Helena: Hello and a big happy Earth Day week to everybody. We've all been celebrating all the amazing achievements that the industry has been pushing forward for the last couple of years. So just wanted to do a shout out to everybody that has been announcing things this week and a big welcome to our podcast from Intent to Impact from POC. I'm Helena, I'm the founder here at POC and over the last five years, the brand, licensing, toy fashion and retail industry has been on one of the most significant transformational journeys in its history. Once which once felt a little bit of a niche sustainability conversation has really become central to how businesses design, source, manufacture, operate and actually grow. This podcast is all about capturing that journey, honestly, openly and from the people who have helped shape it within our POC community. We're looking back at what's worked and what hasn't and also the decisions that have defined those moments in And just as importantly, we're going to be looking forward to the next five years and what it's going to take to build that industry infrastructure that we should desperately need. before we get into that, I just want to say big thank you to our podcast supporter, Worldly. They're leading sustainability and supply chain intelligence platform from the consumer goods industries. Lots of our members use them and they're trusted by over 40,000 companies across the whole. ⁓ value chain, looking at verified environmental and social primary data into insights and actions addressing carbon, water, chemicals, across complex supply chains which we all operate within. So we've said thank you to the Worldly team. I'm really to bring our guest on today. I'm joined by somebody who's really been at the heart of this transformation within our industry for the last decade ⁓ And he's created two amazing brands, one called Nobody's Child, which we're gonna dig into, one called Fabacus, again, which we're gonna dig into. They're very different, but they really complement each other. So with a huge welcome that I say hello and good morning to Andrew. Thank you for joining us today, Andrew.

Andrew Xeni: Good morning Helena, thank you, thanks for your invitation.

Helena: I know some of you are a little bit jaded today because I know we all had a very busy day yesterday. teller you've just been telling me about your day, Andrew. Come on, you've got to tell our listeners what your day looked like yesterday.

Andrew Xeni: you Well, I it's not every day the same but yesterday we kicked off with the retail technology show which it was was quite lovely that I got to do a fireside chat with Jody the CEO of Nobody's Child So ⁓ Jody and I have never shared the stage before so that was a really lovely dynamic and to tell the story in a different way with slightly different perspectives So that was and then rushing from there across to the B&LLAs where I actually changed in the car. So those that were were judging my appearance know where stemmed from. So I changed, turned up at the B&LLAs ⁓ which a great afternoon. Sadly we didn't win the award that we nominated for but nevertheless a great afternoon and the evening finished off as part of ⁓ retail group that we get together periodically which was amazing and little bit heavy but thankfully not not. too heavy to compromise our podcast this morning.

Helena: Well done for getting hopefully was there blacked out windows or was it just totally if anybody could see they could see

Andrew Xeni: It was, I'm sure a couple of people might have got a couple of glimpses. I hope I didn't scare anyone on the way. So if there's any sightings reported between London Excel and Lancaster Gate, then yeah, that would have been me. But no, I tried to keep it as discreet as I can.

Helena: I love that. I love your dedication, Andrew, to actually enabling all of this stuff to happen and being really part of that journey that you and your team are on. And we've been on this parallel journey, actually, when we look at sustainability. For the last six years, it's been amazing from very early in the day, especially when I was learning about the Fabacus side of your business and you wanting to bring this new technology to industry where most people didn't even understand what you were trying to do. It took a couple of years for people to get their head around what you were trying to do. And I know we're gonna dig a little bit into that later, it's just, first of all, it's just amazing to have been on this journey with you and also just to see where our journeys are gonna take us over that next five to 10 years as well. Because I do think our industry is gonna look very, very different.

Andrew Xeni: Likewise. Yeah of course and likewise by the way it's been lovely to... from the sidelines to see what you guys have been doing. You've been banging the drum from day one and herding the cats and getting people to believe and change and understand and you guys present at every event like we are and that presence means a lot over time. And I think finally it feels to us certainly that we've to establish a pretty nice position within the industry and... and certainly one that is appreciated by many now and you guys have been doing that by our sides and I'd like to think you feel the same.

Helena: Definitely, and I think it's amazing when we look at what you have been doing. You're really helping, you know, you're helping support everybody. I the main thing is actually what you've been working on. You're helping support the industry with that transition. So we're not just talking about it. You're actually saying here is something that's going to help you deliver against that, which is super exciting. I know we're going to get into that. But first of all, Andrea, I really want to learn a little bit more about you because we did a panel together at Spring Fair with Hyve Group at the beginning of this year. And I'd never really sat next to you and I had that conversation of kind of how you even started in this industry. Tell us, you know, about Nobody's Child and how that started. And then kind of then what led you into Fabacus is like, most people don't know people's origin story. They just then know the business. and I just think that, you know, the... The journey that you've been on is just phenomenal with the grit and determination that you've had and just that, you know, doggie determination to succeed. So are you happy to take us on a bit of a journey? ⁓

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, for sure. I won't go too far back. I don't think we've got long enough. you know, very humble beginnings as a family. know, are, we're Greek immigrants by trade that come across once upon a time. My parents had a small factory in North London. A lot of Greeks, Greek Cypriots in particular, started off in the rag trade in London. And so, you know,

Helena: Okay.

Andrew Xeni: Growing up our ambitions were limited because it's all we knew that we could believe in and achieve. And so was the one member of the family that was very keen to get away from the industry. So I went off and did everything. didn't go to university. ⁓ I that I wanted to do professional qualifications ⁓ because wanted to focus on my career at the time in the city. I got my first job at 18 at Lloyds Brokers. Did a load of stuff before that too.

Helena: Mm.

Andrew Xeni: I had, you know, as every kid should, but I was doing my pilot's license. I was doing a whole load of things because I didn't know what I wanted to do really. Then I decided that I wanted to go into the city. So I went off and did all my professional qualifications, started a job in what was essentially a glorified call center, trading equities at 18. Got a few roles in a big corporate, which I enjoyed, but wasn't really my calling. So at 21, 22, I decided to leave the bank and go and set up my own businesses. And I went into the whole load of different things. some were good, most were not. And then about 25, my brother said that wanted to start manufacturing. And I said, well, this is the time to do it together. You we didn't have any capital. We really have a network, but we had his sort of passion for product. and my role was to look after everything else essentially. So we started manufacturing and of course, we got that right. We built that from the ground up, made it a meaningful business. We were supplying sort of seven, 800,000 units a week at our peak. So a very meaningful business supply and all the big UK high street retailers. But we did very well, we invested our own supply chain. So we invested, we had a vested interest in our own knit and dye and printing facilities, our own factories in Moldova, Morocco, the UK, some far leads in Sri Lanka and Asia further afield and you in essence sort of operated if you like across. ⁓ every single function in that what we knew back then as a supply chain my head and my heart was not in that. I never wanted to get into that you know the problem with when a family is in a certain industry it's like pulling the plug in a bath everyone ends up in the same place ⁓ and found myself back in that sort of hamster wheel of fashion apparel manufacturing which ⁓ which were very good at and we leveraged that but

Helena: Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: That's not where my head and my heart was at the time. So I started building a product lifecycle management solution for our manufacturing business that essentially become the enabler of our success and scale. And I thought, you know, I just had this vision that imagine a world if I could take that to market and build a technology business one day when I grow up.

Helena: Hmm.

Andrew Xeni: And Fabacus was born. And so Fabacus was my little sandbox to play in tech with a vision of delivering visibility, traceability, transparency in the supply chain sustainability even really featured in our vocabulary.

Helena: Please.

Andrew Xeni: and I've got an addictive personality, so that was me in tech. I got involved in a few other different technology businesses and then my brother said, you seem to be good at all this tech stuff, how hard is it to have a website? And so Nobody's Child was born. And of course, very naive. Thankfully, naive on both fronts actually, because had I known how challenging it would be, I probably would have been deterred from pursuing it, but thankfully.

Helena: Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: those little acorns are slowly growing and we've worked very very hard at that. And so now I find myself as you know straddling retail and tech so I've got Nobody's Child as a responsible ladies wear brand which I'm incredibly proud of. got Fabacus which is a data partner for some of the largest licensors on the planet and ⁓ which is a referral technology for ⁓ that sells online and we've got

Helena: you

Andrew Xeni: customers spanning Google, Samsung, H &M and Nike which is amazing. yeah, still not out of the woods but a bit of a fairy tale seven, eight years.

Helena: Yeah, I mean, it's phenomenal, Andrew, and to think that you've been on that journey for such a long time and just, you know, head down. And I love that actually, though the fashion piece didn't necessarily light up your fire internally, it was just something you really good at. kind of that business enabled you to kind of start to build the tech side, which was your passion. ⁓ and then look at would have known that's where legislation would have took us and required us to do and that you would have been working on something for such a long time that you're able to kind of pivot a little bit more into that. And just go back to Nobody's Child for a second because I know that Nobody's Child is 10 years old now, is it 10 years this year? ⁓

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, yeah. We celebrated 10 years in October. Was 10 years the site had been live. Obviously we were up and running a few months before that trying to frantically get it all going. But yeah, 10 year anniversary was back in the last year. So incredible, yeah. mean, looking back, it doesn't feel like 10 years. Yeah.

Helena: Yeah. Yeah. then when you, well, life has a knack of doing that to you, doesn't it? Suddenly you're 20 years old and you're just like, where did that time go? I mean, people look at Nobody's Child now and I mean, and you could probably give us some stats on the growth that you've got happening within Nobody's Child and just how much you're leading when it comes to more ethically sourced and materials that have a reduced impact.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah.

Helena: But it's not always been that plain sailing, it? mean, it's, it's, it's, been a, there's been a, you know, learnings on the way to what, what's delivered today. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: ⁓ god no. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that. we are today was not who we set out to be, right? What we initially started we were very passionate about because we were supplying all the retail and we saw these other big pure plays evolving ⁓ building businesses at the time. What we knew was that the ethical practices were not in order and something that's always been close to our heart because we started life off as a factory. ⁓ We always this passion for looking after our supply chain, our factories and you know making sure

Helena: Hmm. Hmm.

Andrew Xeni: one's fully paid and everything's done correctly and you know we hear all these stories a lot of them in the public domain so I'm not going to list or name anything or anyone but For us, that was close to our heart. were like, imagine a world if we could have an ethical brand where everybody's paid and we're fast and we're agile and we're beautiful and we're a good value proposition. And that was the ambition. we started life off going that value mass but produced ethically versus everything else that we saw around us. I think it was like year three. yeah, probably about year three, maybe four, when we slowly started to source more responsible fabrics. And it was when the world was really starting to develop, you know, recycled this and doing this impact and everything from bamboo to banana to, you know, it was all happening. And we were learning very, very fast and we were slowly introducing it. I don't know.

Helena: Mm. Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: I sort of remember the conversation so clearly like it was yesterday with the team at the time. And it just felt like this is it. is what we want to be doing. Like imagine if we were ⁓ that space, you know, responsible fashion, ⁓ ethically ⁓ the right price. And nobody was really doing that. You know, everybody else that was claiming responsibility was charging a premium and ⁓ know, two, 300 pound dresses. And that didn't need to be the case in our opinion. We wanted to establish

Helena: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: value proposition and a brand that can be responsible and inclusive but affordable of course then we slowly started to polish that diamond and you know really lovely I think it was 2019 we won Young Brand of the Year for Drapers which was a lovely recognition for the team ⁓ a business so embryonic you know our turnover was like just over 1.8 million if I recall something like that so it was tiny but we had this huge you know we packed this big punch And at that time I had conviction and confidence in the brand, but we had exhausted our liquidity. We didn't appreciate how expensive it would be to build this brand and e-commerce business. Of course, a lot of mistakes along the way too. So we our options. What do we do? We need to raise external capital for the first time. ⁓ How do do that? It wasn't something that I was familiar with. And... I established very quickly that the only thing I'm going to use that capital on is reach. So what if it wasn't capital, but it was reach? And so a very, very close friend of mine, I think over a bottle, maybe two bottles of wine, we knocked around some ideas and established that potentially Mark Suspensers could be a good candidate to strategically have a conversation with, even though they'd never done this before. And long story short, I got introduced to Steve, the CEO.

Helena: Thank Mm.

Andrew Xeni: You know, as you do, waited months to have that call. We had the call and he got it immediately, carried the torch and two years later we sold a third of the business to Marks and Spencer's. Very, very clear deliverable and objective. had 32 million customers. We had a machine that could service that demand and a proposition that we believed was compelling and the rest is history. And fast forward now we are.

Helena: Mm.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, I mean it's like 35 times that revenue over five years. So it's been an incredible growth trajectory. And of course with that comes a whole load of other challenges, right? Everything. DCs, offices, systems, people. Yeah, I mean it's crazy. And Joely come in at that point to lead it for us, who's an incredible leader and our CEO.

Helena: No. like the infrastructure.

Andrew Xeni: for her commitment and passion and dedication to the brand and to us as a family and to the shareholders and she's just relentless and the team they just carried the torch they just love the values of the brand and that responsibility of to constantly lead and pioneer being a responsible brand and so yeah I mean it's been a it has been a fairy tale for us that's the truth

Helena: But a fairy tale with a huge amount of work when you look at that. So obviously your partnership with M &S was, you know, what would have happened if you hadn't have done that? You might not have been able to scale in the way you wanted to scale. you know, that kind of took you into a totally different direction.

Andrew Xeni: I don't think it would be wrong if I to say that we probably wouldn't exist. Just being transparent. friend of mine said to me, I remember, said, wow, you ⁓ it from the jaws of the shark. I said, it wasn't the jaws, it was the tail. It was in there. We went into a pandemic with like, I can't remember, 25 people. We were tiny, but ⁓ was like a house of cards. I remember.

Helena: Okay. Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: Steve and I was like Steve you know need to do this or I'm gonna really struggle to keep the wheels on and ⁓ was like done done and done and five months later we were live it was amazing ⁓ you know ⁓ might rescue it but who knows

Helena: How amazing. Yeah. But how amazing to have that full site and also that partnership with such a big retailer that that, cause that, you know, that's really unique for somebody with a retailer of that size to see the, the opportunity within a small brand ⁓ partner to bring that to you, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a real partnership. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: It was amazing. mean people still don't get it, you still understand the output and of course where we've ended up but you've got a retailer that spends more on milk in their head office than what invested in our brand. At the same time, know, especially back then, we knew we would bring them agility and speed and relevance and we had the responsible credentials, is of course sustainability features so heavily in M &S' values and practices. So we were so aligned in so many ways and they were going through their own transformation, of course. And, you know, essentially our breakfast with Archie on Tuesday, who's still the chairman there. And when I got to meet him at the time when we engaged them, He was like, you know, he'd give me reassurance that they're on this mission and they're gonna, they're gonna improve things. And I've genuinely believed at the time that he and Steve were gonna lead this transformation and now Stuart's of course in the building and others and they've been on this remarkable journey and it's been amazing because we've done it the same time. I mean, I think it was last year where we both won retail of the year. We won retail of the year under a hundred million and they won retail of the year over a hundred million. So that was just like,

Helena: love that. That's perfect. actually it's just doing the right thing can pay. I have so many conversations at POC where a lot of people say, well, it's too, well, know, that material is too expensive. So we can't do that. ⁓ I think if it's part of your DNA and your, and your whole business is built on that foundation, like you've proven that your customers come with you and, and, and maybe we switch a little bit. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: ⁓ 100%.

Helena: bit to that now, Andrew, because I think this is at the point, know, so nobody's child's doing really well. You've signed this partnership with Fearne Cotton, who is, you know, a big flag waiver for sustainable and ethical brands with the, the consumer that you want to talk to, which, know, huge congratulations on landing that as well. You know, it's total alignment. And that's where your two really start to come together. So maybe we switch and we talk about.

Andrew Xeni: Thanks Thank you.

Helena: Fabacus and digital product passports and that journey that you've been on and then how you've pulled those together and then you launched your first DPP with Nobody's Child and Fearne then again, that's taken you, that's just even added rocket to just who are as a business and how your consumer sees you as far as growth.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, I mean that was an incredible moment for me personally, the fact that the two businesses can collaborate to execute something with such purpose and such incredible impact. let me give you a couple of the building blocks. Obviously the stars align, but it's never like that. ⁓ Yeah, think irony was if you look back at what Fabacus was built to do, what we're doing was everything I wanted to do back then.

Helena: Hmm Never that easy.

Andrew Xeni: the rest of the world is now caught up. Regulations, sustainability, traceability, transparency. I did it back then through lens of commercial. I wanted that control as a retailer, as a brand, ⁓ or as a tech vendor to enable retailers to have that control. ⁓ And control was about agility and visibility to trade and improve margins and the whole world since then has changed significantly anyway. From a regulatory standpoint, what we were building was to build a trusted system of record for licensors, but big licensors of scale we started with because we wanted to secure critical mass. And this was about getting all the data from everyone, all the stakeholders and being able to structure it and verify it to enable and fix a whole load of things that have ordinarily been hindered in licensing to date. on one of our calls with one of the co-founders of Epic Games who were of our first clients ⁓ Fortnite. ⁓ was like, I love what you guys are doing, but wouldn't it be amazing if ⁓ could also connect our products to the game somehow and ⁓ licensed products, that's hindered of course, because the licensees are the ones that produce, manufacture, distribute and sell, and IP owners typically have a passive role. So we went away in architecture the way of enabling that. So being able to create these sort of trusted serialized keys linked to a trusted system of record was something we started doing for the UFC globally and for others. And it was incredible. ⁓ then when we started hearing about the regulation. ⁓ Hold on, we've been doing this for like three or four years. This is what we do. You know, we can do this. And actually, we're in a privileged position where of course I've got my own brand. So I don't need anyone's consent. No red tape, no politics, no noise. just do it. This is amazing. I want to be first. I want to be, you know, I it. And we sat and did a brainstorming session, we're like, great, we've got the Fearne Cotton collection coming. So amazing, Fearne will back this, I'm confident she would love this. And she'd love the fact that she's the first and it would be a lovely story. So we didn't actually ask Fearne's consent to begin with and we put the codes in the product. and we didn't even tell the teams what the codes were for. We just said, you've got to do this, knowing that we've got a window between ⁓ production in the life cycle and actually getting it to stores and online. And did that and then we sat with the team and went, right guys, ⁓ now got three months to go and do all of this work before the product goes live. And the coder in the product said, we've got no wriggle room. And everyone's like, wow, okay, so they'll run around and then that was it. That was...

Helena: Mmm.

Andrew Xeni: the beginning of the first execution to deliver digital product passports, but we actually did it without telling anybody.

Helena: Isn't that phenomenal, but also just like go and do that work. mean, three months, mean, Andrew, just for those that are listening, the type of data that you had to try and get from your supply chain to be input into that to enable you to even do this. Jamie was on the team and how many people were working on this, like fully dedicated, just to data capture to help get this to happen.

Andrew Xeni: think more than the data captures the education, right? The biggest challenge is the education because ⁓ got to go out and educate all of your factories, suppliers, everybody the value chain, what you're doing, why you're doing it, when you need it, how you need it. The technology great.

Helena: Yeah. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: at making things more seamless. But remember, we were still in our early days too, so this wasn't polished diamond. The idea was great, the logic was robust, but actually execution was a lot of heavy lifting. So yeah, Jamie at the time was in NC team. He was leading my sustainability at NC. So he and the team there, that includes a buying team who have the relationships with the suppliers, like everybody gets dragged into it. A big of work, you're talking about...

Helena: Mm.

Andrew Xeni: roughly 150 to 200 product attributes across, I would say, anything from 12 to 15 sources per product, right? So all of a sudden, you've got systems, you've got stakeholders, external partners who are calculating our carbon impact at the time, our water. It was a big, big lift. mean, the team, both teams, both sides worked so hard. And I remember... I'm pretty sure it was the night before the product was going to get turned online live. were still... filling in the blanks and tidying up the mistakes. And if I recall actually there was also a couple of styles where we'd put, I say the role we because we all take responsibility, but one of the factories had put the labels on the wrong product so we had to obviously and these are real issues by the way this stuff happens every day so it wasn't it certainly wasn't plain sailing it was a massive lift but wow what what a moment that was for both teams to deliver this and of course the halo effect has been ⁓ you know everyone picked it up.

Helena: Wow.

Andrew Xeni: domain and we've had everyone from Telegraph to the Times to the Standard to the Sky News to I mean it was amazing amazing we could never have scripted that.

Helena: It's because it's the world's first, Andrew, you within your two companies have created a brand that is ethical and as sustainable as it can possibly be at scale today. And you've delivered the first digital product passport to market way before all the final legislation is input. mean, you're showcasing the future of how industry is going to be operating. mean, that's phenomenal. It's absolutely phenomenal.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, mean, it's... Yeah, we're very guilty of not celebrating those wins the way enough, really. I don't think it's because we don't recognise it or we're not proud of it. ⁓ just think we're still operating at such a pace with such an ambition that it's like chasing the horizon. It's always there, but you never get to it. You're just constantly... teams are brilliant. on the back of that execution, come over to head up our compliance module ⁓ at ⁓ focused supporting licensees and retailers and manufacturers on their own sustainability, obligations and ambitions. Then we Philly in to head that up. Nobody's child and she's...

Helena: amazing.

Andrew Xeni: for such a small team, we're doing is around, I mean, they put out an impact report, which I remember looking at and it was like 60 odd pages. I'm like, how do you get time to do this and your job and all of these other things? And LinkedIn, mean, people have heard me say this before, is sometimes my best source of information for my own brand. I just can't keep up with what they're doing. I just see something come up ⁓ I'm like, wow, when did we do that? know, who that? ⁓ And think a reflection of the culture and the DNA of the brand, which yes, of course, ⁓

Helena: Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: started and we're very proud of, but I certainly don't deserve to take any of the credit of where the brand is today and the things we're doing. That is very much the team and way beyond anything we could have ever imagined doing.

Helena: But I think when you build a team like you have done, Andrew, and you put the right people in place and because of the type of brand that you are and what's in the core of your DNA, I think people just want to do the right thing. And so, you know, it's, it's not just a job to them. There's a purpose to what they're doing. And then that's probably why people put in the extra hours and are happy to exhaust themselves because it's bigger than just bringing revenue to a company. It's actually driving. change with an industry and I think that's probably what's really unique about both businesses that you're running.

Andrew Xeni: But we have some really lovely moments that stop us in our tracks. I think last year we posted for a senior role at Nobody's Child and had over 800 applicants of which come from, would argue, the top 2000 in Europe. I mean, it was phenomenal. And I remember Jody I going, okay, this is gonna be a... this is going to be hard work. How are we going to filter this? don't have the time to look at ⁓ and anybody, you know? And so genuinely, incredible ⁓ how received the brand is by both consumers and the people that want to join our team and join this mission. it's so flattering for me still when people pull me up after I've done a talk somewhere and they're like, right. you and work for the brand. It's amazing. It's so close to people's heart. I think ⁓ a shame really because don't think retailers and brands actually quite understand that yet. I don't think they believe it yet enough. I don't think they really understand what it means ⁓ people and ⁓ think we've got it right and again I make it absolutely clear I attribute that to the team ⁓ that of course demonstrates very clearly why we have this sort of loyalty and return from our customers ⁓ that passionate about shopping. with the brand. Of course you have to have price and product, all of these things can't be disregarded but assuming that's a competitive landscape, know it's a level playing field, when you start to get really good at this stuff and it's genuine, consumers are smart, a lot more smart than we give them credit for and we recognize that.

Helena: Yeah, I think when price isn't a barrier, like you've said, I think everybody wants to do the right thing when it comes to ethically and sustainably sourced. It's just, they've to be able to afford it. And so let's just say, let's, let's wrap a nice bow on the amazing nobody's child journey. And then just for those that are listening in, the growth in the brand within five years.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah. the ambition of the next five? Or the last five?

Helena: nursing like you. So how much growth the last five years I do all the right things. What's been your growth? Like what were you worth five years ago and what are you worth today?

Andrew Xeni: ⁓ well, well worth is a very subjective thing. I'm not going to, I'll talk about numbers which I'm comfortable with because obviously there's no one to tell us off but we doing about 1.8 million and yeah can share this I won't get told off and this year, this is our year end, we'll finish up at about 70 million net ⁓ which yeah. ⁓

Helena: you amazing within five years. That's the dream for most people running businesses within the business climate that we're operating in today as well, which is so tough. So huge congratulations to that as well, Andrew. And then also I just wanted to try and I think a lot of people are trying to figure out they're looking at digital product passports as just a compliance tool. And it's more than that. It's, it's a real direct.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Helena: contact to your customer and I think the information that you're getting through Nobody's Child, the repeat purchase, the increasing basket spend, can you tell us a little bit about that just for those that are listening in that they can actually use this technology their benefit as well.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, of course. mean, you would have heard me say this before that one of my frustrations is how this is always perceived as a compliance obligation. Everyone's seemingly overlooking the commercial benefits that trust and loyalty that you build your customer, activating your products at product level, speaking to your customers at product level, engaging them, giving them an amazing experience, that sort of surprise and delight element. opportunity for them to get closer to the brand, register their first party data, becomes a customer acquisition tool. There's a number associated to that because we know our customer acquisition costs online and if you just use those numbers alone, the execution of DPP is already delivered, already delivered a 700 % return on investment. I mean, it's such a powerful tool.

Helena: 700 % on investment.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, that's before, we're not even at maturity, that's assuming we stopped today, right? But continuing what we're doing with that product is just, it's so powerful when customers, we've had people walk into our stores, ask to scan a DPP because they've heard about it. And the social element of customers in a social environment having dinner, friends going, ⁓ look, I just saw this, and sharing it, you know, that. The impact that how that gets through is just, I mean, I did an interview earlier this week for a big company that kindly invited me to go in and help them with something. And both the ladies in the room were wearing my baby's child. I couldn't believe it.

Helena: Thanks.

Andrew Xeni: I still can't believe that stuff, right? Because we're still babies, we're so caught up in being in the Isle of Storm, but people love it and they talk about the DPP. Obviously I'm lucky enough to work with some of biggest retailers and brands on the planet and support them as a technology vendor. And the only thing I try and get across is don't look at this through the lens of compliance because compliance you achieve as a byproduct, but actually it's such a powerful tool. know, we've had basket value go up, we've had return. And of course, not all of this is all DPP. We know that. But coming back more frequently, customers spending more money, more loyalty, deeper social engagement, all of these things ⁓ been upward trending even in the toughest ⁓ environment known to all of us. It's got to be because of something, right? It can't always be just because of good product. There's a lot of people with good product. It's that point of differentiation and DPPs for us allowed us to really demonstrate to our customers that we're on a mission to be transparent and honest. And when we get it wrong, we tell them that too, right? That's very close to our heart. made lots of mistakes along the way and we'll continue to make them. ⁓ acknowledge them. We'll learn from them hopefully. And we communicate them, which is something that ⁓ a lot of people do. Well we see customers appreciate that. So yeah, mean it's in my opinion it's a shame that people don't recognise the commercial value enough. But I'm doing a decent job of banging that drum as much as I can and of course supporting so many people to do that.

Helena: Yeah, yeah. And happy days for you because you've got a brand that is benefiting from your technology as well. And then you've got your technology that's benefiting from the brand. So you can just continue to them better, refine them as time goes on. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: Yeah, yeah, amazing. Yeah, we're learning on the job. mean, we're going through the pain ourselves first and then we're polishing it and then we're passing on that knowledge and expertise sometimes through the product or through the team and those learnings to our customers on the technology side. Absolutely. And it works really well.

Helena: Thank Yeah. So that's, that's, that's thank you, Andrew. So let's dig into that technology for a little bit, because a lot of people, so, you know, the brand and licensing industry, just over $400 billion, the biggest brands in the world operate within our industry from couch and entertainment to sports to music, you know, the fashion, the list goes on. And there's such an opportunity through this technology to one actually, linked to your PLM system so you can build efficiencies and to be compliant. But to me, the biggest area here is actually how those brands can really start to drive consumer change, you know, and, and, and, and really build brand advocacy through this technology. So for those that are listening, maybe just give a little bit of a why DPPs are going to be important on the legislative side, what's being required. But then maybe, I don't know if you're allowed to talk to us about how are you working with some of the biggest brand owners to help them build their digital catalogs, work with their partners, build the DPP, know, that whole ecosystem that you're building, that's going to be really beneficial for the future of our industry.

Andrew Xeni: I mean, well first, let me just hopefully make it easy for people to understand. No, no, it's fine. it's what I do every day. So that's easy bit. ⁓ I think I'm just trying to think of anyone who listens to this and wants to understand a more about DPP. mean, ⁓ the regulations being led by the EU, but similar to GDPR, the EU are leading it because it's such a complex market, so many different countries, governments, languages, et cetera, that play a role in this stuff.

Helena: There's a lot in that question, Andrew.

Andrew Xeni: but we're already seeing the rest of the world do their own version of, right? So there's a big misconception that this is just a EU thing. It's not, it's anybody who sells into the Eurozone and a whole load of nations, including by the way, New York and California and the US despite the current administration. playing down the whole role of sustainability, there are still states doing some things really, really well. so we've seen ⁓ landscape evolve over the last three, four years. ⁓ what the ambition is by the EU is that essentially consumers can make informed buying decisions. Same way that we buy food ⁓ we get nutritional information and we look at the calories and the carbs and the proteins, ⁓ wasn't there once upon a time, right? We just bought it if we liked it. We're going to have the same with consumer products, but this will be about environmental impact. Now, of course, if it's the same product, the same price, but one is a better one for the environment, naturally, I would like to think anybody would gravitate to that. Of course, when it comes to recycling, will be enabled this DPP. So the framework is a very powerful... Actually a very powerful piece of work. I'll give very much give them credit for what they're doing. It's a big ambition. They're seemingly getting the mountains to move. Now our role as a tech friend, I always suggest help the brands, the retailers a trusted system of record, which is ⁓ the source of truth of all the products that are in the market. Now if you're a vertical business, that's a lot easier. I'm not going to say easy, but a lot easier. You either know what you've got because you sell it, or you know what you've got because you made it even if you're selling through third parties. for vertical businesses it's a lot. easier to achieve that but it's still a very complex problem when you think DPP. There's multiple sources, multiple complexities, different timing, it's about getting the right data at the right time from the right person. So that operationalization is what we stand for as a technology business. It's helping give them both the tool and the resource to build that. Now if you think about the world of licensing where you've got some of these huge brands, they're playing a very passive role in what's going to market. They're granting IP IP rights, they're approving it and then the licensees are going away and executing and of course paying a royalty for that privilege and that seemingly works well. That's the industry we've all become very familiar with but for brands, IP owners that want to take accountability for what's happening in that where their IP is presented, now need a trusted system of record. You need a source of truth that has all of your products, every partner across your IP category globally ⁓ one place and then from that that becomes a nucleus that enables you as a brand to go on the journey of enriching it with impact and anything that you as a brand want to take responsibility for to achieve. Interestingly, with the incoming regulation, it's actually going to force these guys to also conform because you can't just claim that it's not because you're the licensor and someone else is doing stuff, right? Everybody that benefits from product needs to take accountability for it's produced, how it's disposed of, how it can be recycled, ⁓ composition, the testing, you know and a lot of licensees already you know get factory audits or integrity certificates and you know so there's a little bit of this stuff happening already ⁓ this is about a much more rigid robust framework ⁓ ⁓ my opinion again and of course I'm trying not to present this through my own ⁓ lens.

Helena: Hmm.

Andrew Xeni: I also know how powerful this is from a commercial standpoint.

Helena: Hmm.

Andrew Xeni: You know, being able to truly take control and visibility of your IP, whether it's from a brand protection, whether it's from the way that you have distribution of rights and how they're being potentialized, driving your brand equity up to drive value and drive sales back for your licensees, which ultimately feeds back into your altis. get that ecosystem working and much more efficient and much more effective, you need you need a central source and we have taken on that responsibility of becoming industry source for ⁓ that and of course thankfully now got critical mass through some of the biggest licensors on the planet ⁓ and been on that mission for about six years and really ⁓ in market for about four and we're the big guys for the last two ⁓ so it's a very exciting time for us too but we're moving mountains right this is all new no one's ever done it before they've never done before licensees have never had to do it before. Everything is an education, it's constant education what I can say is I can't reflect back on a conversation I've had with anybody on either side of the fence that has not understood and got it and that's encouraging right so they get it but getting them to do it like all of us of course we have priorities and challenges and I totally respect that.

Helena: Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: But there's no wriggle room here. We need to do this. Everyone needs to do it. We want to support it. We're passionate about it. We know how valuable it is. We've proven our thesis time and time again, working with the world's largest partners now, both on the brand side and in the retail landscape. So all the big marketplaces, the Googles, now the AI engines, we're all alive. strategically as partners to our initiatives fundamentally our role is to help everyone achieve that structured that can then be enriched right and of course we're not telling everybody today to start calculating the impact of the eutrophication in their supply chains and ⁓ you that's ⁓ that's get there ⁓ but now first you must know all of your products and from you build. ⁓

Helena: was going to say there's a rolling out. Rome wasn't built in a day. People haven't got that data within their companies. need to find the right people in the right company that can make the decision. There's so many elements, there, that kind of slow the process down, not on purpose, but actually just because that's just businesses operate. ⁓

Andrew Xeni: That's reality, absolutely. Actually, you've prompted me in part of the question you asked there, sorry, I didn't address DPP specifically. So imagine the way that the world's evolving. So DPPs are coming in, consumers are going to be able to go into a store, they're going to able to scan something, whatever the carrier is, all of that last 5 % is still being polished. And a consumer's now going to scan a product at Primark, for example. and they're going to get all the information presented to you by Primark, who are the retailers, right? They're the ones responsible for delivering that. Now imagine if it's a Primark t-shirt with a Mickey Mouse on it. and Disney have nothing to do with verifying that DPP, the IP that product, the data that's aggregated in that DPP. Disney have no role in that today. Any licensure, of course, will have role. Now the world is changing. The IP owners, the licensors will need to play a role in that. How your IP is being presented, how that data is being presented, the impact, the responsibility of that data. essentially that's what we're doing. We're bringing the licensors into the value chain ⁓ deeper. ⁓ bringing the licensees, aligning the licensors with the global standards and building a sort of a...

Helena: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Xeni: a source of truth for all stakeholders. so ⁓ ambition is, and we have done this already, as you know, with a few top tier licensors, which has been great, ⁓ that when licensees are engaging with DPPs, the licensor also plays a role in that experience, in what the consumer sees, in verifying the IP for that product. And, know, we play a very active role with all the government bodies. have Wajh and who know, are both ⁓ experts in the groups. We're working very closely with the EU Commission. the JRC, the W3C standards, we play a fundamental role in that global landscape, side by side with GS1 ⁓ establishing a standard for this data. you licensors are slowly but surely getting it. Licensees are understanding their obligations too. But DPP going to bring a level of ⁓ rigid framework everyone will need to conform to.

Helena: Yeah. Totally get me. There's a licensor in the sporting industry that we know of and they've actually paid for all of their licensees to have a DPP because they want to be able to control that data that's in there. And they also want to be able to see that data that's in there. So it's going to be fascinating to watch this all roll out over the next. mean, fashion is hit first next year. It's 2027 is the, is the first requirement, isn't it?

Andrew Xeni: Well yeah, mean, batteries come out of the traps flying and textiles is right behind it. You know, anybody working on lead times of over six months should have been on this last year. just because to iterate it in your own organisation, the flow, the data, the mapping, the whole execution of implementing and scaling DPPs, anything that's gonna start coming off your production lines next year to hit the stores that will be in the market for 27, potentially and beyond, should have a carrier. know, a lot of moving. mean, I'm lucky I'm now working with, you know, six or seven of the top 10 retailers in the UK in different shapes and sizes. And we're seeing people move and evolve. a bit of a lag still with licensing, although there's a few green shoots. ⁓ people need to start moving now because if these timelines are rubber stamped as expected this quarter, it's to be quite an achievement to try and get everybody in line in time for when the framework lands.

Helena: we bet your bottom dollar if there's branded elements on a DPP, a brand owner's gonna wanna approve it. They need to have a framework of what they're gonna require. And it makes sense for us to discuss and agree that as an industry, because what we don't want is different brand owners requiring different things from hundreds of partners globally, because that becomes a massive headache. Andrew, I'm very aware that we're getting close to time and I know that you've got a really busy day ahead. I've got one more question for you, then I shall let you go off and start your day.

Andrew Xeni: Of course. That's good. Of course. No problem.

Helena: If we look five years into the future with both of your hats on, what do you want to see from industry as in, least, know, five years time when you look back, what would you like to have happened? Where would you like to be?

Andrew Xeni: Wow, well, me personally, a beach somewhere wouldn't harm for a while. I've on this sprint for best part of just 30 years now. I think I'd like to see is, I'd love to see industry, ⁓ licensing industry in fully mobilised and well-off. machine with all the data flowing in the right directions everything that we said we would do delivered ⁓ continued and maintained and sustained. I think that will be really You know, we're very excited geeks about what we do. We know how valuable it is to all the stakeholders. So watching that to life has been incredible. slow and frustrating at times, it has been incredible. know, we've proven our thesis time and time again. some of the biggest organisations in the world and I'm really, really holding back here some of the stuff I'd love to share but I can't, it's a little bit premature. seeing that would be amazing. ⁓ then from a brand perspective, I think the biggest challenge we have as a brand is maintaining our position in five years ⁓ being recognised as ⁓ sweetheart brand that it's become ⁓ a responsible brand. Now we're not going to change our responsibility credentials but The world's evolving fast, technology's playing a role in accelerating things. know, we want to stay front of the pack ⁓ that's going to keep us busy. And so if I can, God we can sit here again in five years, reflect back on this discussion and the is still where it needs to be. And the licensing is fully mobilized and we've driven that standardization to unlock all of this capability and... ⁓

Helena: and

Andrew Xeni: adherence regulation, I'll be a very, very proud man.

Helena: Well, we will continue this conversation, Andrew, and we will talk in five years time. Yeah, exactly. Well, actually we've got, for anybody's listening that's going to licensing expo, Andrew is going to be joining POC on our panel with the Disney team and the Universal Music Group team at four o'clock on the Wednesday the 20th May. So please come and join And Jamie's also coming on the platform on Thursday next week. So sorry if people are listening to it past that time.

Andrew Xeni: Yeah well hopefully a lot more in between too but absolutely.

Helena: to talk about PLM systems and DPPs and how they align and what people should be doing to get themselves ready for all of this. know you'll be at the conference. There'll be lots of other stuff we're going to be doing on that journey. Andrew, we're not going anywhere. Huge thank you for work that you're doing first and foremost. Somebody needs to do it. And I know it takes a huge amount of energy to change industry. So thank you for being that for our industry. I'm looking forward to seeing where that takes us.

Andrew Xeni: course. Thank you.

Helena: Thank you for being on this journey with us, Andrew. It's amazing to kind of be linking arms with you and the team as we go on this journey with industry because it is exhausting. we have to do this together. And I'm looking forward to seeing ⁓ how evolves over the next couple of years. So thank you, thank you very much.

Andrew Xeni: You Thank you and thank you for inviting me here and also thank you for the work that you're doing. It helps us, know, having other advocates out there, ambassadors, educating, it helps feed the beast, which is very important. So that's great. I'm very grateful to you and thank you for inviting me on here. And as always, looking forward seeing you in Vegas on the stage and supporting in any capacity that we can. ⁓ Thanks Helena. Thank you. too. ⁓ Thank you.

Helena: you. Thanks, Andrew. Go and have a nice day and spend time with that little, little one of yours. Thank you. Bye bye.

Andrew Xeni: Take care, bye bye.