Helena: Welcome from Intent to Impact, a Products to Change podcast. Over the last five years, the brand licensing, toy fashion and retail industry has been one of the most significant transformation of journeys in its history. which once felt like a niche sustainability conversation has become central to how businesses design, source, manufacture and grow. podcast is all about capturing that journey, ⁓ openly and from the people who are actually shaping it ⁓ who are actually part of our POC community. We're looking back at what's worked, what hasn't, the decisions that I've decided that have actually defined this moment in time. And just as importantly we're actually looking forward to the next five years and what it's gonna take to build an industry that is future fit for the industry. So those that don't know, I'm Helena Mansell-Stopher. started this crazy operation that is products to change. And I'm delighted to be joined by somebody who's really been at the heart of this transformation, Greg Simmons, Director of Sustainable Product Development at Moose Toys. Greg, hello officially.

Greg Simmons: Yeah. Hello, Helena. Great to see you again. Thanks for the lovely intro. Looking forward to the chat.

Helena: Oh, no, that's fine. Me too, and digging into it a little bit more. And for those that don't know, Greg's actually in Australia and I'm in London. So it's, what time is it again, Greg? Seven o'clock. And he doesn't have any alcohol with him to help the conversation. He's got stuff to do after this conversation.

Greg Simmons: It's now 7.05 and a TikTok says. No, yeah, definitely got to jump in the car. there's none of that shenanigans yet. Maybe afterwards I might pick a bottle of Vino while we're out.

Helena: ⁓ very nice. those that don't know Greg that have joined us to have a good old listen into what the industry has been up to, Greg actually brings the most amazing wealth of experience and insight ⁓ actually how meaningful change actually happens inside a large global toy organization. And today we're going to dig into that a little bit deeper. But before we do that, I'd really like to know who is ⁓ outside work. You most people might not know who you are. I like to ask the question of what are you reading at the minute?

Greg Simmons: So it's really, it's a cheesy. It's so far as the title, the Ultimate Air Fryer cookbook. I know it's not exactly, it's not exactly, know, meals and boom. It's not exactly some, you know, great piece of pros, but certainly I was gifted a lovely air fryer for Christmas. I resisted the temptation for long time. And now the thing is I've gone down the whole rabbit hole.

Helena: Ooh! I love it!

Greg Simmons: of ⁓ frying and I've got to say it's transformational. ⁓ Yeah, well, so in my house, we've got our oven, when parked boat up and took all the animals off, he also took off the appliances and one of those was the oven that sits in our house.

Helena: ⁓ okay. Tell me how. I don't have an hair dryer.

Greg Simmons: And so this is not exactly the most efficient piece of kit, especially in summer. You don't want to fire it up because actually it acts more like a radiator than it does. And so just on the power savings alone, but actually it's, I am, I am now a convert to the, um, the air fryer. I think, um, you know, that every, every good kitchen needs one. And now I found myself delving into right. How can I do this? How can I do this? So the next one's going to be, um, I've got to try the old pork crispy pork belly.

Helena: okay

Greg Simmons: So I've been researching those ones as well. So yeah, it's a bit geeky when it comes down to it. I'm getting some air fry cookbook.

Helena: Uh-huh. It's what's consuming your time. I love that. And actually, I think, you know, there is a big sustainability story behind an air fryer. So, you know, we're here talking about sustainability, though that wasn't the intention to kind of get stuck into an air fryer conversation. But it's part of your world, Greg. And I'm sure lots of people will probably be nodding along and maybe even DM you with some.

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. I reckon there'll be loads of people saying, God, it took you long enough.

Helena: like said, I still don't have one, so I'm probably like ⁓ last person that hasn't got one.

Greg Simmons: I can highly recommend them then.

Helena: Okay, will, you know what, I might have to, I've been resisting. I don't even have a microwave.

Greg Simmons: We could just go, we can just sack this sustainability conversation off. We could just talk about air frying if you want.

Helena: Exactly, how to build a better life. ⁓ that. ⁓ you for that, Greg. I think it's just really nice just to get to know you a little bit more, to see what's going on in your life outside the craziness that is work that obviously consumes a huge amount of your time. Now, ⁓ POC, we've been really lucky to work with Moose for the last few years. And I know in my previous life, before I even started POC, I worked with the Moose team really closely on the business side of stuff. And even at POC, we're really lucky to have such a wonderful toy community. So, you know, we, get to kind of see how all of the toy companies are kind of working from the inside. what really fascinates me is actually is how different Moose is and as a company and how you operate as a company. ⁓ I'd love to dig a little bit into that later. But we get started there is kind of, you know, what brought you into the world of sustainability? You know, kind of, I'd love to know your journey into this crazy world.

Greg Simmons: I'll let you. So that's actually a pretty, that's a pretty deep question. Cause I've got my checkered past, I've got my yin and yang. So my background is actually more than two decades in professional motorsport. And in that was also working on some very unusual vehicles and unusual engines and getting involved with manufacturer programs. The first hybrid I worked on at Le Mans was actually way back in 19, I'm gonna show my age now, in 1998. Yeah, which was and there was a so the world is sort of, you know, efficiency and sustainability is actually is is a lot of similarities in motorsport than there is in sustainability or really go into them and somebody saying that sounds like a lot of old cobblers, but I'll definitely hold my own up in that argument. But but then, you know, we roll a clock for clock forward and always. So we started with designing electric vehicle recharging points in in the UK in 2003. And I was personally my business in 20, it was December the 6th, 2006. So now I've got almost 20 years ago. We fitted our, ⁓ Westminster City Council, we fit our first on street vehicle recharging point just opposite the entrance to the Lyceum. ⁓ So, so, and then we ended up with ⁓ of them all around the world and sold out of that business. And then, you know, you the last thing I was working on before I moved.

Helena: one.

Greg Simmons: back here was actually I was the chief engineer for a high efficiency internal combustion engine program, looking at bringing fuel reduction in and then ended up at Moose as a head of engineering. And then I had a sabbatical actually went back in to develop large scale renewable hydrogen generation assets for one of the energy companies here. And then I ended up talking with Yos from Moose again, and there was a passing conversation and then it ended up that I was ended up back. there in the sustainability role. ⁓ So yeah. ⁓

Helena: Isn't that just fascinating? You're an engineer in your heart and fascinating that you did all of that in the motorsport industry and actually just how world of sustainability, ⁓ differently has been part of that conversation for so much longer than the toy industry. ⁓

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It's been one of the enjoyable things you talk about transferable skill sets because I'm, you know, I'm chartered with the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in the UK, big plug there for them. And, and, you know, one of the great things is actually having that resource and seeing, you know, a global discussion on it. And there are a lot of things going on a lot of other industries that are transferable, but also the skill sets are transferable.

Helena: Yes. Hmm

Greg Simmons: And it's not just in engineering. It's also when we talk about, you know, areas like, you know, finance and accounting, you know, these people also can be imported over into understanding like some of the reporting requirements that we get within the sustainability field. So, no, it's easy. It's been a, it's been really fun to, to actually go from, you know, just the pure engineering and then get into the sustainability. But actually when I look back on it, they're kind of intertwined, you know, it's all about.

Helena: Hmm

Greg Simmons: material sciences and processes and I've got X amount of energy, I don't want to use less. And then, you know, so it's a very, very similar in regards to the core principles.

Helena: But I guess the industries are very different. If you look at the motorsport industry and the motor industry, so much bigger than the toy industry. And I guess I don't know whether the money that's put into research and development is so much more. And actually just even how the car industry is changing to kind of more of a leasing model rather than an ownership model. You know, just there's so much further ahead in there. And actually, probably going to go off on totally different tangent than what we expected, but I'm totally happy to do that because it's so fascinating. ⁓

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm.

Helena: Because in a way you get to see what we want the industry to be, but you've done it in another industry. So for you to kind of take that over into this industry, obviously with the challenges and complexities that there is within the toy industry. But like you said, there's so many similarities within that. kind of, so you go from engineering and of ⁓ the know, Westminster council in London, ⁓ back Australia. ⁓ and to work at a toy company who's super innovative. And with your engineering mind, did you start working within like the toy R &D team first? Is that kind of where you landed? Or did you land straight into a sustainability role?

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. total transparency. Because I was still working on this project. you ⁓ when you ⁓ certain certain projects, ⁓ have to physically be there because I reverse emigrated back to Australia after living 20 years in England. There was a I actually out. Yeah, just look the map. And I said, I'm going to get a job within five K's, you know, three miles of my house. ⁓ And there was advert for this company called Moose. ⁓ And, yeah, so they'd never had a sort of a head of engineering role and they went just, you know, it was just coincidence. And I'd sort of made the decision at that stage because I didn't really want to travel. And it's really important when you work in say professional motorsport that you go to the circuit. So if you're not prepared to travel and don't do it, I'd give that advice. And then if you do want to do it, then you know, you can see the world being fortunate enough to do that as well. But it was one of the things moving back. was like, actually, I just needed a bit of stability for a time. And it was like, all right, let's move out of professional sport and move back into industry for a bit. And let's face it, racing cars are a lot like toys. They're just a bit bigger.

Helena: big toys aren't they? ⁓ I love that. So you're like, okay, this is where I want to live. This is the company that's near me. I did something pretty similar quite a few years ago. This is where I want to live. This is who's near me. So I have to work there. How do I get a job there? So is that that kind of how do I get a job there? Who do I know? Who do I know somebody who knows somebody? How do I how do I influence this? And so you manage to influence them with your magic of genius to create this role.

Greg Simmons: It's actually the first job I've formally applied for. Yeah. Yeah.

Helena: Wow! I love that! So you've got my job and you're like, yeah, okay, I got the job. Let's see how this goes. And I guess the biggest worry is, are you going to be really interested engaged in it? I suppose, because if you've done this kind of sexy engineering stuff where you're on the forefront of innovation, how do you, how do you make sure that you still get joy in what you're doing? If you decide to do something different, Hey Greg.

Greg Simmons: I think that they always say that if you, um, if you enjoy what you do, you don't work a day in your life. And there is a real, and the, in the area, especially in sustainability, this is, you you don't, you know, if you don't need motivation, this is actually a really good place to be for myself. Like, so I don't, I don't need the motivation. You get up every day and go, I know I'm going to be doing something. So, and, and now we're getting a clear understanding of what that something is and actually where it really brings real commercial benefit to the business.

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: and not just hitting sustainability goals. That's only part of it. know, that there is, that it's actually a really interesting time. And so the opportunity that actually that's there is incredibly interesting to me. you know, whilst I've been involved in motor racing, there's been other industries I've had, I've had several companies at the same time. And, ⁓ you know, so there's a lot of things that outside of purely just say, you know, cars and all the other bits and pieces ⁓ I find interesting. And it's actually here at the moment, I feel that actually it's a good place to work. I'm enjoying it. And I always measure that is like, why do I get up and do it? If I'm enjoying it, hey, happy days. Let it continue.

Helena: Yeah, love that. And so if I go back to them to pardon me, the journey, the sustainability journey of Moose and, and I used to work really closely with Dai when I was on a business facing role many, many, years ago before I started products of change. And then Dai got in touch with me when I started products of Moose want to go on their journey. Not quite sure where to start. And so then, you know, in like, well, you know, you've got to go and.

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm.

Helena: have a baseline, look at your impact where you're a beginner, go out and do all of those little bits. And then it seemed like out of nowhere, probably within a year and a half, there was a team on board. You'd mapped your impact. You were just like, we are doing this. So there was some real force behind this, you know, kind of on the inside, cause I just had a conversation with her, then she goes off and then comes back a year and a half later with you and a team of people that are engaged. Like what happened in that time? And the guess is what?

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm.

Helena: four years ago maybe?

Greg Simmons: Yeah, I think that the thing that really kicked it off for him, you know, the, first, the first area that was really under, um, so some kind of commercial press to move would have been our packaging. And so the idea that actually we were going to move away from, you know, packaging formats and materials to the ones that you can use the word more sustainable that are using high recycled content that use the materials that are recyclable curbside at the end of life. You know, this was actually probably the really the first area. So when I came back to Intamoose, we sat in an area called Creative Services, who's actually with the packaging engineering team. you know, it was just, you know, kind of, was probably, we were probably in their own section of the business, but at the same time, you know, you've got to sit somewhere ⁓ and, know, the, the, the ability to sort of sit down and actually come up those better designs was the driver. mean, one of the first examples we banned

Helena: Mmm.

Greg Simmons: PVC in our thermoplastic blisters because they're a contaminant in the PET waste stream. so looking at something as simple as that, this is like things on its head. ⁓ they managed to do, us ⁓ a business and our supply chain, we were able to do that. And then from there, it's just got better and better and better. really the drivers, I think, were also the consumer sentiment. ⁓ And then ⁓

Helena: and Mm.

Greg Simmons: Well, maybe there's multiple actually, because we've been reporting into what Walmart's one of our biggest customers and they have Project Gigaton, they've had Project Gigaton for many, many years now. And part of the dealers, they're actually very, you on the forefront of saying, you know, want to clean up our supply chain, remove a gigaton of waste, you know, hence the name. And so you had maybe a sort of a confluence of pressures. had like, is it a little bit internal, they're saying, okay, we've got

Helena: Hmm.

Greg Simmons: you know, out and where that driver to come out and remove PVC from that was from APCO, the Australian packaging covenant. has been a signature since 2012, signatory for since 2012. So they're saying we've got to remove materials of concern from our packaging. So it's like, all right, let's embrace that. And that's now happening in every one of our developed markets. Then you've got the consumer going, actually, how do I make a more informed choice over what I'm buying? But also our customer, you know, the

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: the Walmarts, the Targets, the Amazons. Also, they have their own sustainability goals. So I'd say there was multiple reasons for it to get going.

Helena: And how did that, it Paul and Manny that said, need to do this, die, get somebody to do this, put a team together? was it more like how much came from the top down and how much came from kind of just organically kind of finding your way through to what those impact areas are through people around you, you know?

Greg Simmons: So I think maybe the easiest way to answer that is that it was more of a, wasn't a, you know, this hugely formulated plan, but it was a top-down instruction. Where Paul had signed our letter of commitment to set a net zero target on January the 20th, 2023. And so in that, you've got a lot of work, you know, almost, you know, between six and 12 months of work and preparing the owners of the company to actually sign that commitment off. So, you know, the decision was very, very clear. It's like, actually, this is something that we're going to move forwards with. And that was, I think, solidified by Paul signing our letter of commitment to set a science-based target to be net zero.

Helena: Yeah, I love that because actually, I think so many big companies get caught up in the bureaucracy of who's responsible for doing what. But actually, think, like you said, Paul just signing commitment, I guess just sends the signal of what you're doing. And then it's up to everybody within their departments to figure out how they do that.

Greg Simmons: I think we even announced it, we used the LA Toy Fair. think it actually event that was actually assigned ⁓ coincide with. ⁓ it was very deliberate and strategic decision that made by the owners the business. So yeah, pretty cool.

Helena: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's amazing because I know, I mean, I know some, And I know that conversations that happen in boardrooms of ⁓ not privately owned companies actually, maybe that's the beauty of being a privately owned company that you can say, we're just going to do this. ⁓

Greg Simmons: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So and now there were lot of people, is some people who aren't in the business at the moment who were actually part of to doing that. And that was, you know, they need some, you know, there was one of my old colleagues, Chloe, was the sustainability side, you know, she had a lot ⁓ input into actually getting the owners across the line, educating them as well, you know, so it was a real sort of team effort, I think, at that stage. ⁓ And it was, I it ⁓

Helena: and

Greg Simmons: it really did allow then everything else to sort of fall into place. ⁓ Certainly not micromanagers and having that broad brush, okay, this is what we're going to go and do certainly did make it easier. And you know, since then we've gone on. was just last year, we were able to actually have our ⁓ by our SPTI validated. ⁓ yeah, you know, we're all on the journey now.

Helena: and Amazing. You're making that progress. And actually, just so people are listening in, I know that you've got commitments that take you till 2040. What are your overarching commitments? then also, first of all, what are your overarching commitments? Just go with that, Greg.

Greg Simmons: So we have end-of-term targets. That is to be a ⁓ zero scope one and two by, I think it's 2030. And of that is also to be using 100 % renewable energy in our owned and operated sites. So that's actually, most recently we've actually just set up our pathway. where we're now, ⁓ looks like we've well before that date, head office will be 100 % renewable. We've just renegotiated our energy contracts with our supplier and ⁓ you know the ⁓ the whole scheme things it's now material. We have a pathway that's established and now what we do is move forwards from where we are ramping in the amount of renewables ⁓ over next two to three years ⁓ till reach 100%. So we're looking to do that at our other offices as well as well.

Helena: That's amazing. And then I know you've got your stretch targets that take you to 2040. Is that right? Which are kind of more related. Yeah.

Greg Simmons: So that is absolute net zero over scopes one, two and three. So that's the big work. So part of the near term one is also supplier engagement. So we have to engage with a certain number of our suppliers and the goal is for the certain number of them to set the science aligned target as well. And so, you know, that's been one of the areas that is obviously the most work because it's involving third parties on involving our supply chain.

Helena: Yeah.

Greg Simmons: confidence level right now is very good. We have a great relationship with our supply chain. We actually, ⁓ run the, ⁓ something very similar to the CDP supply chain survey. and we, the first year that we did it, we had a 67 % response response rate from our supply chain. They say that the first time you do this, the average, ⁓ response rate is 10%. ⁓ the last time we did it, which was last year, we had a So every one of our suppliers responded and the quality of the data was because we've got one of our sustainability team basing our China office. shout out to Tswin ⁓ Lin. She is a legend in dealing and talking with our ⁓ vendors and engaging them on a very personal level. And we're able to go through and we can check power bills and look at gas bills. And we actually see real numbers. ⁓

Helena: Yeah.

Greg Simmons: And we're confident that what we're seeing on paper is correct as well. So that's it. You you can't go in and just send this off and say, you know, you could have any number down. You do need to go and ask the question. And so yeah, it's been, you know, to see the response from our supply chain has actually been fantastic. Like it's been really good.

Helena: And I think that's probably a lot to do with your relationship, like you said, with your supply chain, how much they trust you, how much maybe if you say you're gonna do something, you do it. It feels like you've got a partnership with your supply chain rather than a dictatorial, we are doing this. If you want our business, you've got to do this. Feels very different.

Greg Simmons: ⁓ Yes, that is actually an area that we strive for. We was out there last year for couple of weeks and we were going through lot of our withdrawal, our print vendors and quite a number of our larger OEMs. One ⁓ of things that we when we our presentations, we do a multilingual to make, unfortunately you to inflict bit of global PowerPoint. You know, the one of the things that we do is we try and explain, you know, like why we're asking for a lot of this sustainability information. And like, you know, why do we want all this packaging information? Why do we want this information about, you know, the attribution of our business to to their factories and science like that. And it was actually being able to sit down and talk to him about our legal requirements, our reporting requirements. So now we've got. know, extended producer responsibility taxes that, know, over packaging, over product, over battery waste electronics, you know, so we need that data and that is a legal requirement for us to supply it. But then also you've got your, ⁓ your requirements now for sustainability reporting ASRS. But on the other side, you know, we report into Project Gigaton. To do that, we use CDP, ⁓ know, carbon disclosure project as

Helena: Yep. Mm.

Greg Simmons: the central data collection piece. And we do that for both and for Target US. And in doing that, we need their data. And so when you can actually explain, sit down with them and go, hey, this is the reason why, they're actually incredibly receptive. Who knew that just being nice asking and explaining what you need the information for would lead to a good outcome?

Helena: That's the only way you get stuff done though, isn't it? Properly in a really meaningful way. And I know that you worked with the team in turn, you put a whole program together, didn't you, to engage your supply chain. And I know we spoke about this last year and you just really simplified it, Greg. And I'd love for you to explain that to me because then hopefully all this can kind of take some of those simplification ideas away and kind of maybe look at how they integrate this across their supply chain too, because where the biggest opportunity for reduction is, isn't it? whole supply chain and material choices as you go down that line. How did you with your supply chain to do that? ⁓

Greg Simmons: just, you just got to be really nice. I'm just going to try like, you know, they, they, they, yeah, that's actually, be honest, that's a big part of it. Maybe coming back to one of your first points, you said that something different about Moose, one of the feedback that we get is that we get, we do engage with our supply chain differently to a lot of other toy brands. And it's just a very personal, you know, cause we're all in the same boat. You know, we, you know, our problems we pass down to the suppliers.

Helena: It must be nice to people.

Greg Simmons: But some of the problems that we get, we get it passed down from our customers as well. So it's that, you know, that everyone's sort of linking arms and you've got to share information. know, do if we're using a material that we're now got an ⁓ additional charge because the region doesn't want it, what that does is that actually devalues their by increasing the cost of goods sold. So what do they want to do? They want to be competitive too. You know, so I think the main thing is actually just being approachable, nice and explaining the why. so then they can go, I get it. I why, cause they're business people like any everybody else ⁓ and want. Yeah. And everyone's got business stresses. and what you want to be able to do is you say, this is the reason why. then they go, ⁓ okay.

Helena: They want business, want friends, they want to partner with you.

Greg Simmons: And then, know, party, the next part of that is actually finding the right person to talk to. So it's very common, you know, when you're working with dislocated supply chains and design offices, that you may not be talking to exactly the right person. But you know, when you go there and you say, this is the information, suddenly someone will turn around pretty quickly and go, ah, you need to go and speak to so-and-so. then, you know, it's about building relationships.

Helena: Yeah, totally agree. I businesses are full of people. You get to the right person. They unlocks opportunity. To me, it comes down to the jaws, doesn't it? let's dig a little bit into ⁓ EPR, because I know you mentioned EPR and I know there's a huge amount of legislation happening globally. ⁓ know the sustainability world has kind of been doing the okie-okie for the last couple of years, especially with what's going on in the US. But we can't get away from the fact that legislation is here. EPR is coming down fast in Europe.

Greg Simmons: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Helena: in the UK included in that, even in America, even though federally there are things happening, all state-bound, there's a lot of EPR coming in. And I know there's some people that we're working with who are kind of working with their design teams and even their buying teams to kind of integrate decision levers on EPR to make sure that you're mitigating the tax at the end, because the design team wouldn't normally think about an EPR tax. They'd just normally design to the best brief with the

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. No.

Helena: with the best material for that product, there wouldn't be a thought, there wouldn't be an end of life thought. So how have you kind of that back into the team to be thinking of that end of life because of all the EPR? Very complex because it's all different rules in different places.

Greg Simmons: So. So stick into packaging. Because we have an involvement, we say APCO here. ⁓ aligned to many, ⁓ other ⁓ bodies throughout the world. ⁓ we see in their recommendations is mirrored in North America, is mirrored in the UK and Europe. generally, ⁓ us, actually, it's a good place to start. And that consolidation of materials,

Helena: Let's go.

Greg Simmons: designers wanted, you know, haven't met a designer yet that would turn around and say, actually, I want to make this really polluting thing that's hazardous to the environment, never going to happen that conversation. ⁓ You know, so no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put lead heavy metals back in it. And, you know, all the radioactive, no, it's not gonna happen. We're in jail. they, you know, it's not like pushing on open door, the door's well open, they just go, how do we do it better? But for to do it better,

Helena: I'm this on purpose today, they're stupid!

Greg Simmons: the supply chain needs to be set up. So the procurement teams need to know what to order. The factories need to be ready to receive that order. So a lot of the stuff is actually happens in the background about readiness. So when somebody says, hey, I'm going to use, you know, I want to, is the choice I'm going to do? I'm going to do, you know, how do I do it? These are your choices. So it's almost like just changing the menu.

Helena: Mm. Mm.

Greg Simmons: ⁓ and consolidating stuff down. you own, the choices are, you know, the ones that you want. So when you're working outside that remit, you know that it's not the norm. So part of it is actually normalizing your behaviors ⁓ the needs ⁓ the capabilities of the supply chain. So inadvertently, when somebody goes and says, hey, I'm going to do a, You know, I've got a packaging format and it's going to have cardboard and it's going to have a blister in it. The blister automatically is going to have 30 % post-consumer recycle. And in our case, our first port of call when it comes down to say cardboard in packaging is FSC recycled, which is a hundred percent recycled fiber. So instantly you have an extremely high level of recycled content that is recyclable at the end of life. The designer didn't have to do anything. They can focus on the product.

Helena: Yeah, See, why don't all the people think about it so simply like that? Because the amount of conversations I have, the people that are doing it and doing it right, like you guys are just like, this is not that hard. Just reduce it down into these are the best options. Let's just get those best options out there. Other people really faff with it. we need to try and do that. ⁓ crazy actually, isn't that complicated when you really reduce it down. So let's go back to some of things that you did in packaging. So you took the PVC away. I know we had Wendy come to expo last year and take, you know, take the audience with some of the stuff that you've done, but I'd love you just to mention some of those, Greg, while we're here.

Greg Simmons: Yeah, There's Wendy and Lauren in LA office, they're legends. know, the, yeah, and also, and she's got, one of her colleagues there, Lauren, also, ⁓ absolute consummate professional in this space. You know, there's, so ⁓ so oil-based ink, everything's only aqueous at the moment. We... ⁓

Helena: up, Quentin. ⁓

Greg Simmons: have removed or reduced. So the use of we've set we've actually established our packaging sustainability. So maybe I'll come start the effort instead of getting into the micro bit. So we've got five packaging sustainability goals. And you know, this is I'm going to have to test myself here. the first one is, you know, using recycled ⁓ and materials our feedstocks that are recyclable at the end of life. You know, that's the the first one and that's where the system has to be set up to enable it. From there we also have plastic minimization. So plastic is not the enemy, especially when you're talking about security in store. So this is one of those trade-offs is that yes, you can choose ⁓ purely and paper and fiber, but we have this term shop soiling, know, or theft ⁓ and the owner gets billed for that. So

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: If it's found that the packaging is not robust enough to actually sustain a certain amount of in-store abuse, then this is failed as a business, sorry, as a product. We also have ⁓ plastic free. So, the area that we actually use that in ⁓ e-comm. That's the ⁓ area. we and we've had some really great results. So with Amazon they what was called ⁓ Sioc, now is SIP, in product packaging. ⁓ can do it completely plastic So no plastic glues, plastic tape, all paper, so it's a cardboard, even Taking out poly bags, you know, LDP poly bags are incredibly effective at reducing abrasion damage from transit. If you've got like a figurine that has had like 30 or 40 decoration ops, and the last thing you want to do is have it chafed in the packaging, and then it's damaged when it gets to the consumer. And so poly bags are extremely good at preventing that. But then again, you go, well, we've got all these little plastic bags. So then we go over to tissue paper. and actually proving that it works and getting everyone used to it. So very quickly, you can come up with these fantastic packaging formats that are completely plastic free. One of the other ones, so we've got two more to go. So ⁓ one of the other ones is called Easy Separation. So Easy Separation ⁓ is having where you have ⁓ cardboard and have a blister. And what they do is they come apart and they come clean.

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: So there is no heat sealing. There is no adhesive attached to the PET blister. And what that means is that you do not contaminate the blister and it has the highest recycling value to a materials recycling facility as it can. So what we're doing is we're thinking about the next person that engages with this, not the, you know, the consumer's going to hopefully put them in the right bin. ⁓ that has the highest value possible. And the final one we have in packaging ⁓ ⁓ minimization. So

Helena: ⁓

Greg Simmons: looking at how we can prevent the shipping of air. And in some countries we have some legislation like Korea is one of those places they have a national standard that constrains that. ⁓

Helena: Yeah, they have a special element there of how much space there can be around the product. ⁓

Greg Simmons: They can, that's absolutely correct. And how you calculate it. so, know, it's it. So the first thing is setting up those packaging sustainability goals and they're not very, they have a lot, you can, you can interpret them lots of different ways, but that sense, it's the same for everyone. So you may not use one, so you'll always use one. That's the goal. You might use a couple, but what you're not going to do is not use any. So you allow people the flexibility to choose the right packaging sustainability goal for the item.

Helena: Okay. Yeah, and then, like you say, if they will, we managed to do that one now we can try another one now we've managed to get that one. ⁓ we've done all four, you know, and I love the way that you managed to attach the blister to the cardboard without the glue because you kind of engineer it just to sit in it, didn't you?

Greg Simmons: Yeah, there's a little, yeah, so there's, creating like a little interlocking structure with the fiber, with the cardboard. So what you're doing is you're creating a mechanical structure that then prevents it from easily being pulled apart in store. It offers enough resistance to prevent, you know, in store to shop soiling or, you know, sort of opened. But at the same time, when you take it home, It actually is, basically it's easy to separate the two and then have a better recycling, better potential recycling outcome.

Helena: Yeah, I love it. Sorry for throwing that on you, Greg, and you having to try and remember all four of those. Five of them, sorry.

Greg Simmons: Five. It's five. We got the same for product as well though. That's the other thing. ⁓

Helena: say on the product piece it would be let's dig into that because obviously packaging isn't easier but it's the first thing that gets thrown away so there are more options because there's only so many materials that you make packaging from but when it comes to the actual product that gets harder question mark

Greg Simmons: much. Just get a lot harder. because it, you know, one of the things that you have with packaging is in this goes down, all of our developed markets, you've got curbside collection, you got home collection. No other industry, like say has, ⁓ you look at electronic waste electronics, household goods, tools, sports goods.

Helena: Hmm.

Greg Simmons: There is nothing has a home collection. ⁓ Any like, you know, it doesn't just doesn't, it's not there. And you then have to find and be able to guide, you know, people that have those material, you know, have those things. So what do I do with it next? And so it's a much, much bigger challenge, ⁓ just because there's a huge component of the, of the materials recovery supply chain, but just it's not present. That's just not there. And so that's one of the challenges. So, but

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: The first ones that we look at is using recycled feedstock. So that's an important one for us. ⁓ also reduces the carbon footprint of our toys directly. And it does it very, very well. And then also looking at non-fossil based as well. So trying to find other sources for the polymers and the materials that we're actually using too. So, you know, it is a lot harder. So here we have recycled plushes actually relatively straightforward near where head office is. Fortunately, ⁓ we're really by quite a large ⁓ textile recyclers we did a little bit of work with and said, yes, actually this is just like any other polyester piece of fabric. E-waste is...

Helena: Is that where you've got your recycle plush from then? Rather than like an R pet from a bottle? Is it actually from a textile to textile rather than a bottle?

Greg Simmons: So RPET that we get, so the that we do domestically in Australia is different, much, different to where we get our recycled feedstocks for our recycled plush. ⁓ Because they're completely geographically dislocated. But now we're also investigating molded. So instead of just looking at textiles,

Helena: I'm with you.

Greg Simmons: We've been doing a lot of work to say, what else is available? In our main materials, whether they're an ABS or they're a PP, we are now seeing the accessibility of those polymers coming on the market that have GRS certification that we can see the chain of custody. And that's actually a key part of it is that you can't make, you can't greenwash, you can't make these claims about using these materials and not be able to absolutely back them up.

Helena: Yeah. Bye.

Greg Simmons: If you cannot do this, do not do this.

Helena: Yeah, you can't, yeah and there was so much greenwashing happening what four years ago which still is some happening but not as much because of regulation and I think everybody's learned that you can't do that anymore but you're right ⁓ you can't showcase where that materials come from maybe you shouldn't be buying it because it's probably not what you think it is. ⁓

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. Well, that's the thing. we go through when we're using these materials, the first thing we do is say show us a paperwork, we need to know the chain of custody, we need to know the providence, we need to know that we're confident about, you know, that it is actually a recycled polymer. This is actually getting now, especially in Europe. we do we, we import directly into Spain, Spain has a tax when you cross the border, where you have to pay a levy with your import duties on the non-recycled plastic in your packaging. And the only way that you can actually qualify, GRS certification is not enough. There is a specific EN standard that you must comply with. And so we're going through the certification process because that's what we're aspiring to do is say, actually, you know, we use recycle, we need to get a discount for it. But yeah, it's getting, it's now the requirement over the validation of those claims is now

Helena: Thanks. Yeah.

Greg Simmons: starting to become, you know, it's a requirement. It's a need.

Helena: Do you think that as, and I know there were a few years ahead from digital product passports rolling out within toy. Do you think that once the DPPs roll out within toy, that's going to help that? you think, it help the ⁓ day of that? you think, or is it all to be, to be confirmed to be discussed?

Greg Simmons: I think it's to be confirmed because the kind of the example I've given you with Spain, is a national tax that happens at the import. And so what they're doing on the importation laws is completely disacclined from the DPP. you know, think there are always going to be these conflicts, you know, in this ⁓ space a digital passport or not.

Helena: all these little anomalies that kind of come in for all these other markets. So then when we talk about, thank you for that Greg, when we talk about the actual product, you guys have been, you're always innovating. I love them. You did a huge amount of innovation on glitter, didn't you? And it's your new collectable products. ⁓ glitter, whatever new word's gonna be for it, sparkling zero.

Greg Simmons: Yeah, glitters my pet hate. Well, no, it's all right. I'm not hating on the name, but we actually did a lot of work before the EU regulation came in. And it came in like a freight train, because there was no leeway. I think it was September 23 was when it came in. And it was just, it was like no grace period. You're getting it. That's it. And they've kind of been telling industry for a few years about it. And so it was just fortunate that we'd already started to say, Hey, look, let's find alternatives. and the, outcome of that was when it came in, actually our skew list was not significantly changed, but you had some, some ones that a lot of people were like, like instant snow has been around for ages, but solidity and polyacrylate. you when you look at requirement is this ⁓ synthetic polymer microparticle regulation, ⁓ it's got three words in it. It's synthetic. Is it a polymer? Is a microparticle? know, and the, you know, when you, when you qualify it as, yeah, so we had products that had, you know, ⁓ super absorbed polymers in like instance, no, and they were just, we just had to remove them. Yeah. ⁓

Helena: You didn't stop making the product, or you just removed those and found a different...

Greg Simmons: We actually had to remove the deadlines were pretty strict. So was actually you had to drop it like pretty much straight away. And but to be fair, it wasn't we weren't grossly affected. And that was actually because there was a lot of work up front. So we were looking at, you know, glitters that had glitter alternatives that were Micah based. Now, we ⁓ our main Micah we use is not mine. So we actually use a synthetic

Helena: Thank you.

Greg Simmons: mica that's made in a furnace. So if there's any negative connotations that would go about the procurement of that as a mine substance, we try and circumvent it and say, pretty much everything that we use is actually synthetic. It also allows us to control the which ⁓ a key of making polissa look good. ⁓ So can have

Helena: Okay. Yeah.

Greg Simmons: Like people are familiar with micro in automotive paints and in makeup.

Helena: face so people don't know it so it's a rock isn't it?

Greg Simmons: It is. There's a whole family of micas. that was one of them. then we had, we developed one that was actually the substrate instead of being PET was paper. That really well. also looking, but the problem is with that one, when you put it in mold, it doesn't really pop. So we're now looking at an aluminum or a completely metal base, which does pop when you put it in mold. can control the particle size. So now instead of like just saying, you just put PIT clearant, you have to choose the right material for the application to get the visual result actually. So yeah, there was quite a bit of work going into it.

Helena: Yeah, isn't that amazing though? Because normally these things are just picked off the shelf. That's the glitter, that's the colour you want to pick it off the shelf, that's the prize. Because actually you're having to go out and find innovative ways to do this that aren't micro plastics, that are a polymer, that break the law basically. ⁓

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. But in that we saw, in that discovery process, we found lots of greenwashing. People were going, oh yeah, we've got biodegradable glitter. And you go, yeah, OK, let's look at the paperwork. And you get into the MSDS sheets, and very quickly you realize that it's a PLA. And yes, PLA has a vegetable source in regards from polymer, but the regulations define it's a synthetic polymer. We were getting told it was compostable. PLA is composable in a controlled scenario. But they were being ⁓ presented as that just degrades in the environment, which is absolute. It's just an absolute lie. And so ⁓ that's thing about having to make sure that it passes a desktop due before even moving forwards and looking at designing something with it.

Helena: when it's in place in blue. Yeah. Yeah. think, I think somebody once said to me, sustainability is only expensive if you do the wrong thing, because you've just wasted a lot of money. It's actually doing the right thing. can actually be positive for your business because you're mitigating taxes and you're actually doing something that's better. But you know, if you, if you don't, if you don't look into the detail, you just waste a huge amount of money on something that just doesn't tick the right boxes.

Greg Simmons: You Yeah, absolutely. But that's actually a huge part of sustainability now. you know, we talked about when we started, where we sit, you know, our sustainability strategy and all the other bits and pieces. And, you know, we talk about, you know, internally about bringing, you know, the three things. So we have, we've got three sustainability pillars. So we have Mission Zero, which is our 2040 Net Zero goal. We've got project circularity that looks after the materials that we're using in our product, packaging, and the processes as well. But then also we have environmental regeneration. So what we try and do is everything that we do has to sit within one of those three pillars. And if it doesn't sit properly, you don't do it. So what it does is it creates the guard rails to work with it. But then on that, we also have, well, how does it benefit the business? What is the outcome? So you've got your sustainability pillars, but then you've got your sustainability outcomes. And so our three outcomes are, you know, are we commercially competitive? That's about the relationship. are we bringing financial value? The clue is in the name. And then are we improving the sustainability? ⁓ the ways that actually you've got to think, I'm not doing this in an idealistic fashion. What I'm doing is I'm aligning with and guardrails. I'm aligning what our sustainability goals are, but I need to enhance the commercial value. And I need to enhance ⁓ our...

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: our financial value as well. I cannot sit down and think that we have the grace to be able to say, well, you can have it, but it costs more.

Helena: It doesn't work like that. And this is what I'd love to dig into a little bit because I know that we've had a lot of conversation about this as well in the past where ⁓ people say this costs us more money, so we can't do it. And they might look you and say, well, they're a private entity based out in Australia. They're not constrained with the same ⁓ that we are as a US-based company that's got a big board that says, no, you can't do this. But actually, everything that you've done, you've made sure that is commercially viable.

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helena: And I think that to me is the, is the genius behind all the stuff that you've been doing because you're enabling it to get to market, not a higher price. Cause we know consumers don't buy that. The consumers, sustainability isn't the lead. It actually should be the brand, the product, the price and sustainability should just be how it's made. And you guys have managed, ⁓ you're on the journey of doing it. And I'd love to.

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm.

Helena: do you, what is the magic behind that, Greg? How does that work? ⁓

Greg Simmons: I think you actually just said it, know, sustain it, ⁓ is a bit where sustainability has to be a bit of smoking yours in some respects and being that ⁓ just has to come as a characteristic of it. You know, especially in toys, it's the play pattern. It's about the experience that a child is going to get ⁓ using product. And, ⁓ ⁓ is key parts. It's form fit function, the play pattern, ⁓ the story behind it, the association. These are all of the things that. You know, that is, is what those toys exist for. And what ⁓ job is and what I consider sustainability to be is we need to dovetail into that. And we need to, ⁓ need to be able to bring all of those good stuff. And we just need to also improve the sustainability, you know, a little bit in in the, in the back wings, you know, in the backstalls, know, they, ⁓ actually where we need to, where I think is important because kids you know, one of our, a young girl, a boy sitting in right now in our, you know, center of our demographic, you know, the toys that we make in eight, eight year old, um, they're looking at it going, Oh my God, I really want this. This is something I want to play with hours and hours and hours and hours. They're not thinking, Hey man, it's got FSC recycled. Um, it's got, it's, it's got, um, 30 % recycled P E T and that's just doesn't come into it.

Helena: Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think it's up to business to do that. Definitely. Oh my gosh, Greg, there were so many questions that I had for you that we haven't even got through. You know, we're a brand licensing industry. We're going to talk about how you work really closely with the BBC and an eater and we can't not have that conversation. I know we're going to talk about circularity. We're just going to have to do a Greg 2.0 at some point later on in the year and we'll go into circularity. But let's talk about your relationship with the BBC because I think that's been

Greg Simmons: Let's do that now because you can't forget those guys. Yep. Yep. Yeah. What?

Helena: Transformation for the industry, actually.

Greg Simmons: I think big shout out to Anita on that one. ⁓ Working with Anita makes it makes the job a pleasure and it also makes it very easy when the licensor is actually very, ⁓ clear about what their sustainability goals are. ⁓ makes it so much easier. And be able to communicate that within our business.

Helena: Yay, Anita!

Greg Simmons: And actually, you know, to have it in Las Vegas, you know, a fireside chat with Wendy, turned, you know, where then go, ⁓ and he's an angel. know, ⁓ absolutely awesome. You know, ⁓ that's actually how you get things done. It's everybody links up. And so now to think, we're hearing what the licensors want.

Helena: I don't need to, I'm in this conversation.

Greg Simmons: it then is passed to us our responsibility to listen to that and actually go, all right, we've got to deliver on it. And then we work with our supply chain and all of our OEMs and our key partners to actually deliver it. So no, I think it is absolutely awesome to be able to work with the BBC. it's one of the really enjoyable components of the job. ⁓ They're super passionate about it. They know what they want.

Helena: Mm. ⁓ Mm.

Greg Simmons: and they can actually communicate that really clearly and hopefully we're clear in how we can respond. We'd love to do it faster, but at the same time, I think having that transparency as well has been good and we try and support them in other areas as well when it comes down to improving the sustainability of all of the products that we supply.

Helena: Love that. I think Anita and the whole team at the BBC, know, through Bluey and BBC Earth have really kind of put their line in the sun. You know, them as a business have got science-based targets, you know, they need to reduce their impact. Licensing business is not hidden away. It's very much part of that. So how do they take, you know...

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Scope, was it scope three cat 14 or something?

Helena: as well. It might be cat 16, we don't know, it be getting moved. There might be a new category being created. Let's see. put together a methodology two years ago that's still up for approval. It's going through the motions. So let's see. How many of the licensors that you work with give you targets? Or is the BBC the main one that said this is where we're heading?

Greg Simmons: Is it 6th? Yeah, okay. So BBC is main one, but we've had some really good wins with some of our other licensors, especially when it comes down to packaging formats, ⁓ that we actually contracted and constrained, the design was constrained by the licensor ⁓ for ⁓ negative There was no malicious intent. was actually, ⁓ you ⁓ to certain things because that was actually what we were contracted to do. ⁓ And one of them was actually to move away from a packaging format that was 100 % plastic. And we changed that to end up being around about 40, 60, 40 % PET, 60 % fiber. And that was through engaging with them. It was through explaining with them its collaboration. And it was also readdressing some areas, some legacy areas within our licensing contracts. So I think it had... I think given the right example, the right requirement, the right driver that everyone will actually want to come to the party. But another example, Disney, is another big licensor. Absolutely, run their supply locked program to educate their supply chain on how to ⁓ become net zero business. Very, very conscientious ⁓ as well. So I think we get it. think the ⁓ one thing stands out with working with the BBC

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: is having somebody like Anisa there definitely to be very, very clear and very supportive. And really that's actually just gold dust.

Helena: I agree. I think it's, think that because Anita, yes, leads sustainability, but she's, she, she wears sustainability as the hat because she's a business lead. So to me, actually, I think it's the business leads understanding where they're going as a, you know, what, what they want to achieve as a company and then sustainability teams coming and supporting. I think that's what we need to get to know. Very well, you want to go, just got one last question for you, Greg. Sorry, when we look, let's take us, you know, five years into the future.

Greg Simmons: Mm-hmm. That's all right.

Helena: In five years time, when you look back, what would you hope would have fundamentally changed? And if there's one thing that you'd love us all to come together for as an industry, what would that be?

Greg Simmons: Okay. So internal, I would say we will hit our new term goals and that we will have run and have a clearer understanding about what a ⁓ and no carbon product really looks like. I think that's a, it's a really important part. I think it is an industry though fundamentally as an industry we've got, we've probably got two problems. One of them though is actually, you know, us. ⁓

Helena: Yeah.

Greg Simmons: having access to recycled content, this has a huge impact in reducing our dependency on virgin fossil fuels, fossil oils. that power of purchasing power, aggregated purchasing power, think is one thing. If everyone can come together, there's that. But also looking at what happens at the other end of the face. And I think that's another area there that if we can

Helena: Mm.

Greg Simmons: somehow come together and talk about that one as well. So one is an input is using more and more recycled feedstocks and being able to draw on those to be able to get the price down to make the uptake greater. That would be awesome. But at the other end is actually coming together and really having a conversation about the fate. What happens after the is not ⁓ played with anymore?

Helena: Yeah, end of life. need to pick up, we've got some stuff that we're working on, we need to catch up on that one. Greg, I know you need to go. It's been an absolute pleasure. I learned so much more about you today as well. Who would have known? I've known you for years and I never knew your history with the great work that you were doing in the engineering world. So thank you so much and I'm looking forward to the next few years here at POC and working together. So thank you very

Greg Simmons: Yeah. ⁓ It's been awesome, Helena. I gotta say, you guys