Elizabeth Townsend: So if you could go back in time a couple of years and speak to a slightly younger, Vik and Mike and give them some ⁓ what would you Welcome to First Draught a podcast about beer and the people who make it. First Draught is presented by me, Elizabeth Townsend, co-founder of Kerroo Brewing Company in the Isle of Man, and Eliza Drinks Beer on Instagram. Throughout the series, I'll be meeting the creatives and creators behind the world's best beer, revisiting their very first pints and now navigating a successful career in the professional beer industry. This week features a brewery field recording, a conversation with Vik Williams and Mike Corbett of Colbier in Bootle. That's it from me this week, thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe on your chosen podcast platform for a brand new episode every Wednesday morning. talk a bit about the collab we've done. ⁓ So it's a no-coast. ⁓ remember why we decided to do a no-coast in the first place. think it was because... Eliminated coast between our breweries. So there's no coast there. Yeah, so it's a no-coast or mountain IPA. We've been debating over whether to call it a no-coast or mountain IPA. What do you guys think? What sounds better? I think mountain IPA sounds... I think no-coast kind of confuses people a little bit. Mountain IPA sounds quite romantic, doesn't it? I think that, yeah. It's like... I don't know what that is, but I want to try it. It sounds an adventure. two years in. How's it going? Sound? ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ I probably would have bought a keg washer from the get-go. And I bet a cask washer because our cask washer was bollocks. Yeah, no, it's sound Yeah. ⁓ no, it's fun. stressful every day. And but you know, kind of take it as it is. Surviving. Yeah. you're literally the same age as us, aren't you? Two years in March. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What plans have you got for your birthday? ⁓ so ⁓ we're gonna do like a few little tap takeovers. We've got ⁓ overture, which is our core range hazy pale. ⁓ last we did ⁓ Back in February, Nick and I were invited to their brewery to collaborate on a brand new beer, Arrane which we released in the spring. During a break, we sat down to try and answer the question, who on earth would decide to open a new brewery in this day and age? Vik and Mike launched Colbeer in March 2024, crafting beers inspired by a love of great music. They were awarded Best New Independent Brewery at the 2025 SIBA Business Awards and were shortlisted for Best New Brewery at the 2025 Brewer's Journal Awards. In this episode, we're also joined by Nick Scarffe. Yeah, so me and Jason both thought no coast and I think actually there's somebody at the Denbeigh that also said no because that's when we had one started the debate a while ago before we even talked about this collab ⁓ ⁓ think was it called mountain IPA? It was called mountain IPA, was like that's no coast, mountain IPA is a much better word but I think no coast Yeah, a Firkin ⁓ just three Furkins of it, ⁓ that went into Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield, one in each. And this year we've got twelve and they're all going to the top takeovers and stuff for our birthdays. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. And then we've got a little pub near us, we always do a little birthday collab together. ⁓ last year we did five point one percent beer for their fifth birthday on our first birthday, and this year we're doing a six point two ⁓ sour my partner in both business and life, as we chat about navigating the first two years of brewery ownership from both sides of the Irish Sea. um i i just have saved up a lot longer you can never have enough money you can never have enough money oh sure normally it's a myth yeah i kept like it's always like grass is always green on the other side and i did wonder should we have contract brewed first like we were talking about earlier we also had that thought had that same conversation the other day it didn't even cross our mind that that was an option it crossed my mind did it yeah i don't remember having that conversation Pink lemonade sour? No, I haven't quite decided on the flavours yet. Okay. It's gonna be something. I'm looking forward to when that gets to the twenty percent beer. That's ⁓ gonna You're optimistic. ⁓ So we go back three or four years, how did Colbier come to be what prompted you to start your own brewery after working in the industry? ⁓ So how do we describe what a mountain IPA is? So it's kind of like a hybrid between a west coast and an east coast. think we're taking the best things of all. It was when I remember doing a business plan the whole point of me setting up a brewery is I like brewing beer if I could have kept my previous job and done that it might have not quite as bitter as a West Coast and it's not quite as dry as a West Coast but it's still lot drier than a NEIPA You dry hop it to the same level as a NEIPA ⁓ kind of want it hazy but not too murky. That's a key thing as well. You don't want it bright but you don't want it murky. It needs to be somewhere in the middle. So actually in terms of the craft beer market it could be like the next most popular beer ever because it could be so appealing to so many people. ⁓ you come across any no-coast beers before? ⁓ we kinda like got offered a kit that was a very reasonable price and it was the only time we could really afford to do it I suppose. And it was kinda like, may as well, really. Like it was just after COVID and or I suppose it's still around, but you know, like lock the lockdowns and stuff. And you kinda thought, it can't get any worse at this point. It's only gonna get better. Yeah. Some things seemed to be align aligning at the time where like it seemed to be a good idea. made things a little bit easier, but mean, I've gotten awful against it. ⁓ I just think wasn't for me, Yeah, quite a few. I had the fell one. The fell one... Actually the first one I ever had was from back when it was acceptable to get beer 52. It's so long time. So well before Covid. I can't remember who it was but it was somebody who was in the Rockies. I remember when we were setting up it was very much like there was that yearning for like what things were, if you know what I mean. And I remember when we were setting up it was like, ⁓ I can't wait to get back to to what things were and that was a huge part of for us, I think, wasn't it? Of like I know, it kind of took away a lot of the romance of it, the idea of it. And you kind of want that to hold onto. Yeah. And it it was also 'cause like we met during COVID, it was after the second lockdown. So on the Isle of Man it was slightly different and we had it was one of the only places on the whole planet that didn't have lockdowns because we were effectively quarantined You weren't allowed in, you couldn't get out and come back and things like that. ⁓ So ⁓ I came I living in London at the time, working in the music industry, ⁓ and I came back and I was like, like I've gone back in time. Like we were in the news, we were on like American television ⁓ about the fact that was this ⁓ they had an owl as their logo, that's what I remember. One island in the middle of the British Isles that was just quotes back to normal. And I think I'd gone from London, which was heavily locked down, we couldn't go out for a pint. I was desperate for things to you know, I wanted to just go out and enjoy myself. And I think when we met five years ago, you had this idea of starting a brewery. I just didn't want to have to work in an office anymore. and yeah, I there was just a very intense feeling of like, ⁓ wouldn't it be? It's like a romantic notion of like, wouldn't But yeah also what is that the whole no coast thing? Yeah you're using like a NEIPA yeast. You want to dry it out a little bit as well so it's a little bit yeah less sweet than a NEIPA So we're using very typical NEIPA hops combined with very typical west coast hops. So we've got Columbus as well as Krush and ⁓ also a bit of Chinook which actually I just randomly threw in Chinook last minute because like this beer that I'm drinking right now because I was like that's quite grapefruity and grapefruit that's bitter but fruity though, worked quite well in the no-goast so ⁓ decided that would be like the middleman hop. ⁓ Wouldn't it nice if we set up a brewery? Was it the same for you guys? I was something that I always wanted to do. Yeah. And I've been trying to convince you to do it for years. Yeah. and I was kinda like be b between jobs as well. I just left a brewing job and Yeah. I kind of wasn't really in the mood to work for anybody else at that point. It was kinda like, yeah, may as well now. I owned a online vinyl record shop. ⁓ And so for eight sold records. I had a quite a large amount of stock at one point. It was up to about sixty thousand records. ⁓ but they would sell they were all right. ⁓ helped us buy our house. ⁓ So ⁓ and ⁓ Yeah, but like when I was doing that it kinda was self sustainable at one point. Like it was kinda like everybody had to do like a big day of shipping everything out that week and then a bit of admin each ⁓ So I started working in a craft beer bar in Liverpool and that's where all the brewers hung out, so I got to know all the brewers around twenty fifteen onwards and stuff and when Brexit was coming in, it became too expensive to run the record business anymore. So like records came from stocking in from like of like nine ninety nine a record, brand new records. These were deals with a few suppliers, to like seventeen fifty overnight. And it was just too expensive, so I retrained as a brewer because I just knew a lot of brewers and stuff as well. Did you both have like a love for craft beer before you started this? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Probably more so Mike. ⁓ but mainly 'cause I wasn't well, I'd I lived abroad for a long time, I lived in France for seven years. ⁓ and obviously beer's a bit behind the UK in terms of like yeah, just a few years behind basically. So there were like little craft breweries popping up here and there but not on the level that it was happening in the UK. yeah, always just been a big beer lover. You started home brewing when I started brewing professionally. Yeah. ⁓ And then I guess was like supporting you mainly. ⁓ and then here I am. ⁓ I ⁓ don't know. got and more involved. You w you weren't happy in your current working situation as well. Yeah. And you were starting to do more and more here as well. And then it got to the point where we needed you because you were like yeah. ⁓ You're good at what were doing. Yeah, I'm very adaptable, so I kinda picked things up quite quickly That's one of the important things actually about running a brewery is that there's so many things that you realise you need to do or you have to pay you have to either pay somebody else to do it. Or learn to do it yourself. Or learn to do it yourself, exactly. So like all of the DIY you were mentioning you had to dig out the the concrete to get your floor drains in and your business. Which is I mean that's the sort of thing that you'd never ever think you'd have to do. Yeah. But you've you've got to muck in and get it get it done. What were what are some things that you wish you would have known a couple of years ago before you started this process? Don't dig out your own drains! ⁓ What's something that you wish you could have known a couple of years ago before you started this process? Don't buy a Lynx inkjet printer? Has it been harder easier or more enjoyable than you're expecting? Or did you just have zero expectations? I wish I wish I knew how to weld. I really, want to lay out. There's a welding course at home that I saw the other day and I was like, you know what, I might do that. Yeah. Because that would be such a handy skill to have. I've bought everything, I just don't have the gas and Vik won't let me try it. ⁓ you've got enough stainless steel lying around, you'll be to find it. No. And ⁓ the thing I it's it's it's all these things, isn't it? It's ends up saving you saving you money, doesn't it? I'm surprised how well received the beers were, to be honest. Like, I didn't expect people to take to our brewery as fast as they did. Yeah. I knew it going be hard, I didn't know it was going be this didn't expect to the we would say exactly the same. Everybody tells you when you say I'm setting up a brewery, especially if it's a seasoned brewer or a seasoned business owner. And this is what we found. There's a there's a few things I won't go near. Electric scares the shit out of me. Whereas, know, plumbing I'm a bit like, Yeah, I I could do especially with push fit pipes. You're a bit like you know, I've used John Guest fittings before, I figure out how to use it. ⁓ So kind of that and it is that thing of ⁓ you end up mucking in and just going, How hard can it be? ⁓ they'll usually turn around to you and say, don't do it, don't set up a brewery, don't do this, don't do that. And always found a lot of the advice people had was very negative, very don't do this, don't do that. And I kind of turned around and was like, well, I'm gonna do it. So you're not going to convince me otherwise, like what advice can you give me? Yeah, we don't do it. know, it's like, it doesn't help anyone. If the point of like, oh, I'm doing this, you've already made your mind up. So like no matter what someone says to you at that point, like you're all in anyway. So it's like, you're not going to convince me not to do it. Like, either give me some support or why are we this conversation? Obviously we just said before, like we started the same month and stuff and we kind of started at very different. And y often it's a lot harder than you think. Yeah, like some weeks it's like I can't afford to call the electrician just to change this element. And you can do stuff like that, it's just like changing a plug really Yeah, yeah. You're always saying YouTube is your friend, aren't you? ⁓ learned I've to be honest, I've probably learned how to brew ⁓ YouTube. Don't say ⁓ ⁓ it's like the the so YouTube is a treasure trope. And to be honest, the internet is a treasure trove these days. I think it you know, anything you want to know you can find in some description on the internet. in very different sort of places and you guys have got like quite a good taproom but don't sell as much to trade and we're the complete opposite. So it's very different situations. Everybody was like moaning about certain things which I thought like, that's going to be a huge obstacle and they turn out to be the easiest things to get over. Like licensing and stuff. They're like, you gotta wait forever for your AWRS don't bother and stuff. And I was piss easy. ⁓ If got the right and you know... How's the beer scene in Liverpool at the minute? Yeah, it's good. ⁓ it's very like local. ⁓ People that like in the centre of town anyway. It's a little bit different in certain places in the suburbs. ⁓ there's not many people who are just like getting guest beers from all over the country. They're just getting like casks from local or Or Yorkshire. Yeah, or Yorkshire and stuff. But like there's like there's places on the Wirral all over the water and stuff that you may see like more from all over. But in the city centre especially it's mainly just There's a lot of local stuff, yeah. Which is good. I mean people want to spot local sort of what you're doing, think that sort of compliance side of things does become quite easy because you you're serious about it. think they're probably used to seeing a lot of people who aren't prepared, don't know what they're doing. and then the authorities come in and go you're nowhere near where you need to be to do this. But I think if you're in a place where you've spoken to enough people like with you guys, you've worked in the industry, you get it, it's a lot easier. I think a lot of people come into this probably thinking, ⁓ it's fine, I'll fumble my way through it. But when you're dealing with... Not much like ⁓ rotational keg really. There's like there's a little bit, but not as much of like people wanting to try different things on keg all the time. If you've got established keg beer, they'll start to buy more and more of that. Right. But if we we sell predominantly cask of our new beers and stuff because can't really get in anywhere with like a guest keg. Why do you think that is? the authorities effectively, they have boxes they have to tick and if you don't take that box you don't pass. ⁓ I think as well, like might as well as a you've had businesses previously, you've a good sense of what running a business entails and you've had a lot of industry experience ⁓ and those the things that probably stood you in a better stead than like your average home brewer who's like, I'm gonna make this into my like... ⁓ Don't know. It's just the types of pubs. It maybe used to be like that, not before Covid. ⁓ I think it just seems customary now to have your cask on rotation and then keg lines. don't know. Do you think there's a lot of tied keg lines in Liverpool? ⁓ not ⁓ yes and no. There is, but like also a lot of places that have got it free and they just kinda wanna buy what they know. Mm-hmm. But like it might be rotational permanent, so like, ⁓ we've got a permanent line in a pub and into my career or whatever. You already had all that additional knowledge that people might not realise just how many aspects there are to it and how complex it is. But you had that bit down and then almost it's like the other bits were the harder bits. The other bits were stuff like, well I tried juggle everything. We're running quite a big sized brewery for such a small team. But also cash flow and... They get overture all the time. But then they've got a permanent Asvex line next to it and that's pretty much rotational Azvex beers and stuff. So it's hard for somebody else to move in in there. like you might have pubs that have like ⁓ maybe they're tied macro breweries for like most of their keg lines and then they'll have ⁓ like one guest one. But of rotating that they'll just have something that they know punters like and is popular and they'll sell through and ⁓ So actually it sounds very to the Isle of Man then, doesn't it? Because dealing with trying to be happy with customers all the time when they're being arses. They're asking for the world and stuff and it's like they're asking for a complete bar install or loads of glassware and t-shirts and it's like you bought two cases come on. Because you've got to fork out for the beer a month before you start selling it then you've got to wait another month to get paid for it if you sell it all straight away. And if they pay on time which often people don't. So with your background working do have opportunities get on keg lines but only in the completely free ⁓ free houses. ⁓ Not the free that have Guinness, their ⁓ macro lagers ⁓ and it does sound similar in ⁓ Do you think that there's more a trend towards cask ale drinking ⁓ Yeah, I think over COVID that's become a thing like ⁓ in the local area industry, sure that you'd already sold that beer before you started this, before you made the first beer? Yes and no. Yeah, we knew some customers would buy from us straight off the bat. We had certain people that we thought would buy more and then we had other people that we weren't expecting to buy and they bought more sort of things. So the people that we thought would buy loads ended up actually not buying loads. Keg, obviously the carbonation's a lot more similar to can and people could have cans at home. ⁓ or if they had their own bar they might have done something with keg because it lasts longer. ⁓ but cask there was a bit of a like gap there under everyone's hearts. ⁓ yeah. It was quite a heartbreaking thing to see really, isn't it? And I think that was one of the big things that a lot of people missed during COVID was the lack like the Yeah, we kind of got the amount of sales that we thought we'd get but not from the same people, if you get me. The inability to get cask casket. ⁓ Tell us a bit about your plans for your tap room. Because at the minute you have so you have your site in ⁓ it's Bootle, isn't it? Yeah. The area. Don't know why I'm saying is it Bootle? Like I'm not sat in your brewery right now. Where are you looking to set up? it's still like yeah. I'm still looking into it. Still looking into it. It's still very much in the early days of like a just we've like had a conversation with of the brewers recently didn't We went to a brewers retreat in January. Was that the round corner brewers retreat? Yeah yeah yeah ⁓ and pretty much everyone was saying the same thing they were like talking about trying to get like contracts with customers ⁓ and pretty much everyone there and there's about 60 people from yeah the plan to like yeah try and make it like a community thing. It's not it's also not necessarily focused on our beer, but our beers are are on sort of thing. It's just a permanent hub for it. We want to have guest beers on. ⁓ maybe just be like half and half, maybe. a mix of keg and cask and yeah, a few other things. But it's ⁓ also just having like ⁓ helping with the cash flow, it's helping with the community aspect as well. And it's helping with like ⁓ different breweries, all different sizes, all different parts of country and Ireland and everything and pretty much everyone of them said no, never had a contract with the customer like it's just not, or it was with wholesale essentially it was with wholesale but generally like tying people into taking specific quantities it's just not possible. feel like bigger brewers are good at that sort of thing but they have full-time sales teams who you know that's what they do and they've you know this that and the other but when you're trying to juggle so many different things and you Also pushing beers that we think that people should try more and they don't want to take a punt on it. Like we make some beers that aren't necessarily like as safe for people to get in anymore, like Belgian style beers and stuff and extremely malty yet hoffy beers. And when people have them they absolutely love it. then pub sometimes don't want to take a punt on it. Yeah. And we want to broadcast that a bit more. ⁓ Yeah. We that, haven't we? That it's sometimes get convincing people to take a beer that you know they'll love. Mm-hmm. Because I think you often say don't. trying to be, you again like we find you care so much about it when you're a business owner that... you don't want to be too pushy you kind of want to like you know want to be everybody's friend and things like that and it's hard to be cutthroat I think isn't it it's hard to do things sometimes you need to do to make the when you're so emotionally close to everything and it's your money and it's your livelihood and it's your kind of your hate calling it a baby because we're not parents but yeah it's it's a conceptual baby that is ours that we put like everything into and it's really difficult to kind of get your head out of out of that whole I feel very blinkered a you like you the the beer you haven't tried is potentially your next favourite beer. Mm-hmm. It's that it's that thing of convincing people. And craft beer is all about trying new things, but sometimes people get stuck in a bit of a rut, you know, especially if they have favourite beer. It's quite hard to get them out of that, you know. I know you really like that. lot of the time just focus on what tomorrow's what I have to do tomorrow like what's on my plan and actually like you guys have got you got Jason now as your sales guy you've got another freelance salesperson how is that how is expanding that team helped you kind of see the bigger picture? But it's only a pint, so maybe maybe try or you can have a half pint or can have a third, like maybe maybe try it. And and when they do, you know. guess that's kind of links back to the what we were just talking about though, about how keg lines in particular ⁓ the kind of the same wherever you go ⁓ people are maybe not sure if they want to try something a bit different. But whereas ⁓ maybe like the lineup is a bit more kind of traditional, they know that they're gonna enjoy like a bitter or a blonde ale or a golden or something like that. Yeah. ⁓ so it's a little bit easier to maybe a bit easier for the public to navigate. And I think what I've realized is actually appetite, like the work that we put in at Kerroo over the last two years to get people to appreciate like a hazy beer. I think when we started we got lots of comments in the tap room people going like, why is it hazy is it off? There's a lot of trad beer drinkers who kind of assumed that if it was hazy it was off there was something wrong with it. And you kind of ⁓ know it's almost you have to explain to them though it's per you put a lot of effort into making it hazy and it's purposefully hazy. have a tap room, need to really focus on sales ⁓ so we knew was an important thing right the start. I'm not really sure actually how it helps us focus on things. It's still all over the place and still work very long hours. Yeah, it's still hard to take a step back and see the big picture if I'm honest. When you're just like, every day is so busy and every day is just non-stop. I think it's just like knowing that things are in hand and knowing that there's, you know, like Jason's working on securing new customers get that and they try it, they almost don't want to go back in a way. And it's kind of it's sometimes just getting it getting it across to them that you can try different things and it you know it's just a pint. You're not you're not you're not taking that mortgage to get this thing. It's like it you know, there's no jeopardy in this. Yeah, that's true. And like I saw It's the same with us because we're in the position now where we're kind of appointing like a taproom manager because we've got to the point where we've been running the taproom for two years. know what we can sell in our local area. So now me and Nick need to step away and focus on trade sales, which includes like the Northwest, Lake District, potentially Liverpool area as well. ⁓ just about to sign with our first wholesaler this week. ⁓ ⁓ now need to grow the business by stepping away from that kind of ⁓ to customer ⁓ It's been incredibly useful because it's meant that we can test our beers, we can see what people ⁓ the other day in in the grapes there was a guy ⁓ who came over and complained 'cause his pint was hazy and he was like, It tastes great, but you know, it's hazy, is it meant to meant to taste like that? I stood next to him, I said, Mate, it's steady rolling man and of course it's hazy like it's a big deal. see what they respond to. How much do you think that from a trade point of view your brewery production schedule has been influenced your local area? did you set out to create specific beers? Has it changed as you've gone along in the last two years? mean initially we thought we'd be making more of hazy pales because that's what we thought the market would like and we thought we'd be doing more keg as a result. Because of the previous brewery I was out we were doing the same 4 % hazy pale 80 % of the time and I thought we need to do that. It would be like that sort of thing you need to have that that's always in tank and you need to keep making it and then everybody just wanted our trad stuff and their casks so which was nice for us because it's also like what we wanted to drink. But we always set out to have a core range and it's kind of taken a while to really establish it but I feel like it's now finally getting to point where like our core range keg beers are I mean the cask core range is always, there two of them anyway, Baritone and Chorus have always been quite good sellers but now the six of them. So we're of trying to build those brands in themselves a lot more at this point. How you what becomes a beer? I suppose it's trying to find bids that kind of... tick a lot of boxes for people. We want to be as inclusive as possible so we want to have something for everyone. So it's like one thing for every type of drinker. Yeah so you've got your trad drinkers, your cask drinkers, you've pale ale or your best bitter or even And then we've got two gluten free options as part of our core range. We've got a hazy pale kind of intro to know craft beer for those that don't really know what craft beer is I suppose and kind of like a gateway beer. they're all like apart from maybe Overture because they're all supposed to be really sessionable and just really like easy drinking we also wanted to take a step back to like Craft Beer like 10 years ago when beer might have a bit more bitterness and they might be a lot more different from each other, they don't taste similar to each other and they might taste different to other people's beers as well to try and make ourselves stand out. So even though they are just like a best bitter, it'll taste very different to a normal best bitter. Like it's very dark, it's dark ruby and it's got like quite a lot of bitterness to it. And chorus is like... is a very tried pale but also very weird in a certain sense of the word because of the hops used. It's got a kind grassy, spicy note to it. Minty. Minty as well, But that's our best seller by far. Yeah, obviously we said about the Bohemian Pilsner, which is now a bit more like a just a nicely clean lager really, to be honest, which is actually, that's gone a bit, is nicer now. you know, so the punters were right. then, yeah, Nitro Stout, like you don't want to copy Guinness, because Guinness is already there, do your own thing, which is like a Nitro Stout as well, but like that, they all fit in their own categories, but they're also slightly different, so that's how the Core Range kind of evolved. You know what mean? They're all slightly different to that sort of style. But what about your Core Range? you got a lager and a pale or did you decide from day one you'd do that? I think we found this is one of the things that's really useful for us having a taproom because especially the fact we staff the taproom is that you're there at the coal face talking to the customers and they'll tell you why don't you do a lager or wish your lager was little bit weaker, not as strong so they can drink more of it. It's been hard work working the taproom but it's been really really useful getting that instant feedback from people you know because I suppose if you sell into trade you might get a little bit of feedback trickling back but some landlords are not going to tell you some yeah whatever but it's been especially as as the brewer sometimes the the feedback can be quite cutting and it's quite hard to hear if it's something you poured your heart and soul into you think this is a really good beard and then some people are just I just don't like it ⁓ but ⁓ it's thing you do ⁓ have to brew the people want they're the people who are buying the beer. completely agree with the thing that you were saying about having a beer for everybody almost.