Elizabeth Townsend: Welcome to First Draft, a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draft is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Keru Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting the very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. My guest this week is Brian Spencer, Marketing Manager at Tap Social Brewery in Oxford, England. Before relocating to the UK, was based in Singapore, where he spent more than a decade as a freelance writer and editor before becoming brand director for Ren Min, an independent brewery based out of Singapore's famed Hawker Centres. Brian joined Tap Social as its marketing manager in 2022. You might have noticed a particular logo on beer cans and on taps over the last 18 months. The Indie Beer Campaign, launched by the Society of Independent Brewers and Associates in October 2024, is now gaining momentum across the country. with supermarket, and tap-brew marketing visible wherever you find your beer made by a certified independent brewery. Keeping beer independent is so important for smaller breweries as draft bar infrastructure is becoming harder to access as international macro breweries gain more of a hold in pubs, bars and restaurants across the country. But there are reasons to be optimistic. The campaign is seeing more breweries signing up every week with Consumer Group Camera offering some excellent comm support across traditional and social media platforms raise awareness about exactly who makes the beer we drink. So we're leaving series one of First Draft on a hopeful note. As Brian says in the recording, you can't solve all the world's problems, but you can certainly do your bit. If you've been listening to the series so far, thank you for joining me. Head over to Instagram and search for Eliza drinks beer to see what else I'm up to before series two launches over the winter. But for now, here's Brian Spencer.

Brian: going back in terms of like craft beer and that kind of thing, my earliest kind of memory of that, was going to university, which I I went to university at a a small what was a small college back then called Middle Tennessee State University. And I remember going into our local kind of supermarket and they had Rogue Ale's dead guy in there. And I just was like, Well, what's this cool bottle? Like what you know, this is different than our, you know, Southpaw lager, whatever it was we were drinking at in university. and that beer, which I didn't really like, you know, after several years, after I kind of s kind of started drinking beer, it's not really my style, but it opened up my eyes to the fact that beer can be something that's more interesting, it doesn't have to just be your kind of standard everyday malt liquor or or lager. And that kind of started me on the quote unquote journey in terms of discovering beer. fast forward many, many years, before I joined Tap Social, I was a freelance journalist for probably ten, eleven, twelve years, strictly freelancing, based in Asia. I was mostly covering travel and beer. you know, the craft beer scene, and again to use the the term craft beer. was really exploding when I moved to Singapore, which was about twenty twelve and b you know a little bit before that too. and I just found so many great places, cool, unique places serving unique beers in in really kind of fun settings. And and there was this kind of you know, Asia the Asian indie beer market is behind, right? It's behind the West. and so it was still kind of on its It still it kind of isn't its it's nascency period. and for me I just found that the places that served interesting beer and and kind of that culture was alive and well and really exciting. And I just found that these places were gateways in these new destinations that I was, you know, traveling to Japan and Thailand, Vietnam and and even Singapore, South Korea. these were places that were gateways to other great things about those cities. So whether it's just meeting, you know, kind of like minded people who would send me towards a a cool restaurant or another cool bar or whatever it might be, I found that and it's always been like that. Even even in London back in the day when I started traveling to London in in the O's. I think craft beer is and and and it's best still still is, a gateway to cool aspects of a city, you know what I mean?

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's a really nice point. And actually, I was just thinking when you were talking there, one of the things that's nice about working in the beer industry is I feel like we've all got this kind of definitely passion. And sometimes we talk about the passion tax and how, you know, when you get really into beer and you're talking to a consumer and talk to someone else, and they just don't quite have that same, like interest in it. And

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth: I think that's an interesting topic with in beer. And it's kind of what I wanted to talk about today is beer important to people? Like, why should anybody care about whether a beer is independent? What do you think?

Brian: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And and that's something that I think you and I, and now that I'm you in the in the industry, it's something we're everyone's constantly grappling with, as you say. because the things have just changed. And it seems like it's kind of just changed, it kind of was slowly changing, changing, changing, and all of a sudden it's just like, wow, we're fighting this battle again, you know. think independence matters. I mean, you know, it's it's it's fun, it's interesting to me that. Whereas there seems to be this kind of groundswell of support for independent business in general, right? Especially in the UK, I think that rightfully so, independent business is championed. I think that consumers want to feel like they're spending their money in places that are supporting good things. As much as possible. I mean, we're all victim to to s to convenience. I mean, it's just the way of modern life. but I think that, you know, people support independent business. I don't think there's anything People, you know, as much as possible will choose that if they can, if there's a a choice between a independent and a and a you know big conglomerate. But however, it doesn't seem like that has extended to beer as much right now. It you know, it it's and I don't know if it's a cost thing or you know, or it's maybe the trickery that the the beaver towns and the the others of the world are have kind of pulled over our our eyes. It just seems like that that groundswell of support for like that craft beer used to have, like, I'm I'm supporting this, it doesn't seem like that's there anymore. And and I I sometimes wonder if some of that's the brew dog effect. And I I don't wanna talk about brew brew dog at length. But I wonder if you know, some of those kind of early pioneers of craft and they've kind of fizzled out and they've kind of shown a different side that was maybe not, you know, it hasn't really worked out like how this kind of It was envisioned. I wonder if that's had an effect on people's enthusiasm for beer and and independent beer and craft beer. I wonder or it might be just maybe it's just oversaturated. I don't know. What do you think?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think it's a fair point. I mean, I'm sort of mid 30s now I first started drinking, I'm gonna say this with like air quotes craft beer kind of back in the early,

Brian: Right.

Elizabeth: I guess when I've entered the workforce. So it's kind of like a very millennial thing to, I feel like a lot of our customers are kind of our kind of age, like me and Nick are both kind of mid 30s. We care a lot about what we're doing, obviously, because it's our business. But then I just kind of feel like in terms of hospitality, You know, we were out kind of in our local city center over the weekend and the pubs are just absolutely dead. And most of these pubs are the ones who have the Brixton, they have the Carling, they have the, you know, they just have those macro keg lines. And you kind of think surely if you're running a hospitality business and people aren't coming out, the best

Brian: Mm.

Elizabeth: thing to do to address that is I guess, getting a better beer selection, but it just doesn't seem to be

Brian: Yeah.

Elizabeth: the way the trade is going at the minute.

Brian: Mm. It's weird. It's a weird one. And I also wonder there's those two aspects, right? There's there's the trade and and maybe not, as you say, pivoting towards you know, something that's maybe just trying something different. If it's not working, you know, trying something different. And then there's the also the the the consumer aspect where, you know, I mean, craft got this kind of and maybe it still has that stigma. Like right now, I you I always hear about how younger generation like Gen Z or, you know, whatever it might be, like they they see IPA and they just close their eyes, they don't want to hear about it anymore. And I wonder if it's a product of, you know, there's been a lot of jokes and there's still going on about when you walk into a tap room and there's thirty beers up there and and you don't know what to get and you feel intimidated. I wonder if it's kind of post variety fatigue, you know what I mean? Like I I I don't I don't know. I I it's it's it's an interesting one. And we're all trying to get to the bottom of it, aren't we?

Elizabeth: So this is a good segue into talking about TapSocial. it began as a social enterprise that helps improve the outcomes for prisoners and prison leavers through employment training and advocacy. me a bit about how the company started, how it's evolved since it launched in 2017.

Brian: Yeah, so we're the rare company that started with a purpose before product. so we are co-founded by sisters Amy and Tess Taylor, and Amy's partner Paul. they all came to Tap Social with backgrounds in criminal justice and not a single other than some hospitality, you know, experience serving beer, no beer industry experience. So Amy was working at the MOJ, Ministry of Justice. Tess had worked in Canada with troubled youths in trying to get their sentences overturned from when they were much younger and Paul is and was an independent criminal barrister. and so I think that they just had this, you know, to make a long story short, they were working with people coming f through the prison system right at the very end, right? And so they're on their way out back into the streets. And they just time and time again were seeing the lack of support and the kind of, you know, vicious kind of cycle of reoffending that was about to happen, right? So that the reoffending rate in the UK Within a year is it fluctuates, but it's around 50 to 60 percent on any given year, which cost taxpayers something insane, billions of pounds a year, just on reoffending. and they were just kind of decided: look, how can we intervene in this process? How can we, help people turn their lives around essentially? How what can we do to our little bit? And and that's where things start, right? Like you you can't solve all the world's problems right away, but how can we do our little bit? Get this momentum, start this conversation. And so that's where Tap Social came in. So they wanted to help a lot of people in prison, they as I say, they're not prepared for life after. They're not given any training. Some of them don't have backgrounds where they had you know, proper education. and so the whole concept was let's you know work with prisons to increase adaptation of the Release on a temporary license program, which is when a day release. So someone will come out during the day, work just like you and I, and then they go back. and so that's how it came. And so why beer? So I think that again to go back to what we were talking about earlier and and how craft beer and and independent beer was a gateway for good things. I think you know, beer, you know, especially craft beer. you know, back in the day when we started, has this reputation for being open minded, having attracting a crowd that is open to maybe slightly more progressive ideals, not that every brewery is progressive, but I think that in general, you know, there's there's an understanding of of of beer being a a a good kind of product to kind of put this kind of mission in the back of. and so away they went. they hired Jason who was our head brewer for a long time up until last year. it's been onwards and upwards from then, lots of bumps and and and fit and starts. It's not been smooth sailing. But you know, here we are today, ten years later, we're celebrating our tenth birthday in November.

Elizabeth: That's a really exciting year then for you. 10 years, 10 years, suppose in a brewery terms as well is, you know, you consider quite a few of the, breweries that launched in like 2014 to 2016. They are all kind of turning 10 and it just feels like such an incredible achievement given the hospitality landscape, given COVID. Just to be here and still, you know, thriving and you have a bakery as well now.

Brian: We do, yeah, we have a bakery, proof social bakehouse. which was profiled on Telegraph is one of the best in the UK, which is like a big thing for us. but you're right, those ten years, there's all these ten year anniversaries coming up, our friends have pretty decent beer, also ten years. and there's so many, I think gosh, there's so many. I I mean one of this than all. but it is not a day goes by, we're not grateful for the support. I mean it's it's tough, as you say. It is tough. And the fact that we have stuck it out and and improved our beer slowly but steadily. You know, it's not like no one's gonna pretend here that we came out guns blazing and we're a hype brewery. I mean we there's a lot of there's a learning curve, right? and I think that we're in a good place right now. we've learned a lot and and improved our processes and and honed our beers and and all those things. But we're not here without our community. I mean that's that's just you know, for all the growth that we've had kind of outside of Oxfordshire, it's it's all about the local community for us.

Elizabeth: So Oxford have really got behind you and the ethos behind the brand from day one.

Brian: Pretty much. And I think, you know, when we launched, and this before I've been with Hap for about four years, but you know, this was before my time. But when we launched, it was one of those things where I was out in this kind of industrial state where I'm talking to you now, kind of outside of Central Oxford, nothing out here back then. And, you know, here's these kids, you know, Amy and Tess and Paul were, you know, in their twenties, they're launching this thing, they're gonna work with people from prison, right? And so you'd think that there'd be a a level of know, derision about about this thing. And the the first article that was written about Tap Social was in our local paper, the Oxford Mail. And they it was a good article. of course the comments were skeptical and there's one famous one that called like the Bleeding Heart Numb Skulls will be closed in a year. You know? and they adopted that term. They they owned it. They took it on. They released a series of sour beers they called the Bleeding Heart and Numb Skulls series and you know, that has been one of the few times that the community, you know, has kind of, given us flack. We have by large, you know, ninety five percent had nothing but support from people out here.

Elizabeth: It sounds a little bit like pretty decent one-star review for the, I could get better at Tesco for a quid, which is now one of the top 50 beers in the country. So, you know, good for them getting over that.

Brian: Yeah yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth: the Indie Beer Campaign launched about 18 months ago. How did you first get involved with that with Ciba and how has it kind of supported you and your production goals over the last year and a half.

Brian: Well, that's a great question. I you know, w when it when it went out and they started launching it, I was personally speaking somewhat skeptical. it almost feels like you're pushing a boulder up a hill, right? Like you've you've already established this craft beer, like this is a thing is a you know, craft beer is thing, right? Independent beer and changing the whole branding of like a whole kind of industry seemed like a big task. To their credit and Siva's credit, I I think they've done an incredible job ramming it through and and beating the drum and and being consistent with the messaging. and it's just something that, you know, we wanted to get on board with. And so we reached out to Siva right when it launched, Hey, anything we can do to support this, please count us in. we've just seen and and and sure you've seen the same thing, one brewery after another has gotten on board. And it's one of those things again where the more people who are shouting the same thing, the more effective it is, right? and so when the campaign l announced that Waitros was coming on to support that campaign, I mean that's a great, you know, not just credit to Weightros for jumping on that bandwagon. that's a pretty big retailer for s for someone to t to pick up that whole campaign. But good on Indybeer for for getting that in there. I mean that's just such great coverage and such great leverage to take out into into the country and and to Consumers at large. So we launched at Weitros last year. it's been huge, on our production. I'm I'm not gonna lie, again, as you as we talked about the kind of difficulties that independent breweries have getting on taps and things like that, and you know, independent kind of beer shops dwindling or being extremely selective, and you know, that's their choice. you only have so many distributions. distribution outlets and you know I think supermarkets sometimes get you know mixed reviews in terms of industry, experience, but we've had nothing and I just say this a hundred percent genuinely, we've had such a positive experience working with Waitros as our first kind of national retail launch. and the fact that they're getting on board with the Indy Bear campaign makes it even sweeter.

Elizabeth: One of the things that we were told when we were sort of setting up the brewery was to avoid supermarkets at all costs. But do you think that's

Brian: Nice.

Elizabeth: kind of changing now? Do you think it's actually, as long as you've got the right accreditations? and the right attitude and kind of getting the right support. Do you think a supermarket actually, given the number of guidelines in the country, do you think actually a supermarket can be pretty beneficial to an independent brewery?

Brian: Well, speaking to us, it can be. you know, we, you know, again, like this is our tenth year and we've just launched in retail in year nine essentially and for various reasons, including, you know, again, like our beer quality has slowly but steadily improved and I think now it's in a good spot. We're not we're not a hype brewery. It's not like we're putting out these, hype untapped beers or anything, but I think we make very good, well balanced, approachable beer. but in terms of the supermarkets, I I I think so. Again, like There's only so many places you can sell your beer, right? And if it makes business sense, and for us it does, and if you have a good partner, that's the other thing. we now are very fortunate to be working with three supermarkets on a regional and and national level. And we've had discussions with other ones and for various reasons we've not done those. Not that there we won't or that there's anything wrong with the other ones. It's just it has to be right for your business. And for us It it's it's been very challenging, I will say that. I mean our production and our packaging, we package everything by hand. We don't have a super fancy canning machine, we don't have a you know, we have to pack all of our boxes by hand. So it's it's definitely had an impact on our business in terms of our day to day production. But on the on the other side of that, the good thing is it's helped create more jobs for us. And the more jobs that we can create, it's more opportunities we have to work with people from prison and to grow our business and get that message out there. So, you know, to go back to our our mission of working with people from prison, the whole thing is is is for us. We're still a small business. We're extremely small business in the grand scheme of things. And so what we want to do is use this platform of our beer to encourage not just to show other people what we're doing. It's not it's not just that. It's very much to hopefully try and show other businesses that what we do, they can do too. I mean the impact of just on people's lives and of re-offending and all these things of just if you had one percent of your workforce, someone from who came from the prison side would make a massive, massive impact on prison crowding and and communities. I mean, I just there's so many different benefits. and so when we're in these supermarkets and we're reaching out to more people and more people, you never know who's buying a can of yours. It could be a CEO, it could be anybody. And if they see that and they're they they just ideas jogging their brain and they follow it up and they look into that and they say, you know what? This is pretty cool. We can do that too then yeah, I mean that that really works for us and and that's that's a that's been a very positive thing for us.

Elizabeth: So where can people find your beer either in the Oxfordshire area or beyond?

Brian: So we have three venues here in Oxford that are the best place to get all our full range of beer. We're opening a new venue next month in Ditcot at Milton Park, which is one of the biggest science parks in the UK. It'll be our first purpose-built facility, which we're both excited and terrified of. and so those are those are always the best places to get our full range. But we are in Now more than 250 way chose supermarkets across the country. we launched two of our beers, both of which won Great Taste Awards. we launched just recently, end of last month, into eighty co op home county supermarkets. That's two of our beers, Time Better Spent, which is our best selling IPA. And Jobsworth, which is a gluten-free session pale. And we also launched in select Whole Foods Markets in London, which has been also a really positive experience. So you know, it's been a big year of growth for us, honestly. and we want to continue to do it as sustainably as possible. It's not just all in, we'll sign a contract on any anything that's put in front of us. It has to be done in a sustainable way, and so far so.

Elizabeth Townsend: That's it for series one of First Draft. Once again, thanks so much for joining me and I hope to see you again for series two very soon.