speaker-0: How do you really get a grasp on clarity?

speaker-1: I think you get a grasp on clarity. One, starting with your design. Like what is it that we are addressing? Yeah, you know, people say, ⁓ I want a new kitchen. Okay, what's wrong with the kitchen you have? I need to know what I'm fixing so that I can actually fix a problem. I can't fix an issue I don't know about. If I'm if I'm coming in looking at it from, you know, a contractor's perspective or something like that, if I don't know what your problem is, I'm shooting in the dark as to what I'm actually fixing.

speaker-0: Welcome to Return on Design, the podcast where beauty meets strategy and interiors become assets that perform. I'm your host, Rachel Niederhofer, designer, investor, and builder of high-impact spaces that deliver real results. Alongside my husband, I run both a design firm and a real estate investment company, where I live at the intersection of creativity and ROI every day. Each week, I'll be unpacking what most people overlook. How strategic design decisions can grow your investment, elevate your lifestyle, and unlock the full potential of your property. You'll get real tools, proven strategies, and unfiltered conversations with industry experts who are doing it right. So if you're ready to invest with purpose and leverage design as a powerful tool, this podcast is from you. Most people assume renovation chaos is just part of the process that, you know, overrunning your budget, crazy timelines, constant stress, it's just part of what happens when you're going through a project.

speaker-1: And honestly, a lot of people have really experienced renovation and things like in this manner. Either they've done it themselves or they've watched somebody and by the end of it they all want to say the same thing of I'm not doing this again.

speaker-0: Interestingly enough, it's usually not about the construction process itself. It's about poor planning, you know, not a defined scope, no clarity. And these are the things that tend to spiral into chaos and confusion. Welcome back to the show. Today I want to focus on this whole concept of renovation chaos. What does it look like? What should it look like? And how to avoid. this whole chaotic experience, but I specifically want to look at it through the lens of my incredible husband, Justin, who really oversees the operation and manages the execution. So I want to give our listeners a little different perspective of how to actually execute a design and more specifically a renovation. So let's dive in. So Justin, enlighten our listeners. Tell me. What is it about this whole chaotic concept that, you know, gets such a bad rap when it comes to renovation?

speaker-1: I think one of the biggest things that kind of lends and creates into the chaos of all of this is lack of clarity. You know, you start demoing before you really have a plan of what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. What's being addressed versus how it's going to be addressed, I guess, you know. As my grandfather always told me growing up when working on different projects and things like that, proper prior planning prevents pissed poor performance. Meaning if you don't Plan your work accordingly, it's gonna take longer. It's gonna be more stressful and frustrating. Yeah.

speaker-0: That's good. Say that one more time for our listeners.

speaker-1: Proper prior planning prevents pissed poor performance.

speaker-0: Very good. I like that you bring this up about clarity because we talk about this a lot in our process of how we really approach projects, how I approach design. But what would you say is like step one for somebody who is going through a renovation, whether they're an investor, you know, even a general contractor, like how do you really get a grasp on clarity?

speaker-1: Yeah. I think you get a grasp on clarity. One, starting with your design. Like what is it that we are addressing? Yeah, you know, people say, ⁓ I want a new kitchen. Okay, what's wrong with the kitchen you have? I need to know what I'm fixing so that I can actually fix a problem. I can't fix an issue I don't know about. If I'm if I'm coming in looking at it from, you know, a contractor's perspective or something like that, if I don't know what your problem is, I'm shooting in the dark as to what I'm actually fixing. Yeah.

speaker-0: Love that you highlight that because that's something I say a lot is I solve problems through the application of interior design. So for the listener, you know, to your point, what is the actual problem that we're providing a solution for? That's step one to identifying clarity. Yeah. If we don't understand the why behind it, we can't really effectively reach a goal. Right. Yeah. Let's talk about like actual oversight. Like let's say you've established the clarity and you've refined really the goal or the design. And now you're going into well let's let's not even get into execution yet. Let's talk about like what's the next step in your process as overseeing the operation to execute on the design. Like now that you kind of have the charging orders of what we're going to do, what would you do next?

speaker-1: Well, now that I have the information of what we're gonna do, now I can actually have conversations with my crews, my tradespeople that I'm gonna have actually performing a lot of this work. And I can say and we can go through step by step of this is these are the things that we wanna do. These are you know, maybe even have a good idea of what most of the material is gonna be so that they understand what they're going to be doing and can actually give me the best pricing and the most accurate pricing of what it's going to cost me to get this done.

speaker-0: So, how do you determine sort of the order of execution? Like, let's say you've accomplished those things and now you're actually gonna start the project. Like, how are you, what's your advice, or how do you strategically go through who's gonna show up first? How is this all actually gonna come into fruition? Through the perspective of like avoiding this chaos. What people assume is going to happen.

speaker-1: Yeah. Sometimes that's very project specific. If if we are doing one of our investment properties where I have a completely blank slate open home, you know, let's get my demo done and I can I can go through and demo out everything I want and then we can start rebuilding back step by step, you know, get my drywall, get my texture, then I can do my painting and my flooring and cabinetries. in in that order. But if if I'm remodeling in a home where you know the homeowner's still there, that's that gets a little more tricky. And I generally try to look at that from how do I minimize impacts on them and make things as smooth as possible in stages that I don't have the entire home blown out and blown open and it's not even livable. Yeah. So I prefer being able to just go through and do it all at once because from from a timeline and management aspect, it's a whole lot easier when I can do everything at once. You know, like I can go through and do all of my demo. I can go through and do all of my drywall and then all of the paint notes versus in stages. Yeah.

speaker-0: Which I'm glad you brought that up because for our listeners, it's important to know what is the scenario and who are you serving. Because in that situation where you have it's a design project and we have somebody living in the home, we're serving them. They are the end client that we're trying to accommodate and we are working for. So that means all of the crews. it might be out of rhythm for their preference and in turn they might be like, This feels chaotic. However, it's not always the case. Tell us why.

speaker-1: No, it's not. It's not chaotic because you still use a lot of the same processes and the same steps. It's just that I'm I have to break it down into smaller portions. And the why it feels chaotic to them is that they prefer again to do it all at once.

speaker-0: Yeah, I wanna do it my way.

speaker-1: You know.

speaker-0: The way that makes sense. But yeah, to the client, it's actually a totally different experience.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. It is because they're not having to see everything at once and you know, again, they're still in the home. Yeah. Right. And I'm trying to minimize impacts on them because that's who my they're they are my clients.

speaker-0: Yeah. Right. So let's talk a little bit about like what happens when you experience a delay. Like we've had we've had situations happen real time where we have to fire somebody who's working on the job. Or we have to yeah, fire them. Let's just say that. So how do you navigate that when you're actually real time executing a project? And tell our listeners, you know, yeah, how you do it. How you do it and how how they can glean from you in that process. Instead of panicking, what do you do?

speaker-1: Well, step one, you cannot panic. There are always things in in the construction or in the project implementation that come up. There's always something that can create a delay. Unfortunately, this is one that just creates a little bit or can potentially cause a little bit bigger delay. One thing I like to be able to do is have multiple options of tradespeople. You know, we've we've worked around this industry for many, many years. And I know a lot of people who work for each trade. But I also have friendships and relationships that if this guy's not cutting it, not performing up to par, I have I have somebody in my back pocket that I can go back to and talk to. And even if it's not them, who do you know that, you know, you and I have a relationship, I can trust you, who can you recommend and to help me out here? So I try to minimize a lot of that delay if I can by having Having options and not starting from s ground zero every time.

speaker-0: So how go a little deeper on like how do you actually maintain control over something that you seemingly can feel like gets out of control? If somebody were to like walk out in the middle of a job, like walk people through, don't just not panic, but like how do you maintain control and communication that you're in control still?

speaker-1: Well, I think that part of that is is just because yes, you had a change here. There's always the change. There's always that, you know, something can come up. But the way that you maintain that control is there's still other parts of the project that are going on. Pivot. So you can pivot. My drywall guy didn't show up here to fix this. Well, you know, my my texture guy is over here. He can work over here in this other area. Okay, until I get this fixed and taken care of for him. So I can shift him into another area a little bit and maybe have him work in a slightly different path. Or I can get I can allow the next guy to be coming in and prepping and starting some things, even though not everything is one hundred percent ready to go. Yeah. You know, there are still aspects to the project that can continue on.

speaker-0: So that's a good way to maintain time control too.

speaker-1: Just just because this one thing has to shift doesn't mean everything in the project gets shut down or has to now wait.

speaker-0: Yeah, which is really good advice to for our fellow real estate investors. This is exactly why, like, you don't want to delegate everything beyond your ability to control your own project timeline. Because yes, it's inevitable. Things are gonna come up, you know, and you're gonna have to pivot. You've gotta be really good at pivoting and making sure you're still. moving in the trajectory of a completion as you execute versus just shutting down the whole project and waiting. Yeah.

speaker-1: Costing time, money, and effort.

speaker-0: So how how would you say that influences stress on the project? Maybe not even that specifically, like somebody quitting, but just pivoting, like pivoting quickly, how does that influence stress? And how do we protect our clients from that level of stress?

speaker-1: You know, for me, when when some of those changes happen, it does cause a level of stress because now I've got to pivot a little bit more than I was planning to, or in an area that I wasn't planning to. But by knowing what's going on and by by being able to shift over into another area, you you still have progress making moving forward, which progress always reduces the stress. When people see the progress, it naturally just brings your your own stress level down. Yeah. But seeing we're still we're still moving. Everything's okay here. You know? Yes, I gotta pivot a little bit, but okay, but we're we're moving forward. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not you're not letting it shut you down, like we just said.

speaker-0: The next thing I really am curious to hear your thoughts about is, you know, sort of the segue off of that pivot notion, right? So in instead of being reactive, like what is the solution for maintaining that control, keeping your project moving, and not allowing it to shift into the chaotic?

speaker-1: I think it goes back to your planning. Being able to plan each step, how we're gonna go what we're moving through and how we're going. And even thinking through in some aspects, like if something were to come up, how can I move around? Like I I generally try to have a plan in place in my at least in my mind of if I were to find this while we're doing, you know, we're

speaker-0: Give an example, like to find what?

speaker-1: Okay, we're we're tearing, we're we're re redoing a bathroom. Okay. If I find that, ⁓ there was some water damage back here behind the wall, I already kind of have some material set aside that we can start to rework that and we can take care of it. And it's not, ⁓ wait, everybody stop. How am I gonna fix this? I've already I've already kind of thought about that. Like if we have to, okay, I kind of have stuff on the side ready to go. If if I don't find that, great. We can just continue as as planned forward. So and I think I learned a lot of that through my corporate career of always having to be ready for that worst unknown that worst case scenario. Yeah. You know.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. So how do you navigate dealing with me in terms of when I come to you and I'm like, this is kind of the design, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I want to do. And maybe it's still theory and I haven't fully solidified that, like, how are you how do you gauge that? So if if there are people who are working together and defined roles in their, you know? Business or even just a couple, like going through the process of this, like what would you suggest, or how do you actually do it?

speaker-1: I think that's where the communication comes in and a lot of play of, you know, when you bring me an idea of I think I want to do this, okay, I kind of have to understand what it is you're wanting and and how it goes how you see it, so that I can then picture and figure out how it's got to work. Because how it gets implemented affects how it's gonna look in the end too. So I've got to understand what where we're trying to go so that I can then figure out what steps have to be put in place in order to get that accomplished. But I have to ask you a lot of questions in order to do that. You know, I have to un I have to kind of dig into you of what are you thinking? What's what's in that pretty little head of yours and where where are you taking this?

speaker-0: So would you suggest that for our listeners? Like maybe they need to ask more thought provoking questions that are gonna position them to be to to have scenario.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, you've you've got to you've got to ask kind of the deeper questions of what and why ⁓ and get that understanding of what is to be done. And it goes back to why we lead into chaos. If I'm just demoing to demo and I don't know what I'm demoing and why and how I'm gonna fix it, I'm only causing more chaos. If if you told me, ⁓ I wanna build a wall, okay, well how How long, how wide, how you know, all the different things. I don't know what I'm trying to fix. And I don't know what I'm trying to build so that I can't plan it properly to get done. And then it takes longer and creates more frustration.

speaker-0: So whenever you're giving, you know, the directive to whoever's gonna be executing on this aspect of the design, how much are you telling them? And what does that communication look like to again to your point, make sure they understand the why or you know, what does that look like?

speaker-1: Sometimes it's not always about expl at least for working with some of our tradespeople, it's not always about them understanding the why. It's about knowing this is this is where it's going. This is what I need. And they know how to execute those things. I don't even always have to tell them how to execute that because, you know, I don't I don't tell my tile guy how to lay his tile. He knows how to lay it. I just have to explain to him I want These tiles, I want it this and I want it kind of in this way because that's the design aspect that you've given me and that you've shown me and that we've presented to our clients. Okay, we're gonna get done. I don't tell you how much mortar you

speaker-0: Do you think that that communication flow is helping mitigate chaos or is it does it have a influence at all of like you controlling what's actually happening and during execution?

speaker-1: I think that the communication, yes, does help to mitigate chaos. And sometimes they do need to understand the whys, like in in a case in point with a remodel that we were doing and the homeowner was still there. We're gonna do this section of the house first and I'm gonna get it to completion. And then we will move into this next set and we will do this to completion. And by doing that, we're minimizing a lot of the chaos of everything in the house being in disarray. Some of the guys that we had working, they didn't necessarily like that because it's not the process that they wanted to do. But in the in that sense and scenario, I had to tell them like this is we're doing it this way because I am working for these people. You are working for me. So this is the way you're going to work through the house.

speaker-0: So I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, if if if there's somebody listening that maybe they're wanting to take on more ownership in their own properties, like what would you tell them around establishing that sort of hierarchy of this is how we're going to get things done? And really taking the lead in ownership. Because you're right, there's a lot of tradespeople who want to do it their way. And you know, you have to build that right relationship, identifying maybe they're not the right people or, you know, what's your advice?

speaker-1: In many aspects, it's just setting up that that boundary early on of this is what we're doing. Like this is what I want. This is how I need to have it done. But there are certain application points where it is, I I'm not telling you how to do your job. Right. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what I need and I'm allowing you to do your job. Right. That I've hired you for. But there are aspects to this that no, you will you do have to do it this way. me. If if you give me a design for a backsplash and you tell me, hey, I want this in a herringbone pattern, okay, to my taught guy, you're gonna do this in a herringbone. That's not a brick, it's not a brick pattern. It may be easier for you, it may be quicker. Sorry, no, you're doing a herringbone.

speaker-0: Right. That's good. Yeah. I think especially as a female, I've talked touched on this before, but it's it's a male dominated space and a woman there is a different barrier for a woman gaining control of that project and making sure the direction being flown down into the full execution. Like you've got to have the right people. So whether you're working for a general contractor or you're working with rather a general contractor or you're serving out your own trades, you still have to lead from that strong initiative. It's a collaborative effort, but there's still only one person really in charge. And yeah. And we've seen that with fellow investors, you know, like we've talked about this before. Relinquishing too much control to your GC.

speaker-1: And they need to respect that.

speaker-0: Can compromise your profit margin. Yes. Tell us

speaker-1: That's why. If your trades have control over your budget and everything else, they're gonna do it the way they want and it's gonna it winds up costing you more money 'cause they show up when they want, they do what they want, and they leave when they want. And they wanna get paid when they want. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yes, that is the truth. So how do you navigate that?

speaker-1: I've made the mistakes on it before and and I still continue to evolve with the way that I work. But, you know, starting out and setting the clear boundaries of this is how we're going to work through it. This is this is what we're going to do. Okay. You want to be paid on a weekly basis? Okay, I can work with that, but you're going to submit an invoice to me here for what you've done. And I'm going to be able to look at it and go through it and verify the work before I pay you. Yeah. And I will pay you out on this date.

speaker-0: So having those systems depending

speaker-1: Having the systems defined and and the systems they evolve over time. You know, not everybody gets it right up front on that. It's it's a system that's evolved and I mean, my systems are still evolving every day.

speaker-0: That's really good. You know, developing those systems and sticking to the structure of how you run your business is also going to minimize the chaos, keep things orderly and a timely fashion, and ultimately keeping you in control of the execution of your own project. Okay. I have what I have one final question for you. So what would you tell somebody about renovating or if they're gonna start a renovation? And what would you point them to in terms of process on how to make sure, you know, they're going through the steps to minimize the case?

speaker-1: One, if you're planning on doing that, you can do this. Like you can manage your own projects if you want. You can hire out a GC if you want to do that for you as well. Not everybody has the time to manage that project in the most intimate aspects of it, but you all but you do have the time to manage it from the high-level overview because it's your project. So if if you can't dedicate time to manage it from at least that, then I wouldn't do it. But You know, going through and it's have a clear and defined goal. And you need to think through the process steps of like how does how is this going to get put together? You know, how what is demo gonna look like? What are we gonna demo? What are we gonna build back? And and understanding some of your timelines to get things done so that you can plan your your business accordingly. Like if it's gonna if I'm building new cabinets for a kitchen and it's gonna take me Eight weeks to get the new cabinets. I don't need to demo out my current kitchen and then order my new cabinets. Right. Because then my project's gonna sit there for eight weeks on use at a minimum of eight weeks unusable. I can be looking at other aspects of things that are gonna come into play and I can wait and ⁓ okay, my cabinet should be done and ready to install in ten days. Now we can take all this out, remove it, minimize that chaos surrounding that new installation. So look at look at some of your timelines, understanding what it how long it's gonna take to do things, and you can plan your business accordingly so that the chaos surrounding all of it is minimized.

speaker-0: Yeah. And you know, just that planning. The more you plan, it's the same principle around design, right? Like there's a lot of planning before you ever start executing and making sure you have a solidified plan, I think, is the biggest takeaway. Yeah.

speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of people get just so get into the chaos is without without planning and without clarity of the plan.

speaker-0: And without defined structure of who's in charge. Too many cooks in the kitchen is never a good thing. One more thing I do want to add while we wrap it up is that chaos, the definition of chaos can be very ⁓ or I shouldn't say the definition, interpretation of chaos can be very subjective because if you've never gone through a building project, renovation, construction, that's like totally brand new and unfamiliar, it's probably going to feel chaotic even if it's actually being executed with excellence. And that's just because there's a lot of moving parts. You know, when you're unfamiliar with with the process in general, it it can feel overwhelming. But the more you get around it, the more you realize, ⁓ this is actually not chaotic at all. We're the it there's just a lot of components and we're right on track exactly where we need to be. I like to point that out because we've had clients where we have to reassure them like we're actually right on track and it's just a matter of you not fully understanding how this goes. Yeah.

speaker-1: You've never been to this process and you know you're seeing it for the first time and you're like, why is why are why does it feel like we're stopped right now? Well, actually there's there's small details that are being worked in that aren't as noticeable until all of a sudden, ⁓ my gosh, all my floor's laid.

speaker-0: Yes, it kind of comes in waves. And for for context around that, the project that typically feels the smoothest is truly the one that has had the most planning, preparation, and thoughtfulness before execution ever begins. Yeah. If this has encouraged you to think differently about renovating or maybe giving you that little confidence boost of realizing, you know what, I can actually step into this myself as well. We encourage you to do so. Like make sure you're, you know, taking the steps and progressing in your own ventures of accomplishing big projects like you want. And one resource we do have is our return on design blueprint. It actually helps you get through that clarification process and all of the planning stages and the development part before you even start your execution. So if you haven't checked that out. Make sure you do it, it is found on our website at audaciousdesigns.design under the return on design blueprint. And of course, make sure you're following us on our socials for more valuable insight around design, investing, and execution of all of the above. You can get us at real return on design and make sure you subscribe to our YouTube where we're releasing all. of the full video footage of our podcast. So thanks so much for joining us. We hope that it was insightful and encouraging.

speaker-1: Appreciate it guys and we'll see you next time.

speaker-0: Bye.