Evie Mpras: Hey, welcome, mamas. Today I'm getting into division of labor, very hot topic. All couples face this, even the most solid couples. And it's not just another discussion about division of labor, right? We all know a lot of moms get in situations where the grocery list, the meal planning, doctor's appointments, just scheduling an endless run of invisible labor. on the shoulders is exhausting and unrelenting. This invisible mental pressure that's relentless. And this is great that it's getting discussed more and that moms are feeling more validated in their need to get more support and some of this pressure taken off their shoulders and shared. But there's one thing that's not getting discussed. A big elephant in the room that's not getting addressed. And it is the biggest block to being able to actually navigate the division of labor. And this block is defensiveness. Okay. Let me make this clear. If this were just all about a practical logistical discussion and dividing tasks, it wouldn't be this hard. It wouldn't be this big of a deal. And it wouldn't be such a fraught and tense conversation to have. This is not usually just one conversation. There's a reason why these conversations get avoided, why there's trepidation going into these conversations, because so much defensiveness comes up. So when the needs get laid out, when there's requests for things to be different, a partner can see it as an attack, as a harsh judgment. They can start to have thoughts like, ⁓ maybe I'm not enough. I'm not showing up in the way my partner needs. I'm not competent. And also it might strike them that something doesn't feel fair. that their own effort isn't being seen, that their hard work isn't being seen, and it can get very defensive very, very quickly. Again, if this were all about just a logical, practical task, to look at a series of items of to-dos to make the invisible visible and just divide them, this would go a lot easier for many couples. It's the reactivity that gets in the way because either something feels like a threat to a partner or something like an unfair criticism or they don't feel recognized. Now, I'll give an example. I had a couple where the mom was very tired doing, you know, cooking dinner and doing the dishes after with all the baby care and feeding. And she said in a very actually chill and conversational way, Hey, actually, it would be easier for me if you could hit the dishwasher every night. I know you unloaded every morning, but I'd really like it if you loaded the dishwasher every night because with feeding and you know, the lack of sleep I'm getting cooking is actually like at my I'm at my max capacity. And she was shocked because the reaction was quite volatile. Like it was pretty disproportionate. And he really reached out husband reached out and said something like, act as if I never do anything. And She was surprised and also angry because her request was a fair request. She needed more help. And, you know, they were both, I think, confused at the amount of reactivity, but there's also like a major defensiveness with the husband. And after our work together, it turns out, you know, when we got to the bottom of it, it turns out he was criticized constantly when he was a kid about not doing enough when actually he was over-functioning for his family a lot. And so when his wife actually shared a very reasonable request, he just had a wound around that and just had this big reaction because there was this unprocessed stuff for him around getting criticized and judged and just being seen as never doing enough, not being enough. That got triggered. And when he was able to understand this and, you know, work on his reactivity and when His wife could also tune into that and say, hey, I'm not attacking, really appreciate this, also, you know, and approach in a kind of sensitive way, those conversations got much easier. So we're using this as an example to show and share when the root of this reactivity is addressed and seen that can help unblock. Okay. And I don't know, some of you may be thinking, well, like, this is a fair request. Why should I be doing all this heavy lifting? And yes, I mean, sure. Wouldn't it be nice if every partner and all of us were just completely regulated and had processed all of our pain from our past and were, you know, like little friendly robots, but that's not reality. And moms have their triggers too. And so if you do notice that there's something really just proportionate and that one of you is doing work or going to therapy or getting support, trying to be mindful of triggers and, you know, trying to manage. your behavior in a way to be regulated and present and that the other partner is not doing that. Absolutely. That's a fair thing to be upset about and to say, Hey, I'm doing this work. I also expect that you do this too, so we can show up for each other in a better way and we can connect more. So I'm not like excusing and saying, ⁓ everybody's just going to be reactive and we have to tune into reactivity. But I think it's important to acknowledge reality that This is something that is getting in the way of division of labor conversations. And it needs to be addressed. The elephant in the room needs to be addressed. We can have conversations again and again about, yes, labor has to be equally divided and people have to, know, couples have to try to be aware of invisible labor. And well, that all sounds nice and it sounds really easy. But again, when people are getting major triggers around this for whatever reason, those conversations aren't gonna go well and they're not going to be easy and they're gonna get avoided. I see that constantly that there's like try here or there and it just goes so badly and then couples just start avoiding these conversations and resentment builds. So when a mom or a parent is aware and starts to become like have a heightened awareness during the stage of life where yeah, there's more responsibilities, there's more caregiving, we have less energy, we're not sleeping and there's just more physical tasks. There's the mental load of all the things to keep track of, so much more than before. Just coordinating. This becomes a relationship issue, right? Again, these are not individual issues. These are relationship issues. And then sometimes I see moms go into this shutdown too of, ⁓ it's just easier to do it myself. Like when they try to have these conversations and they don't go well, it's easier to just do it myself. I don't even know where to start explaining. Where do I even start? asking and having these conversations feels like more work than the actual mental work I'm already doing. Okay. But ultimately this becomes avoidance, right? And why are moms or parents avoiding having these conversations when the need is so great? Well, because they've either already experienced a reaction or they're afraid or anticipating a reaction. Again, this is the elephant in the room that's not getting addressed. right, to make these conversations around sharing tasks, sharing labor easier. And it gets adversarial, like you're on opposing teams really, really fast. Okay, there's something about sharing like, hey, I'm not getting enough help, or I need more, or something feels unfair here that just triggers really big reactions of like, I'm getting attacked. So now I have to attack you, or I have to shut down, or I have to disappear. But the thing is, it needs to be collaborative. And you guys, right, want to be in this together. And so how do we navigate this together? It has to go beyond tip for tat, who does what. And the reframe needs to be, this is not an attack, but rather it's both of us dealing with something together, okay? And we need to be able to tolerate our partners coming to us and saying, something doesn't feel right to me, without it being seen like vicious attack. when it is expressed not in a vicious way or not in hostile way. So what happens when it gets hard to get there because of all the defensiveness and prickliness around this, right? And again, this shows up with even the most solid couples. Here's the thing, I wanna be really clear about this, that it's not mom's job or one partner's job to do so much emotional strategy and articulation, this perfect way of addressing things and all the over-functioning and all the work so that the other partner can hear them and be present. I'm certainly, certainly not saying that it really needs to be reciprocal and a reciprocal effort. I will say it still does matter how it's brought up. Okay. If you want to start a podcast or grow your existing one, Juliana Barbati and her team have you covered. They handled the entire process from building episode funnels to production and marketing. So you can focus on reaching your audience. Visit julianabarbati.com and let them know I sent you. And so keep away from always, never, right? You always avoid these conversations. You never help. That's just a brick wall. That may be true that previous conversations haven't gone well, but if you approach with absolutes, like always and never, it's like starting the conversation in a dead end. It's like saying, I have already decided that you are not going to be available in this conversation. Okay. So there's no opportunity there for your partner. So you could shift to something like, I'm feeling constantly overwhelmed and it's starting to affect my mood for myself, with you, with our child. And it's starting to affect my connection. And I want to be more calm for myself, for you guys. I want us to enjoy each other more. So if some of this gets divided differently, we're going to be in a better spot to navigate this. We're going to be in a better spot to not have resentment build. we're gonna be better connected. Now, when I say this, I wanna be clear too that I'm not talking about tiptoeing around anger, like you can't share that you're frustrated. Yes, share that you're frustrated. It's perfectly natural to feel frustration with something. I would just say try to hold both and you can also say, hey, I really appreciate these things that you're doing. So they realize that they're being seen, that they're not being devalued, okay? And it's not a but it's like, see that you do this, this and this. Hey, the fact that you change the cat litter every two days, that's such a huge load off that I don't have to do that anymore. That you get up with the baby, you know, as much as I do or whatever it is that's happening. And I also need this, this and this. Okay. That can help like ease some of the perception that there's an attack going on. Okay. Also. You need to make whatever is invisible, like whatever is going on that you're doing that's not seen, you need to make that explicit. You need to make it visible. So, hey, I'm not just tired from these tasks. I'm tired from carrying everything in my head, from being the only person that has to track all these things. Everyone's, you know, our family's birthdays, who's getting holiday gifts, all the doctor's appointments, the dentist appointments. It's too much. And even when there is concrete help, when I ask, I'm still the one tracking and organizing. All of that needs to become explicit, even like writing it down, like all the things you're tracking sometimes can give a concrete visual to, ⁓ wow, that's a lot. When you notice defensiveness, that's not a time just to shut down and say, ⁓ we're never going to be able to have this conversation. You can show curiosity, right? If you're sharing something in a way where you're still acknowledging your partner, you're not devaluing them and you're stating a need that's very fair to state and ask for, and there's defensiveness. Yeah, you can name that. Name it. The process of how you guys have these conversations is just as important as what you're talking about. So saying, I noticed that you seem really angry and I'm wondering what's angering you about what I'm asking for. Like what's getting triggered for you? Have you had experiences in the past about people like asking you to something feel unfair to you? Again, I'm certainly not talking about tiptoeing or minimizing your own frustration. Absolutely not. But there can be room for both. And again, if it doesn't get addressed, the conversation isn't going to be that productive. You may actually navigate some tasks, but there might be some just simmering resentment that you're sitting with. And what's that going to do to the connection? It all needs to be aired out. What's going on? And it doesn't have to be an attack. Again, it can just be curiosity. I notice that you're getting really upset when I ask you these questions. I want to understand why, like this is something that we need to do as a team that we need to come together. If there's something you want me to know, let me know so it can get aired out. Now that's the way I would say this. mean, that might sound differently, your wording, but that's just an example. Okay. And make it about your relationship, that the goal, what is the goal of the conversation? The goal is not to rag on each other or that shouldn't be the goal, right? That's not a helpful goal. And you can state that, Hey, what are we looking to get out of this conversation? Are we, is this like attack just like a discharge of attack? No, this is actually so we can get on the same page. So things can feel fair to both of us. So we can be honest with each other and this will build trust. This will build our collaborative adapting to this new phase of life. This will bring us closer. If positive goals are stated that can also take down some of the, you know, the sense of threat or that like that we need to defend ourselves, right? It just names it. This is actually something that can bring us together, right? It's always good to pick a neutral time to talk, not during like peak stress or when nobody's gotten any sleep for three nights in a row. Expect discomfort to we got to normalize this more and more. These conversations are not the most comfortable, but they're necessary. And actually, you know, it's worth a little bit of this kind of discomfort because The discomfort and the distress that's going to happen from having resentment build up over time, it's going to be worse. So you have to think about what's the greater cost. Sitting with this discomfort and trying to tolerate my own mixed feelings here, my partner's feelings and holding both and that's, ⁓ that's, ⁓ that's hard, but we're going to do this. We love each other. want to show up authentically for ourselves and each other so we can navigate this. Or is it going to be like, just keep rushing it under the rug? Well, that's gonna blow up at some point, right? So if you guys get really deregulated, it's always okay to pause and come back, you know, commit to coming back to a discussion, not just saying, ⁓ forget it and walking away, but saying, hey, like, this is getting really tense or, ⁓ the baby's gonna wake up in three hours. I really need to go to sleep. We're gonna have to come back to this. That's okay. Doesn't mean you're bad at communicating. It means you just need some time. And if there's a commitment to keep coming back to it, because usually these are also ongoing conversations, this is not going to be a one and done. Like there's usually a backlog of some stuff going on. Even logistically, it might take some back and forth to see what works and be open to that flexibility and curiosity with each other. Again, don't expect that this is going to be like a quick whitewashing of all the discomfort around this. Remember when A baby comes into the picture, whether it's your first or your fourth, it changes everything, it shifts everything, it shifts the dynamics, it changes the amount of responsibilities, it's going to change your dynamic as a couple. And so this requires adjusting. And in adjustments, you know, people sometimes sensitivity is more heightened, reactivity is more heightened. But we have to name the fact that there is reactivity and defensiveness. If we're not looking at the process around these conversations, the conversations won't go well. We can get all the tips in the world about how to divide, you know, labor and invisible labor, and why the mental load, you know, is not is disproportionately on women's shoulders. And that's all yes, we all need to realize that that that's most of the time how things are working. But also, if we don't have the capacity, to regulate that defensiveness to check in with each other, try to take care of each other in these conversations and tune into each other, they're not gonna go well, okay? So these are common, I just wanna name really quickly, common things that can bring up defensiveness. Perceiving that someone's being criticized, unappreciated, or a perception that they are failing, okay? Something feels threatening, and those are like the three main, usual main triggers that come up. Defensiveness is not an attack on you either. It's like a partner's protection response. But these kind of protections are going to block partnership. Just imagine them as walls coming up between you guys, okay? And defensiveness, just to make this clear too, defensiveness looks like minimizing or rationalizing. I hear, oh, other couples have it worse, or I know this other couple and her husband does nothing. I do so much, right? There's a dismissiveness. It's not that bad. you're overstating it or the score keeping. This is like the most common where it gets very tit for tat. I worked all day. I did the trash. You didn't even do this. It gets just like, I mean, that's really a pointless endeavor. There's like no point to those conversations. It's just a tennis match back and forth and it becomes competition, right? That's not going to get you in the same corner, right? And then again, when we go to always or never to absolutes, you're always this, you never appreciate, you're always controlling, etc, etc. These are just, again, brick walls coming in between actually being able to have a conversation, being present with each other and giving an opportunity for a new experience in this conversation. Okay? So if you notice yourself, silencing yourself, tiptoeing, avoiding, trying to be dismissive of yourself of how this bothers you, or if you notice yourself getting I'm talking to both of you guys, if you notice yourselves getting really prickly, defensive, whether you're shutting down or lashing out, using words like always or never, getting competitive, these are all signs that, you know, those kind of conversations around division of labor are not going to be productive, they're not going to bring you closer, okay? So if we just see this as, hey, the goal is we're trying to become closer, we're trying to build trust, we're trying to adapt as well as we can to all these new responsibilities and these new roles so that we can be in each other's corner. If we can get to that place where intentions are good and that we care about each other when there's kind of a move to be protective, defensive, and there's curiosity there rather than a shutdown, that gives an opportunity so that these division of labor conversations can go better. And I really hope that this can be helpful for you all. And I know that it can be very easy for me to say these things, but actually very hard to stay present with yourself and your partner when something feels unfair or when something is very frustrating and you're in distress and you have so many less reserves at this time in life, okay? Just remember chores are rarely the underlying issue. It's what's getting triggered when the navigating gets brought up, okay? Just try to make this as simple as possible during this time. Can you be curious with each other? Can you share the good intentions? Okay. Can you validate your partner's experience? Whether they're the ones getting defensive or the ones having unmet needs, both of you might be having a hard time adjusting. And so can it be, wow, this is hard. Can we just be in each other's corner, be on the same side as we navigate this? All right. If you're getting defensive, What am I protecting? If your partner gets defensive, what are they protecting? What are they afraid of? What would it look like to approach the conversation as two nervous systems, right? Just trying to feel loved and seen and validated. And that is your duty to each other to help each other feel safe and that that's reciprocal. Okay. Then the ownership around this becomes shared instead of a competition. If you'd like more support around this, click on the link in show notes here to get a spot in my discounted pilot consulting program. I'm going to be offering an eight week couple support resource with weekly access to me and live zoom meetings on a weekly basis. I've worked with hundreds of couples postpartum. I know how to unblock the barriers to connection and peace in your relationship. And if you want to do this for each other and for your child and to create a beautiful climate, a peaceful climate in your home. Click on the link, I have limited spaces. This is gonna be launching in September, so get your spot now. I'm here for you and your family. See you next week, goodbye.