Elizabeth Townsend: Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer over on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. My guest today is Amelie Tassin, founder of Women in Beer and Tipple Marketing, an all-round industry icon. Many thanks to Cathy, Sarah, Tiphane, Betty and Clare for wrapping up warm and contributing to our tankside discussion International Women's Collaboration Brew Day back in January. That's it from me this week. Next week I'll be chatting to Neil Walker from SIBA and Brian Spencer from Tap Social Brewery in Oxford about the Indie Beer campaign, so make sure you subscribe for a brand new episode every Wednesday. Thank you to Amélie And now we're heading over to the Isle of Man. But first, here's Amelie to tell us more about how it all began. in Slovakia where I come from everybody kind of drinks beer not as gendered drink so ⁓ my grandma would drink beer remember going with my parents when we were on holidays they would always get beer and I would get something and they obviously I was nosy and I wanted to get a taste and then I was stealing their foam of the beer so was putting my fingers in their foam and licking them me and my sister were calling it a beer ice cream With over 20 years of experience in strategy, business management, marketing, brand development and events, Amelie is a true powerhouse in the beer industry and a passionate advocate for diversity and inclusion in beer. then I could drink legally so long. I probably started drinking in, well, seriously in university and the whole student thing, a pub crawl and how much can you get down your neck and cheapest the amount of time, preferably cheap as possible. think Liverpool used to a pub crawl called the Smith Down 10 and you used to go on Smith Down Road and bring a pint in every pub and it was, yeah, yeah, very messy. But then you start to realise, actually, I'm not really sure if I like. all the tastes of beer. particularly there was a gender thing because when then I went home or if I went out somewhere, particularly when I first met my husband, he's from the northeast. And I'm not saying a stereotypical thing, but there is definitely a gender thing there because you go to a pub as a woman in the northeast or in those days anyway. I sound so old. ⁓ you ask for a pint, they would look at you and like, no. A lady will always have a schooner glass, know, especially if you're drinking Newcastle Brown Ale She coordinates the Women in Beer Awards, which this year take place in Manchester, alongside the Women in Beer Festival. In 2025, she was appointed Diversity and Inclusivity Champion at the Brewers' Choice Awards and continues to give women and non-binary applicants access to education, training and networking through the Women in Beer Mentorship Scheme, of which I was a very grateful recipient back in 2023. In this special extended episode, Later on we'll be hearing from the attendees of my International Women's Collaboration Brew Day, who back in January took part in a brew day at Kerroo and chatted about why accessibility and community are so important in beer.

Amélie Tassin: yeah, ⁓ it was, it was a bit of a, a weird moment in my life. ⁓ had quit my job recently, decided to set up a company, marketing business. ⁓

Elizabeth Townsend: you're supposed to have a schooner not a pint glass. So I'll be talking 20, 30 years ago. ⁓ did used to get funny looks drinking a pint. But you think, well, I'm not queuing up, especially if you've got a big bar where there's a 10 deep at the bar, I'm not queuing up to drink half a pint. And yeah, I'll be back there in two minutes. Do you think the Ladette culture has changed?

Amélie Tassin: ⁓ in the spirits industry and in France, because at the time there was quite a lot of craft distilleries that were coming up France and the sector was like quite interesting ⁓ I really wanted to work in that. needed to speak English for work ⁓ and my English was very good so I decided

Elizabeth Townsend: whether or not are allowed to drink. Yeah, there was actually a rule with other types of glass you had that a schooner, said. Because in France, was definitely, it's definitely more of a man to drink beer than women would wine, mostly. ⁓ Even anyone drink beer and would drink beer, most women wouldn't drink ⁓ beer, especially like beers. ⁓ And I think started drinking beer because like the group of friends I had, we had this one Irish pub ⁓

Amélie Tassin: because I had, well, basically a few months ahead of me to, before starting the company, go to the UK, do an English school, like go, like 9 to 5 English school and be in immersion for a few months and come back with a better English, like a workable, I would say English. And I had the choice between.

Elizabeth Townsend: French version of a Irish pub. But they'd have nice beers. And we'd go there and we'd try the different beers and they had new ones coming in and we were friends with the owner. So he'd let us know when he had a new beer and sometimes we'd stay later. And it was all kind of just really nice and yeah, nice people to be with. But there wasn't many women in the pub. It's a feeling when you feel like you're kind of everybody's looking at you when it happens sometimes when, like

Amélie Tassin: three ⁓ Dublin, London and Edinburgh. Dublin and London were too expensive for me, couldn't afford it. And Edinburgh, did ⁓ Edinburgh already a little bit. I ⁓ Scotland, so that was making sense for me. ⁓ that's how I moved to Edinburgh. And ⁓ a few months,

Elizabeth Townsend: I enter and all these old guys just look at me, what are you doing? Do you think it's specific to here where we are on the Isle of Man or do think it's a British thing versus European thing? Do think there's more of an attitude of like, well, women don't drink beer I think it's that that is quite British or I think it's not from where I'm from. I think it's a British, I think it is and it's a generational thing. I think there is a lot of like my mother's generation, my father-in-law and things like that, he always used to look a bit sideways. If he was, if we were in a pub and he wouldn't, he would never let me.

Amélie Tassin: I decided I didn't want it to come back to my life in Paris. And I was quite keen to start something in Scotland. So I never, I basically never left. January 2018, the first thing I've done in Edinburgh was actually going to a meetup that was organized by someone who's

Elizabeth Townsend: my father-in-law would never let me go to the bar. And there are still, there were a couple of working men's clubs, particularly in the Northeast, where the beer is very cheap, so that's great, but they won't let you, or in those days, wouldn't let a woman go to the bar and order drinks. Was that a rule? Was it written some clubs were, the way, example, the women were allowed in the lounge, but not in the bar.

Amélie Tassin: running the meetup, the whiskey meetup group in Edinburgh. was also a bit of an inspiration behind Women in Beer behind the group, basically, because Arthur was fantastic. didn't know meetup at the time, the application app meetup. Arthur was fantastic, children, people. I had no network, no friends.

Elizabeth Townsend: or you'd be allowed in the concert room, not in the bar, and you couldn't go to the and buy a drink. And at first, you see this, I don't know if it's an age thing, as I've matured, when I was still at university, I was like, that's ridiculous, I have that. And then I figured it out, I went, do you know what, go on dear, off you go, you go and buy my drink, you pay, I'll drink. Still, if it's a private club, a private members club, so, they still have that a bit in London, don't they, as well with the post clubs, but.

Amélie Tassin: or barely any ⁓ when I moved and I was like, wow, that is a fantastic app and would be such a good idea to do something with beer. And I was very much encouraged by the woman who was running the whiskey group at the time and was saying, ⁓ you should do this, you should do that. ⁓ was a few women in beer group at the time in the UK, but nothing in Edinburgh. So, ⁓ let's do

Elizabeth Townsend: some of the working men's clubs used to be like that as well because it was a membership and it was a private thing. It's not a public. So obviously a public bar, you've got to, it's equality now, it all comes in. It is interesting because we talk a lot about kind of safe spaces for women to be in, especially with the bars to be in because you can think of a traditional male space and you think about maybe the conversations that are happening, the attitudes towards a marginalized community, shall I say. It's much more important now, think, for women to have that.

Amélie Tassin: That's how women in beer was born.

Elizabeth Townsend: equalizer when it comes to beer. I think beer is an equalizer. think it's something everyone can enjoy in. And that's the way we kind of approach our beer at Kerroo is making sure that it's accessible to everybody. So maybe down our business, making sure that the beer that we're offering is the range of beer. It's not just all cask ale. Because I think a lot of places you go, they put women off. And I remember raising this on, I think I said it on like a forum or Instagram or something about how if you go into a traditional pub, Who were the first you got involved the Where did you find them?

Amélie Tassin: Well, on the app Meetup, basically we set up the group there with my friend Justine who was running the Whiskey group. like a few first Meetup were four, Justine and me and two other women that had basically came because they have seen the group on Meetup. after that we grew a little bit more, a little bit more and ended up just like.

Elizabeth Townsend: where we live and it's all just the same brown ale. That immediately puts some women off and somebody said, yeah, but cask beer is great. Like, and I'm like, that's not the point though. Cause the conversation we had was that sours, Clare got you into beer ⁓ your experience is the same as mine where you start with drinking the fruited sours that sort of sweeter beers. And then that's your gateway into drinking the IPAs, drinking the cask ale. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Is that your experience of it? Yes, definitely. ⁓

Amélie Tassin: Yeah, like moving to Facebook at some point because MeetUp was is expensive and wanted to reach also different kind of people, more industry focus. So the was some at some points and now I think have like more than 700 people on the Facebook group, plus probably a hundred people on the mailing list. it has grown a bit.

Elizabeth Townsend: don't particularly like the lager-y taste. So there very few lagers that I will choose to drink. And you talk about temperature, don't you? So you want it to be really cold, which tends to stop as much of that flavour coming through. So the more you heat the beer up, the more of those kind of malty flavours come through. Yeah. So when I used to think that my choices in a pub would be bitter or lager that was the wrong temperature or a stout or something, I'd be like, well, I don't like any of those. ⁓ It's amazing. It has grown to include many people, including me, which is very exciting. how you find the beer landscape in Edinburgh compared to Paris when you moved over? 2018, tell me a bit about what kind of beer was available at that time. What breweries were popping up in Edinburgh?

Amélie Tassin: So when I moved to Edinburgh ⁓ there was obviously Pilot. Pilot Beer was the star, the kid that was running the town at that point. Very much with reason. ⁓ Campervan was there as well. ⁓ had, yeah, closed border There was a few ⁓ really interesting, well, I thought really interesting brewery.

Elizabeth Townsend: Finding a range of different beers that I did like was quite a challenge. So that stops you from going in a pub and drinking beers, it? If there's nothing available that you want to drink. Yeah, are definitely times where I'll be like, which pub? Which one? Which one? Is it that one? Yeah. Actually, I remember this one thing. I went with my boyfriend and his friend into The Queens on the prom in Douglas and they ordered lagers and I ordered bitter. And when the lady brought it...

Amélie Tassin: The scene was like a bit, even if Scotland's always been a bit kind of behind the English scene, I would say. there was like really interesting and much more than ⁓ what we had in France at the time. obviously I had a background in the industry ⁓ because I had... ⁓

Elizabeth Townsend: She made this kind of joke like the boys are new and it was quite interesting because Like first of all, yeah weird, but also in slovakia the dark lagers were seen more feminine because they are a bit sweeter you drink whatever the other people have have so if you go to a they wouldn't have so many wines for wine you go to a winery or wine. Also everybody usually made own so you would it on like family ⁓

Amélie Tassin: I had the opportunity to co-run a bottle shop in Paris for four ⁓ for 10 years at the time. the maturity of the scene in the UK was nothing, was much more in advance, sorry, ⁓ compared to the scene in France,

Elizabeth Townsend: birthday, Christmas, and so you would have your own wine. wine. wouldn't have a beer because you would have to go buy it or... ⁓ then everybody drinks whatever there is. So if you go to a pub, everybody drinks whatever there is. If everybody's having wine, then everybody's having wine. It's quite interesting then that what could be considered a more of a girly beer, like a woman's beer, is completely different depending on country. It really makes the point of a how made up it is Like how kind of artificial and just it has no... you studied an MBA in global business management. were previously working in a corporate environment when you were working in France. I had a great conversation with Catherine Webber from Attic and Lucy Stevens, who founded Closet Brewing in Edinburgh. And both of them, they came from corporate roles and found that their transferable skills were really, really important when they're thinking about their current careers in the beer industry. How do you think your previous experience has helped shape your career in recent years, particularly basis in anything and kind of real. From the historical point of view, like you were saying, how about the men take it over? it was probably the women that brewed in the beginning. Well, one of the ways how women actually were allowed to make income, often the ale houses, women just ran them from their kitchen and they brewed the beer. when founding your own marketing agency.

Amélie Tassin: Oh, 100%. So it's like, in, in addition to that, that, that shop that I was involved with, like, I was at the time I having a, I had a day job in a, a bank and in a big retail bank in France, I was doing marketing, a lot of project management and it is definitely transferable. it's like all the

Elizabeth Townsend: And if you were a widow or some male thing, that was the only way you could actually support your family. One of the things that is really interesting about the Isle of Man is that it feels like, this is speaking as someone who's a brewery owner, it feels like the Isle of Man is quite far behind still. Do you think that's true in terms of the attitude towards women drinking beer? I've recently come to the island, I haven't been here for a really long time.

Amélie Tassin: the project management that I was doing at the time, but it's like big budgets, like million euros budget. had definitely helped me like running project now and the company. basically event management, if you look at it. It has definitely give me like some like vigour and some very good habits.

Elizabeth Townsend: I keep, that's the general thing I'm hearing from the Isle of Man is that it's really backwards, everything is just slow and change comes really Slow, it's not up to date with the world, but at the same time, just seems extremely open-minded. It's like everyone's pushing you to just be yourself, be happy with however weird you are. There are some things that are a bit backward, but I also think there's a bit about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater so when we change things, it's like, actually, well, it's gotta be for the better, otherwise why do it? I also feel like, as a teenager,

Amélie Tassin: on the way you like running projects and running events and especially like bigger events like like with your people as well. It has ⁓ ⁓ the fact that that I had that MBA as well as the opportunity to to to go back to uni and and get that MBA get me like a bit of a strategy mindset that definitely helped me whilst some of our clients had people obviously.

Elizabeth Townsend: sort of 18 to 25 when we were drinking beer on the island. Man, we drank a lot of like Foster's Lager back then. It was like the late... That age you drink anything? That is true, yeah. I never felt like anybody really judged me for drinking beer on the island. And I think that's what we've seen running this business as well. We would never assume anything about anybody and what they'd understand. Yeah. I think that is a Manx thing. I think you can be yourself on the island. It's more than you couldn't. can elsewhere.

Amélie Tassin: but also on the way and like in the way of setting up the company and the vision behind the company that I had as well. So it has definitely been key for that. I ⁓ think I would not have done that ⁓ if I had not been through first of all, like the corporate world and also that MBA.

Elizabeth Townsend: But the point about the fosters though, that's a good point to raise because we're smaller and obviously we've got certain breweries running certain pubs. So if you go to the bar and you've got like Carling and you've got fosters, you've got Madri, you've got whatever, and then you kind of think, do I want a drink? My introduction to drinking beer was that my dad was an avid home brewer and had it under the stairs, the cup of the stairs. you find jump from working for a big corporate team to working for yourself? I that's something that I've personally been through as well, so I understand it. But how could you explain that to listeners? ⁓ What was process like for you? And I used to go and nick a little glass. Let's test it. How did you get that with the tape? I just go and have a little taste to see what What was that? I used to brew in batches. I think there's a thing there you like in the 80s. Yeah, you forget the boxes. think you have a brew or something you used to be able to get like. And I used to do wine making as well, but I was not really... I was interested in that.

Amélie Tassin: It was a bit of a jump. I mean, it was not completely new for me because yeah, well, I had that shop when my ex husband for quite a long time. So I had touched to the entrepreneurial kind of life and mindset. So I had already that experience a little bit. But when you end up just like, yeah, but in a new country and with no network effectively.

Elizabeth Townsend: But he'd have one that he was like drinking and I'd just go and have a look at that. So I don't know he had the taste for it. Yeah, even though I'm a beer drinker, I kind of always have been. But sometimes I go to the pub and I think I am not too sure what I want to drink because I'm not a big Carling fan. I do drink lager. I don't have a problem with lager, but I don't really like Madri that much. It's not really what I'd want to drink. With food, for example, I would get wine often. When we go to a pub.

Amélie Tassin: and in a new language and no kind of backup because well the job was done like I had left so ⁓ it's a bit like something a little crazy I think I really want I always seen myself as like setting up my company I was ⁓ not always handling well ⁓ having to report your boss.

Elizabeth Townsend: It's more like the action, like going for a beer is you go with your mates to a... You don't go like to have wine, you go for a pint, you know? You don't say, it's not like an expression you go for, And that's why it's a problem where, you know, pubs are closing. think in the last few days, there's a couple more in the Isle of Man that have closed and they reopen at some point, maybe, but we don't know. And especially if it's like a rural pub where that's the only pub in that...

Amélie Tassin: So I think it was always like a natural transition for me to at some point go freelance and then set up a company. Yeah, I feel like much more in like phase with what I am and what I want to do when I work for myself physically.

Elizabeth Townsend: part of the Isle of Man, that's a real shame because that's that community hub that's now gone, nobody's gonna bring it back You mentioned before we started recording that you're recruiting for a new member of your team at the minute. how do you go about finding the right people to work with you? What sorts of things are you looking for in a team member?

Amélie Tassin: I think it's all about sharing the same value. We are very proud as people of values of inclusivity, creativity and ⁓ community as well, the support that we give to small business. we really want to find someone that share those values. ⁓ been the same to be fair when I started working with Daisy. mean, Daisy and I, we've known each other since I moved to the UK. ⁓ working in the same accountant same company that when I just moved ⁓ to Edinburgh. ⁓ we've from ⁓ time time together. And when it was the time for me to get someone ⁓ it was a natural choice because I know she shares the same values as me and we have the same way of working. ⁓ So it's very much, I think, the most important. Beer you can learn, marketing you can learn, but there is that kind of, yeah, like who you are and how you want to work. That is something that you can't rely on.

Elizabeth Townsend: So back to late last year in 2025, you won the diversity and inclusivity champion award at the Brewers Choice Awards, which was extremely well deserved. Everyone very happy for you that you won that. Why do think diversity is so important in beer? What barriers do you think exist for women and non-binary people in this industry? And why is it so important for you to champion that?

Amélie Tassin: Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you very much. was very, very happy to receive that award as well. was quite unexpected to be fair because I had like a very, the competition was quite high in the shortlist. So I was very, very surprised and, also very, happy to have been chosen. Yeah, I think that inclusivity is more than... I think it's more than just like a trendy word or trendy thing. like, oh yeah, it's just like people want to be inclusive and everything. And in the beer industry, especially, or in male-dominated industry, it's often a question of safety for people. Women and non-binary folks are treated differently. We know that in the industry, and they are seen as not as legitimate as men. is a cause of bullying, harassment and sometimes also sexual harassment. So it is, when you look at it, very much a question of safety for worker. And that's why I wanted to be involved in that and just I've seen so many people being ⁓ broken by the industry for those reasons. ⁓ Myself, being like, receiving the like, bullying and harassment and ⁓ day to day job and ⁓ ⁓ that should not happen. ⁓ ⁓ should protect the women and the non-binary folks that work in the industry and we should be ⁓ on an equal basis to avoid those problems.

Elizabeth Townsend: I was one of the recipients of your mentorship program through Women in Beer and it's only my personal experience, but I just feel so supported by the network that you've created, along with, you know, all the amazing people who are involved in Women in Beer, whether they're mentors or, other mentees as well. It's been incredible getting to know them over the last couple of years. And there's also the International Women's Collaboration Brew Days. So can you tell me a bit about Moonwake ⁓ Women in Beer and Mother Tongue collaboration you did this year and released? it's so important to have these kind of open brew days where people can come along and see actually what happens and as you said, in a ⁓ safe space and in a safe be able to ask those questions and... kind of see themselves, I guess, in the industry.

Amélie Tassin: Yeah, so it was a collab actually. It's Mother Tongue, Moonwake, Women in Beer and the Society that are based in Glasgow. So the two Women in Beer group ⁓ Scotland. ⁓ We were ⁓ as important, like Women in Beer always took part in an international women collaboration really since basically the of the ⁓ It is... something that we really want to support because it is a window for people that are not in the industry on what it is, what's the community of the beer industry and it is important to raise awareness about diversity issue in the industry but also giving the opportunity to women that are either they start a career in the industry or they don't know or they want to, they're interested to, to come and join a group and learn and network. It is very important, I think, to create those occasions of networking and also of learning as well. So we definitely do international collaboration every day, but we also do all Brewery Day during the year because it's great to have that in March but we also there the rest of the year. So we try to do Brewery Day regularly through the year to give again those opportunities of networking and learning to as many people as we can and yeah it's something that's always been very important.

Elizabeth Townsend: back to Women and Beer for a second. You founded that in 2018, originally as a social group after you moved to Scotland. The group now has a festival, a mentorship scheme, which is now in its, is it fourth year now? and ceremony which the first awards was last year and the next one is going to be later this year again.

Amélie Tassin: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. ⁓ It's going to be in October. It's going to be the, well, I can tell you exactly the date. It is going to be the 20th of October in Manchester. for the first time, it's going to be at the same time of the Women in Beer Festival because Women in Beer Festival, organize it every two years. ⁓ So it is coming ⁓ this as well at the same ⁓ time. So it's very exciting and the first time in Manchester as well.

Elizabeth Townsend: That is exciting. Manchester is a fantastic city for beer. what does take to organise a festival of that scale?

Amélie Tassin: A lot of time. A lot of time and energy obviously. I mean, I'm lucky that we organize also just like I have the help of Tipple of the company, to help me organize the winning the award and festival as well. So that is good. But yeah, it's a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of... lot of like time trying to find sponsors as well trying to find support those events obviously ⁓ costing money ⁓ but ⁓ great ⁓ to be able to offer those opportunities of learning and networking ⁓ as many people as we can. I think it's going to be the biggest probably this year the biggest like opportunity of networking and learning that we've seen in the UK. ⁓ a week, an entire week of events. So that's, that's okay. Much looking forward to that.

Elizabeth Townsend: I'm looking forward to it too, I'll be there.

Amélie Tassin: I hope so.

Elizabeth Townsend: Absolutely, I've got it in my diary already. I've been very organised. Final kind of question, what breweries or beers do you recommend at the minute? Who's caught your eye?

Amélie Tassin: That's great. huh, good question. I'm not saying that because they are clients, but because they do absolutely amazing thing. ⁓ But First and Last Brewery and the, the North East ⁓ they do ⁓ really beer And it's ⁓ all I do the, the, the, fact that are ⁓ all unique and limited edition when they're gone, they're gone everything they do, ⁓ they do with foraging a lot and the beer will never have the same taste because obviously the plants and the flowers and the fruits that they use gonna change. It's gonna evolve through time and I quite like the philosophy of something that is completely the moment.