Speaker 1: you

Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Professional Fundraiser Podcast. I'm your host, Jillian, and today we're diving into face-to-face fundraising and whether or not it's the right move for your charity to grow your supporter base. The Professional Fundraiser Podcast gives you a deeper look into TPF as a whole, why we're a leading face-to-face fundraising agency in the sector, and how our years of fundraising experience can help you with your supporter campaigns.

Speaker 1: you

Speaker 3: I'm joined today by two of TPF's leaders, Paul and Kelvin. Between them, they share many years of expertise in fundraising and operations, helping charities build sustainable supporter bases and deliver effective acquisition campaigns. Together, they'll be exploring the role face-to-face fundraising plays in today's charity sector, the benefits and challenges charities should consider, and how to decide whether it's the right investment for your organization. Kelvin, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: Thank you, Gillian, who's never on camera now. She has the easy bit of doing the introduction and the closing at the end, but hopefully we will see Gillian back on camera. She did a great job, I think, in the first podcast. I'm almost a regular on here now. Almost. This is our third podcast. This is the third time that I've been on. People will be sick and tired of me soon. but yeah, yourself, Paul, you're my number two within the office. I should say first of all, actually, you're just a really great friend, actually. Thank you. And I think that that comes that comes first. That comes first. So you're really great friends and you're my my my my my deputy here for want of a better way of saying it but it always feels like a partnership actually and I think it always you know, I think we always aim for that kind of a a collaborative relationship between between between the two of us as well. Yes.

Speaker 3: absolutely. And it's it's always been a pleasure to to work here as well and work alongside you. And you know, yes, although it's my first podcast, really in intrigued into what we can talk about and is have a general discussion with you.

Speaker 2: So Fantastic. Well, I think if I remember correctly, we are talking today. I know we're reliant upon memories. You know, we've got rid of scripts and bits of paper and bits and pieces now. We're trying to keep it clean and professional. But I believe that we're talking around face to face fundraising, is it right for all charities? I've got my view. What is yours?

Speaker 3: It's a very it's a very large topic and a very deep question to ask. but I think for me, I think the the simple answer is yes, it can be. and the reason I say it can be is is it needs to be done in the right way. and for a charity to understand what their outcomes are from face to face fundraising. it's a tried tried and tested means of getting you done. Yeah, it's easy for me to say. but yeah, it's tried and tested. they know that's how they can get their voice heard, their message out to to members of the public, visibility in their own brand. but it's about talking and and having that interaction with the right types of of individuals. And that's why I mean it then when I say it can be, because if we put our fundraisers or any fundraisers in front of the right individual, the right audience that are receptive. to the the to the story, to the cause, to the charities, then it works. is when you put them in front of the wrong types of people, then you end up with with with not the results that anybody's looking for, and particularly the charities.

Speaker 2: Indeed, no, completely, yeah, completely and utterly a line behind that. I've got so many things just popping off in my mind. But one of the things that you said there actually was around it's not just about fundraising, though, you know, it is just around a raising awareness of the actual charity's brand. And I think I think maybe sometimes the wider charity actually forgets that, you know, because it's face-to-face fundraising is always led by the fundraising directorate. At a at a charitable organization, needless to say, there has to be a financial return on investment for them because there's a financial cost involved in all of this. But actually, it's about so much more than just raising funds. It's always about actually raising awareness. And we know from some of the fundraisers that we speak to, especially on some of our more sort of medical campaigns, we'll take Prostate Cancer UK, who's who's one of our charity clients at the moment, and actually just how relevant that is within the media, right now. now, just how much awareness there is, but actually I think most importantly of all what an important topic it is, and how we know from some of our fundraisers, they've really raised the awareness of prostate cancer to so many, so many men out there who have then gone and got themselves tested as well.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, we the the sign ups and the donors are are are an outcome for the the work that the fundraisers do. But what goes unnoticed is all the signposting and the information sharing that they also provide. you know, you you mentioned their prostate cancer UK that we work alongside. You know, I remember being at a show, it was a snow show in XL. and this lady came up to the stand and started speaking to our fundraiser and literally pulled her husband over from a stand that he was looking at. To talk to the fundraiser to ensure he did go and get tested. There was a history in his family of prostate cancer. And he just was almost in denial. And we know that you know from further communications that he did go and get tested. He was negative, but he did actually make that appointment with the doctor. So the power of the conversation is actually much wider ranging than just the donors that we sign up and you know, obviously become regular givers. for for the charity. So, you know, it really is super important the the messages and and the work that the fundraisers do.

Speaker 2: But you think from charity side, there might even be slightly more collaboration between their comms team, which is always I I don't want to say always, but more often than not is separate from what their fundraising team is. But actually I think there's that real real importance there about actually involving the ri wider charity and speaking about not just the financial benefits of face to face, but about all of the other benefits that are coming with it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. and again we're we're trying to to get that collaborative approach and and that information shared from not only the the like say the fundraising team but throughout the organization. it's it's happening a lot more the other way around. So where we've got the comms team and we see the information going out of the news and such like that we're informing our fundraisers of that information so they have it firsthand, they have the responses in case they get any asked any questions about. an article that may have been published or say a news story that may have gone out and such like. so it's happening, you know, so there's a more joined up approach to the to the information we're providing and having our finger on the pulse side of things. And what what we need to do more better is to get that information that goes back up the chain so they understand exactly what impact the you know face to face fundraising is having about that information sharing to the wider public.

Speaker 2: When things go back up a chain, do you think I don't know, I always think with a with a small charity, they're a lot more hands-on than what some of the bigger ones are. And it's kind of how far up the chain does it does it does it go and does it need to go? Is there a difference between the bigger charities and and the smaller?

Speaker 3: Most definitely. most definitely, you know. and like you say, the the smaller charities, everybody working there seems to have their finger on the pulse and understand what's going on and understand the impact that that that has as well and and relishes in that, you know, and and and you know celebrates the success that that goes alongside that as well. The larger charities, as we you know, we I describe them as, you know, very large tanker ships. That are very difficult and take a long time to ch turn and change direction, but also very difficult to get all the information to everybody who needs it. So it's about finding innovative ways of getting that message to them. And you know, like using podcasts or or other means of communication that people can can have and see to understand the impact that is actually happening out there in the field and getting it to the relevant people within the charities. and I think that's part of our role as an agency that we you know, actually do play to make sure that we are getting that information to the right ears and the right eyes as well. So we need to take that responsibility on to make sure it happens.

Speaker 2: I think of fundraising actually there's I think charities have to be I suppose a lot more ready just outside of the financial and the operational parts of this because you know we're saying they're about trustees, we're saying they're about oversight, and I believe it's within the code of fundraising practice as well that actually there's gotta be line of sight for charities when it comes to face-to-face and how it's how it's being run, what results is being delivered, ensuring that there is a financial investment. And even if that's not in the code of funds raising practice, you know, that is the role of a trustee as well of any charitable organization is to make sure the finances are are very well managed there. so I I suppose that there's got to be buy-in from other people within the wider organization as well. But in the bigger charities, it's hard to believe or hard to think actually, believe isn't the right word, but it's hard to think that they're talking at a board level or at a trustee level around us as an agency or how face to face fundraising is going i in in general. And trustees really need to be ready for that. But it's almost, I think, the flip side with some of the smaller charities, because the smaller charities, they don't let's say farm things out or subcontract or bring in ex external expertise in in any shape or form. That the Bigger charities so often do, you know, and we see this with the larger charity organizations. They're going to a strategic agency, to a creative agency, to a direct marketing agency. Whereas I think sometimes the smaller charities will will try and keep everything in-house and will do as much as they can or as as individuals themselves there. But then I think they, and we've seen this, they run the risks of micromanaging. It's like you've brought on board an expert. And then you want to really micromanage this campaign as well. And that can be really counterproductive within within that space. so as I say, I think I think charities really need to be ready for what face to face fundraising means for them at all levels across the organisation. And are they ready psychologically to be involved as much as they need to be involved to have line of sight, but also happy enough to be able to take a step back? And allow if they are using an external agency, allow them to be able to be to be to be taking taking the lead.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I I I wholeheartedly agree. And I think again that comes down to making sure that we are a real partnership when it becomes to an agent. and it's that, you know, we we we say we're, you know, with the trusted naming fundraising, but that word trust really does bring that home and actually creates that partnership. And when when they have the trust that we are able to deliver the campaign, not just in volume but i i in in in brand, in message, in everything else that we've just been talking about, then they don't then that micromanagement

Speaker 2: It's true

Speaker 3: becomes less and they feel more at ease and they you know they they believe what we're what we're able to do. they listen then as well and not just tell. And when they listen, that's when they gain more insights. And when they gain more insights, they gain more knowledge, which then goes up the chain and making sure that the that the right messages are being being adhered to rather than just them ticking a box to say they've done a job and managed the agency. Yes. It's actually you know, the other way around that it's not us managing them, but their insights and their understanding of what's happening is so much it heightened and and and they're engaged as well.

Speaker 2: As I'm sure you're aware, because you would have seen podcast episode two without without fail. But Ange and I we were talking about organizational culture and what makes organizational culture. And one of the things that we said on there was actually it really is underpinned by trust. And as you say, it's exactly the same with the fundraising partnership between an agency and the charity there. It's all underpinned by by trust within that space. But I always come back to, you know, we have that circle of influence where you know that sort of inside circle is what's within your control. The next one is what it is that you're able to influence. And then the sort of the outer circle is, or even outside of that circle, is all of these external factors. And I think one of the challenging things with face to face is that you're really devolving in a way what is what is inside your control, because no no party owns all of it. You know, for the charity, what's inside their control is their name, their brand, their messaging, what they do. And we can't control any of that. I'd even go as far as to say, you know, the products as well, which they have, you know, be that regular gift or sponsorship or or lottery, as as the most common, common products there within that space. And we don't really have a say or can control any of those. I think those are much bigger conversations. But that's what we're trying to promote out in the field. But then charities don't have a say either around things like what fundraisers we're putting on that campaign, where where are our fundraisers going, at what time of the year, what's the average donation value? And I think this is where both parties really need to influence one another as well, you know, and it's about open line of communication to be able to go back and say, you know what? this this product isn't i isn't it isn't working, it isn't landing, or this messaging isn't landing and resonating with members of the pub public, or we've tested it at this donation value and it's far too high, or even vice versa, to say actually we think we can get higher donation value here without impacting quality and attrition. And we've had that scenario. so yes, I always come

Speaker 3: Both, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: always come back there, as you say, this is about a partnership. And I think so often there are charities out there who will see face to face as sort of being like a golden unicorn of fundraising. and we'll hear from other charities that they're putting in, I don't know, 10,000 donors. Doesn't even need to be as many as 10 or you know, because we know charities that are recruiting 50, 60, 70,000 donors every single year. And there's other sort of charities out there who it could be 2,000, it could be 5,000. But for some organizations, that's like, wow, you're recruiting 5,000 donors through face-to-face fundraising. Amazing. We need to be getting into that. But then sort of thinking as though this is as easy as subcontracting it, farming it out, whatever you want to say, you know, utilising an external agency, and then thinking that suddenly is just going to, it's all going to magically happen. And actually I would say the biggest. and and we've seen this with some of the campaigns that we've found challenging in the past. And you know, we'll be honest, we we have and there's been some that we haven't been able to to actually deliver on because actually it's it's the charity's brand. That's the biggest thing, is how does this resonate with members of the public?

Speaker 3: Yeah, and we it's like like you say, we have we have in the past found some campaigns challenging. I'd like to think that now you know, eight years experience into it, I would probably do things slightly different. and I think it's all a you know Back particularly straight after COVID, it was about chasing some some volume numbers, you know, from a charity perspective as as as well as you know, fundraisers and an agency perspective as well. but what has become very, very apparent is you know, it is about the quality and it is about making sure our fundraisers or fundraisers are in front of the right people, as I mentioned earlier. and actually it's easy it's better for the charity. for the brand, for the fundraisers, to be saying that a lesser volume of better quality donors is the right approach. And therefore, if the you know you you'd say about the brand, I think all charities have a have a have a good brand because they're all doing fantastic work for the end user or the end cause. but it's about identifying the types of people who will resignate with that. And putting fundraisers in front of them in those in locations where they live or in in shows where the activity is is is based around the demographic that would would want to give from that. And actually, rather than saying we'll get 10,000, saying we'll get a thousand good quality donors is much better and and and much more not only achievable, but you the from a charity perspective, i it's a better outcome for them. Than it is chasing 10,000, of which nine and a half thousand cancel within the first year, and it actually costs, you know, and there's no return on investment for the charities whatsoever. so you know, that's how I would probably change what we've done in the past, but also where I feel the the the charities with maybe a more challenging brand should be focused on, not on a volume, but on the right quality and the right type of donor.

Speaker 2: I would agree because as you say, if if it's challenging to to make campaigns scalable, at least make it quality led, you know. And I think that that is actually probably one of the one of the advantages that they've almost got is because it can be so niche, you can really tailor it and refine it and get on board the the actual quality. I'm thinking about campaigns like I we've never worked with any of these charities that I'm about to say. And I'm making some wide assumptions, some wild assumptions here, but I'm thinking, and this isn't a small charity by any means, but I'm thinking Greenpeace, because I know that when they go to events like Lastonbury or Festival, that actually they're really honing in on a fantastic audience for them, far more so than if they're just going to a local Morrison store or whatever the case might be. But I think even more refined charities is going to be those like Sustrons. I believe I don't think Sustran's is their name now. They might have rebranded, but regardless, the cycle path charitable organization. And you can imagine if they're fundraising on cycle paths, then they're speaking to that prime audience. I'm thinking about Canal and River Trusts, and again, fundraising on the actual sort of riverside walkways at your locks, at your canals, bits and pieces like that, just a prime audience. we had the Ramblers Association reach out to us a couple of weeks back, didn't we? And again, you just sort of think, actually, if we're in the peak district, Snowdia, wherever, and actually we're we're speaking to a really good audience. But that comes back to what you said right at the very start, which is all about it is putting putting that charity's brand in front of the most relevant audience for them.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely. And yeah, exactly that, you know, is it is thinking outside the box, you know. Anyone can go to a a supermarket in a in any any town and hope you're gonna find someone who resonates with that charity brand. but actually what what we should be doing is is tailoring the the campaign to to meet the demands and the need. for for the charity. and you're right, you know, the Ramblers was was one we talked about and approached us the other week. and you know imagine that at the bottom of Snowden, you know, when and and you've got all the right people. But even beyond that, what else do they like doing? They're clearly outdoorsy type people. So again, other other activities that would involve nature and and that side of aspects as well. Where would they go shopping? Well, great outdoors or, you know, those sorts of

Speaker 2: Both sort of sort of clothing brands and yeah.

Speaker 3: So make sure we're we're in those sorts of environments. so it really is about tailoring to be able to get the right the right people. As I, you know, as I say, it's it's much better to have high quality and the right donors than looking for volume and and and have high cancellations because that that's not helping the charity in any way, shape, or

Speaker 1: perform.

Speaker 2: And you've been listening to podcast number one, where I talked about buying a boat to be able to funds funds TPF in the early days. But one of the other things I said on there is that we we as an agency are all about quality. And I said, you know, there's a dozen other agencies out there, and charities kind of they do I was gonna say they do have a pick as to which agency they're going from, but we also know there's huge demand for face-to-face. And actually I do think that demand has always outstripped the actual supply of it. But we'd always say to any charity, you know, if they're looking for if they're looking for really high volume and all they're really interested in is the numbers, don't don't don't don't come here. You know, we are we are about quality. We will not dilute the integrity of what we do to be chasing a number if all they want is more, more, more, more, more, then and there's some charities out there which really do punch above their weight, then we're probably not the right agency for them. But it just gets me thinking that choosing an agency partner for face-to-face is so pivotal. And my biggest piece of advice to any charity is w we have a lot of charities come to us. And I think that they see, you know, we've been established now for 15 years. we've got a really strong infrastructure. They see that, they see the size of us as an organization. We are one of the bigger agencies within within the sector. I think they see our portfolio of clients and the volume that we produce for them and the longevity that we've had with these clients and they think, fantastic. TPF must be doing a fantastic job. We want to work with them. But actually, what they're not then seeing or recognizing is the fact that their campaign has to stack up within our portfolio charities, both from a strategic aspect of if capacity gets tight, or we're only allowed into. a certain venue with one charity and we can't take everybody there, then actually who is it we're going to pick? And there's going to be commercial reasons which are going to lead lead lead lead a decision there. But equally from our fundraisers as well, and even when you cast the monetary side and what fundraisers want or need to earn to one side, if you want to be working on a campaign which is enjoyable, where the public are receptive, where you're having engaging conversations and not the rejection. So sometimes I fear that, you know, we have charities approach us wanting to work with us. And it's like, look, you know, you're you're a great camp great charity. Yes, face-to-face is right for all you, but we're not the right agency because your campaign does not stack up amongst our portfolio. And and my biggest piece of advice, you know, on that note to charities is to say, work with an agency where you are the biggest fish within that pond. Because then all of the fundraisers of that agency will want to flock over, work on your campaign, and commercially the agency, you know, from a strategic point of view, is going to be focused on investing in your campaign moving forwards as well.

Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I I again I don't disagree at all. I think the other thing that goes alongside that, and you you touched upon it, is is the fundraisers. so many times during the tender process they look at the commercials, they looked at they look at the agencies and the policies and the procedures that we have in place. but they don't actually look at the fundraisers. And actually the fundraisers, you know, w for them to be engaged in the campaign, for them to be the right fundraisers representing the brand, they almost have to marry and and match up to the demographics of the people that they're talking to and want to become long term quality donors as well. we you know, we we know that s a a a fundraiser Who has the passion and the energy and the enthusiasm for the charity that they're representing, let alone maybe having some previous experience of either representing or being using the charity and such like as a personal infrastructure, if you like, the the the better that you end up having those conversations with the with the general public. You know, it's it's one thing that I think that from a charity's perspective in a tender process, they don't look at the pool of fundraisers that will be out representing them. You know, is that pool of fundraisers big enough to meet the demand? Is it, you know, small enough to meet, you know, more, you know, smaller re requirements? But you know, yes, it's great. They look at the agency and they look at the commercials, but actually the people out representing them are abs you know key to making it a success, you know, and getting those right and selecting the right people to represent the right brands and the right charities is absolutely how we make make make all of the campaigns a success.

Speaker 2: I think you you're so right. I hadn't even it sounds silly. It sounds really, really silly. There we go. It's taken me 15 years to realise that. And it is, it is it is about the fundraisers out in the field there, you know, they are the biggest asset and they are the ones who have, let's just use the term, they have to buy into this, you know, they they really do. And sometimes that's not just about the charity campaign, that is about the product. And I I said about, you know, a charity needs to stack up within that agency's portfolio. And that's not just, I think, in terms of the brand, but that's also in terms of actually what are we offering here? Yeah. You know, we think about so many of our clients who are offering multiple products in whatever form that is, membership and lottery, regular gift and membership, whatever it is. and when we've got a charity comes along and says, we only want a lottery campaign, or we only want regular gift, and then suddenly it's like Well, you're positioning yourself at the bottom end of our spectrum anyway, you're making yourself less attractive to fundraisers wanting to work there. So as you say, I think they've they've really got to think about that. But as you said, you know, there's so much due due diligence in terms of the policy work, but actually just recognizing the fundraisers who are going to align with the campaign. And and I'd say that there's been a shift in recent years from More charities saying we want to work with an older demographic of fundraisers because that older demographic delivers better attrition. And there is a correlation there. There is a correlation there. However, I think it's about again understanding who who the audience is and what kind of charity this is. You know, we think about one of our clients. I'm thinking here about the Royal British Legion. I could, I could choose many of our clients here. know, but you take the Volvish League Legion, they're very, you know, they're the national custodians of remembrance. You know, this is a this is a charity that's kind of rooted in in heritage really. And I just feel, you know, it sort of naturally gravitates towards an older audience of both supporters and fundraisers. But potentially a different charitable organization, I'm thinking here, like Amnesty International. Maybe that is leaning a little bit more towards your sort of your Gen Z, your Gen Ys, younger fundraisers who are going to perhaps resonate with a a kind of charity like that. And it's not about it's not as easy as saying, well, we want older fundraisers because there's going to be better attrition. It's actually, well, you know, you can have the best attrition in the world, but you've got to have a supporter to start off with. We've got to be able to recruit somebody here within this space. And sometimes that catchment of of fundraiser isn't always appropriate. But it works, I think, the other way around as well. I think, you know, I know charities or agencies who've worked together on on certain campaigns where we've we've done a great job for them and an agency that has a younger demographic has really struggled, and vice versa as well, you know, where we haven't been able to to to actually deliver, but that agency with a younger demographic of fundraiser has. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely. And the the other thing that I was just thinking and popped into my mind was as you were talking there, is also it's it's almost our again, our responsibility to to find the next generation. And I mean that in fundraisers. and so you know, and and and I might what immediately came to my mind was, you know, another eight, you know, another charity that we work with, Catch Protection. When I first started.

Speaker 2: Supporters. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Typically the demographic was, you know, 60, 70 year old female, like cake and bake and and knit and stitch shows and and such like. And that was the demographic that that was signing up and and and being good supporters for for catch protection. And you know, we fast forward to now and you know, we get more supporters now from attending comic cons and vegan events. And actually that demographic of of of supporter is the next generation. Coming through. And it's about, you know, I always talk about being on the right bus at the right time, as you know. but it's about a lot of analogies. I do, I do indeed.

Speaker 2: They're all good, but I can't keep up with just how many there are. That can be a podcast series on its own Paul's analogies.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. The but it is about, you know, understanding that next that next stop, you know, because if we just keep doing the same and and going for that sixty or seventy year old lady with knit and stitch, they're gonna run out eventually, you know, and and there are are only so many of those people there to be able to sign up. So but we need to like say we need to find that next generation. Where are they? And and make sure that we are again putting the you know our fundraisers and the message as well, you know, from the charity partners, making sure they're relevant to to that audience as well. You know, and it might be that that message is different from an for the older generation compared to the the newer, younger generation that that are coming through, as well as our fundraisers as well. And like say it's us understanding that next generation of fundraisers coming through, putting them through that and and and that training, but understanding that process. that that goes along and again they might start on a you know, you used Amnesty International as an example, work on that campaign to start with, and then they might transition into Bro Royal British Legion as they become more mature, as they become more in line with the demographic that that would be signing up for for Royal British Legion versus Amnesty International.

Speaker 2: Yeah, as you say in this I always talk about diversity because everyone always sees I'm really going a little bit off piste here, but everyone always sees topics like diversity as being something separate, but actually this is where it's just organically embedded within an organization. And I think diversity is when it works, and and almost the business case for it is about being representative of your audience. You know, that's the business case for kind of, you know, diversity there. And that's exactly what it is that you're saying. As you say, you've got sort of as an agency, you've got different pools of clients, even different products within that as well, different motivations for giving. And it's about really making sure that the the fundraisers out there are really representative of the supporter base, which is very much, I suppose, resonates with with that actual charity, charity campaign. I was thinking as as you were speaking there as well, because I mean one of the things that we haven't spoken about is the charities that face to face isn't isn't right for and isn't appropriate for. And are there charities out there where actually we turn around because we do. We we politely Turn down a lot more charities who send us inquiries than we actually accept. And I think that that's probably the same for the vast majority of fundraising agencies out there. Sometimes this capacity, and I never really like the word capacity, because when and we have this, we have a couple of really large campaigns, and we would say that they are at their ceiling, and we would say that we haven't got the capacity to be able to do more. And I think that's not just about. Having more fundraisers to go on there because maybe we've already got 50 fundraisers working on that single campaign. But when it's private sites as well, and you've got to find 50 venues every single week, and you've got to keep those venues fresh and you don't want to oversaturate them, actually, there does become, I think, a limitation as to as to how big a campaign can actually be. And I think that's where capacity comes into play. But Otherwise, I think charities, you know, if a campaign's sort of f faltering a little bit, if it's slow, if it's sluggish, and you're not getting fundraisers on there, it's never about capacity for me. It's about engagement. And it's saying, you know, we've got 70 fundraisers on the team, but actually they're just not resonating there with that particular campaign. And I suppose that's my point. You know, are there campaigns out there where actually face-to-face isn't the right channel and they should be putting their money into community fundraising, major gifts, legacies, digital, whatever other forms there are out there, should they be putting their sort of both their spend and their time investment elsewhere elsewhere?

Speaker 3: I I'm always going to be the advocate for face-to-face. having said that, in you know, the charity needs to do its due diligence and understand what return on investment it's looking for, and what they feel would be you know the best way of getting that that return. you know, there's so many forms of of fundraising and and opportunities for for charities nowadays. But what I would say is, you know, again, it it's If if someone if if a charity chooses that face-to-face is right for them and that's the that you know that they are wanting to go down that route, it's about making sure that it's the right, the right size campaign. And you know, you talked about venues and such like. You know, that you know, have have the knowledge before you go into it, whether it's gonna be, are we gonna be represented by 50 fundraisers every week, 52 weeks of the year, or actually are we gonna have two fundraisers? once a month for 12 months of the year. So we're only, you know, so it's and and actually the outcomes and the engagement, having that smaller, more periodic weight might work for for for other for certain charities and certain events and certain fundraisers as well. so it's having having your eyes wide open and not not pigeonholing yourself when you're approaching an agency to do face to face fundraising of But I want someone out every week. They have to be in, you know, the certain places and and you know, shopping centers or or or supermarkets, you know, every single week. And I want to have, you know, 50 donors, you know, by by Wednesday. it's just not not feasible, it's not realistic. and I think that that's all too often why sometimes these approaches fail for for want of a better phrase, is because their own Yeah, blinkered approach to

Speaker 2: As a misalignment of like an expectation there, exactly.

Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I just feel that if they had gone there and there were their eyes open of how what's your suggestion? How would you approach the campaign? Why would you like to to do it in that fashion? I think they would end up with more opportunity to choose an agency than a a a very straightforward, blinkered, one way approach.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. No, I I completely absolutely agree. You know, we we s we have seen this. We have seen this. and again, we understand it from a charity point of view. They've got a budget which they want to invest into face to face, and that's within a financial year, then it doesn't matter if it all gets spent at the start or at the end from a charity cash flow point of view, by and large. But it does matter to them in terms of when they start to get income. And they'd much rather have the expenditure at the start of the campaign. So actually they're getting the income in as soon as possible within within that time. But if that's enforcing the point of perhaps going to, especially in private site fundraising and in street fundraising as well, if that's enforcing that agency partner to be sort of going, or even an in-house team, to be going to places where it's not yielding the best quality. But they just need to be able to do it to be able to get in a number, then that's where they see the longer term attrition. So as you say, there's gotta be a real expectation, which I think is probably what I was trying to say at the start as well, actually. It's it is it's that education piece and what are we really after w within this space as well. And thinking about the budgets, I think it's being realistic there about the budgets as well, because you know, there there are there are Charities out there who will come to us and will say, you know, we've got £25,000 to spend, £50,000 even. And I think the vast majority of agencies within this sector work on margins, you know, profit margin of somewhere between 5% and 10%. And then they've got to pay 25% corporation tax on top of that as well. So a charity comes along and says, Here's £50,000, this is what we want to spend on. our face to face recruitment campaign, and at best you're working at a margin of 10%, and then you're paying 25% of that. Suddenly now that agency's made 4,000 pound profits. And that's it's not, it's it isn't, it isn't appealing. It isn't an appealing proposition there for that for that agency because of all of the time investment that goes into being able to do that. So I think that sometimes this is where just from a monetary investment. point of view, a charity that has a fairly limited budget, let's say, face to face, from an agency point of view, is probably out of bounds to them. but you know, I'm thinking about organizations now like the Wildlife Trusts, because sometimes, you know, an organization like that might even have just a couple of in-house fundraisers, actually, because you know, they're they are sort of bound by their geographical county boundaries. or What we've seen as well is actually they're almost forming a conglomerate, as it were, or an affiliation is a better way of saying it, between between other counties. And maybe this is where, you know, hospices come into play as well. I think, you know, hospices are well, they're fantastic organizations. from a face-to-face fundraising perspective, I think they're always going to perform really. really well just because they resonate with so many people and they've got such a large brand awareness within their local communities. I think the challenge though for an agency is that suddenly recruitment of fundraisers is always the biggest problem within face-to-face or the biggest challenge within face-to-face. So then you're trying to nail that to a really confined geographical region. And then there's the volume and the time investment and everything else. And then suddenly May maybe this isn't this isn't an appealing proposition now. It becomes a bit too much for the sort of finances involved. But that's where actually coming together. So there's a group of hospices or group of wildlife trusts, whatever it is. and then suddenly it's like, okay, this is this is workable now, this is working.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And and I think, you know, the I think there's a couple of a couple of things that spring to mind when you say that is first of all, charities sometimes need to understand their reach.

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 2: It's a nice way of saying it.

Speaker 3: as an example, you know, there is a certain amount of of reach that that name goes to. and when you're within when you do have those constraints and certainly geographically side of things, how big or how much of donations can can we get through? And and like you say, you know, therefore if if someone's got a fifty thousand pounds spend that they that they wish to do, actually is an agency the best route for them. Yeah. It doesn't say face to face isn't the best route for them, but is an agency the best route. and I utili I I use an example, something that's close to my heart most recently, the role orthopedic hospital. you know they they they run their own charity there as we as we saw but all volunteers in the hospital for people who were were visiting or utilising the the the the hospital and the services that were provided there So actually they understood their reach and actually their money was much better spent, you know, on on that internal work that they were doing and and and and the sign-ups rather than knowing that they couldn't really go much further because just that resonant name just didn't have that within them. or like you say, then they have to join with others. and again, prime example of that i i is the hospice lotteries, you know. You know, and the all going in together, they knew that therefore that they could you know, it from their external lottery manager and such like, they were going to get a bet much better return on their investments as well, rather than, you know, most of their earnings and most of their donations, I should say, being being paid to the external lottery manager rather than going to the the charity themselves. So it's internally, you know, when we talked about the trustees and and and what happens within the charities, but I think internally they need to understand that reach first, think about if if face to face is still what they want to do, therefore is it volunteers, internal team or agency that that they need to go down the route of. And only at that point, you know, what what they they want to get out of it. And, you know, therefore they can then put that investment in the right places.

Speaker 2: And you use the example there of hospital and of course your your own experience in the last in the last year. But we, of course, have worked for a hospital charity in the past as well, a very different hospital charity. And we know that our fundraisers achieved tremendous results in the actual hospital itself are so emotionally draining for those fundraisers. And I suppose this is the other, you know, to answer the question that is face-to-face, right for all charities. And we said it's it's so much more. than just fundraising that has to be taken on board. And, you know, are you sort of psychologically ready as well as operationally ready? And and we know how many charities really strike a chord emotionally. But I remember one of our fundraisers who worked in the hospital then who said that very rarely are you speaking to both the donor and the service user to put it in those into those kind of terms at the same time. You know, we may be Out in the Morrison store, wherever it might be, within the UK, talking about prostate cancer UK and or any of the other charities, you know, I can use cat's protection there. You know, and yes, we might be speaking to somebody who decides to make a donation, but also somebody who's maybe re-homed a cat from the charity as well. But within the hospital, every single person you're speaking to is one of our service users, they're one of the beneficiaries there. And how emotive those conversations. were. Yeah. And I know the fundraiser who we had in Nepandominantly, I think left in tears at the end of every single day, just emotionally drained, emotionally exhausted. But also said she never wanted to work anywhere else either, because of just, you know, how fulfilling it was. But again, it's having the right fundraisers to go into that setting. And the right supports, you know, and and as you say, it's it's not about raising funds here. Well it is about raising funds. It's not just about it's not just about raising raising funds within within that scenario. So much to think about.

Speaker 3: Yeah. No absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And again, it's sometimes it was the, you know, again, I know obviously the fundraiser you're talking to, and and she was often say that actually it was just an ear to be given, you know, and and listen to to the service user, as you say in their emotion emotional stories that they would tell. because they just wanted to to speak to someone. so you know, like I say at that point it isn't about you know, raising the funds. it is about being that right representative. And we talk about brand ambassadors and and and such like. And that truly was at that stage.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And we started the hospitals by saying about the reach, because that was a prime example of, as I said, you know, enormous reach within the hospital. And it naturally had the corresponding attrition with it as well. You know, the the quality was was excellent there because of the affiliation the donors had with with with with with that charity in question. Outside of the hospital was really difficult. It was very sluggish. I think those sort of fundraisers who were working in both those kinds of venues then became quite sort of tired and exhausted and demotivated on the campaign. And actually then you gave them the opportunity to go inside the hospital and they'd be like, I'm just I'm just exhausted on this campaign, actually. And we see that in so many times when you don't get the the venue right or the location right. But again, it's because you're trying to chase a certain A certain number, and you can't achieve that within one location. So you've had to move outside of it. But every time you keep on moving that boundary, and that doesn't have to be a geographical boundary, it's just a boundary in terms of you're getting further and further away from that core demographic, the harder and harder it then becomes, the higher the attrition becomes for the charity. But also there becomes a point where it's no longer commercially viable for the agency as well. And the fundraisers are just becoming slightly more disengaged. disengaged with every every single part. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, you it's also the donor becomes almost disengaged as well because you know the further away from the core demographic, they might feel that it was the right decision at the time, but by remorse, you know, soon comes in and that their head rules their heart. and naturally you know, we find cancellations then increase. whereas when it is as as I've said throughout this throughout this podcast that you know, the right demographic the the right person we're putting our fundraising in front of to have the conversations, then that's when we know that we're going to get the goods and and and the best attrition that we can for them. So, you know, in having those conversations with with the like you say, that that that boundary and you've kind of pushed it, you know, you might have in every hundred conversations, you might have one that really resonates and and absolutely will will be long term donors and actually be fulfilling. whereas when you're closer to the core, you know, you're talking, you know, probably two in every five conversations that are having that. So, you know, just from you know, they say that engagement, that motivated motivational piece. and just, you know, that, you know, you've got to have a certain amount of resilience as as a fundraiser, as we know. but even even then, you know, even the people with the biggest resilience, you know, one in a hundred is tough. You know, whereas at least two in five. Yeah, it's enjoying it's enjoyment. You know, 'cause our fundraisers love talking about the charities. They love imparting that information. If they don't get to do it, they get frustrated. the more they do it, the the the better that they they enjoy their day and their day goes quicker.

Speaker 2: It is So we we we say it internally. do what gives you energy. And actually, if something doesn't give you energy, find somebody else who you can delegate it to who really enjoys that kind of stuff as well. And it's so true, I think, for our fundraisers. They've got to do what gives them energy. And if that campaign is is draining for them in one way or another, because actually there's too much But was going to say too much negativity. That isn't quite the right term. You know, there's just not the volume of people signing up. It feels, it feels difficult, it feels challenging. It's not necessarily sort of resonating with members of the public, who is just emotionally draining, or whatever the scenario is. But you know, that's where campaigns begin to falter. So it just comes back to the overall strategy. I I think for me, you know, the biggest thing here coming out of this conversation is yes, you said it right at the start. Face-to-face can work for all charities, but it's not as easy as great, let's find an agency partner, let's hand over the whole lot to them, let's maintain line of sight, and everything, everything will be good. And I don't believe that any charity goes in with such a blinkered viewpoint at all. I I really, really don't. But we know that every single person, every single organization is always bound by time constraints, resource constraints, financial constraints with it as well. And sometimes you do just sort of want to be like, you know, I just thought this was going to be easier than this. but I think for me it's the it's the proposition, which is so important. They really got to think, okay, if we're gonna do face-to-face fundraising, do we have the reach? To be able to do this in volume? What's the kind of limitations for us, both geographically, both in terms of of donor volume? What are our real priorities here? Are we after volume? Are we after quality? and who is our donor demographic? You know, who are we really trying to attract? Where are we going to find them? And then start to think about: okay, is is that spend with the agency Going to be an appealing proposition for them. Do we need to look in-house? Do we have to think about forming a coalition? That's a better word, actually, isn't it? There we go. Do you should should we probably end up with a coalition government? Again. Should we be forming a coalition with other like-minded charities within this space? If we are working with an agency, who's the right agency? And what what am what am I looking for in terms of choosing? Very good, that's another podcast. What are we looking for in terms of choosing an agency partner as well? And how do we build the trust and the partnership with within that? So for me, I think it's all about the proposition I didn't even mention there as well about product, average donation values and everything else that goes along with it. So yeah. But what about what about yourself? Is there a key a key takeaway?

Speaker 3: I think again, it's you know, it it's about it it's about being open, honest, transparent in in order discussions from you know from the from the charities, particularly when they're working with an agency, around what their like you say, their wants and desires and outcomes are. you know, and again, you know, we need both sets of of people there to listen. to put those and not just have their their own blinkered agendas of what that outcomes need to be or or how they will be achieved. Because if we're all aligned, if we're all on the same page before a campaign even starts, then the campaign can be successful. and ultimately that's what the face to face campaigns need to be. They need to be successful for everybody you know, on all on all fronts and everything that we've already touched upon today.

Speaker 2: Like you said, there's there's like three partners within this. if you're using an agency, it's charity, agency and fundraiser, and it has to be successful for all three of those to be able to make the overall campaign success.

Speaker 3: Same. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the TPF Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a colleague on LinkedIn or let your fundraising friends know about us. We're back here twice a month with a main episode and a mini sode featuring fundraising insights. So be sure to subscribe to our channel so you're notified whenever we have new episodes out. We're streaming on Spotify and Apple Podcasts with video versions available on YouTube. You can also find us on Instagram via at Profundraiseruk for more on all things TPF. We'll see you back here very soon.