Helena: Hello and welcome to the Products of Change podcast from Intent to Impact. Over the last five years, the brand, licensing, manufacturing and retail industry has been on one of the most significant transformational journeys in its history. felt like a niche sustainability conversation has become central to how this design, source, manufacture and grow. This podcast is about capturing that journey. Jo Seddon: . you Helena: honestly, openly and from the people who have helped shape it within our POC community. We'll be looking at what's worked and what hasn't and the decisions that have to find those moments in time. And just as importantly, we're going to be looking forward to the next five years, which is super important and look at what industry needs to do to get us to that future and that future state that we need. So for those that don't know me, I'm Helena Mansa-Stofa. I'm the founder here at products to Change And I'm delighted to be joined by two people have been at the heart of that transformation within the home industry. But before I welcome them to you, I just want to say a big thank you to our podcast supporter, worldly and worldly is a leading sustainability and supply chain intelligence platform for the consumer goods industry, trusted by a network of more than 40,000 company. Yes, 40,000 of you are trusting broadly and they're amazing verified environmental and social data. and that they bring into action through insights, addressing carbon, water, chemical and labour across complex supply chains. industry recognized standards, including Cascades Higgindex, worldly translates raw data into actionable intelligence to help brands, retentors, licensees and manufacturers reduce their risk, meeting evolving regulation, driving measurable progress. And we're very lucky to have them part of our POC community. ⁓ they actually also work with the Denel team as well. really, really happy to be able to welcome two pretty amazing ladies to this podcast today that have been driving sustainable innovation within the home sector many years. And ⁓ I want to dig under how we understand how businesses are evolving in this space. Therefore, I'm very delighted to be joined by Lisa Ly Sustainability Manager Jo Seddon, Manager at Denam. Hello, ladies. I'm sorry about that very long introduction. to our podcast. Jo Seddon: Hi Helena: makes this conversation super important for me is that both Lisa and Jo are already very much part of the work that we've been doing here within our product exchange community. ⁓ you very kindly us in our conference in 2024 and showcased the journey that you've been making. ⁓ And you've been contributing to our webinars and we had a nice cosy fireside chat at Spring Fair at the beginning of the year as well. Thank you very much. love to dig into this conversation, at I'm going to come to you first, if that's okay. ⁓ But we really start digging into ⁓ the plans, can you tell us a little bit about your sustainability journey? I know you're used to it with the ASDA team. Just what you into this world? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting us, Helena know this, um, and yeah, very glad to be back in the community. So I started in the retail sector for a while and I studied, um, by merchandising tech design, all of it, um, during, uni. And it's because I love product, um, love product throughout, um, my family have a background in tailoring and product making. So it's kind of, I feel like it's in my blood. Um, And I've seen factories myself, ⁓ back in the day when I was very, very young. that really kicked start me off in terms of how products are made, working where products from. so was very, very lucky to kind of witness that ⁓ overseas, ⁓ at age. So I then started to for a hose supplier in packaging and marketing design while studying my master's degree in, fashion management. ⁓ Um, which was really, really cool because I wanted to go more in depth of the kind of sourcing side. Um, and it had one great little module back in the day when it's not, I don't know, sustainability wasn't really a thing yet. And it was just one very simple, small module that only had like a couple of points to it. And it was on ethical sourcing and that really opened my eyes to, to this world. So I was like, I need to do more in this, this area. It's, it's like my calling. I later then did a, 10-week placement with George Asda and it was fantastic. I got to learn a lot. and ⁓ was back in the day when we used to call this CSR, looking after like the social environmental, ⁓ initiatives like women's empowerment or like the better cotton program when it first, well, was quite early, early days then. and then I basically worked there full time after, as, ⁓ assistant but then ⁓ yeah, I kind delve. into the more sustainability side as it grew. I worked for the likes of ⁓ Clarks, and then moved over to Dunelm. ⁓ ⁓ sticked to the sustainability side because it's ⁓ back to product. And that's why I really, really care about. So yeah, I feel very extremely lucky that I got to merge two worlds together. Helena: I love that. love your, I think we've all got an origin story, haven't we? Of kind of how sustainability or the world of ethics kind of brought us into this world. So thank you for sharing that with us, Lisa. I didn't know the whole of that backstory, so thank you. Jo, I know that your journey into this was a little bit different actually, because you've come from the design side. I'd love if you were able to kind of tell our listeners a little bit more about you and the work that you've done. Jo Seddon: Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having me as well. is a great opportunity. So bit Lisa, really, I love product. And I grew in a household with really, really practical parents. My mum was seamstress and my dad was an electrician, but they could pretty much turn hand to anything. I was always making things as child out of bits of this and bits of that. I actually started my career as a graphic designer and I thought, there's something about this that's not fulfilling me. I wanted to be involved in products and particularly products for the home. So I gained a degree in decorative arts, which was very much hands on about design make a kind of course. And I specialized in ceramics and then I got into the world of retail. So for the last 25 years, I've been designing products for high street retailers. And that's taken me far and wide around the world to factory manufacturing sites in Europe and the Far East and trips everywhere really around the world. So until a couple of years ago, I was heading up the hard goods design team here at Dunelm and pretty anything that wasn't textiles or furniture came under my remit. Then... ⁓ I sort of started to question my career and, you know, having this background of wanting to waste anything and make use of everything. Was I just making the problem worse? Am I designing for landfill? And I got to the point where I nearly walked away from my career because that was how I was feeling. at the time, Dunelm decided to, you know, take sustainability seriously. I was able to sidestep into the role that I'm now doing, which is kind of the creative link between commercial and sustainability. looking solutions, networking, seeing what's going on, looking to the future, what things might we want and need in the future to cope with climate change that currently, you know, lot of people haven't even considered. I've been looking at e-materials, I've been looking at UK manufacturing it's a whole new for me but one that I'm really, really enjoying. Helena: I love that and I know that you're doing your studies at the same time as well, aren't you? Jo Seddon: I am, also doing an apprenticeship in corporate responsibility and sustainability practice alongside my job. So yeah, I'm very, very busy. Helena: See, anybody out there that wants to learn more, can do it. just, is squeezed, but can make it happen. You can go and expect more than anything. Yeah. Jo Seddon: And you can also be any age. I you know, I'm well into my career and I've gone back to school and it's brilliant and I'm really, really enjoying learning so much. Helena: I did the same in my ⁓ I had a bit of an aha moment of where do I want to be? So I went and did my Cambridge course as well with two very young children and a full-time job. So I think I cried most nights. But get it done, don't you? So, know, so pleased that you're doing it, Jo. And then I know we're going to dig into a little bit about the innovations and some of the work that you've been doing. And I wonder, Lisa, if we can kind of just take a step back for those that are listening in and... and kind of really look at the overarching goals at Dunelm with kind of what you're looking to achieve and then kind of how you're chipping away at that on this journey. I'd love for you to go into some of that into more detail. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So we've, moved the homeware kind of sector knowing that I ⁓ would love product ⁓ and my is fully on like fashion background. So ⁓ I did dabble in bit of homeware, but not to this extent where we're really trying to push it into the market from a sustainability side. But been developing the roadmap for over four. four years now. Very, very fun. People like Jo, fantastic, by the way, she's amazing. I can't like gush over her any more than I can because without people who are forward thinking and future thinking, which sometimes when you work in retail, it's very difficult to have that headspace to do that. We won't, we wouldn't be where we are right now. So yeah, we've Helena: Thank Lisa: been working towards our main goal, is net zero by 2040. And that's always been our goal. Um, we do, you know, look at things like water as well and, circularity but it all kind of ladders up back to that one big, big picture thinking, for net zero. So, I don't want to take up this whole podcast today, but I will kind of cover the things that we, we have been doing or, um, the, main priorities within the business. So we started off with collecting data. it's the baseline of everything. think when, you know, two years ago, we went to the, POC conference, that's what everybody was talking about. The only thing that everybody was talking about is really, really important, isn't it? Um, so collecting product information, traceability of the materials, assessing reportability kind of capabilities. I know it's the boring part, but you can't measure success if you don't know what the baseline is. So. Helena: Exactly. Lisa: It's definitely something that is a bit of a mantra here. we worked on product raw materials, switching just from virgin to lower impact sources. ⁓ And was just driven by the fact that materials make up a very large percentage of our footprint. So we up to things like better cotton initiative, to switching to like recycled steel in our tracks and poles. And ⁓ that's really, really like things that are maybe not mainstream, but we're making moves towards it. I'm very, very proud of the buying teams and the design teams being able to move our suppliers actually being able to help us get to that journey. And then focusing on more product stuff such as ⁓ circular verification and product end of life, such as impact. And then ⁓ on a program, what we call better manufacturing, is all to do with our supply chain. So that's environmental footprint reduction with our supply chain and aiming to lower impact. with the suppliers collaborating ⁓ their targets as well. that's kind of working with Worldly and Catscan, which you kindly introduced them at the beginning. Helena: Yes, I know that you work with the team there. I'm just wanting to ask you a little bit, I don't know how much you're able to disclose here on your, quite a lot of the partners that we work with really struggle with their PLM data and where that data sits and trying to get that data from their supply chain. there third parties that you work with a bit like Worldly or do you just have a really good internal system that enables you to start to gather that data? Lisa: being very truthfully honest data is ⁓ greener on the other side. I've been to too many brands and retailers and I've seen the data. It's, it's perfect. And ⁓ there's one system that can do the job. And that's why there's so many kind of like tech developments and ⁓ tech out there and it's needed because we just don't have the silver bullet for this. So we do have internal systems ourselves. We've tried to build as much as we can internally. but you do need. ⁓ Helena: You No, it's not. Lisa: the specialists such as Worldly and work with Textiles Impact as well, UK initiative ⁓ that all the brands and retailers and the industry together to work together. ⁓ all these kind of memberships that we pay for or advocate or partner with ⁓ are important to kind of drive that change and make it happen. So you a bit of mixture of both worlds to make it happen. Helena: There's not one size fits all at all in this whole conversation. then I do wonder, because a lot of people that I talk to, they kind of say, they complain when get to the detail that if they put forward ⁓ a sustainably sourced solution, that the increase in price could be prohibitve. But it sounds like you've found a way to move past that. Lisa: definitely, I think there's always, really need to explain the long-term gain and what's the return on investment for, not for, you know, Dunelm but for the suppliers, for the there needs to be what else does give you? You know, all of these tools, what else can it give you? what insights do you get from it? And we're like, will ⁓ I or the supplier the buyer get something out of doing this? And there always is a reason for that. Otherwise we can't sign up to it. we definitely don't have, time or money to kind of spend on things that won't ladder to anything. So I think, that's definitely the case that everything that we signed up to so far has ⁓ gained benefit for stakeholders. Helena: love that. And I know this is a big conversation that we have, know, sustainability team can't be in the silo. It's got to be integrated into the core pillars of the business. And I guess this is where you come in as well, with your design and new materials. And I know there was something that really stuck with me when we last spoke at Spring Fair. You said that design used to be about price, but today there's a whole ecosystem that sits around that. I'd love for you to bring that to life for us a little bit. Jo Seddon: Yeah, when I started my career, much ⁓ products were chosen based on what they look like and how much they cost and did they fit into a theme or a trend? That's changed so much. ⁓ now, you know, I really believe that design will be the key to getting us to net zero. Everything around us is designed from, you know, the ⁓ office I'm sat in here to the table, to the computer, to the Helena: there. Jo Seddon: machines that actually manufacture these And design really is about problem solving and creative thinking as much as anything. And about joining the dots. And I think as designers, we can ensure that products are designed with circularity in mind. It's very to retrofit. But if you have that mindset from conception that you're actually thinking of end of life at beginning of life. Helena: Mm. Jo Seddon: we design products that are suitable for more manufacturing, for when infrastructure for ⁓ mass recycling ready, we're good to go. So I think I do see design at the absolute forefront of solving this problem. I think also a designer's remit now is about designing for being inclusive for all, perhaps it wasn't previously. And ⁓ also for me, it's more about function and it's more about meeting customers needs rather than it being something pretty. It's, know, a lot of it is about, like I was saying earlier, if you look into the future, we are going to have to adapt to live with climate change and there are going to be things that we need, we don't need at the moment. So what are those things going to be? And this is all within a designer's remit to research and solve and develop and provide products for our customers when they need them. Helena: And I think that's, mean, I know, think it's a WRAP stat that something like 80 % of a product's environmental impact is determined at the design phase. I'm sure that's something I've pinched from them. I know that when Lisa came to the conference, showcased even where UK legislation's going as far as how a new home is going to be built. And know on the design side, there was some really great stuff that you did with furniture. don't know if you can tell us a little bit about that, Jo. Jo Seddon: Yeah, well, I think generally we're as a design team, we're trying to think more about how people are now ⁓ And we know that, you know, to cope with climate change, more and more houses in the future will be built over more floors and effectively your ground floor will become just your garage, maybe your utility room so that if you do get flooded, all of your, personal possessions are on a higher floor. So it's going to, cause less damage. So Helena: Mm. Jo Seddon: We need to start thinking about furniture that's less bulky and is easy to disassemble and reassemble ⁓ that you can get it up and down lots of flights of stairs. we also living in smaller spaces and more and more people now living in urban areas and smaller footprints. So we have to be considerate of that. ⁓ also ⁓ people... Helena: Mm. Jo Seddon: now invest in particularly in furniture with a view to they might use it for one purpose for a stage of life that they're at now but they might want to keep that and adapt it and potentially add to it ⁓ or change it in some way be able to paint it add legs all of those kind of things so that they can continue to enjoy that piece of furniture but in a different function so all of those things I think are completely relevant for a modern designer now. Helena: designing so like you said at the very end of the life of that product it doesn't just go down to the local tip and get crushed up that actually that piece of furniture can live on in or would be deassembled or elements of that be reused in some way. Jo Seddon: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Helena: And I'm just wondering how does that then link into all the great work that Lisa, that you've been doing in the core sustainability strategies? how do you embed that within the teams, within all those multiple teams to enable teams to start to work within that vision of ⁓ where heading to? how do you actively engage with all those cross teams, with the buying teams to make sure that you're hitting margin and you're progressing to your sustainability planning? You know, ⁓ you working a magic way to enable this progress to happen. Lisa: Yeah, so would say we spend time. We do have a separate strategy within everything that we do. That's to do with engagement and that's in every stakeholder, we need an engagement plan with them. So we have a engagement plan. have more of working groups that are much higher, at exec level. We have supplier forums as And we obviously have people like Jo, who's fantastic at spreading the word. making sure that there's a person each area really championing these areas of sustainability. But key for us that we have data for everybody. making sure that, you know, the data that we collect, share it with every single level, making sure everybody has the same message. ⁓ Don't send different types of or... ⁓ different type of databases to different people because that's when you get And setting targets all of that needs to kind of compile together and making sure that it ladders back up to the, the top again. ⁓ So it doesn't matter it's the exec, if it's ⁓ the commercial teams, if our suppliers, or even if it's the customer, it's the same message. We just trying to ladder it up ⁓ in a way that it's right for the end user or whoever the audience is. would definitely say that's been our main focus to try and get everybody on board. ⁓ brilliant thing is that we have a community of people within those stakeholders that speak the same language as us now. it did not happen back four years ago. It was not easy. And getting to the point where the buyers are asking things that I would buy. ⁓ I would basically ask. it's fantastic, or the designers are asking the right questions the table, or even the suppliers coming up to me to tell me what they're doing. ⁓ That's best feeling ever when ⁓ somebody come up to you and tell you something that you've been pushing for, and it's become the norm, become business as usual. So I think it's worked. We just need to pushing for that. Helena: amazing. I love that and congratulations because so many business really struggle there. so there's so many retailers that we talk to that are part of the POC community and so many suppliers, manufacturers and licensees that are part of our world where, you know, they're a retailer will have a really strong sustainability plan and buying teams just aren't aligned to it. It, becomes all about the margin rather than the progress of people nudging towards that. ⁓ And I think. I think it's that people don't want to do it. I just think maybe that team doesn't know what it means for them. So what is the outcome that I need? Because they're being pushed against it. I think if everybody had the knowledge in their hand, they'd do the right thing if it ticked all their boxes. So I don't think it's that people don't want to do it. I just think maybe that stakeholder engagement, that internal stakeholder engagement is actually probably the most key element to a sustainability team and getting a whole business on that journey with them. Lisa: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean we have over 30 different teams, right? I, my whole team will spend at least a couple of hours with each one of them every single season to make sure that we have that conversation. And it's not just ⁓ telling them, you know, this is what we need to do. It's them feeding back as well. That feedback loop is so important. If I don't know, you know, what's their blockers, how do we, how do we help them? it's the same with Jo. She spends a lot of time talking to billions of people and talking on your behalf, Jo, but Helena: Wow. ⁓ Lisa: the amount of time we use just on communication is a lot. but it's effective in the that it helps the journey. But we spend so much time doing it and it is, it is really, really important. And it's the same with the suppliers. It's not, it's definitely not a tick box activity. None of this is, we always explain the why, what does it lead to, how does it help them? And, ⁓ listen to their feedback as well because actually we're not the ones who have all the answers. They will have the answers too. So it's definitely a two way communication, is important. Helena: if you've got a bit of a strategy that's a bit more simplified, it's easy to understand this. One of the partners that we were talking to said, look, there's three things that they asked for. So then the whole of their supply chain knows that they're just the three things that they want, for example. And then it just means that there's a lot more solutions that come back up the supply chain because we're all so dependent on that supply chain, aren't we? nobody owns 100 % of their supply chain. There's always partners to influence. And so, you know, How does that work with your engagement plan all the way down that supply base? I mean, is that kind of just part of that, you've got your internal strategy and then does your external strategy align to that or is it a little bit different? Lisa: It has to work both ways. So when we write our strategies, we make sure that the internal strategy is exactly what we're going to show externally. your KPIs have to up to that. So all of the actions that we ask, like you mentioned, the way that try to simplify it, how do show that it ladders up to that, you that net zero program or what we're trying to achieve? that's definitely been the approach, especially at the exec level at the top level. How do we, how do we get it to a two way side? But I don't know if Jo, you wanted to kind of add to that because I'm sure you would have more there. Helena: Yeah, I was going to come back to Jo. Guess it's got to be integrated into everything that you do. Jo Seddon: Well, I Lisa touched on one of the key things for me and that's about collaboration and explaining the why. You know, we've come a long way in the last four years and initially it was really, really hard. But we've got such good relationships with our suppliers that they understand now why we're asking for this. They understand the bigger picture and they're happy to go on this journey with us. And I think that for me has been Helena: Hmm. Good. Jo Seddon: one of the key learnings that like Lisa said, you have to get engagement everywhere. Otherwise you just can't it forwards. But yeah, ⁓ I definitely like we all need to hold hands on this and to move it forwards. Helena: I know that even if I just go back to some of the conversations that I've been having with our network, maybe Lisa you want to answer this or Jo if you want to chip in, but quite a lot of people are now getting ready for ESPR, the new legislation that's coming that's very much hitting fashion and home because of the textile side of things. I know that in the UK, the UK government isn't necessarily adopting all of those elements, but if you're exporting or working internationally then definitely we have to. But also it kind of is the right thing to do to align to it anyway, especially if your business is on that journey. But it's quite complicated framework and we're still waiting for a lot of the requirements to be disclosed us. And most of that's coming into force for next year and you're buying for next year already. So ⁓ the complexities of that, how you manage that within the business? Lisa: So we, we do believe that like circularity is the future. We've been training all of the different and the suppliers on this kind of journey. know that ESPR encompasses a lot ⁓ of the of circular principles that we have internally. So it really isn't something new or for them. I think everybody is just knowing that it's just going to become a thing very, very much soon. So we've been working around product development ⁓ things like product ⁓ life ⁓ so on. So aligned as much as we can on the framework on our of our kind of larger product types. It's definitely in So for example you textiles, furniture and mattresses. So really we've been making sure the key departments are very, very aware of this and this ladders up to everybody else as well, but also our suppliers and having those conversations to make sure that we're legislation ready. we're definitely working towards it. ⁓ Jo Seddon: And I'll just add, I'm all in favour of ⁓ digital product passports. I think they're a real game changer and make the playing field very equal. also it's fully transparent. You know, you've got nothing to hide. Everything be verified ⁓ and will offer consumers the opportunity to make a really well informed decision about a product if they want to. Not everybody... will want to, this isn't for everybody, but for those who do want to know, they can easily find out. And I think in terms of looking into the future as well, you know, you're always going to know the origin of that product and where it's come from and what its heritage is, which is only a good thing in terms of resale circular business models. You so many times now when you ⁓ want pass something on to other people and all you've got is a care label, which doesn't really tell you much about the product. I love the fact you'd be able to know where it came from, where it was made, when it was made. All of that detail appeals to me personally and I think to a lot of other people. Helena: Also, think for those companies that have been on the journey to better their business over the last few years, it's just an extension of the work that you've been doing already. So yes, it's more information, but I think, you both said, if you're holding your data in one place, if you're working with your suppliers to get traceability, if you're partnering across industry for systems, then actually this is the next step to do things differently. But also it's a really great way to be able to showcase to the consumer that actually we care about this as a business because I guess it's very hard to to the consumer everything that you're doing. We've green hushing for the last however many years because everybody's scared of talking too much. So actually it kind of levels the playing field a little bit. ⁓ And that are making progress are probably excited that it's here. Those that haven't made that progress are probably not wanting to come in place, but they're going to have to fall in line at some point anyway. ⁓ Jo Seddon: Yeah, it's a neat thing. Helena: You do wonder how this then, I know we're talking about that next generation and wanting to see things done differently. And I know Jo, as part of your looking out and looking to that next generation, you've been working quite a lot with universities and see what innovations they've got coming to see how it might benefit your business in the future. Are you allowed to talk about some of that work that you've been doing? I know some you can't, but if you can mention something that will be brilliant. Jo Seddon: Yeah. Yeah, well, sort of ⁓ with universities is again, future thinking and all is good. ⁓ You we need to work together to find solutions. And the great thing about universities is they are teaching our future. And ⁓ I've working with them two ways, one way kind of like looking for future recruitment. if we really truly believe as I do that design is the solution to this then we need fresh thinking, need creative vision, we need that young blood into the business. So working with students has been really interesting for me because the universities are completely embedding sustainability into the whole curriculum. So that's one part but then the other part is working with the professors and the industry experts who are teaching within the university community and who have a wealth of knowledge. ⁓ a initiative called KTPs, Knowledge Transfer Partnerships, where ⁓ they're government funded. But as a business, if you have a problem that you ⁓ need solve or you want a fresh pair of eyes looking at it, you can engage with the universities on one of these. ⁓ partnerships and where you get their expertise and they get experience of working for a business. So I've been exploring opportunities within that area as well. So there are some really interesting projects I'm working on, but unfortunately I can't talk about them just yet. Helena: It's Maybe by the time I get to the conference, you can come and talk about it at the end of the year, who knows? But I love that idea of that knowledge partnership because actually, we know what it's like when we sit at our desk every day and everybody's just challenged with kind of delivering. And I think it's really important to talk outside of your own home, especially when it comes to work and kind of see what future innovations are coming down then. Jo Seddon: I'd love to, I'd really love to. Helena: line that might not necessarily be adopted today but at least it can enable you to kind of maybe club together, partner with others and try and bring some of those innovations to life launch of these. You're a retailer, you've got an opportunity to launch some of this new stuff to market. ⁓ What amazing privileged position to be in. Jo Seddon: Yeah, I agree. And I think one of your questions that's going to come up is, you know, what what would you like the business to deliver in the future? And for me, I ⁓ really like us to be braver. I think we've got all of the credentials to be braver. we should we should just go for it. I sometimes feel we're a little bit hesitant ⁓ in being to market with things because the business Helena: Hmm. Jo Seddon: has kind of grown really, really quickly and it's kind of been a bit of an underdog and that's good thing. You should always think you can do better and you shouldn't be complacent but I think we've got a massive opportunity to really be first to market with a lot of things and that's what I would like to see. Helena: I mean, we've seen that, I mean, we've seen Dunelm really lead in this area. You you've kind of really pushed ahead of a lot of the competition that's out there and also given suppliers an opportunity to bring some of those solutions as well. So I think that's so exciting, Jo. I'm looking forward to seeing some more of that coming down the line over the next couple of years then. And then, Lisa, I guess that brings me to you with kind of preparing for the future. Kind of what does the next phase look like for you at Dunelm as in? What does your next phase of strategy look like? know, Jo, you pushed us forward a little bit, so this is problem. ⁓ guess it's baseline and then getting everybody on the journey. And then what takes you to that next stage? What ⁓ gets past the tipping point, adoption across whole market and real reduction? Lisa: Yeah. Jo Seddon: Sorry. Lisa: and Yeah, so when get to, ⁓ well, done this a few times in different companies. So I kind of know what the roller coaster should look like. And ⁓ it's, much faster and the timelines are much more shorter because you know, you've done this and you know what works and what doesn't work. And ⁓ I think in, ⁓ in home it's been ⁓ such a just to see how it's grown so fast in the last four years. So for Dunelm we've obviously done all of the kind of what I call the foundational work. Helena: Yeah. Lisa: ⁓ product side and it's now really looking at the efforts through actions to reduce our industry's footprint as much as we can, share learnings and not to gatekeep on any of this. ⁓ So the stuff that's coming up I think is where we're at. And we've been ⁓ action-based networks through Like Jo said, we do this alone. There's no way we could do this. ⁓ And our partnership with Worldly has been that kind of movement. So, ⁓ I'm jumping back and then kind of going ⁓ into the future. Jo Seddon: Sorry I've upset the applecart Lisa: No, basically joined Cascale when ⁓ it turned to Cascale and then the name was SAC ⁓ and was very apparel focused. Our partnership was ⁓ deliberate we knew that they wanted move forward with the homeware industry and move into other and they really committed that through different kind of Helena: Yeah. Lisa: people kind of joining now into that circle. I was at an event yesterday for the homeware sector. And we are really trying to bring those other kind of retailers together or manufacturers together to make it happen. They kindly shared some stats with me, Worldly did, for the adoption rate. I mean, back in 2020, it was like 1,200-ish. you know, facilities and now it's, gone up to 2,300 facilities, ⁓ which fantastic. And it ⁓ is more and more brands that I speak to, you know, we always talk to other brands and retailers to see we can get more people to share their information and share their data, but also share how best practice looks like within the homeware industry. And it's, it's working. It's, you know, it's doubling, it's tripling. It's going to, it's going to go really, really fast. So ⁓ Helena: me. Lisa: I'm really excited to see what the next 10 years look like, but at the end of the day, we supporting our customers through this transition of circular economy. ⁓ And includes everything from the social to the environmental side. But wouldn't it nice imagine in the next 10 years, that clarity would be the norm for our customers. And it be like a day-to-day thing, like the things that we have in our house now, like recycling or. ⁓ an electric car and everything that was you know, not heard of 15 years ago. So imagine what the future would look like. Anything is possible. I think that's, that's something that we need to kind of go back to that, it seems hard now, it will become the norm in the future. So yeah, I think that's, that's definitely where we're trying to kind of push our business to, to that kind of future mindset. Jo Seddon: you Helena: love that and I think with all of the new regulation that's coming out, all the new waste framework regulations are pushing us to design for circularity, to not have waste in our business, to invest in new partnerships to enable us to keep those products in circulation. think and I know we've come to the end of all of our questions, which is totally fine. I just think it's quite exciting to look at Dunelm's place in the marketplace with the fantastic progress that you've made so far. with really your future as a business, but it being practical and affordable. You know, it's you're not a high end retailer. You're a mass market retailer and you're bringing products to market. And we've got a reduced environmental impact that are better when we look at how they've been produced socially. That's still delivering to the customer. But I love that next generation forward facing. ⁓ partnerships, circularity is all part of the next five to 10 years, because boy do we need it if we're going to meet those targets in a couple years time. So huge thank you to you both for coming in and joining me for this conversation today. And I could talk all day about the great stuff that you're doing. But thank you for showing what you're allowed to, what you can. Lisa: Exactly. Thank you. Do you mind if I ask you a question? ⁓ Sorry to put you on a spot. just, I'm very much, if you can ask me questions, I can't wait to ask you some. in this space, how have you seen the community, your community change in the last, I would say five years? Have you, have you seen a shift? what are the key things that you've seen? Helena: Yes. Surprise! I'm I mean, when I started Product to Change six years ago, people kind of eye rolled the word sustainability. They thought it was about recycling or a capsule collection. People saw it as an opportunity to sell more stuff. It wasn't necessarily embedded into business practices. And actually what I've seen as we've gone through the last five years is businesses just doing phenomenal stuff. And actually, partnering, I think it's the one area where, you know, I get all the big toy companies together. We get the retail that's part of our, that's part of our group. get the fashion manufacturers that, know, just it's amazing. The competitors that you get in the room talking about actually how we solve this problem together. And then just the, just the, the structure that's happening within businesses and to get ready for all of this, how. The conversation is now no longer just the sustainability person that sits in the office somewhere and it's the nice to do. Actually, it's become rooted into business operations. then looking at all the new innovations and how quite a lot of companies are looking at, well, we want to use that material, but we can't do that on our own because the price would be way too high. actually... ⁓ If I partner with you, you and you, then does that scale give us the option to get this new material to market? And yes, it does. And so just seeing a lot more partnerships, it's really exciting. It's really exciting when you look at, you know, then secularity moving forward is, it's hard work. It's really hard work, but that are on the journey and doing some amazing stuff, those that haven't been on the journey, you've recognized that they need to get on it and they're starting to change how they. ⁓ Lisa: Yeah. Helena: they work within this area. Sorry that wasn't a very quick question or answer at all. Lisa: See you later. Jo Seddon: I think one of the amazing things for me is having been out and about networking, talking to people. The people I come across are so passionate and I think it's giving a ⁓ real sense of purpose that we're doing the right thing and that we ⁓ in and trying to make it better or making a change. Helena: Hmm Jo Seddon: It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize, but, you know, if you're really passionate about it, you've got to be in there doing the, doing the do as they say. yeah, the amount of desire to, you know, to, do properly and to not leave a big, footprint. I want to be able to say to my grandchildren that I I tried, you know, I did try. And I think that's what anyone wants really, don't they? Lisa: Absolutely. I totally agree with you, Jo. think half the battle about sustainability is about somebody's personality. And if you're not there and your heart isn't there, you probably are not the right partnership to be working with. know, your business really cares about sustainability. And I think that's, it doesn't matter who it is. It's not, you know, just suppliers or, the, within the is literally everybody. If you're not, if your heart's not in it, you've probably lost half the battle already. Helena: Totally. And but also what's amazing is some companies that don't have a core sustainability strategy. There's one person in a team somewhere that's really passionate about it. To me, I think this, this is all about individual people, because it's that one person that actually does something. ⁓ it's how they influence that network. And of course it's amazing if a company has a strategy, but that company only achieves that strategy by people doing. ⁓ so, yeah. And I think those that aren't on the journey, they're going to get on it one day when they get left behind. So that's fine. We just keep moving forward. thank you for moving forward with us and sharing your stories. been such a pleasure, ladies. So thank you very much. Jo Seddon: Thank you.