speaker-0: So I think that a lot of people naturally assume that a bigger kitchen is a better kitchen. And what's your take on that?

speaker-1: tend to agree. There are assumptions that bigger is always better, but it's really not the case. And when it comes to the kitchen specifically, there is a design principle around the working triangle of the kitchen. And what that really is, is there's three primary workstations in the kitchen. And you have to be able to access these fluidly, meaning they need to be relatively close together. That's the refrigerator or food storage area, right? Where we're going to be getting out food to prep, the sink, and the oven. All of this has to do with actually working, right? The function of the kitchen. Welcome to Return on Design, the podcast where beauty meets strategy and interiors become assets that perform. I'm your host, Rachel Niegerhofer, designer, investor, and builder of high-impact spaces that deliver real results. Alongside my husband, I run both a design firm and a real estate investment company, where I live at the intersection of creativity and ROI every day. Each week, I'll be unpacking what most people overlook: how strategic design decisions can grow your investment, elevate your lifestyle, and unlock the full potential of your property. You'll get real tools, proven strategies, and unfiltered conversations with industry experts who are doing it right. So if you're ready to invest with purpose and leverage design as a powerful tool, This podcast is for you. One of the most important spaces in the entire home is the kitchen. Statistically, the average person spends about 400 hours a year in the kitchen alone. This is genuinely where life happens, conversations take place, homework is done. And interestingly enough, the emotional impact of the kitchen alone can actually influence how someone feels about the entire property.

speaker-0: Yeah. And as a real estate investor, this is something that we need to take note of and pay attention to because this is definitely a area where we can move the needle on our projects.

speaker-1: So on today's episode, we are going to be diving into how to actually make your kitchen feel bigger, become more functional without actually modifying the square foot footage of it at all. So welcome back to the show. We are excited to share with you today.

speaker-0: So I think that a lot of people naturally assume that a bigger kitchen is a better kitchen. And what's your take on that?

speaker-1: tend to agree. There are assumptions that bigger is always better, but it's really not the case. And when it comes to the kitchen specifically, there is a design principle around the working triangle of the kitchen. And what that really is, is there's three primary workstations in the kitchen. And you have to be able to access these fluidly, meaning they need to be relatively close together. That's the refrigerator or food storage area, right? Where you're going to be getting out food to prep, the sink and the oven. All of this has to do with actually working, right? The function of the kitchen. And you want them to be close enough that you're limiting, you know, having to run from one end of the kitchen to the other, but not so close that you're cramped and you don't have real designated space for each working component. In bigger kitchens. Sometimes this working triangle is too far apart or even ignored in some aspects. So one example of mitigating that in a larger space specifically would be having more than one sink station.

speaker-0: Kind of like making the butler's nook or a kind of a prep air prep kitchen area type off to the side where we can have drinks and things like that, but then still not in the way of necessarily all the working aspects.

speaker-1: And this is really trending right now in design. If you're if you pay attention to kitchen design today, maybe you might see that on socials or yeah, pretty much on socials. You'll see where people are almost having a forward facing kitchen that might be more for entertaining. You might have, you know, your primary range and the island with a little bit of storage, and then a full walk in butler's pantry slash prep station. That's often hidden. So they might have another sink back there. They might have another oven, like a wall oven unit, even ⁓ a microwave. And so in a situation like that, yeah, you need to diagnose each space as its own independent working triangle. So you should still follow the format and the main kitchen of what's your working triangle? How are you going to actually function in here from a cook standpoint? And then the same would be true in like a butler's nook or, you know, a fully extended galley prep station.

speaker-0: So one of the things you're really evaluating every time that we look at one of these kitchens and and our investments and for clients and things is that flow. That's something you constantly talk about is the flow.

speaker-1: And the flow is going to help set the stage for actual livability. And that's what really moves the needle for people. You know, I always say the aesthetics and the beauty come at the end. If you don't address the function, the flow and the feel, then you're you're going to compromise everything that comes after that.

speaker-0: Okay, so with that, ⁓ you know, what are what are some of the mistakes I guess that you see that people are making or that have been made in kitchens that cause that flow to be off? You know, is it ⁓ an island that's too large or just poor placement?

speaker-1: Yeah, I would say it's a multitude of things. So where I tend to see the most awkward positioning is when you have strange angles or like the kitchen seems like it's crammed into a little circle, like a little corner where maybe the sink might be on, you know, in what would have been a 90-degree corner in in the room. And now they've made it almost U-shaped and the island. is also a little offset, maybe, and ⁓ it can just create really awkward flows and angles. I particularly do not like architecture that has a lot of strange angles. And I think there was a time when that was an architectural detail that people actually wanted for some reason. Anytime I see those, I like to undo them. So I prefer the kitchen really on like a flat wall. And the focal point to have like a focal point sort of centered within that wall. And then everything become built around that. So if it's the cook station that becomes the central point, and then you work your triangle off of that, or if it's the sink that becomes the central point, but there should be something that kind of centers the kitchen and then everything starts to flow around it. That tends to make the most effective traffic flow and workflow. And you have to. You have to approach a kinship because it truly is like a high functioning space. It's not just about the beauty, although it can it should be one of the most beautiful spaces in the home, but it has to be viewed first through the lens of how am I going to move in here? What is the actual working functionality? And when people don't put that as the priority for their decision making, they typically fall into the rut of like, you know. It's too spread out or these angles don't make sense or it doesn't make sense for me to go, you know, all the way from the left side to get the food prep, all the way to the right side to the sink prep.

speaker-0: Sounds like you're kind of saying it the kitchen needs to feel in intuitive and the movements need to feel natural within, not running all over the place.

speaker-1: Right. And so it's not it's not just about square footage. It truly is about placement and being really intentional about where each thing is going to occur and why. And I've seen a lot of really flawed kitchens where it just feels very forced because they were trying to make it really grand, maybe, or kind of this pocketed area. That's kind of a hard visual to depict.

speaker-0: Yeah. When it feels small and cramped, your movements are kind of constrained. But yeah, when it's too spread out, it's it almost seems like you're just all over the place. So it it needs to be very visually s sight you need to see where you're moving, how you're moving, and natural feeling in it. Yeah. Okay.

speaker-1: I want to hover hang there for just a second and give an example of, you know, we kind of talked about the extra prep station, but I will also include extra function in large space kitchens. So I love to put in multiple trash cans in in different areas of traffic flow for that exact reason. Because the trash should ideally be relatively close to the sink where you're going to be doing a ton of prepping. Yep. And also Close to the dishwasher, which should be close to the sink for the same purpose. But if you have a really large kitchen and you have multiple things happening, you should also have multiple trash stops to support each function. So you can like start with that dominant working triangle concept and then hone it in based upon each function separately identified.

speaker-0: And I think from a investment standpoint and looking at some of these larger kitchens that, you know, we've done and we've seen, you can have more than one working triangle. You know, you can have that kind of cooking working triangle, but then the drink area and and keeping certain movements out of the way of others, like like you've talked about here with the multiple trash can stations, like Having the trash can next to where you're cooking and you're prepping and doing everything is absolutely necessary. But then you also don't need to be inviting other people into that area while you're trying to cre cook and do things like that because it creates another bottleneck. So having that trash can over on the side of the island versus in your working triangle really, really manages some of that and creates a separate triangle to work in for others who are also in the area sharing it with you.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And it becomes very functional for everybody. All the moving parts. So you can have cooking happening simultaneously while you have, you know, gathering happening over here. And everyone's still together, but they're not, you know, there's no conflict of you're in my way, ⁓ you're in my way, stop coming over here, go over there.

speaker-0: Yeah, and and I think that buyers, ⁓ in this from an investment and real estate standpoint, buyers tend to like they respond to that even if they don't always understand why, because it's just intuitive and natural to them and with the design that you've laid out. So let's let's take that to the next level and it's like, okay, so with a large kitchen, you can make multiple triangles, things like that. But sometimes you can't always just expand the kitchen very easily. Maybe ⁓ maybe you've got to work with a slightly smaller area, but you can still make that feel bigger and more natural and things like that. And so what are some ways that we can, I guess, take and open that area so that it feels larger and more natural?

speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of natural light everywhere. So I don't prefer a kitchen that is on the interior of the home, meaning like all of the walls are interior. I see that a lot though. Especially probably really more new construction. It just depends. But if you have the ability to start with a clean slate, be very mindful about the kitchen placement. having an exterior wall where you can have real windows because natural light is going to tr influence the experience of the kitchen. And in addition to that, the scale of the windows is really important. So in our kitchen, the house that we live in now and I designed, you know, we have really, really tall ceilings. I think the ceilings are 12 feet. And I intentionally went with oversized windows.

speaker-0: They're almost five feet tall. Okay. They're they're large. They are very

speaker-1: ⁓ They're not very wide, no, but they're very large. And so the goal was to elongate and have the scale proportion match the architecture, which is the ceiling height. If you are in a position where you can start from scratch, you know, think about that. ⁓ you always want to complement the existing architecture. And if you're not, like you're doing a remodel, you know. you still want to really maximize your natural light as much as possible. Yeah. And make sure your scale's right. I mean, we had that investment house we did, which had it was like a 1970s home originally. And it did originally have windows, an exterior wall and windows exposed off the dining area, which was right off the kitchen.

speaker-0: Yeah. Giving a lot of that natural light, but they enclosed it and then

speaker-1: Yeah, somebody had come in, done an footprints expansion and just left that very awkward. But I knew when we were correcting it, we have to capitalize on the natural light, or else this whole kitchen would feel super dark, which would in turn make it feel much smaller and just stuffy. So that was a priority.

speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, I agree that the natural light really changes a lot of things, but there's there's other ways too to make that kitchen feel larger and and just more spacious so that things feel more open, which when it feels more open, it feels more comfortable. And one of the things I love to see that you do a lot is with the cabinetry. And that's taking the cabinets all the way to the ceiling. Because that it just gets your eyes to go up. Yeah. And to me makes the space feel bigger.

speaker-1: Yeah. It's like a pet peeve of mine when the cabinets, you know, stop short like a foot. And sometimes you'll even see it, you know, six inches, which is

speaker-0: Awful. It's dead space. It is.

speaker-1: It's dead space, but it really does have such a visual impact that it's worth the little bit of extra that it will cost to get the cabinets all the way up versus just having these awkward dead spaces. And I promise you, without a shadow of a doubt, it will make the whole kitchen feel much more elevated, much more expensive and more custom. Yeah, more custom. It's gonna give that wow that people want, which from the investment side, you know, you don't you want your house to move quickly. There's one way to do it. Like don't cut corners on cabinets that are not going to make the whole space feel elongated. And it's the exact same situation of scale and architecture. I mean, our ceiling height is 12 feet and the cabinets go all the way up 12 feet. Yeah. That's really, really tall. You don't always see that. If you don't do that and you have a really tall ceilings, then the next proposal would be having really intentional architectural details on the ceilings. So you could put, you know, like a coffer ceiling or some type of beam work or something that would still elongate the space and draw the eye up and have it make a very intentional statement of why the cabinet's stopping short.

speaker-0: Well, and I think for me too, and some of the older homes that we've looked at and we've worked in too, and taking those cabinets all the way to the ceiling when they stopped, you know, a foot, foot and a half short, you know, those homes didn't have a whole lot of tall ceilings. I mean, eight, nine feet. Yeah. It's about standard. But when you can take that to the to the ceiling, you're you're also adding storage space. Right. You're adding usability and function into that home. And from an investment aspect, that's something that people need and look for. Those houses. So that that in your design helps with that that movement. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah. Or another thing we see a lot of from an investment, like when we see people who flipped homes, you know, they get so trend heavy that sometimes they forget about these practical applications that actually are what drive livability and sellability. For example, you know, floating shelves have become very popular over the last several years. And it can help us face You know, that that's another illusion, by the way, which I'll get to in a second, about creating a bigger feel than it actually is. But you can overplay it to where you have no storage space. Yeah. And that becomes also equally problematic. Where, ⁓ I love it. It's so beautiful, but there's not enough storage space. There's nowhere to put my stuff.

speaker-0: Yeah, I don't want it I don't want everybody to see every pot and pan and dish I have because

speaker-1: Right. And in on the flip side, you know, we just did a kitchen remodel using floating shelves and also taking cabinets all the way to the ceiling where they were not existing to the ceiling. And it was a dramatic transformation. They needed the storage, which they didn't have before. But the floating shelves, the intention behind that was to keep the one window open and really accentuate all the natural light. And it was also the center of the wall for the kitchen, which had the sink right under it. So it became the focal point that didn't have enough concentration on it before. And with the cabinets too close to the windows, it actually pushes the light refraction back out the window instead of allowing all of the natural light to beam into the room. So I intentionally put floating shelves around the window to maximize the natural light. Give it the visual aesthetic, have the, you know, everything coming through the window. And then in turn, we took all the cabinets and took them all the way up to the ceiling, which I think was nine foot in that house. It was. Maybe ten.

speaker-0: No, actually that kitchen was a ten foot. It was ten foot.

speaker-1: So we went all the way up and it it was dramatically transformed.

speaker-0: And just to give our listeners a a visual on that, originally, yes, the cabinets were short of the of the ceiling. But around that window, they had the upper cabinets come all the way to the window and then an archway covering. So it almost made it like a a small cave look. And you took that and opened it up and yeah, you put the the floating shelves in there, but they're not massive shelves. I think they were only like eighteen or twenty four inches wide. Yeah. But it allowed the space to open and that that light to really come through.

speaker-1: I've never been on a submarine or a cruise, but that's what I'm thinking of. Like imagine if you had this little room and one little tiny window and then the light wasn't really coming into the space. That's essentially what it felt like. Having all of the cabinetry all around that window like that, it was it was just bad design because it was prohibiting the light from really coming into the room. So that was the goal of the floating shelves in that case.

speaker-0: So improving those sight lines, improving the natural light, or just the light in general. Mm-hmm. Because you can't always put that window in there. Some homes is just the way it was originally designed. You can't change that. But being able to improve that light and the the openness, the sight lines, the form and function really do move the needle for buyers.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And play architecture is is what's really important as well. And in addition, you know, the proportions, the scale I keep talking about, that's that's critical. That's also going to influence clutter and minimizing, you know, the congestion that can sometimes come with like the open shelf concept as an example. If I had you know, a ton of open shelves and I was using it a lot, ⁓ it could potentially look a little cluttered if I had too much open shelves and not enough closed cabinetry. That's one example. Yeah, I see that a lot when people do have that cabinet gap above or you know, I'm sorry, where the cabinets do not extend to the ceiling, then sometimes people will put stuff up there to fill in the gap and that can also look kind of cluttered.

speaker-0: Yeah. It was the old way of trying to decorate that and bring your eyes out. ⁓

speaker-1: Very on trend. So yeah, when the storage is intentional, that that really matters. And when the visual lines stay clean, because you can have, you know, like I was describing earlier, when I see a kitchen that has a lot of strange angles, it creates a visual distortion for me where i I become very distracted and it feels very cramped. So it could it could have a decent ⁓ square footage dedicated to the kitchen, but It just feels like it was shoved in the corner in this weird way or when the island is more of a triangular shape instead of like a square or a rectangle. I couldn't think of the shape. That's my preference personally and the way you flow and move about the space because you're going around more corners and angles than you really need to. It's almost like think of a like a galley kitchen where it's just straight down, you know, the flow is is designated simply and the triangle supports that simplicity. It doesn't have to be like overcomplicated. Yeah. So I prefer more of like a simple layout or a a U-shaped layout. Yeah. So being very intentional about the function early on.

speaker-0: Keep it simple. Yeah. And then back to your your point about the ⁓ the open shelves and too much clutter and you know, it kind of takes away, you know. And I think that a lot of people also think that by filling the space, they're completing the space. And I think that that can have a negative effect sometimes too, right? With the visual clutter of and confusion of too much going on.

speaker-1: Or forcing a a kitchen design that isn't supported by the architecture. You know, if you have sometimes in some of these older homes we've seen where they have almost like little pockets of the open concept, but they have upper cabinets in your line of vision. So meaning it was sort of a galley style kitchen and they had upper cabinets that maybe would be a wall on the backside into the living room. And then a small little like peek through window where you could kind of see into that room. So semi open custom. I'm not sure if maybe that was like an architectural design back in, you know, the eighties.

speaker-0: Yeah, it kinda was. Where they kinda had the floating hanging cabinet upper cabinetry.

speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. So to me that feels forced where you either have to completely open it if you can structurally do so or completely close it. Like don't try to put one foot in and one foot out. Like, are we open or are we close? And by the way, not every concept needs to be an open kitchen concept. Yeah. Sometimes it just doesn't fit the bill. So don't force it. That's what I'm saying. What is the original architecture? and cultural influence around the design of the house and then support it. Support it. And that's important as investors. Like don't go in there and just gut the house and try to make it something that it just it doesn't support. Because now it becomes awkward. And when somebody comes in, you usually have to fix what they didn't do.

speaker-0: Yeah. And so from an from the investor standpoint, or even just as a homeowner in general, too, like w this design that you have in the kitchen matters financially. Right. Because this is, again, one of the areas that moves the needles for future buyers or even just the feel and function flow of your own home. You know, there's there's a financial, there's a financial aspect to it, there's an emotional aspect to it. And the experience that you have in there and others are gonna have in there with you.

speaker-1: I mean, we've had clients come to us who just did a full renovation and two years later they're dissatisfied. You know, that should not be happening. That is not a successful, you know, investment. And it's costing people. It's costing them their, like you said, the enjoyment, how they're actually living it in it, and then having to redo it. That that's what we want people to avoid.

speaker-0: Yeah, so you know, and from that financial aspect, I mean, one of the biggest mistakes, yeah, is not solving the initial problem before you implement a design. And that's oftentimes a lot of what we've seen.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's exactly what happened in that house. They were so fixated on the aesthetic of updating the kitchen and creating the open concept that they missed completely missed the functionality and it affected how they lived. They didn't have the right storage capacity. It just it didn't support their life. They also went with a strange height on the

speaker-0: And it I mean it was a it was a fairly large kitchen too. And so again back to some of the point, it's ⁓ the larger kitchen is not always the better kitchen. Right. And if it is a small kitchen, there are ways to lay it out so that it feels bigger. Right. And make it what you need and and make it work for you, you know.

speaker-1: Yes, it's really about f honing in on that intentional experience before you do anything else. Because again, like like we said at the beginning of of this talking point today is the the emotional impact of a kitchen can influence the entire opinion of the property. Yeah. If somebody comes in and you've just flipped a house and you, you know, put it on the market and your kitchen is problematic, odds are Your house is probably gonna sit longer than it needs to. Yeah.

speaker-0: And this is exactly what the return on design is about.

speaker-1: Yes. Being very intentional, you know, before you start executing on making sure you understand, you know, logically why so that you can mitigate pain points. Yeah. And maximize. You know, I have a a coaching student that they live in LA. And so their house is, you know, relatively small compared to us out here in Texas. It's a totally different scenario. And she did a full kitchen remodel. And it's they love it. They absolutely love it. And they it's not big. It's not expansive. They didn't actually modify the square footage at all. They lended to the architecture. They opened up a few, they they gave it somewhat of an open concept, but didn't try to reinvent the wheel. It's it's more of a U-shaped and they they love it. It has those functional pieces that support the the true work aspect of, you know, what happens in a kitchen. And so it's just one example of why it's not just about square footage. Yeah. Trying to think of

speaker-0: Of oftentimes I think from from the investment standpoint, a more thoughtfully laid out kitchen will outperform that massive kitchen that's poorly designed more times than not. Yeah. Actually, I'm I'm gonna say way more than not.

speaker-1: Yeah. The lighting plan can really influence the perceived space also. So adding intentional under cabinet lighting, you know, target lighting like skull sliding. Yep. These are things that can also give the illusion of more space just from the light refraction and things like that. So that's another point we didn't quite touch on that.

speaker-0: We can we can also go into more of that with lighting, you know, and another.

speaker-1: I just thinking of the student I was talking about in her house, you know, they intentionally it was an older home and intentionally added that under cabinet lighting, which we did in this the recent kitchen remodel also. I added task lighting with scones above those floating shelves and also that under cabinet lighting.

speaker-0: Yeah, so you know, I guess to hit that hit that nail on the head a little bit more, it's it's not always about creating a bigger kitchen. It's about getting the biggest return on your design by being thoughtful and and intentional and making it feel and look and and flow work and perform better.

speaker-1: And maximizing that square footage to optimize what you already have and create, you know, that bigger feel. It looks bigger than it really is. Which one more example, I know we have talked about this before, but the kit a kitchen remodel we did where we relocated the pantry. So we did not change the square footage, the original footprint of the kitchen. But when we took out this pantry, we were able to get rid of one of those weird angles that I keep talking about. Yes. Bring it into a 90 degree and move the pantry just across the hall to a full walk-in pantry. So it created the illusion of a much larger kitchen. Although it was the same square footage they had before, that intentional layout of storage and function and flow. gave that illusion and that's exactly what we're talking about. That is going to produce that return on design. Yeah. Around the experience, the emotion, how they live in it, and the financial investment. Because it is beautiful.

speaker-0: All right. So ⁓ if you're if you enjoyed today's conversation, please follow us, like, subscribe, send us your questions, send us your thoughts, and we appreciate you.

speaker-1: Challenging you to think strategically about how to actually get a return on your design. Check us out at Real Return on Design on our socials, and we'll see you next time.