Elizabeth Townsend: Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer over on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. That's all from First Draught this week. Thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe on your chosen podcast platform for a brand new episode every Wednesday morning.

Sophie: So come Hastings in East Sussex and I spent a of my time in the Old Town and was part of like bonfires, loads of different events such as in the Green and a lot of people used drink a lot of beer, especially Harvey's. So I saw a lot of Harvey's growing up.

Elizabeth Townsend: In today's episode, I'm joined by two of the most exciting young female brewers in Britain, Sophie Ashdown and Eloise Nicholson Phillips. Sophie Ashdown has built her career from packaging operative to senior brewer at Buxton Brewery in the Peak District. She has hosted an International Women's Collaboration Brew Day at Buxton for the last four years and is passionate about educating and inspiring women to drink more beer. For this year's release, Sophie helped create a beer in honour of mathematician Katherine Johnson.

Sophie: and being And then I moved up to Buxton about seven years ago. my first bit into beer was at the Tap House at Buxton Brewery. That's when I started to start tasting beers, even though I didn't like it or had any And that kind of started become my gateway into beer.

Elizabeth Townsend: The woman who helped shape some of NASA's most extraordinary achievements. Sophie was shortlisted for Brewer of the Year at the Inaugural Women in Beer Awards in 2025, and continues to develop her professional brewing skills and brew the delicious, soupy, fruity beers that appear in bars, pubs, and supermarket shelves around the country. Eloise Nicholson Phillips has worked in the brewing industry for nearly five years, building a career that combines technical brewing expertise with a passion for beer education and fermentation science.

Sophie: My gateway beer was Far Skyline from Buxton Brewery, which is a Berliner Weisse and it was so good, the Scotch barrel one that we had.

Elizabeth Townsend: After graduating from UC Davis with a bachelor's degree in food science and brewing, she began her career at Everard's in Leicestershire as a brewing and packaging operative. Over four and a half years, she completed the CIBD diploma in brewing, progressed to Technical Brewer, and helped create some of the brewery's most popular limited edition beers. Now working as a fermentation scientist at Murphy and Son Eloise is continuing to deepen her knowledge of fermentation and the science behind beer production. Inspired by a lifelong fascination with fermented foods and food education, she is passionate about sharing that knowledge with others through tasting, teaching, community focused beer experiences. She is currently pursuing further training in beer tasting and beer sommelier studies, with a particular interest in exploring creative and unconventional beer styles.

Eloise: I really start drinking beer or tasting beer seriously until ⁓ I actually started ⁓ studying at uni. None my friends really drank beer and ⁓ I grew up in California and went to uni in California which is like the center, ⁓ the...

Elizabeth Townsend: I sat down with them to find out more about their journey.

Eloise: the beginning of craft beer in America. There's so many amazing breweries in California. And I just wasn't interested until I started learning ⁓ about beer and brewing. And ⁓ my I made a bunch of great friends who were really passionate about beer and they ⁓ took me local breweries.

Elizabeth (Host): Do you think that there was a distinction between beer that was being made in California and the beer that you're experiencing when you moved across the UK to study?

Eloise: Yeah, there is a difference. The tends to follow American ⁓ trends ⁓ So home, ⁓ there a lot of these experimental breweries doing really craft beer styles. Like back in uni, one of the local ⁓ Brewing, they specialized in sour so that was really popular back then. And so I've noticed trends are starting to pick up over here. The UK has such rich history of brewing and traditional beer styles, but slowly tastes are changing and shifting towards bolder, more bitter American beer styles. New England IPAs are now trendy and popular over here. And we're seeing more sour beer styles and experimental beer styles. So that's really exciting to see, especially since those are the styles that I prefer drinking and that I grew up with, studied with, yeah.

Sophie: I never knew sparklers existed ⁓ until I came up to Buxton. I didn't know what they were. There's one bar in Hastings ⁓ all cask and there's not a sparkler in sight that I've ever seen. ⁓ that was something ⁓ ⁓ new. mean, since I've gone into the I've seen a lot more breweries open up in the compared to the North, I suppose. But then at time, I didn't really know anything. All I knew is that Old Peculiar tasted good ⁓ growing up and liking beer now, Old Peculiar still tastes really good. ⁓

Elizabeth (Host): at what point did you both decide that you wanted a career a professional brewer?

Sophie: happened as a bit of a happy accident. I started working in the tap house ⁓ when was at uni and then Covid happened. Didn't really have a job for a while and then everyone went back to work and then I got my job back at the bar and then obviously Covid happened again and ⁓ they were people to come up to the brewery to help out with packaging boxes for online orders. So I started helping with that and then it kind of progressed into helping on the canning line. then ⁓ was also working in the bar at the same time when we had the garden tap and I kind of decided that I didn't really want to do hospitality anymore as kind of full-time job. So I applied for a job in the brewery as a packaging assistant and I got it. And then... ⁓ As I kind of went on, I learned how to run the canning line. And then started getting interested in the brewing side of things to learn something new and to kind of split up my day and to do new things. then I started shadowing brewers were there at the time. And then eventually just started brewing on my own. And it all kind of happened as a bit of a happy accident. It's nothing that I planned for. I did a university course in outdoor activities and sports coaching science. it's not something that I was actively seeking, but it was really interesting.

Elizabeth (Host): different.

Sophie: And then a couple of years in, I started doing my apprenticeship course with HIIT training. I've just finished that and got a distinction at the end of last year. industry that, want to in, I love beer. But yeah, they all kind of just happened as a happy accident.

Elizabeth (Host): That's kind of fundamental to all of this, isn't it's a love of beer. Was it the same for you, Eloise, when you came over from California?

Eloise: No, well, it didn't start with a love of beer. It started a love for fermented foods. I was just really interested in the mechanisms of fermented and fermentation. wanted to learn more about that. So I went uni to study food science and my goal was to go work for a food company. ⁓ maybe in research and development, very creative and love for new solutions and ⁓ food innovation and is just really to me. in my third year there was an opportunity to do an intro to brewing study abroad course hosted by the University of Nottingham, but led by the head of the brewing department at my uni at UC Davis. I had just 21. So I didn't really drink much and I didn't know anything about beer except that it involved fermentation. So I thought, oh, this is, this sounds like a great opportunity. Let's go learn about another fermented food. did that and on the course when I started to fall in love with beer and brewing. It was just a basic intro to brewing course, but we went out to a hop yard and brewery. I can't remember where it was, but they had open fermentation vessels. They might've been Yorkshire Squares. It was so long ago, I can't remember. It was just all so fascinating. It was just this entire world that I've never experienced before. the program, I went back to uni finished my degree in food science with the brewing option UC Davis doesn't have like a full brewing degree. You just have to kind of tack it on with a few extra brewing courses. So that's how I became interested in becoming a brewer. then graduated right before ⁓ ⁓ hit the of 2019. So ⁓ I ⁓ had some to about what I was going to do, where I was going to go. that study abroad course, I my now husband. So we were also ⁓ discussing which we should live in, what should we do, and it just worked out better for us if ⁓ I to the UK. So I did that. I moved here ⁓ in January 2021. when I able work, ⁓ I applied to all brewing jobs I could find. then I thought, okay, if this work out, this doesn't work out, I'll... look for some food science jobs and if that doesn't work out, I'll just take anything. I actually got offered a brewing and packaging role Everard's, a brewing and packaging operative role. that was kind of my foot in the door. I started at the bottom washing casks and then I graduated to the cask filler and then I eventually learned how to drive the forklift, so I got the best of all worlds in the packaging area. And then I learned how to transfer and filter and carbonate beer. I worked in the lab and the brew house. over the course of three years, I finished CIBD in brewing. And so I ⁓ my ⁓ certificate at the Midlands section dinner a few weeks ago. And so that's that's completed. now my summers to relax and not not studying or studying.

Elizabeth (Host): So Dea Latis did a survey which identified that only 3 % of roles are held by people who identify as women. Do either of you see this changing anytime soon?

Sophie: I feel like moment where it of went up, it? And then recently it's come down again. I that this changes. definitely been support and it's been from certain people as well. I've only ever worked with one other women brewer at Buxton Brewery and I'd to see that change and I'd like to see more women apply for the jobs. ⁓ as well as get interested in it, because I do think it's a fun career And I think this is what's really good about ⁓ International Women's Collaboration Brew Day as well. It's a chance for other women to go to breweries and see what it's like and to see the fun that you can have and what the job kind of entails as well as kind of getting people into the beer world a bit more. and just kind of expanding people's minds ⁓ little bit more on Although it can be a very male-dominated business, it's more women to those roles ⁓ and go for it and apply and into it.

Eloise: also hopeful that more women start entering the industry. my role with Everards, they're a traditional family brewery. think they just celebrated 175th birthday and I'm the first. female brewer to be working there. ⁓ be I do think me being a woman helped ⁓ a bit get my I mean, I was, I am and was qualified for the job, but there's just not as many ⁓ applying for these roles. And would like to think that breweries want to diversify and bring people in ⁓ different perspectives and backgrounds and support women entering this industry. ⁓ And I have heard from head brewer from another this was a couple years ago, saying, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I more women applied. Like ⁓ I to hire a woman. ⁓ So know if that's every brewery, but I think there are breweries out there looking to hire more women and give them a chance to succeed.

Elizabeth (Host): we've touched really briefly ⁓ the International Women's Collaboration Brew Days. I know you've both hosted attended those this year. Can you me a little bit about how those have positively impacted your this year and ⁓ details about the that you've been

Sophie: I did my first one three years ago now and it was I'd never heard of it. the first one I went to was four years ago Two breweries in

Elizabeth (Host): Three?

Sophie: never knew about them at all until that point. And it was the best thing that I got into when I was getting into brewing because I met so many different people that were either just into beer. had beer shop, like beer bar, were brewers was just a great way to start opening doors and networking with other people and to see other people in the industry. And then I hosted my own 2022 or 2023. invited people from local breweries so for example Sarah from Torrside New I had Mel from Cloudwater on my first one and then I had some people who were ⁓ in the subgroup of Crafty Girls, the Manchester side of it as well and then I had two sales marketing people from Bear Town on my first one and I had Alice and Laura from Thornbridge as well and ⁓ it was just a great way to how people were getting on with their jobs as well and knowing that you're not you're not the only one feeling sometimes a bit down in certain areas and it just comes it comes with the job sometimes. and that was really comforting well talking about beer getting more knowledge as well, especially when I was starting other people. this year I had Sarah from Torrside Connie from Bear two brewers and a few other people. And then this year we've done ⁓ another juicy, hazy NEIPA because it's like one of my favourite beers to make, seeing how soupy I can make a beer. And we called it Hidden Figures after Katherine Johnson, the black mathematician, we've called it Hidden Figures after her. hop-wise we've used Falconers Flight, Cashmere and Dolcita ⁓

Elizabeth (Host): Sophie, like me and you met at the Track International Women's Collaboration Brew Day three years ago. before Karoo even existed. I think I turned up and the only thing that I had was a piece of paper that said the business name it and a t-shirt with the logo. all we had was a logo and a company name registered. it was just the most incredible environment just to get everyone together, everyone who was was really friendly, really liked beer, just super, super nice people. And then some of people I met on that day, like I'm still in, you know, good friends with now. was the first time I think I realised these are actually kind of people. it was a really amazing experience. And to go back to Track for International Women's this year hosting a collab with them, as we were saying before, like a full circle moment. So it's, really, really exciting. It's a a really great initiative to get board with. What about you, Eloise? you've done a couple of International Women's Collaboration Brew Days this year.

Eloise: Yeah, this is my year getting involved International Women's Brewery Day. ⁓ I first to Liquid Lights Brewery Day in Nottingham. That was a collaboration with ⁓ No Half Measures, is a women beer group based in Nottingham. And ⁓ Jaega Wise came up and the day us and did ⁓ New Zealand workshop, where we got to like rub and and analyze, think maybe seven or eight different hops. So that really cool. yeah, we did with Hop, that's another one. Add it to the list. But that's going to be another really juicy, hazy, yeah, was my first experience, ⁓ which was great. were maybe like 30, about 30 women there. like you guys have both said, it's just a brilliant way to ⁓ network with people in the industry, but also just meet other women who love beer and give women who aren't in those spaces an opportunity to learn about beer, ⁓ the drink that they love and how it's made. going back how we can get more women involved in the industry, think this is perfect platform to showcase what it's like to be a brewer and work in the industry. Because I'm guessing a lot of women who do end up in brewing went to uni to study kind of ⁓ science STEM degree and somehow made their in. And I think a smaller percentage of women who ⁓ wanted to get into brewing originally. yeah, that was great. And then ⁓ hosted a brew day at Everard's. was from, she used to work at Murphy & Son, but now she works at Crisp Malt. And I think it was two weeks ⁓ date that ⁓ talked about. So I thought, know, this could just be like a low key event. ⁓ So I ⁓ went it, I organized and we did a collaboration with No Half Measures. we invited some of the women from our pubs, we ⁓ ended having four members of No Half Measures and women from, no, five women from some of our pubs. yeah, we also brewed a NEPA. gave the pub owners a ⁓ as to what style we would make since they would be the ones selling the beer in their pubs. And I suggested a nice chocolatey stout, but they wanted to go for a NEPA And as of the collaboration, we chose the hops on the day. So we went with, we just in Idaho Pink, which ⁓ has like a, think like a peach and. sweet confectionery character to it. And then we also added mosaic nectar on dry hopped during fermentation after fermentation. And ⁓ this was a completely new for me as well. We put rice hulls in the mash, which I've never used ⁓ And runoff was still very slow. I don't know how much it helped, but I'm sure it did. I'm sure it But yeah, totally new beer and it's yeah, it's just finished fermenting. So hopefully packaging that soon we're still picking a name and design and charity and everything. I also went to the Thornbridge the last brew day I went to was ⁓ the women in beer. collaboration with Thornbridge.

Elizabeth (Host): That looked amazing, getting a tour of the Burton Union system.

Eloise: I know, it was only a week before that I their Instagram, they released a series of ⁓ Instagram videos about the Burton Union. And to be honest, I've never heard of it before watching that video. I thought, ⁓ my God.

Elizabeth (Host): Matthew Curtis who made those videos, he'll be delighted to hear that.

Eloise: ⁓ I'm glad. Yeah, no, they're brilliant. I have them saved on Instagram so could go back and look at them later. But yeah, it was so cool to see. ⁓ got to climb up a ladder and look inside and... I was would be ⁓ like an incredible ⁓ to brew ⁓ the Union, also a pain keep the barrels moist at all times. It's just a lot of work.

Elizabeth (Host): what advice you have for anyone who wants to embark on a career as a brewer?

Sophie: Just do the research, ask the questions that you're scared to ask and go for it. If you're interested, do it, apply for it. Even if you don't have much experience, I didn't any experience when I got into it I'm a qualified brewer and there's so many paths that you can take within the brewing industry. It doesn't always have to be... brewing either. don't feel scared to stand up for yourself just for what you want as well and ask for the support. Go somewhere that is positive and that will look out for you, especially as a woman in the industry. just go for I've this so many times before, go for it, do ⁓ it. ⁓ ⁓ Have fun with it, go somewhere fun. If you love learning, it's such a good industry to learn all the time. And the amount of people that you meet within the industry brew days, events like beer ex, or even if you end up doing an apprenticeship or a course of some description, you're going to meet so many different people who've got so much experience different ways and so much knowledge as well that not everyone's going to have the same knowledge. who's been brewing for two years compared to someone who's been brewing for nine years, their knowledge is going to be so ⁓ between them and the person that's got nine years of experience might not even know what the person with two years experience has learned, you know? Go for it. Do it.

Eloise: such great advice. I don't know how much I can add to that. No, that's brilliant. I'd say look out local ⁓ women beer groups ⁓ as usually setting great opportunities collaborate with other breweries, ⁓ going to breweries and they might people in the industry. ⁓ I think that give ⁓ a great to learn about beer and make more connections. And yeah, same looking out for these International Women Collaboration Brew Days. That's also a great opportunity to meet people in the industry and see ⁓ what it be to work in a brewery. Because it's not always as... charming as it sounds. It is very difficult and it's a lot of work, but it is worth it in the end. The industry a lot smaller than you'd think, so when you go to events you end up seeing the same people and building connections and friendships. is a great network of women in brewing that support each other. And yeah, like Sophie was saying, sure that whoever, brewery you end up for is out for you and your best interests and is supporting you as a woman in the industry. sure it's changing now. ⁓ I haven't had any experiences with brewers because a woman. yeah, like Sophie said, just go out there and apply. Look for apprenticeships. That is best way to get your foot in the door get into the industry. And then I also think if you have ⁓ a degree in STEM, that helps a lot as well. you foundation just like an understanding of scientific concepts relies on. So if you already have a degree in that and you're looking for a career shift, that could really help.

Elizabeth (Host): what beers are you enjoying at the moment, both making and drinking for fun?

Sophie: I love making a NEIPA I love making soupy beer. I like making it really hard other people to package. I just, I love putting loads of different hops what you can get out of hops as well. I mean, my favourite beer that I think I've in the last probably two years was last year's International Women's Collaboration Brew Day. which again was a juicy NEIPA but it had Superdelic Nectaron in vista, it has some real juicy hops that are amazing. Beer that I've been enjoying at the moment though, I don't think I've had a beer for a long time at the moment. The last thing that I drank which was alcoholic was a pickle kombucha. alcoholic pickle kombucha and it was amazing. But I mean, I tend to go for Belgian kind of style beers, nothing ⁓ too I had a tropical Berliner Weisse actually the other day that was ⁓ Mikkeller one of our local beer cafes which was nice. ⁓ It anything super amazing it was enjoyable. Yeah, hit the spot. Not as much as that pickle kombucha though. Like that's the only thing I've been thinking about for ages. It was amazing. It so good.

Eloise: That sounds delicious.

Elizabeth (Host): ⁓ by this. I this pickle beer back from Texas when we went in September I had such high expectations for it because I really like pickles and it had overwhelming taste of garlic that I just wasn't expecting. It was like a dill pickle. ⁓ but with just tons of garlic in it and it just it wasn't the one unfortunately so if there's any other pickle beer recommendations like please please let me know I'd love to give it another go but definitely not that garlicky one.

Sophie: what if you brewed a beer but instead of water it was just all pickle brine

Elizabeth (Host): Picklebrine One of the beers for this summer, I think. ⁓

Eloise: Yeah, I'd try that.

Sophie: Pickle brine beer. Yeah.

Eloise: as far brewing, we brew a lot of ales and nepas, ⁓ that gets a bit boring. So ⁓ I prefer brewing our pilot brewery where we get to a bit more creative. right now I like brewing Imperial stout. So really any stout, ⁓ just... really like those rich flavors, trying to pack as much flavor into a stout as possible with different kinds of We just got, think we got some like Imperial, ⁓ I what it is, Imperial Brown malts, ⁓ which like a really nutty character. yeah, just playing with different combinations of malt is fun. ⁓ And I yeah. love a good stout.