shift Brewer which is where I am now within Rye River so quite technological, which was definitely a challenge. Now it's great. At the start, it was a bit intimidating because I was going literally from buckets to, a 10,000 litre kit

Marco Mammoli: I'd say I probably had something very similar. I've been involved in craft beer since 2011, but I've started working as a brewer. It's been eight years now since I've been brewing for Galway Bay. But I graduated in culinary arts. I worked as a chef in kitchens for five years. I was miserable. And I did a I fell in love with wine. I did all the WSET courses and then I got a job as a wine sommelier. I really enjoying but I was always curious about beer even though I didn't knew anything. I remember having Sierra Nevada and Punk IPA around 2011 and that kind of blew my mind. And that was around the time the first beer sommelier courses arrived in Brazil where I'm from. so I did the course. really liked it. ⁓ Started working as a beer sommelier in ⁓ a bottle shop, started promoting tastings. And then I got involved with the home brewing community around my town. involved at the local brewery, started volunteering, and then I started home brewing. And then ⁓ I moved to Ireland in 2016, and then I got a job Galway Bay at 2018.

Sarah: I was ⁓ ⁓ Italy for a long time, ⁓ the kind of wine. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ think myself, Marco, have actually talked about this before, because he has some Italian connections as well, so he knows the brewery. I tasted of the sours by a brewery near Bologna Cadelbrado. So this one they make. with cherries and one they make with apricots ⁓ ⁓ couldn't, I just couldn't believe what I was drinking. It's lambic style, let's say, ⁓ mixed and they completely blew me away and I thought, my god, ⁓ how they doing this and how do I do it? I'm still trying to figure the second part out. then another IPA, which is called Spaceman, which again, that's by BrewFist. So they're probably the two that I remember thinking, this is something really, really different. And I'd love to be able to make it.

Marco Mammoli: when I was at college I just hated the mass produced lagers which I now learned to love but I just really didn't like There was a lot of peer to drink them so I drank it but it never caught my attention or anything like that. And then only ⁓ when I started drinking, I ⁓ wish my was as cool as Sarah. ⁓ ⁓ It was ⁓ all the American IPAs ⁓ that those were the one that like did the craft beer revolution in Brazil around 2011. And then from there, they opened up the door for lambics and imperial stouts and like saison and stuff like that. But at the beginning, it was heavily dominated by American IPAs. And then because of Imbev having such a huge influence on the market in Brazil, they noticed that and they started adding in their portfolio all the big brands like ⁓ German brands like Erdinger, Weisstephaner and so on. So Hoegaarten from Belgium and that kind of because of that something really interesting happened that like right now in Brazil all the breweries they have as in like they have to have a Weizen or a Witbier Belgian wheat beer in their core range because like the public is so well used to it. ⁓ Yeah

Elizabeth Townsend: Galway Bay founded one of the first craft brew pubs in 2009 and Rye River have been trading since 2013. How has the beer landscape changed over the last 15 or so years, particularly when thinking about modern beer styles? Has Ireland had the same craft beer boom as the UK? ⁓

Marco Mammoli: Well, to my foreign perspective, I think that Ireland still... I wouldn't call it being like behind, but ⁓ it's just having its own thing. the UK, it's more in tune what happened in North America or what's happening in Scandinavia. it's always in tune. Like whatever's happening there, it's happening in the UK simultaneously. No wonder all the breweries I've been in the world there there's always like a British brewer there because they're so good at it But I feel I feel like Ireland it's a bit more toned down because I feel like the pint culture is slightly more intense here than than it is in the UK people just can't venture into like smoothie sours or like super heavy like 35 plato Imperial Stouts or crazy juicy hazy IPA's feel like the hazy IPA's in Ireland in general even like any brewery is capable of doing Just as well. ⁓ It's just slightly toned down. I think

Sarah: Yeah, I'd agree. think Ireland is very much limited by a ⁓ lack of beer bars, which like ⁓ Marco, you talk about that a lot more because obviously Gulley Bay has tried to do that and to establish bars and it's really difficult because of licensing laws. ⁓ So what get is just ⁓ a kind of hegemony of your standard bar. In Ireland you can't, I know we'll talk about this again, you can't open, like a brewery can't open just a taproom. You have to have a full pub. So that kind of means that the channels for breweries are licenses and supermarkets. that obviously then you're talking about like bigger distribution, bigger numbers, and that limits the sort of experimentation you can do, I'm sure. So we're a bit middle of the road probably in Ireland compared to a lot of other countries because we can't do a wild thing and just stick a few kegs of it on in the top room. I think that's been a big limit and will probably continue to be a big limit.

Elizabeth Townsend: So in a nutshell, can you explain the licensing laws in the Republic of Ireland?

Sarah: ⁓ ⁓ obviously I'm ⁓ a vintner, family has a pub at home, ⁓ so I tiny bit of experience on that side, but you have to have a pub license which costs a lot of money in order to sell even your beers that you're producing, so can't sell it. for takeout, can't sell it for consumption on the premises unless you have either an off-license or an on-trade license, which is a massive investment for anyone. You can do tours ⁓ and you can do tastings and like ticketed events, but that wouldn't you to have a bar that. you have to buy a pub license if you want to open a taproom.

Elizabeth Townsend: So it's not quite straightforward as in the UK. the reliance on off licenses and perhaps producing for supermarkets is something that's critical for the success of a brewery in Ireland?

Sarah: Yeah, definitely, because it's essentially your only outlet. There are craft beer bars around the country, but there's not very many of them. And for example, one of the famous ones in Dublin ⁓ closed. So if they couldn't keep the doors open in Dublin, that's a very bad sign. if you're not producing to the supermarket and off-licenses and requests, you're going to struggle to have outlets.

Elizabeth Townsend: I guess that's the big investment as well for the brewery. You know, have to have your SALSA accreditations, your packaging line, everything needs to be much more of high quality professional setup. So it doesn't really encourage, smaller breweries to start up.

Sarah: No, definitely not. No, and like your what you're producing as well is never going to be experimental because the supermarkets, sort of bigger chains are not, they're just not going to put it on the shelves, which, you know, that's understandable from their point of view. There was recently, just in the last couple of days, one of the pubs in Dundalk called Mc... I don't know if you've heard of them, Elizabeth, but they have a great pub they produce own lager. They get it contract brewed in Dundalk they did a whole sort of publicity thing where they were on hunger strike until Tesco stocked their lager. they're very out there and they've got a great social media presence. I'm hoping the hunger strike thing was just a gimmick. But they've called it off anyway, even if it wasn't, because they're now in Tesco's, which like there are ways to, I suppose, not just force your way in, but like hijack the licensing laws, let's say. they're also producing a lager that has quite a solid popular following and social media presence. So that's an easy sell really for Tesco's. Like you're not, going out too far on a limb, I suppose, by stocking another lager.

Marco Mammoli: I also think the fact that ⁓ most of supermarkets, won't have cold chain and they won't have cold storage. That kind of limits your options of experimental stuff you want to do as well. It's like sell off license there. There a lot of beers that they will stock on shelves, like on a warm shelf. So you kind of have to ⁓ easy on whatever you're brewing. ⁓ don't want to do like a 20 gram a liter dry hop. ⁓ delicate IPA. ⁓ and to be there to be sitting on a warm shelf, like three months old, you know.

Elizabeth Townsend: So it's more kind of circumstantial really, rather than there's not an appetite for those types of beers from the general public. Do you find that people are really keen to visit your breweries and try the beer at the source?

Sarah: Definitely. Yeah, we do brewery tours, I think we do two a month at the moment ⁓ and they're always full. we're outside Dublin, we're not in Dublin, which maybe if you were in Dublin, it might be a bit easier. And a of the people who come are kind of from the area and they're curious about what's going on. that ⁓ would be to be able to, know, not capitalize on but to expand that a bit. ⁓ and you know, feed back into that curiosity somehow with maybe a taproom. there's definitely ⁓ an interest in what's on. Even people who are not particularly interested in beer. I was amazed. I've done the tours every now and then. you know, sometimes ⁓ you get a good of the 20 or 25 people who say to you, no, I don't like beer. And For me, that was a bit of a surprise. They're well, what are you doing coming on a brewery tour? But they're interested in what's going on. And then you can try and give them, say, a barrel-age or something. like, oh, that doesn't really taste like beer, because it doesn't taste like macro lager. And you kind of win people over sometimes, which is great. But yeah, there's definitely interest in what's going on. mean, Irish people do like support in local businesses. can be like hyper local in a lot of ways. So I think it would work if we had a system a bit more like, you know, the British system where a brewery can open a taproom or have a taproom. But that's a ⁓ battle.

Marco Mammoli: I agree. We ⁓ don't do tours here at the brewery, at least not formal tours. from to the end of summer, it's nonstop ⁓ American or even people from Ireland just driving, stopping by the brewery, looking for tours or looking to buy our beers. ⁓ And we have two bars in Galway, we ⁓ try make them go ⁓ into and... Use our bars as some sort of taproom and like we have some some cans to go in the fridge there if they want to but yeah It's a shame

Elizabeth Townsend: It must be really discombobulating when, especially people from America who are used to, you know, I was in Texas in September and there was a tap room on the end of every street pretty much with a little brewery. It must be very confusing for them to come over to Ireland and not be able to access that beer.

Marco Mammoli: every time I try to explain, ⁓ look at me like I have two heads. ⁓

Sarah: Yeah, it just, doesn't, it doesn't make much sense that Like we had a guy literally walked in through the front door the other day and was like, can I not just sit down and have a beer? And we were like, ⁓ no, sorry, you have to leave.

Elizabeth Townsend: into mainland Europe? Do you have a lot of exports with your breweries?

Sarah: I think both of our breweries do, yeah. And some other ones as well. You get a good, say the Italian context, there's a lot of Irish breweries selling in Italy. It's very well established market, so they're always looking for new things. And they will definitely come and get Irish stuff and not just Reds and Stouts, like you get a decent amount of Reds and Stouts, you I mean, know you're, you do a lot of colabs with. different Italian breweries, Marco and White Hag have done quite a few with Italian breweries. ⁓ So yeah, we sell a lot on the continent. Italy, Holland are probably the two biggest and then smaller amounts to the different countries.

Marco Mammoli: Yeah, for me it's much the same, but every country is different. Like, Holland would be more interested in the one-offs in the barrel-aged beers, like big stuff. ⁓ Italy would be half and half. Spain would be more ⁓ core-range stuff. France as well. Scandinavia, they want stouts because for them it's very trendy at the moment, but they want the one-offs as well. Yeah, every country is different, but it works well for exports.

Elizabeth Townsend: you've just alluded to this Marco, but we've noticed ⁓ a increase in the UK and people drinking certain Irish beer brands. ⁓ How that impact your operations? Do you have to adapt your brewing schedule to meet ⁓ demands in local area or in Ireland? Or is it just business as usual? Is it kind of missing Ireland completely and just coming straight to us?

Marco Mammoli: I know very much, so I noticed a big shift ⁓ just from the past two years, I think, because of the popularity of big brands and that becoming popular. And I noticed a big increase in stouts and red ales, ⁓ not only for export, but even for the local market. We started doing more. variants of nitro stouts as well, like we do it with some other ingredients we can try to release something around St. Patrick's Day. But definitely ⁓ a change in the brewing schedule, which I don't mind. They're higher turnover beers. ⁓ I much prefer to brew them. ⁓ They hold a very special place in my heart. I love brewing them. I love cellaring them. I love drinking them. So it's a win-win.

Sarah: Yeah, probably the same. I think I've noticed it more with the reds. Stout has always been like nitro stout especially. It's always been a solid part of what we do. that's maintained its position, maybe a bit of an increase. But yeah, there seems to be a lot of people hankering for reds which had gone like completely out of fashion for a few years. And now it seems to be back. And I'd say that's connected to just more malt forward stuff in general, like the fact that people are now, breweries are doing lagers and that whole family. then, Dark Mild seems to be the coolest thing in the world at the moment, which I never thought I'd say that sentence So I was.

Elizabeth Townsend: love a dark mild. ⁓ it's my favourite.

Sarah: I was working, was a guy working, an English fellow working one of the other brewers, he's finished up now, but he was in, he was in the Rye River with me and he swore by a dark mild was like Joe, you're out of your mind, don't, you can't, that's not a thing. And yeah, he's won me over. So there you go. It's definitely an interesting turn of events, but just generally using more malt, like, concentrating on the malt maybe more so. I mean, that's always going to be the sort of seesaw nature of craft brewing it's like hops, hops, hops, malt, malt, Maybe one day it'll be yeast, yeast, yeast. I don't know. I think it's definitely, it's an interesting development to see reds being ⁓ sought after. And yeah, think that the thing probably in Ireland has always been fairly stable. ⁓ we're not seeing such a huge jump way maybe ⁓ British breweries are. trying to fill a gap or something. But definitely ⁓ very to see.

Elizabeth Townsend: I've spoken to quite a few brewery owners as part of my podcast series, but as brewery employees, do you have much input in what you're brewing? Do you get many kind of opportunities to experiment or is it very much prescriptive?

Marco Mammoli: I know I do have a fair amount of ⁓ freedom on the process and styles and stuff. Obviously that always have to go through ⁓ sales and brewery and everything, but ⁓ I kind of to do my own thing. even like for the two years, every summer we've been playing around with ⁓ Brazilian style called Catharina Sours like people seem to like it. obviously I can't. ⁓ go super crazy, like do 100 % what I want, I think it's, I'll put it this way, ⁓ can meet in the middle, you know, like the brewery sales team and me.

Sarah: our situation is probably a bit different. We do a lot of core range stuff and because we don't have bars, our channels are very much like supermarkets, licenses. So as brewers, our input into the different SKUs are with the seasonals. We do five or six seasonals a year. So we all put forward recipes those. one of the recipes will be usually taken from one of the brewers. Some people feel more strongly about the barrel aged or I'm always trying to get the sours because that's kind of what I'm into. So we don't do as many one-offs. So obviously there's not as many recipes, let's say, up for grabs. There's also quite a few of us. 12 brewers in total. So that'll be a lot of recipe. I think we're kind of at two extremes in that sense.

Elizabeth Townsend: Sarah, you've alluded to the Reds and Stouts of Ireland's beer scene. if you were making a pitch to somebody who was just about to come their ever trip, how would you reach people who would normally default to big brands?

Sarah: I'd say the best way to ⁓ reach who are, yeah, who are kind of going to fall back on big brands is to tell them about the few craft beer pubs or bars that there are. Because I think if they go there and they chat to the people who are working there and they try something, that will be enough to swing them, Like the pub scene in Ireland is great, but they're kind of carbon copies of one another. a lot of the pubs you could be in any one in the country and you're not really necessarily feeling the difference. Whereas the cool thing about some of the, like the Galway Bay pubs, like if you go to the Dew Drop Inn in Galway or the Salt House they're two completely different places. So, you know, there's more of. a feeling of, okay, I'm actually in Galway here, you know, whereas maybe it's because there's such network of Irish pubs all over the world that like, we all know the feeling of being in an Irish pub. So it's nice to be somewhere a little bit different. or maybe that's just my kind of bias because I like going in and not seeing all the exact same taps. so this is the other thing that happens in Ireland, because we don't have like local breweries, whether that's craft or not, the same way as you do in the UK, every single pub in the country has the same 12 taps, except for the craft beer places. literally, you'll go in and you'll see the same row of taps in front of you. If you're in West Cork or Donegal it doesn't The only place you can get something bit different is in the craft beer places. So ⁓ I'd probably just tell them to and... Try and find something that isn't ⁓ just your standard carbon copy Irish pub.

Marco Mammoli: I'd say something very similar. the vast majority of people, see brewery, they see beers as a commodity, not as like something with flavor, with an experience, you know. So I would try to convince them to try something still within their comfort zone, but something that could excite them, that could like ignite curiosity. for example, as Sarah mentioned, we have two pubs in Galway which are completely different. They're both in the city center, but in different areas. And we often get people who just like wander in looking for a pint of like whatever the most popular brands ⁓ that they're looking for like try to convince them. Like we do have like a seasonal oyster stout So if the person doesn't have like any dietary restrictions, we try to offer them see if they could. Try it, it's actually brewed with oysters, local oysters. Or if they are into lagers, maybe try to offer an Italian Pils. And if that ignites something, that sparks curiosity ⁓ gives people something, ⁓ maybe from just go to something different. Try ⁓ a on Nitro, try. And then from then, ⁓ an pale ale a Hazy IPA, or even a West Coast. until you get to like big barrel-age beers. I think it's, when it comes to that, it's always baby steps, because otherwise you just scare people or, yeah, you'll turn them off.

Elizabeth Townsend: you're really making me want a pint now. The sun is shining and just hearing you talk about that. ⁓ current beer or brewery recommendations? what are you drinking at the minute?

Sarah: Yeah. so there's a tiny place the middle of Ireland in a called Ballymahon in County Longford called it's Wide Street Brewing. ⁓ know, and he's making, think, some of the best sours in the universe. Well, no, probably the universe. No, he's great. He's Sean is his name Sean and Carla, because it's the two of them who are doing it. He's like gone on bio prospecting his yeast and everything. And he does kind of cool ships and he ⁓ does spontaneous fermentation, ages everything in barrels. his stuff is just amazing. think the best sours I've tasted in a long time.

Marco Mammoli: when it comes to Irish stuff, I'll definitely I'll say the same thing for Irish beers. I am a huge fan of Italian craft beer and craft beer culture I think they are in to my eyes. They are the ones holding the torch for Not only innovation but doing their own thing while the rest of the world just follow whatever it's trendy at the moment and just like they do for everything, for fashion, for food, for architecture, for design. give two breweries that I really like in Italy. huge, huge fan. they do one is more classical, which is Beneficio Italiano. They've been around since 1998. They're the inventors of the Italian Pilsner. And they do everything so, so well. They do sours, they mostly do lagers, they dark lagers which are amazing. They have one called Nigredo which is just out of this world. It's not a Schwarz beer but it's not an Amber lager, it's own thing. And ⁓ I really like Alder just outside of Milan in a city called Sereno. To me when it comes to hoppy beers they are ⁓ They do lagers really well as well, when it comes to West Coast IPAs, they do just as well as Russian River, for example. They do the most amazing West Coast IPAs. give more from Estonia, Pühaste just a huge fan. We got to collaborate with them a few years ago and it was just like that. ⁓ It was such a groupie moment for me, with a brewery that you've always admired for so long. and ⁓ they do incredible sours, do barrel age I think they're one of the best in Europe.

Sarah: you must know Crack up in Padova, do you? Yeah, they're great as well. And I love like their whole process of, mean, they're doing a whole, like they have a hop farm and they're growing their own grains. I'm not sure what the malting situation is, because that's obviously a very tricky step, but they're kind of

Marco Mammoli: Yes, I do, I do.

Sarah: a birificio agriculo, so like agricultural brewery. So they'll go right from the field to the finished product, which is just a very, a very cool concept. It happens a lot in sort of bread making or it's happening more and more in bread making and obviously in, you know, sort of the chef in world in general. But it's, ⁓ starting to happen in brewing as well, which is, which is very positive. interesting development I think.

Marco Mammoli: ⁓ yeah. I hope you get to see more and more of that,

Sarah: Yeah.