Helena: Hello and welcome to From Intent to Impact, a Products of Change podcast to this episode, Culture, Creativity and Responsibility. Over the last five years, the brand and licensing industry has been on one of the most significant transformational journeys in its history. What once felt like a niche sustainability conversation has become central to how some businesses source, manufacture and grow. This podcast is all about capturing that journey honestly, openly, and from the people that have helped shaped it within our products to change community. We'll be looking back at what's worked and what hasn't. And just as importantly, we're going to be looking forward to the next five years and what it will take to build an industry that is fit for the future consumer. Looking at product storytelling, brand influence, and how sustainability shows up in a world where speed, identity, emotions, and global reach are so central. how we're going to operate. let's get on with the chat today. I'm so proud to be joined by two amazing people ⁓ have been instrumental in driving this journey at Universal Music Group and their merchandising on Bravado ⁓ the last few years. ⁓ had the privilege of working with and how they've evolved this conversation ⁓ over a huge global brand. ⁓ So. Let's dive in and unpack this conversation. I'm so proud to introduce you to Matt Young, who is president and CEO of Provado. Hey, Matt. to Dylan Seagal, who is head of sustainability at the Universal Music Group, which encompasses everything ⁓ goes between that. So big welcome to you both. Matt Young: Happy to be here. Dylan: Thanks, Helena. Helena: Thank you. Matt, I'm going to start with you because I've known you for the longest, so I thought that was a really good place to start. And actually, we've been on a bit of a journey together over the last four to five years. for me, it's just been so interesting to see the conversation really switch over the last couple of years from sustainability being something that's important to it genuinely being a priority at UMG and Bavardo. But I want to start a little bit more with you as well, Matt, because you've been in the merchandising and branding licensing world for many, many years and you've helped those businesses grow exponentially. sustainability has been a bit of a passion for you. And I'm just wondering if you could tell me kind of why, because you didn't have to do this. Matt Young: Didn't have didn't have to do it. Hadn't really done it at any of the other companies I'd worked for prior to this either. Some of our competition is still not doing it, which I think is insane. here guess the question is why? and would I would kind of flip it and go, why not? If at you have ⁓ the ability source in ⁓ you have the ability to ⁓ Helena: Mm. Matt Young: scale at a at a at a qu at a quick and rapid pace. The artists we work with are some of the biggest artists in the world. So if you're doing projects with these artists by default, the volume is three, four, five, ten X what it might have been for a small artist. So you're able to really create change. for me, I think it was that. It was just the challenge. It was like this is the right thing to do. How do we do it at this type of company? the company is super supportive and knows that this is a differentiator for us and knows that the impact we're making is going to change the b the business, certainly already changing the culture, but changing the business of of of and music merchandise, making this opportun this let's say an opportunity, making this what was an option become more of a standard is our goal. And we've faced every challenge, which I'm sure we'll talk about today. But I think if the a to answer your question, why, I go back with a question right, right, right back at you with why not. And ⁓ we had the support of the company to do it and was happy to to accept the challenge. Helena: And I do wonder the why not actually, because actually business has got a great opportunity to lead this conversation. And guess what? That's kind of what you've done. That is you've gone, actually, why not? Let's lead it. How do we do it? Matt Young: Yeah, I would say a little bit more a little bit more aggressively. We're we're we're gonna do this, come with us on the journey ⁓ kind of get out of the way. Helena: Yeah, I love that. wish I wish everybody had a portion of that, Matt. And I know that's what we're trying to do in the industry. And I don't want to, Dylan, if I just come to you, because I love this conversation today that we're not just having a conversation with a sustainability team, that we're having a conversation with somebody who's leading sustainability, really in true partnership with the business team. Because I think that's where the magic really starts to happen within an entity within a business. But actually even for you Dylan, if we go back to your beginnings, you're in sustainability and you've been in this all for many, many years, but you didn't start there. You're a creative, you're a storyteller. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Dylan: Yeah, well thanks, Helena. ⁓ I do say that music was my first love. I came ⁓ my ⁓ straight of university ⁓ as a music journalist. And that was what I wanted to do with my life. And I had the great privilege of having my very, very first job out of school be ⁓ at magazine. ⁓ Helena: music. Dylan: Not coincidentally, in ⁓ current life, a coworker from that job is now my boss, which is really fun. ⁓ And and ⁓ I I to this honestly. ⁓ I I came the industry I'm passionate what music can be and what music is to people and ⁓ Helena: love it. Dylan: It has been been a really interesting ⁓ ⁓ my my two passions. This idea that music is is what's going to drive drive own emotions and drive our own actions forward, combined with 20 years of working in sustainability now. So ⁓ it's been really fun. And I I I just to respond to what Matt said. I wish that everyone felt the way Matt does and acted the way Matt does around the opportunity and the possibility with sustainability. I I ⁓ that there's a lot of ⁓ a lot of people can come up with reasons why not. And lot of those reasons are simply that it's not the way we've always done this work. ⁓ And there's a lot of specific Helena: Mm. Dylan: instances in the music business where there's there are reasons why not. And ⁓ so it's kind of fun to get into how we're getting around those. So I I know we'll get we'll get there. Helena: We will get there. And even just for those that are listening, because you started out in journalism and music, and I love it's come full circle back into music with the knowledge that you've learned over the last however many years. But actually, were at Greenbrier's now, Trellis, for many, years looking and working with so many leaders across the world of sustainability, across so many different industries. pulling panels together, writing content, you really trying to drive innovation over good amount of time. And ⁓ wonder how much of that do you bring, how much of that storytelling do you bring back into UMG as an entity and at how you take some of that and start to push that back out to the wider world. Dylan: Yeah, the storytelling is to UMG and and around our strategy just as important as the reduction of our negative impacts and the creation of positive impacts because if we don't tell our story, we are losing the opportunity to use our platform of influence for good. And so we don't see storytelling as a like a a barnacle on our boat. It it is the boat. Helena: Yeah, it is. love that. Obviously, I've known Matt for what, four five years and then Dylan, you've been there, what, two years nearly now? Dylan: Two years next week. Thank you. Helena: two years nice week, congratulations on the two years, it's amazing. But what I loved is that when you joined, UMG kind of put this kick-ass impact team together of all these amazing ladies across all of these different functions. Can you just explain kind of like how that came about? Dylan: Yeah. there was a recognition around that time that the way impact was being ⁓ activated at UMG was kind of missing some of ⁓ what could what it could give to the company. That connecting the brand to impact would actually ⁓ Helena: Mm. Dylan: Help us in several of our most material issues, including attraction and retention of employees, and attraction and retention of artists, which is, of course, we can't exist without it. And the team was born. Susan Mazo is fearless leader, our chief of impact. ⁓ And the team she's assembled is across. Helena: Thank you. Dylan: everything that you could consider to be sustainability, whether social or environmental. And it's not a traditional corporate social responsibility team where you kind of give out some money and hope for the best. We are really looking to connect impact to our core brand and make it super relevant to the people that matter to us and the people that matter to us. Helena: Yeah. Dylan: Are our employees and our artists and our fans. So of course we also care about investors. We also care about you like trade associations and all of those other things. ⁓ But really us, ⁓ it's about that ⁓ our values a company are visible. ⁓ And so that's how we that's how we look at it. Helena: I love that. Matt, you put your hand up there. I you want to talk, but I was going to come and... Matt Young: No, I was she said she said artists and fans are who we do this for and Helena: of your head, there we go. love it. was going to come and ask you because, you know, let's talk about artists for a start because, you know, they are the core of UMG as Dylan said, but actually they're the core of the conversations and the stories and the merch that you're bringing together. And I think when we look at the world of brand licensing and launching products to market, I've never seen a business within our industry have to operate in the way that you do at the quickness to market, the speed to market and the scale at which you do, know, when traditionally a brand owner would have a style guide and you'd go through an approval system and everything would kind of be, everything would have a timeline to it. yeah, you have bits of that, but at the end of the day, the artist is the person that makes that final call with, you know, with the artist team. And one thing that really blew me away actually was just how well your teams work with those artists teams to really help and educate and really partner with them to do that. And I was just going to ask you, Matt, how important is that to you? How important have the artists voice to you, especially when it comes to sustainability? We know there's some loud ones out there. Matt Young: There are some loud ones, but for the right reasons. Again, why not? So, not that that'll be the theme for today, but it seems to have started that way. For us, ⁓ ⁓ about the connecting of the artist and fans. I'll refer to the banner once again, right? Our job is to be the plus sign and sort of do whatever it takes to build the bridge between the artist and the fan. And on the merchandise side of things, it's kind of the last physical element of music, right? That we st let's let's If we go back to the beginning of of why we're doing it, it's about emotion. Music creates emotion. Unlike any other art form. in the world l likes music. Some sort of music, right? Everyone on on ⁓ that's listening today probably has a song or an album or a personal soundtrack to a great moment in their life, surviving a ⁓ ⁓ drama in high school, fight with the folks. there's a soundtrack to your life, and everyone has a song that saved their life or made their life better pretty much universally when I talk to people. there's that passion that is created, there's an emotion created by music. Our job is to just try and be an extension of that. ⁓ when it comes to sustainability, some of the artists are really passionate about it. Helena: Yeah. Matt Young: Others are kind of like a little bit like, well, let me know some more. How much does it cost? Can I do it and still make the same amount of money? But ⁓ able to cater to all of them is our job. And if we take the example of of the ones that are like beating the drum ⁓ for the right reasons, the the the Billie Eilishes of the world, the Lords, even ⁓ Sir Paul McCartney is is using sustainable merchandise on his on his touring ⁓ endeavors these days. Sean Mendez, we're about to kick off a program this summer with social distortion in in in Europe. Knowing that it's available but gets people to light up. And we hadn't even been able to do that until we really spent the time ⁓ over the last four or five years digging in, motivated by Billie right? Motivated by Billie and her mom to say, you can you can find solutions for these things. How do you do that? And Helena: Mmm. Matt Young: in in using that influence just people that there are options and and exposing the company the small upstart entrepreneurial minded folks in the business that are doing these things that if we lean in on them and help them and fund fund the manufacturing for these artists through these small independent vendors, they're not small independent vendors anymore. ⁓ And the economies and the scale. ⁓ The scale comes with it, which means the price comes down and it becomes standard rather than an option. So we're not quite there yet. I think that's the first thing to admit is that this is a journey and we're taking it ⁓ one step at a time. We we made some great headway. I think, you know, ⁓ you've seen it from ⁓ outside, but when Dylan came on board here, we really it felt like we've got some gas on the fire, right? We were doing it. Helena: Mm-hmm. Matt Young: But now we're needing to get the company to support it and show that it's important for ⁓ the company overall. In addition to having the artist and fan connection, it it's just the right thing to do. So, ha how do we help get scale, get the companies to s to size where they can do these things in different parts of the world, right? It's still sort of limited in some certain parts of the world, what you can and can't do in this space, and everyone. Our our first challenge was defining sustainability. Everyone has a different definition when you ask them. ⁓ but for us as a record label, we're always asking the question is what else? Why not? What else can we be doing? How do we do this better? How do we make the right choice? How do we show all the artists the option? And and maybe sort of say, You could do that and save yourself a few cents, or you could do this and pull a bunch of fabric out of out of what would be ⁓ Helena: Hmm. Matt Young: Something that's going into the waste And turn it into something new. So it's doing something that hasn't been done before is not easy. And we can talk for hours about the challenges and the finances related to that being different. But you know, you use the term storytelling, and all of this is just about telling that story and making this something that everyone would just say, Of course I want that option. But that option hasn't been available to now. So as we take our next steps, it's about now taking it to the masses and and getting it to be used by hundreds of artists rather than dozens, which is where it is. Helena: But I guess you've got to put the systems in place first. You need to educate the teams. The teams need to understand what's the best options. The artists need to know that's available. You've got to start somewhere. And I remember we're going back all those years when you said to me, Maggie wants to talk to you. And I was like, OK, then, know, nervous. And it was amazing to see her passion. ⁓ But if we fast forward now all those years later, this is no longer just Maggie and Billie. actually you as an entity, as a team, actually having ⁓ a direction of where you want to travel and you pull all of the other artists with you. And I'm just wondering, Dylan, as far as a team with supporting Matt's team, I mean, there's so many people that work within UNG, nevermind the Bravado team that are working across licensing. I'm produced. this crazy pace as well. How are you supporting that team? I know you've done some guides and you've helped support the team with their decision making. Dylan: Matt is a an exceptional leader in that, and I mean that both in terms of the superlative and in terms of him actually being an exception, because he comes up with a lot of his own sustainability ideas. ⁓ so ⁓ the project that he was just referring to, where Bravado shipped ⁓ many, thousands, hundreds of thousands ⁓ of t-shirts. ⁓ ⁓ by barge to Morocco to be refashioned into new fibers and made into new t-shirts. That came from Matt. That was not something that I like tried to pitch. That was Matt saying, What do you think? Should we do this? And I said, That sounds expensive. And he says, we can do it. And it's not that bad. And ⁓ so we did it. Helena: Thank Dylan: And now we have this amazing foundation of incredible product to ⁓ ⁓ that pull, as that enticement to bring other artists into the fold of of ⁓ better or in this case best quality ⁓ you know material. Helena: Yes. was going to say, let's dig into that. Let's dig into that, Matt. Tell us about that. Tell us about the Halatex team. Tell us how the conversation happened. Tell us when it landed on your desk and then us the story of that. How did that even come about? Matt Young: Best. Yeah. It's worth it's worth it's worth I'm sorry, I was gonna say Yeah. Hap h happy to and Dylan, thanks for pointing it out. I excuse me, sorry. When I started here, I've been in the the business to ⁓ you mentioned before for a long time, right? Over over twenty five years. And when I got to Universal five years ago, one of the first things someone said to me said, Hey, there's a warehouse in Nashville full of old tour merchandise returns. So Bands go out on the road and they sell shirts every night, and there's some leftovers at the end of each tour. But apparently there was 20 years of leftovers in a warehouse in Nashville, which for visual I'll I'll elicit my Indiana Jones. you play the music when you edit this. But at the end of the first Indiana Jones movie, they put the arc in a box in a crate and they wheel it into a warehouse that is full of old crates. And no one knows what's in there. It's not labeled. That was our warehouse when we got here. And I was like, ⁓ that's a problem for future Matt Young. I can't deal with that now. I gotta, I gotta get the company on the right track. But eventually we kept asking the question: what are we gonna do with this stuff? What are we gonna do with this stuff? What what are we gonna do with this stuff? And it was, I think, 400,000 old pieces of merchandise were from tourists gone by over the last 20 years. And Because we were out walking, right? Because we were out asking questions, we actually stepped in some doo-doo. We found a company that could recycle cotton with screen printing on it, right? They can do it in a way that didn't have damaging chemicals used. They could do it in a way that broke down the fabric and and allowed them to spin new yarn from the original contents. And it was like, can you do it at scale? And they're like, Yeah, we can do it at scale. Now, to Dylan's point, it was in Morocco. We didn't have that ability in the States, so we did have to put it on a boat, which isn't the most amazing use of the time, andor the environmental resources it takes to get. But I thought it offset and allowed us to actually take this old stock, break it down, create new fabric, weave it into new material with other pre and post consumer ⁓ cotton waste. Helena: Mm-hmm. Matt Young: And create new material, new, new cotton that we use for new t-shirts and hoodies, and will be finally launching this summer, which is exciting for us. So it was ⁓ can we do it? How do we do it? You know, but it was only because we kept asking people, going, how do you do this? or what what can we try? And if we did this, could you do that? And we worked with a company called Halitex, which is based in Spain, ⁓ Bar Barcelona, ⁓ their their warehouse. Helena: Mm. Matt Young: And their manufacturing is in Morocco, but the company's based in Spain. And they're they're great partners and they're leading sustainability options for some of the biggest retailers in Europe already. So this was like, we can do this. There's a cost associated with it, of course. my finance guys will remind me of that every time we talk about sustainability. I get the finance guys going rolling their eyes because there is a cost to this. But the cost of not doing it is what? You can't spreadsheet that. Helena: Mm. Thanks. Matt Young: And live in that world where Can't quantify necessarily on a spreadsheet why we did it. I can tell you how much it cost us to do it. And I can also tell you there's an empty warehouse now that was full of junk that is now being reused and isn't going to end up in a landfill or a garbage heap somewhere. So I feel really I feel really good about it. Dylan: And there's a signal to our to bravados, to the UMG merch customer, that we deeply care about this and that we are willing to to make it happen and transform the market so that this becomes the norm. Because sustainability does not have to be more expensive. It's just that we've gotten in the habit as a society of doing things in a way that is cheap and easy, but that has all these externalities. So ⁓ truly believe that we'll get there. And I think that part of what makes me excited about working for a big company with this kind of reach ⁓ that we do have the opportunity to just change how things are done. ⁓ I one my early jobs in sustainability was in the world of architectural design and green building. ⁓ And watched in a the period of 2004 to 2010 green building become just the ⁓ And we out ⁓ begging contractors use low V VOC paints and to Helena: Mm. Dylan: seek out recycled content steel and to incorporate coal ash waste into their concrete. And by the time I changed jobs, things were just the way things were done. So absolutely see that trajectory here. And and think that Matt and his team along with Maggie Baird and Billie, who were the ⁓ catalyst of this work starting at umg before my time will will actually be the like historical figures that we all talk about ⁓ having ⁓ changed the way we do business. Helena: I totally agree because you've got to think of, a bold leader who's got a business and finances state. We're going to do this late same night because it's the right thing to do. But also what you're doing there is you're creating the new way of doing business. know, you've got to think of ⁓ the minute, there aren't many people out there that are doing, you know, mechanical recycling like the Halotex team are doing at scale. know, the mechanical piece enables them to do it at scale versus, other types that obviously have got a huge amount of involved that ⁓ are really expensive to do. you've, know, by you investing in that, you've enabled them not just for your merge, but that your bottom dollar that they're going to be using that infrastructure for the rest of industry, then they become leaders in that. And, I know that there's some, you know, I think when we look at sustainability and we look at reducing impact, There's loads of things that we can be doing across all of industry to enable us to kind of then scale up. think industry should be working more closely together to do that together. You shouldn't have to go out on your own. There should have been somebody that you could link arms with and partner and say, well, why don't we go halves on this initiative? And we'll save you some money as well. And hopefully, Matt, that's kind of what you're creating is people seeing this work. and seeing actually how the fans pick up on it and how people want it. And they're gonna wanna come and be a piece of that at some point. So, you you're leading the way. Matt Young: We're trying. ⁓ I I would I would love it if my competition would lock arms with us and ⁓ march in in step and and partner. I'm not waiting for that. I'm gonna draw them and pull them along if I have to, kicking and screaming because they're gonna have artists on their roster that say, Why can't I do what Billie did? Why can't I do what Lord did? Why can't I do what what Paul McCartney does? ⁓ and there's no they they can't say they can't do it anymore. Helena: No, because you're showing them that it can be done, so it's tough. Can them look bad? Matt Young: 'Cause it's it's being done. So ⁓ okay. the w it is so it can be, if you want to think about it a certain way, a competitive advantage that we're so gung-ho the space. But I'm not thinking about it that way. I'm thinking about is doing what the artist feels is important as an extension of their brand, as a way to connect that emotion we talked about earlier that they bring ⁓ with their lyrics, their melodies, ⁓ and the music. So there's Helena: Yeah. Thank Matt Young: There's a there's a real like emotional impact when we do this right. And again, another non tr spreadsheetable sort of side effect of of of of the ⁓ the the changes we're we're trying to make standard. Helena: It's amazing, isn't it? The amount of people that have said to me, give me the business case for sustainability. People want like a KPI. I even had it with an initiative that we're running. they're like, well, give me the KPI to that and I can sell it into my marketing team. it's like, but we're doing something different. It's like you're changing a system. You can try and make one up, but until it actually happens, you're not going to know the true impact of that. And that's kind of why you. Matt Young: It's actually the reverse. We're getting I get, you know, I get grief, like I said, from my my amazing finance team who are awesome. They're like, Well, the margins aren't as good on this one as they could have been. I'm like, Yeah, but look what we're doing. So it's it's almost like a running joke where they just know we're gonna do what's right for the artist and the fan, the relationship. sometimes that costs a little bit more money, but in the end, that bond that that artist has with that with that fan. Helena: Thank Matt Young: i it's sort of our responsibility to to sort of nurture you put a price on that. You can't put a price on Helena: and the finances will come. Dylan: I'm so I I you know, ⁓ and I sorry for jumping in and interrupting you, Matt, but is this has happened throughout the existence of sustainability even as a field. And the fact we business exists in a context where Helena: Jump in, I want you to. Dylan: The environment and the people involved in capitalism have not been included a cost. And it if are to exist within capitalism, ⁓ we are going to have to ⁓ basically acknowledge those pieces are left out of the typical ledger. So the finance guys don't have. Helena: Mm. Dylan: Triple bottom line ledger. They're not looking at people, planet, profit. They're looking at profit, profit, profit. And that's actually fine. We can work with that. There's no we're not gonna try and overthrow the capitalist system and destroy all of accounting in order to make sustainability happen. What we're going to do instead is show that you can do all of the things. It's not easy. And one of the things that we run into is that even artists you know, sort of our customer, our of ⁓ of and fans, they all do want do the right There's no one out there and there's no one inside UMG who's like, I'd like to pillage and plunder the earth. I want to leave the world worse than I found it. Like there's no one who's saying that, right? but they do have entrenched ideas. ⁓ was just speaking to an artist team that said, ⁓ well, you know, the artist really, she just really likes to use, and I won't say it, a particular brand. Of merch. She's been kind of married to that brand forever. And it's a particular type of t-shirt that's conventionally made. And it's one that you see in on at a lot of merch tables. she just doesn't really want to change, even ⁓ there's ⁓ really case for why it would change. And we're able to price it in many cases pretty close to the ⁓ ⁓ you know what she's paying for her conventional merch. so there's this like we have to be very delicate because we can't push the artist too hard, but we also don't want to be the sort of keeper the old guard, right? So our teams to ⁓ the the Folks in the UMG merch division tend to try and sort of add one sustainability-focused piece of merch into each selection that the artist gets to choose from and tell that story. It's like ⁓ you know, when you ⁓ come into a room where there's a cat sleeping and you pet the cat and you've like ruined that cat's life and it's going to leave the room and never talk to you again. That's kind of it artists are a little bit like a sleeping cat. You have to go really delicately, really softly, and not make like get them to not leave the room so that you can then have the good interaction that cements that behavior of buying the good thing. Matt knows I'm a cat lady. So ⁓ the cat the cat analogy is Matt Young: I I laugh, yes. Yes. Helena: I also think sometimes, I think you're right there, Dylan, I think sometimes, you know, adding it in there as a, it's not even an option to choose from. It's just the way things are done. It's just the blank that's using reduced impact materials. You don't even have to talk about you choose this or this. It just is the norm. It kind of gets to a point where it just becomes the norm. Dylan: We hope to get there. ⁓ right now I think we struggle against the tide of if suddenly all of our merch w had the sustainability attributes that we want, would be a little bit more expensive. ⁓ that ⁓ the face we want to show to our artists. We want to be able to be used by artists who can't invest, like massive amounts of cash into their their merch for tour or e-com or retail. We want want to be able to work for artists of all types and all And and yes, we want to, you know, work for Taylor Swift. ⁓ And ⁓ also want to just be democratic about it. So so we're moving delicately. We're not disturbing the cat too much. We're gonna see if the if the artist will see how they respond in the beginning. And then we can actually, once they're in the door, then we can really go for it. Helena: And it takes time, doesn't it? ⁓ Matt Young: It's almost to to Dylan's point, let's say there's you know, coup a few hundred artists that we run merchandise programs for. The conversation's different for every one of ⁓ S some of ⁓ don't wanna have the conversation, some of ⁓ like the things they like and don't wanna change. But it's the it's the nuance of understanding y you think about it, we've let's say it's two hundred, two hundred bosses. They're not all gonna wanna do the same ⁓ Helena: Mm. Matt Young: Same thing. They and the very nature of being an artist is uniqueness and having your own right outlook on life and your own sound and your own message for your fans. So by default, the the nuance of of catering the message of taking the message to the sleeping cat is different for every cat. that's really thing that takes the time, right? We now have the ability to show the option, we now have the scale to get it to be a little bit closer in price. Helena: Mm. Matt Young: It's now about education. it's not a hey, look at this. You know, we have this amazing article in Fast Company, and here's a video we made showing you how we do it. It's still hand-to-hand combat. Artist to artist education, artist-to-artist options, catering pitch to ⁓ their to how they think about their relationship with their fans. Helena: Mmm. Yeah. How do you intertwine? So you've got the vertical business where you have a lot more control over, which is obviously all of your touring where you can turn and say, okay, we've got all of this merge. What are we going to do with it? Let's invest in that because that's your own vertical business. When it comes to licensing, where there isn't the same amount of control, how do you influence that then? I know that you did some work with Target, didn't you Matt? Where everybody kind of said, okay, we want to get this to market. How do we all work together to enable that to happen? Matt Young: They were they were actually to their to their credit, they were willing to participate in a way they hadn't before. They paid a higher price for the goods because they cost more to make. The artist took a reduced royalty and we took a a much lower margin than we normally would from a profit perspective to make it work. But we can say we sold sustainable artist merchandise in Target. We were the first ones to do it. So there's a value in that. be able point to that and say, look, look at this. This is an amazing to back to Dylan's point, storytelling. This is amazing and amazing story to tell. So it shows that it can be done again. Helena: Yeah. Yeah. And then when you get to that second and that third buy with a retailer, do you get to a point where you're selling enough that kind of the margin start to level out a little bit so it's not as much as a hit first time around or you kind of still sat there? Matt Young: You hope, yeah, you know, you hope the scale, you hope the volume ⁓ all works out, but it's it's again, it's it's more more about the showing the world you can do it, even if it does cost a little bit more, because the other people will want to do it. And when other people want to do it, we'll have to have more manufacturing options and the scale will be there and the price will come down. So we'll get there. We'll get there. It's the slog. ⁓ Dylan: And it's better. Matt Young: ⁓ and as I said before, each artist is an individual conversation, hand-to-hand combat. I shouldn't use the hand-to-hand combat reference when it's talking to our artist, because that's a partnership. It sometimes can be hand-to-hand combat with our external partners who don't want to spend the extra money, don't see the upside, don't feel like they're being asked by their other ⁓ other other other partners to do things like this. So it's more and again, bespoke to each situation, a custom approach. ⁓ cajoling, you know what I mean, paying the higher price, ⁓ favors, using some favors, some some relationship credit. ultimately everyone anywhere they have a job wants to feel like they're working towards something. They want to feel like their voice is heard. They want to feel like there there's a mission and there's a goal and there's a purpose to what they do. So Helena: a lot of relationship management. ⁓ Yeah. Mm. Matt Young: We just gotta influence them a little bit and say you should be a part of this one. This is a good one. So feel really proud about the the headway we've made in the last few years ⁓ and the way UMG has stepped up is unique when it comes to big companies, publicly traded companies maybe. but we're doing it for the right reasons and we'll get the economies where they need to be. ⁓ And we'll get the artists to understand that you can do it. Helena: Yeah. And it's cool stuff. mean, I know you've done the cut and sew with fashion enter with the rolling stones, we took all much and you recut it, you know, kind of create a new design from that, which first of all, was an amazing campaign. Secondly, I'm sure the customer absolutely loved it because it was unique and bespoke. know you're doing stuff with sway over in LA, aren't you? With dying bass and taking merch there and obviously the stuff with Halotex. So, know, Matt Young: You can tell when we do our gatherings, we do our little ⁓ summits and we get our our groups together, there are a couple dozen vendors now when it used to be three or four, right? And people want to know more. And it it it it goes wider and Dylan can talk about it probably better than I can. But even when it comes to the music, the vinyl, there's now recycled plastic vinyl that holds the sound as well as as as ⁓ as as new vinyl. So the music side, we're doing this as well. Helena: Yeah. Matt Young: So this isn't just a T shirt thing. This is the the companies looking for options to meet the needs of our fan and our artists all the time. Helena: Yeah. So let's go there Dylan, cause I know that, I mean, I saw you at the beginning of the year when you came over for the Brits and you'd done some really cool stuff. I've got my little water bottle here from the event that I went to on Monday night with Hydroflow. And actually I thought, ⁓ it's just a reusable water bottle, but it wasn't just about a reusable water bottle. It's quite amazing actually that the influential conversations that were happening that evening of actually how the music industry can really drive and lead. change out there, know, more than the amount of merch that gets purchased actually is bigger than that, the influence is bigger than that. are so many, so many, you know, your is so broad within ⁓ UMG, How do you really, how you pick which bits to focus on when you've probably got lots of evangelists going off wanting to do all of the things as well? ⁓ Dylan: It's a good question. and so the ⁓ just to use as an example, the Hydro Flask partnership that you got to attend the the launch of on Monday, that project from Hydro coming to and saying, Do you guys care about sustainability? Because we really care about sustainability and wanna do a sustainability oriented partnership, but we just We're not really sure what you guys care about. And so my team came in and we together with the Hydro Flask team identified that something we could do that would make a real difference is to have Hydro Flask provide product to our studios. So we've got multiple, many recording studios around the world. This ⁓ this partnership only touches the studios that are ⁓ in the English speaking world. So there's still a lot that we can do. but the idea is when an artist comes into the studio, there's plastic disposable water bottles everywhere. That is what they hydrate with while they're in the studio, and it's in the mini fridges, in the actual recording rooms. And so these studios are going through as much as 500 bottles a month. just like out the door because the teams are drinking them because that is the option. That is how you drink water when you're in the studio and you can be there all day and all night. So now when an artist comes into the studio, there will be the the gift ⁓ of a studio branded hydro flask and a a spigot beautiful filtered water. ⁓ And the artist might still choose the some artists have their, you know, attachment to their Fiji water. They're not gonna have to have the water out of their reusable bottle, but it's going to be an option, it's going to be encouraged, and it's going to be the storytelling about our values. What is it that UMG cares about? What is it that this studio cares about? So I I talk about that not because I think. Helena: Mm-hmm. Dylan: the removal of what amounts to about 10,000 plastic water bottles a year is to change the world. It's a drop in the bucket, really, when it comes to the amount of plastic that's being used. But what we have the opportunity to do is to bring these messages to the ⁓ people are the most influential people on earth. And ⁓ if Malone ⁓ is out there with his bottle, it that matters. That show don't tell behavior matters to posts fans. so we're to do that across a lot of the a lot what ⁓ UMG puts the world. ⁓ And so really easy to start or I guess straightforward. Nothing but this is easy. It's straightforward to start with the things that fans get to see and touch. So that means merch, that means physical audio products like CDs, which are still used in a lot of the world, and vinyl records. so ⁓ opportunity is to make those tactical items ⁓ special ⁓ ⁓ have them tell the story. So the artist doesn't even have to say anything. They are simply putting out into the world the type of materials that they should be. we look at the opportunity at UMG the same way across ⁓ everything we do in sustainability. Our purpose statement as a company is that we exist to shape culture through the power of artistry. If we're shaping culture, ⁓ we shape it toward the world we want to see. ⁓ And want to see a world that. For instance, has less single-use plastic. We want to see a world that, for instance, isn't working with companies ⁓ that manufacturing from ⁓ conventional and using a lot of electricity and using a lot of water. there's a lot of other impacts that a big company has that are not tactical or not tactile. ⁓ and Helena: Yeah. Dylan: Some of those are a little bit stickier to solve. Our our biggest spend category is in products and services, which is just a massive category. And some of that has to do with streaming. And streaming is something that's a really interesting, not yet to be cracked. And so we're looking across ⁓ every impact that we Helena: Thanks. Dylan: whether or not we actually ⁓ include it in our operations or our or our scope three emissions according to the greenhouse gas protocol for those who are following what I'm saying. and means and I I am I'm now on kind of at length, but what that means is that we care about what happens on a tour, even though we don't Do that as our business. We care about what happens in streaming, even though that's not technically part of our emissions profile, because we care about everything that happens in the world that extends forth from what we do. Again, on the single-use plastics, we're working with a very big artist, and I can't announce who it is yet, on removing single-use plastics across her arena tour. And so we'll both backstage and front of house, there won't be the option for single-use plastics. ⁓ Billie has done it. We've shown that it can be done. And that doesn't accrue to my impact. It doesn't, that doesn't do anything for me at the end of the year when we do our greenhouse gas ledger or our waste ledger. but it's Getting in front of those ten to fifteen thousand people every single night for an entire tour. That's what really matters. Helena: And there's still got an impact to it. It might not be your impact when you look ⁓ gas accounting. But think what's been so exciting to hear today is actually, it doesn't matter about that. Yes, it's important to do that. But what's more important is actually is to influence culture and people out there making change that obviously love music. I'm just wondering, because I know we're kind of, your time is very precious today and I know we're coming to the very end. I'm just wondering, If we to catapult ourselves five years into the future and we look back, what we would love to have seen change, like the world that we want to see in five years time, which we know it takes time to change things, big business, ⁓ lot people, everything has an impact, what would you love to see happen? Just for both of you to give me, what would you love to see happen? ⁓ And then if anybody's listening in, they've got an option or a solution, they can, you know, come reach out and game touch you through. So what would you like to see in the next five years? Matt Young: Dylan, you wanna go first? Dylan: I have two answers to that. One, I would like my colleagues inside UMG to each have had the opportunity to have that dopamine rush of having a sustainability project come to fruition and seeing how good it is. That is ⁓ what will change what happens inside this company from a behavior science perspective. And then At a larger level, I would like to see the sustainable option become the norm. And I think that that's quite possible in five years. As I mentioned, I saw it happen in the building industry and I am pretty sure that we can make it happen here. Matt Young: I I I would I would echo that second one as well. The the answer for me is can we make the option for manufacturing and and we do all kinds of products, so it's not just t-shirts and hoodies, but that's the that's the bulk, right? That's the core of the business. So I'd like to see the core of the business to a point where sustainability is not an option. It's just the way, to your point, the way we do it. And we're getting there every year is a little bit more, right? And every artist, every one of those conversations moves the needle a little bit. So I think when we look back in those tiny needle movements over the last four years, and then we look back and say in another four or five years, all those needle movements, I don't think if you asked that question four years ago, the would we be would we be where we are today? And we would would have been like, who knows? Right? Like, so great question. motivation is to just take those baby steps every day and then you'll look back in five years and go, wow, that's a couple of miles we just cleared, you know? So I think that's the magic of just it's not a ⁓ a week phone call or a conference call with your team. It's an everyday process. And I think if we we keep that mantra and we keep that going, then in five years we'll we'll be laughing about the the changes. Helena: Yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, it'll be, I mean, first of all, thank you for being on this journey. It's amazing to see the impact that you've made. And also thank you for coming and sharing that with POC, because I know that we've, you know, always flying the flag and showcasing to industry what you are doing so they can come in and copy. If you can see somebody's done it and they're operating in a similar space, there should be no reason why you shouldn't have that foam and go, well, if they're doing it, we can do it. How have they done it? But it also takes a very unique leader to say this is important and we're going to do this. you know, I wish there was more of both of you across the whole of industry, because I think industry would be in a very different place. thank you for your leadership and your friendship and for being part of our community and for this conversation today. It's been really nice. Thank you very much. Matt Young: Yeah, w well you're part of the partnership. We couldn't do everything we've done without you either. So and your teams we're we're Dylan: Thanks, Helen. Helena: Thank you. Thank you.