speaker-0: Welcome to the Professional Fundraiser Podcast. I'm your host, Gillian, and I'm so excited to be kicking off this monthly series about all things professional fundraising, insights into the charity sector and lots more.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: In this podcast, we'll be taking you behind the scenes of our agency from exploring fundraising strategy and how an organization like ours operates to hearing stories from our fundraisers in the field as well as sharing wider insights across the sector. And to kick things off, I am delighted to be joined by our CEO and founder, Kelvin. Welcome, Kelvin!

speaker-1: Thank you, thank you. And ⁓ thank you very much indeed for ⁓ hosting hosting our new podcast series.

speaker-0: I'm very, very privileged to be doing it. It's very exciting and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today and ⁓ finding out Well, I don't know. I think it'd be really interesting to find out about ⁓ how you started in this business, find out about some of the challenges and yeah, so ⁓ why don't you kick us off and tell us about how how did you get started in this business?

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. So we're going back to ⁓ 2011, 2012, ⁓ actually even even before then, it was 2006 when I came into the sector. And my career up until that point, I'd been in sort of managerial, senior managerial ⁓ positions ⁓ within larger corporate environments. And I really, I really didn't like them. One of the companies I used to work for actually was British Home Stores. Okay. And I remember going to ⁓ I was a store manager for British Home Stores, and I remember going along to a store managers conference and And Sir Philip Green. I don't even know if I should be using the sir in front of his name. It's a little bit of a controversial knighthood there. ⁓ but he he came up onto stage and I just sort of remember him saying, you know, if we all give an extra five percent more work, an extra ten percent more hours, it was something, something like that.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I was exhausted. I was absolutely exhausted because I was in the business from sort of six, six thirty in the morning. I was still there at eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night. And it wasn't it wasn't a great culture. It really just it really wasn't a great culture. And I remember sort of flicking through a newspaper. ⁓ I was around it by parents at the time and I was just sort of flicking through the newspaper. This is I say this is two thousand and six. I mean this was twenty years ago. Not that long, but you just don't get Jobs advertised in local newspapers.

speaker-0: You don't anymore. Obviously I was around twenty years ago and that seems like a perfectly normal story to me to be looking in the newspaper. But yeah, you're right, we don't anymore.

speaker-1: Houses, jobs, all advertised within within within the ⁓ the local the local rag. and I spotted a a position in there for a recruitment manager for this charity fundraising organization, knew nothing about charity fundraising whatsoever, but I really enjoyed the HR aspect of my of my role. ⁓ I really enjoyed the people aspects of of of it. ⁓ so I I applied, ⁓ was fortunate enough to be to be to be given the ⁓ The actual role and and the opportunity there. And as I say, I worked with this other agency for six years. And ⁓ my word, there was a lot that went on in the sector at the time. There really, really was. So the way in which this other agency operated is they ⁓ and this was this was common within the sector. This was very, very common within the sector. Not so much now. I think COVID has changed a lot. But back then ⁓ it was predominantly students who would be fundraisers. So very different business model from how we operate now, ⁓ a professional fundraiser. ⁓ and all of these students would work in teams about five, six people, and we provided houses for them to live in. And each ⁓ each team also had a car as well to you know help with ⁓ mobility and bits and pieces and and all of the ⁓ logistics. And The cars got trashed. I mean the cars it was like dodgums, you know, they they really did just get trashed and all of these were lease cars, and I think it was costing us as much to send the car back at the end as it was to take the car out at the start of the lease. ⁓ but I just remember one time when we had because we rented properties and the landlady phoned us up and said ⁓ just been around to the house and it's it's appalling. I can't believe the mess that it's in and everything else. And she was really angry. I mean really, really angry. And I said to her that I hear everything which you're saying, really apologetic. I want to meet with you. Let's meet at the house. Let's do a walk around and you know let's let's let's let's let's let's make this right. and that was on a Friday. That was on a Friday afternoon and And ⁓ it was a couple of hours' drive away for me, and I got back home sort of late on that Friday evening, and landlady was also duplicated and sort of thought, okay, everything's good. Saturday, I was I was in the office, and there was a couple of us in the office on a Saturday, and we got a phone call from the team which was living in that house to say the house has caught fire. And we couldn't really get much out of them as if to say, you know, is this is this a small.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: fire has the house completely burnt down what's happened and all we could really get out of this was ⁓ the house has caught fire we're all stood outside the fire brigade aren't letting us back in and that that was kind of it and I thought right I'll get back in the car I'll go back down there and I have you ever seen a house which has been on fire before? Have you ever walked inside a house which has Yeah

speaker-0: Sadly I have. Yeah, yeah. It's it's the black, the suit everywhere, isn't it?

speaker-1: It's Yeah. It is. It's it's like it's like on ⁓ Mary Poppins with you know the chimney sweeps and bits and pieces. As you say, everything everything is black. It's it's unbelievable just how much ceilings, walls, carpet, the whole lot. That's what the entire house was like. And I just remember thinking, ⁓ my word, you know, we was only I was only here with the. Talking that it was untidy and actually it wasn't as bad as what she made it out to be when I first spoke to her. And I've sort of thought, ⁓ my god, now I've got to phone her up and tell her I'm terribly sorry, your house has your house is burnt down because it it wasn't livable. It wasn't going to need, you know, demolishing and rebuilding again. But it all needed gutting and ⁓ but ⁓ th those kind of things, I mean I I use that I use that as a as a as a bit of an extreme story and as something that happened at the time. But I think across the sector There is this little bit of a lack of, I'm gonna say a lack of finesse, a lack of professionalism, but also a lack of structure. As I say, you know, I'd come from sort of more sort of corporate environments. It was a bit more policy led, it was a bit more procedure led, which doesn't need to be dry and doesn't need to be boring. You know, you can be ⁓ you know, you can have a fun and engaging culture, but I think it it needs to have a little bit of structure around it. And that's what fundraising lacked. And so I just decided literally overnight to say, actually, I want this to be my name over the door. I think I can do a better job at this. I want to bring something different to the sector in terms of professionalism, in terms of standards. Not just in ⁓ how we fundraise and for the benefit of our clients or for the benefit of supporters, but for the benefit of the team as well actually and for the benefit of people who were working with these agencies. so yeah that's that's that's the inspiration as it were for sort of starting.

speaker-0: Yeah, so so you so you were already there, you were already seeing it, and you could see how you could bring something else to it. You you had you had some vision there basically. ⁓ so when you got started, what what how how did you get started? How did that actually happen? How you know, how do you do you don't just go from like, ⁓ okay, I've I've I've seen something, I want to start a business. How did you actually get started?

speaker-1: I mean I I say that I made a decision literally overnight and I I really, really did. ⁓ and I I I think maybe something had sort of been brewing for ⁓ for a little while. ⁓ I got on extraordinarily well with my old boss extraordinarily well. For six years we worked ⁓ very cohesively together. He's he's a great, great guy. I still keep in touch with him now. ⁓ and he is, he's a phenomenal, phenomenal guy. And ⁓ as an agency, actually a really, really fantastic agency. ⁓ As well. but I think what's important is is that you've got to have alignment there. You know, you've got to have alignment within your leadership team. And I'm sort of have a smile on my face now because I don't know when anyone's going to be watching this podcast, but what we're seeing play out politically at the moment is Kirstarmer's position is very much on the lines. I think Restreetin is likely to be ⁓ putting himself forward either this afternoon or tomorrow for a leadership challenge. And what we sort of see in politics is there just isn't that alignment there amongst leaders within cabinets and and you see, you know, you can't you can't move anything forward then. And that's kind of where I got to within within my last role. ⁓ as I say, you know, worked fantastically well with my last boss, but actually towards the end, we were no longer in alignment. And there's a point whereby even if you don't quite align, you've either just got to say, Okay, you know, the boat's leaving. I can't have one foot in the boat and one foot in on on the jetty still. I've either got to be fully on the boat and fully on this journey, or otherwise I've got to get off the boat in tiny. And I think that sort of feeling had been brewing for a few months. ⁓ and I just got to a point of of saying, Okay, I need to get off the boat and I need to be back in back in myself here. So the decision itself, it felt really natural. But the two sort of nuances within this sector, ⁓ and barriers to entry, as it were, back then, is around scale, and with scale comes money as well. Because charities want you to not recruit 100 donors or 200 donors or whatever, they want you to recruit donors in the thousands. So suddenly you can't do that on your own. You need to have a team behind you, and as as soon as you've got a team of fundraisers behind you, you need an infrastructure behind you as well. And all of that costs money. And ⁓ I sort of worked out I needed around sort of sixty thousand pounds to be able to sort of finance a business just as just as cash flow. And banks don't lend. That's that's my first that's my first lesson. That's my first bit of advice for anyone starting a business. Don't expect but banks to lend. ⁓ especially when you're not buying anything, you know, I'm not buying stock, I'm not buying something that can then be sold if the worst happens. ⁓ it's all just going on wages, it's all just going on As I say, on sort of wages on just sort of running costs. And ⁓ so I needed to finance 60,000 pounds. I had about 10,000 pounds in savings, and I thought, okay, I can remortgage my ⁓ apartment at the time. And I'm sat with ⁓ my mortgage advisor, a a a chap called Martin, and we've got his laptop in front of us, and we're sort of going through and we're filling out this form, and there's a drop-down menu there, because the question is, ⁓ what is the purpose of this? ⁓ o of of the actual loan. and ⁓ you know you have everything on there home improvements, building an extension, buying a car, starting a business and sort of say, ⁓ look, there it is, starting a business. ⁓ you'd think you'd think yeah. But he said, No no no no no Kelvin, you're not gonna put that one there. And somewhere else on this list was buying a boat. And and he said, we'll save that. We'll save it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're buying a boat, you're buying a boat. And I'm sort of really dubious because in my mind I'm sort of thinking, bo boat depreciates, you know. I think my parents had a had a boat at one point. and someone said it's sort of an anacronym for bring out another thousand because they just swallow money. So here's my mortgage advisor saying, This is a sensible route for us to go down. We'll tell the bank you're buying a boat.

speaker-0: They'd rather lend you money for a boat than a business.

speaker-1: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And it he was absolutely right, it is what happened. ⁓ and then I I took out a loan as well. And I think because I'd I'd remortgage the apartment first, and again I sort of had the same drop down menu when it comes to the loan. And I thought, well, I can't put a boat this time, I'll just say I'm buying a car. So I'd yeah, twenty five thousand pounds there for buying a boat, twenty five thousand pounds for buying a car, ten thousand pound in savings, and that's what sort of I suppose ⁓ allowed me the actual capital to be starting.

speaker-0: started. So obviously you you know you've got your you before you can start a business you're gonna need a client. Can you tell us a bit about how you got your first client?

speaker-1: Yeah, I ⁓ my word. It's for feeling, it's for feeling you get at that moment because up until that point everything just sort of feels it's only a dream, you know, it's only a dream. And I can only imagine that I think if you open in a shop or a cafe, again it's only a dream until the day that you sign on the lease or you pick up your keys or you open in the door and it's like, Okay, we're actually doing this now then. ⁓ so for me, up until that point, ⁓ it was always, okay, this is the dream, this is the ambition, I'm working towards it. But as soon as I had the the client turn around and say, Yes, we we we're wanting to work with you here, it was like, ⁓ okay, this is this is great. This isn't this isn't a dream anymore. This isn't an ambition. This is real. This is actually happening now. so so which which in itself is a fantastic feeling, but it's also a big confidence boost because coming into the sector, you s you begin to sort of doubt a little bit to say, well, why would any charity work with a brand new agency as opposed to an established agency that's already out there? ⁓ and especially I think charities nowadays because they're looking for so much more than what they were back then. ⁓ back then I think it was as simple as, you know, if you could get the numbers, if you could get the quality fairly good, Whereas now, you know, there's so much more compliance and I think, you know, you've got to have that sort of that structure and that infrastructure behind you. ⁓ so yeah, so to ha to have a client it was a fantastic feeling. It really gave that sort of confidence boost of, yeah, you know, someone's got faith in me. And it was a nice ⁓ it was a nice sort of parallel really because I I didn't want to go at a hundred miles an hour. I wasn't able to, you know, there's a lot of restrictions. This is a brand new startup. ⁓ but I think the the charity that we started with, Catch Protection, who we still work with today, they hadn't done face-to-face fundraising before. And I think ⁓ I'm making an assumption here, but from what I understand, a lot of the trustees at the time were quite adverse to face-to-face fundraising, or perhaps adverse isn't the right word, but maybe a little bit sort of sceptical, you know, they'd they'd been used to other forms of fundraising which was a lot more palatable, let's say, to be so bold and to be so brave as to be knocking on doors or to be out there at private site venues asking the members of the public to give a regular donation was like, ⁓ this is very commercial. We've never done something like this before. We have Betty selling cakes, thank you very much. We don't have this more commercial style of fundraising. ⁓ So I I think for them it was a nice it was a nice fit, you know, they weren't going in working with this sort of bigger beast who was going to suddenly sort of go out there and potentially tarnish a reputation 'cause I think that's always the risk that fundraisers have every single time that we send a fundraiser out into the field, that carries a risk with it as well. So

speaker-0: Yeah. That's fantastic. So ⁓ this so this first client that you got, you've got them, you've got your money, you've you've got it set up. I I can't ⁓ all smooth sailing from there, Calvin?

speaker-1: ⁓ it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster. ⁓ my word. I mean, I say, you know, didn't didn't want to be this big a bit and we didn't, you know. But ⁓ as I said earlier on, needed a little bit of scalability. And because I'd worked for an established agency, we had fundraisers, we had fundraising teams, so straight away I'm wanting to bring on board a team of fundraisers as well. So I have this team of fundraisers. I really want to look after them. So I'm paying them well, ⁓ with certain benefits and all everything I I sort of ⁓ aspire for professional fundraiser to be, and I'm doing that right from day one. But we started off doing door to door and we were doing that, as I say, on behalf of Cats Protection, and you really just couldn't get around enough doors to find enough cat lovers for a percentage of those cat lovers to be making a donation. So inevitably the money was just rushing out the door in terms of all of these salaries for fundraisers. And sixty thousand pounds, which you know, I borrowed suddenly it feels

speaker-0: Like a lot of money when you get it at first, don't you? Doesn't it?

speaker-1: But if this is the thing, if if someone was to give you £60,000 a day, I mean you'd you'd be like, ⁓ my well, I can go on holiday, I can buy a new car, I can buy a buy a boat, absolutely. You realise it doesn't go that that far at all. And yeah, it it it went, it went so so quickly. And I just got to that stage of thinking, ⁓ my word, what what have I what have I done here? You know, I've now put myself in a really, really

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: vulnerable, difficult position. ⁓ to the point where I didn't know how to put ⁓ petrol in the car or or or or anything, you know, it was really, really, really tight or thinking how am I going to be paying off my actual mortgage, you know, on on a on a monthly basis. ⁓ so it was it was really, really tight. So made the decision to sort of scale back actually and almost start again, but now I'm starting again from scratch. ⁓ So ⁓ which of course was possible because we're here and we're a very different organisation now. ⁓ and I think it was a lesson of trying not trying to run before you can walk. and yeah, it's a massive, massive, massive lesson there. But I I I remember at a time, for whatever reason, Tuesdays were always a really bad day. Tuesdays were always just I don't know, things just always went wrong on a Tuesday. And when when you're hanging on by a thread, when things go wrong It's kind of is Visper Day when it's it's all over. ⁓ and maybe for five or six weeks I just dreaded Tuesdays and wouldn't sleep on a Monday night and all day on Tuesday just think what's going on today, what's going on today? And then you got to a stage of hmm, it's got to be end of Tuesday, nothing's nothing's gone wrong today. This has been a this has been a good day's has been a good day, what's happened? And then suddenly it felt like okay, we turned a corner and yeah, things are getting better, things are getting So someone said to me ⁓ back in back in the earlier years, I think this was maybe two or three years after I started and someone says, ⁓ there's a saying it's inch by inch is a cinch, yard by yard is very hard and you know, I'd sort of gone yard by yard or tried to go yard by yard. So

speaker-0: What ⁓ qualities or what do you think you need as a if if someone's thinking of starting a business themselves, if they're thinking of getting into this entrepreneurial role, what do you think they really need to to be able to to be able to go the distance really?

speaker-1: ⁓ I think I think fight and perseverance, I think that's one of my sort of greatest greatest attributes. I don't I don't give up. I don't give up whatever whatever it is. and it's it's an adventure in problem solving, it really is, when you're starting a business. So even even when the business is established, you know, it's ⁓ there's always problems to be to be trying to solve. And I think especially in especially in fundraising and ⁓ A lot of the time we're outside, so the weather has an impact. Okay, we're not farmers, we're not wine producers or anybody like that. So, you know, the weather isn't quite as critical for us as what it is for them. But you know, it's just an example amongst many others that I could provide of socio sort of economic weather conditions, whatever the case is, which is outside of your control. And It is it is so so tough. It is so so tough and so so draining at times and you've just gotta kind of hunker down. You've gotta have that fight in you. You really have. And if you haven't got that fight, then you're not gonna be able to go the distance. ⁓ so I think I think that's huge. I think I think don't try to do everything overnight, you know. It's it's a journey. It really, really is a journey. And I think when people start it's because they have this ambition and they think, ⁓ yeah, this is this is what I want it to be. And you can g you can have that dream, you know, you can get swept along with that, and actually recognise sometimes you have to go at a slower pace to get there, but it's a more sensible it's a more sensible route.

speaker-0: And obviously TPF has come a long way from from from that from that day. And I guess there were more challenges along along the way as well. It wasn't just in in the early days.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean ⁓ the biggest challenge of course is gonna be COVID. ⁓ it's gonna be COVID. and unlike I I'm gonna say that we we were in the same position as hairdressers because that was sort of the one you know, hospitality I think got a lot of attention during COVID and hospitality were able to turn or able to sort of pivot towards takeaways if they couldn't do the in-house service and they were able as soon as lockdown started to be lifted to be able to go outside in the beer gardens and bits and pieces like that, or to operate out outside, I should say. and there was of course support for the hospitality sector. Because these are big, big sectors, of course, that employ millions of people, the charity sector didn't have the same ⁓ the same, let's say, sort of publicity or awareness around it and charities lost a a significant amount of money. I mean it was a really, really difficult time for for charities there. And then you've got this sort of smaller segment within the sector of face to face fundraising and we we couldn't do anything. You know, we couldn't pivot to takeaways. That's what I say, you know, we were very similar to hairdressers in as much that you couldn't do anything. You could at least be a black market hairdresser. You couldn't be a black market fundraiser going out there. So yeah, so COVID COVID was ⁓ incredibly difficult. And I think the years that happened after that because you sort of went from COVID into what they termed as I can't remember the name of it now, but it was ⁓ almost like a bit of a recruitment crisis. You know, people were they'd reevaluated what it was that they wanted in life. They would maybe sort of move them from one company to another or whatever the case is, and then we went into cost of living, and it was just one thing after another after another. So yeah, tough, tough, tough times.

speaker-0: So who who's been your support how who's who supports you, Calvin, through this?

speaker-1: ⁓ I think it's a combination of people at different stages of the journey. Yeah. So when I when I started, some my parents were retired and ⁓ I should say that my mum was was a big support, but at the same time my mum liked just to just to put her nose in really and interfere as a lot of mums a lot of mums do, and sometimes you just keep out of it, keep out of it. ⁓ but I think certainly when I'd scaled things back and I I was doing everything, you know, from booking the venues, going out there, fundraising, welcome calling my own donors. you know, part of the welcome call is about compliance monitoring. So I'd trust that I am compliant out there in the field. And I was doing my own sort of welcome call. My mum actually then sort of said, ⁓ look, you know, you can't be doing all of this. I'll do the welcome calls for you. And she did she did some other bits. and she found that sickening. Actually, she always said to me, because she gets off the phone with some donors. Clearly, as I say, I wasn't a great fundraiser. But I'm a very nice fundraiser. Very nice fundraiser. And I spent a lot of time with donors, a lot of time, you know, consolidating the sign up. And if someone wanted to talk, I'm happy. You can see I can talk. ⁓ and I was very happy to be sort of spending the time and investing the time with them. My mum would get off the phone and said, ⁓ I just spoke to this person who you saw at whatever garden sensor it was. ⁓ it's sickening, you know, they The way they just talked about you and how nice you were and this, that and the other. Maybe, maybe. But ⁓ no, it was never quite my mum my mum's sort of way. ⁓ but yeah, my my parents were both it a huge support. And then ⁓ maybe a couple of years after I started the business I started ⁓ I started dating who is now my wife, Katie. And ⁓ of course, you know, you have the start of a relationship, so you want to spend

speaker-0: You think Mum would be proud?

speaker-1: As much time together as possible. You do then. I've been with her now for twelve years, so it's the obvious thing now you want to spend time apart. But at the time, you know, you want to spend all of the time together. And she was working full time Monday to Friday. and and of course, you know, the business is is taken over as well Monday to Friday. But ⁓ I'm out at exhibitions on Sundays because I'm seeing fundraiser so we've got working here at different shows, different events up and down the country, and exhibition stands need dismantling. ⁓ so that was our kind of dating, really. For a good for a good year, maybe even a couple of years, we'd be sort of getting in the van, going out, disassembling, you know, these sort of exhibitions, seeing the fundraisers there, spending spending the time with with ⁓ with ⁓ then. So yeah, family I think it's it's the same with anything, you know. I think when when you for anybody who's starting a business, family is always their their biggest support and sometimes you just need them on the sideline championing you. Saying look, you you you have this, you can do this, you can work through all of these problems and everything else. ⁓ but of course, as as as the business has ⁓ has grown and has developed, you then want someone in these sort of roles who can actually do the job properly. you know, there's a degree to which yes, you can rely upon ⁓ family and and friends to help and support, but then you get to a point where like I need somebody professional in IT whose bag it is to do IT, somebody, you know, the same in finance and whatever the case is. ⁓ so I think the support now is just for team around us 'cause it is it is a great team. It's a really, really strong team and ⁓ we've got quite a few people in the business now who've been here for a very, very long period of time.

speaker-0: And so yeah, that you see that as part of your part of your role really, finding people that that work well together and work with you and

speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred a hundred percent, a hundred percent. you see it on Instagram all the time. why I do is clearly, you know, what I'm looking at and it keeps on popping up in algorithms all the time and it says, you know, what the CEO's role is. And you don't really do very much, if I'm being perfectly honest with you. Because you just surround yourself with people who can do the job role better than what I can it. You know, it's a simple it's as simple as that.

speaker-0: Mm.

speaker-1: Because that's what makes a business sustainable and is what makes a business scalable a as well. ⁓ so you know, that's that's what I've done is surrounded myself with people who can do very or far, far better than what I ever could. Yeah.

speaker-0: Well, those early days certainly had their challenges, didn't they? And they didn't stop. But w what's next? We're we're we're going farther and forward.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think the fut the future's an interesting one for us. So a few weeks ago, I mean you you'll know this anyway, because ⁓ we was up ⁓ we were up at Redcoats. for those watching the podcast, Redcoats is this sort of very nice, idyllic sort of farmhouse farmhouse setting. and we launched our new three year strategy. And when we talk about strategy, we sort of put it in the context of a destination. So we've just got to Switzerland, a sort of And a an analogy in a way of sort of Switzerland, this highest peak within within Europe, because our previous strategy was strong and unbreakable force to be reckoned with. ⁓ we've now saying, okay, we've done that. We're going on now for the next three years and ⁓ our new vision is Singapore. and I think when people think about Singapore, you know, you think about it sort of they've got the environmental credentials, so there's that sort of link in there to sustainability, very sort of talent magnets, so there's that link in there to ⁓ the high capability that we want to see within the team. You think of them as a real sort of global player. So there's that part around the stability of us as an organisation. ⁓ you think of Singapore as this sort of ⁓ tech and innovation, I think is one of the very first things that comes to mind. So it's how do we be at the forefront of face to face fundraising. So actually when there's a change in the sector, charities have heard it from us. ⁓ so it's that analogy of Singapore, that's that's where we're going. ⁓ it's being the trusted voice within fundraising. ⁓ and ⁓ you know, I think I think we we do we do a great job out there. We bring something that's different to the sector. ⁓ I think we we fill we fill a gap and ⁓ for us it's all about quality. It really, really is. It's all about quality and it's about doing doing the right thing. That's for our clients, for our supporters, for our team as well. And there's many other agencies out there. If if a charity wants quality, ⁓ sorry, if a charity wants volume, then there's dozen other agencies out there who can provide that. But we will not compromise the quality of our fundraising or the quality of the donors that we recruit in exchange for volume. ⁓ and and we stick very, very firm to that. That's what professional fundraiser is all about. It's all about the quality in the FX market.

speaker-0: Thank you so much for telling us about how it all came to be. It's an absolutely fascinating story and I'm sure you have many more stories and hopefully we'll be hearing more of them in the future. And ⁓ yeah, thank you so much for joining me today, Cal

speaker-1: Well thank you very much for ⁓ indulging me as well to be carefully honest.

speaker-0: It's been wonderful, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the first episode of the TPF podcast. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a colleague or on LinkedIn or let your fundraising friends know about us. We're back here once a month with fundraising insights, so be sure to subscribe to our channels so you're notified whenever we have new episodes out. We're streaming on Spotify and Apple Podcasts with video versions available on YouTube. You can also find us on Instagram via at Profundrauk for more on all things TPF. We'll see you back here very soon. No, no, no.