JJ Shankles: Welcome to n Welcome to the Welcome to another episode of the CoExtrusion Podcast. We are back and we've got a brand new printer back here. The brand new A to L by Bamboo Lab. So yeah, I don't know if you've heard anything about it yet. All the new the reviews dropped today.

Jerry: I have not heard anything about the A2L. I know I've heard a lot of things about Bamboo Lab floating around the news right now. So we'll talk about that at the end, right?

JJ Shankles: Yes. We could get into it now, you know, we could bounce it around. We'll cover it at the end, yeah. Yeah, I th let's dive into the so the HUL Yes, it's a very weird timing for them to launch a new printer. And it's it's weird, but it's kind of a large A one with a few little additional features to it. ⁓

Jerry: Well let's I'm I'm g I I'm curious about the A two L. So this is hot topic.

JJ Shankles: is basically the high level. That's the review of like, cool, it's a bigger A one. And I feel like in a lot of my review I was going back and forth of like, is this enough of an upgrade to be called the A two? Or is it it's really just like an A one L. But there are every new Bamboo Lab printer has features that aren't in any other printer. Like this one has these ⁓ physical vibration dampener beads in the top of it. So if you shake the printer it like rattles around because they added these physical dampeners. And there's also a active vibration compensation. So instead of you running like input shaper once and it's a static value, it's somehow actively monitoring the vibrations and actively compensating against those. So those were the two new features. Yeah.

Jerry: Interesting. So Interesting. So like ⁓ okay I wanna talk about the beads. So these beads are they like are they like a l an actual physical thing that is inside the fr so you said you shake it around you hear it.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. There's two sort of ⁓ at least from the picture that has like sort of an X ray look at the top crossbar, it's two capsules of beads in there. Of like little tiny pellets basically.

Jerry: Is is the idea when you sling the tool head one way, the bees go the other way and like mechanically balance the print balance the weight of the printer?

JJ Shankles: Yes, yeah. So as the bed is moving and as the tool head is moving, these physical beads will resist vibrations and bump against each other and that friction dissipates energy instead of it kind of creating a resonance and just bouncing around. Yeah.

Jerry: Hmm. Interesting. Okay, so ⁓ first question that sounds incredibly loud. Is it loud? No?

JJ Shankles: No, you you can't tell and even if I pick it up I pi in the review I pick it up and like shake it next to the mic and it's like a very faint like like I don't know what it is, but you can't like hear they're very f small, at least in the picture, they look tiny. Close to sand size, like you know, really small and so yeah, y the cooling fan is louder than whatever these beads are actually doing.

Jerry: So it's not metal beads or Interesting. Yeah. So is it in the tool head or is in it's in the frame? ⁓ that top crossbar. ⁓ okay. Huh. So is it like w does this come like most bedslingers now where the the top whatever this it's all assembled and you just bolt you just put two screws in the bottom and

JJ Shankles: It's in the frame, in the top crossbar of the yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, there were a few more screws than some like some bed slingers have been four screws and you're done. This was closer to ten screws, but still quick. Like you have to you attach the bed, you attach the top frame, you're good to go. Like you plug in a few things, it's quick.

Jerry: Yeah. So does that reduce the vibration compensation algorithm or does it just make it better or both?

JJ Shankles: Mm. Seems like it would reduce the amount that the vibration compensation has to solve for. Like if you're f you physically solve it before the computer has to fix things at the end. ⁓ yeah. Of kind of being a physical level of f fixing vibrations. 'Cause it's big. Yeah.

Jerry: That's what I'm thinking. Although There's less there's less vibrations that would affect the printer, which I wonder if that means the the small vibrations, the compensation can just skip over because those small vibrations are canceled out by the by the physical or by the mechanical. I don't wanna say mechanical compensation, but the mechanical compensation already cancels out the small ones. So instead of going through this

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.

Jerry: This many frequencies that go through this many kind of things. So that would mean it's faster. Interesting.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. And it's it is like inside there, so it's one of those where it's like I can't really get them out to k to test like with and without and all these it's like saw I didn't have. Well after sawing it performs way worse. So

Jerry: I don't know, you can use a saw Yeah This y you'll be the first one on YouTube. Well, I don't know, ma maybe not, but pr probably.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Someone else might beat me to sawing it in half. ⁓

Jerry: Okay, so there's new vibration compensation. It's a mechanical mechanical calibration. Or not even a calibration, it's a mechanical feature. And what was the other one? You said there's

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then an active vibration compensation. So something in the software, instead of doing like input shaper once where it measures vibrations, they say while it's printing it actively measures and dampens those vibrations that happen. It's another one of those like that sounds awesome, but I can't really test like on and you know, I can't turn it on and off to test with and without. ⁓

Jerry: Can't tell.

JJ Shankles: The vibrations seem great. Like I printed a really tall thirty millimeter ⁓ cylinder, printed at I always forget how tall it is. Three hundred and twenty five millimeters tall. And there was no ringing or ghosting all the way to the top. ⁓ everything I printed, there's no ringing or ghosting showing up, like everything

Jerry: You did a full three hundred and thirty millimeter tall how how how wide was it?

JJ Shankles: A tu a a thirty millimeter diameter tube in vase mode all the way to the top.

Jerry: Interesting. So that is kind of impressive because there is something to say for well, so if it was in vase mode okay, so I got a quest so that's a that's a vase mode sphere where the whole thing is like going around. I wonder if you're doing a square and the printer has more jerks.

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Because I've printed tall square items that definitely do this whole tall building like sway thing at w as you get past about two hundred millimeters. And I wonder if that would result in different performance. Because with the circle in vase mode, you're theoretically not picking up the nozzle, or I should say theoretically, you're not picking up the nozzle. ⁓ I I'm I'd be interested to know if that changes because

JJ Shankles: Я ⁓ huh. Mm. Yes, no retractions, no stopping, yeah.

Jerry: I I was going to say before you had me before I I picked up on what you said about 330 millimeters tall. I was gonna say, do any of these additional features really truly have value to the user? And I'm actually still wondering that because for one, how many people print over 200 millimeters tall, like narrow pieces that that that sway around a lot?

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: Probably not very many. But ⁓ Regardless, if that does work and it prevents the swaying of the part for some reason, I don't know if that like vibration compensation and preventing the part from physically moving are two different things. So

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that could be a good follow up test. ⁓ now that I I f it feels like I have all these tests I'm now like, ⁓ yeah, I should've run that for the video, but there's never enough time, you know. But printing printing a tall ⁓ cube or rectangular prism at this this tall

Jerry: Yeah. You can you can never predict all of it. Yeah.

JJ Shankles: Very thin, printed on this and the H two D I also is also similarly tall. So that over three hundred millimeters on both of them and see kind of how they compare. 'Cause they're both bamboo printers, both tall, but this one supposedly has these new features.

Jerry: Yeah. Well, so on the H two D you would theoretically not saying it's the case, I know, but you'd theoretically have less of that wiggle because it's a Core XY. However, that's not in in in actuality, that's not really how that works, because I have printed a 270 or 300 millimeter tall part on the K one ⁓ or the K two plus and which is a Core XY as well. I still got that sway. I

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: I am a little curious about that. I feel like there's just too much friction of the nozzle touching the part and that makes the part actually pull. But

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. Friction of that. Or even just the the tool head is swinging around and it is shaking the printer. Like the tool head does shake the printer, even though the bed's not moving, like yeah.

Jerry: Yeah, yeah. That's fair, yeah. That's true. So anyway, it's it it's a curiosity because if you're never gonna get around you're never gonna get away from having the printer physically not shake the part, which causes bad part quality unless you print slower. But if the if these extra if these added ⁓ technologies are

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: s algorithms that bamboo's included solve another problem that I that's good to know. It's I'm still curious like how many people print parts so tall that that these additional algorithms make sense? And if the additional algorithms don't d do they make short normal parts have better quality?

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. I think it could be i I think this is kind of like the extreme example, but this is just like a yeah, the extreme example to show. But if it can improve your normal prints by a few percentage here or there. ⁓ but it's also weird when reviewing bamboo printers. Like they all print so well. Like everything I chems off this printer is like it looks good, but I can't tell what printed on this or the regular A one or the A one mini or the H two D, like

Jerry: So I gotcha. All right. That's what so that's kind of what I'm getting. And that was a that was my next question. So can you tell the di if if you printed a benchy on the A1, the A1 Mini, the A2L, H2D, you know, get you get throw them all in a bucket, okay? And you shake them up, same color, same everything, and you pull one out.

JJ Shankles: All the bamboo printers print the same. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oof.

Jerry: Can you tell which one was printed on? I'm gonna go with the A2L because it's the newer printer with these new features, right? Could you tell which one was print on there? Because if you can't, my next question is: what is the price difference? And is this bamboo throwing more features at a printer and saying, you as a user need to buy this new printer because it has this new feature, which, from a consumer standpoint,

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: New feature better, new feature better, but is new feature better if I already have old printer that's just as good?

JJ Shankles: Yeah. I think

Jerry: Like, if I don't have a printer, new feature better. If I do, is it worth upgrading?

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I think to answer the question, I don't think I could. Like, because I have so I have these two Lego torches that I printed, one on the H T and one on the A two. And before making this video I was looking at them and I was like, I think I remember which one I printed on which printer. And I think I was trying to look at the the PEI pattern on the bottom of the print to see

Jerry: ⁓ no, to confirm.

JJ Shankles: which one came from which printer and I like, I just don't know anymore, like the

Jerry: That's that's a pretty solid truth, actually, from my understanding of a lot of printers. And so I I would say given the right person with enough experience with both machines, have it print on a K2 Plus, have it print on a K1C, have it print on an X1 carb or an H2D. I do think the right person with the right level of experience could make

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: a determination between let's say bamboo and creality or possibly the K2 Plus versus the K1C. I think those are all possibilities, but generally speaking it's it's like a really it's a really difficult sell for me as a creator to be like if you don't buy this new printer, you are missing out. Because like

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry: When these new A to L, I don't know what the price on the A to L is. I'm assuming I'm assuming it's like four hundred bucks.

JJ Shankles: They're good, yeah. S ⁓ four seventy for it, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Yeah, so a little bit of a different story there. Four seventy, some people just have four hundred seventy dollars to spare and they wanna upgrade, but okay, H two D.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. And it's bigger. Like the main feature is that it's bigger. For like the regular A one is three hundred bucks. This is a hundred and seventy bucks more. But you're getting a much bigger printer. And so it's kind of like that's what you're buying is the printer. You're not buying all these other little features are like, Hey, we've developed new features, so like we're gonna add it. Here it is. So I feel like the price point to me fits hits a good price point for like

Jerry: That's a good reason. That's a good reason up to grade. Yeah.

JJ Shankles: It's right between the P two S and the A one and it's a bigger A one, like

Jerry: The the bigger footprint is definitely a reason to purchase, but in the back of my head, it is mar it is not like I as as technology and cr like you you have to advance technology in order to get better, but in the back of my head it is still marginally frustrating. It's like, ⁓ as a consumer I'm paying more money because you developed a feature, which doesn't really matter.

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Which one does and which one doesn't matter, right? Unless until you develop it, you don't know that it does or doesn't matter. You have to do the research and the development and the manufacturing and the testing in order to in order to confidently say this is unnecessary. But at the same time, I don't know. D do you see what I'm saying? Like

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I g I get what you're saying. And I do think a part of it is that the benchies are so easy, are now too easy for these printers to make. Like in the past it was kind of difficult to make the front hull of the boat straight and make the overhangs work on the boat, but now like the benchy is so easy. And so it's more like edge cases. So like printing this and I should go back and try to print something like this on the A one to see, in a difficult scenario. how much of a difference is there? Or like the enclosed H series printers are way more expensive, but it's enclosed and you can print hotter temperatures and CorexY doesn't have those vibrations for more delicate prints. Like there are other features, but if you're just t testing a PLA Benshe is like that's as ⁓ as difficult as getting it out of the box. Like that is the most easy to print thing.

Jerry: I think you've just uncovered a real problem here. So this is like ⁓ how money in f like like inflation and the value of your dollar every year is less and less. The value of the benshee is less and less every year, and we're to the point now where the value of the benshee is very little. And I actually think I do I I actually the fact that you brought that up is like blowing my mind right now because I think that's a very true statement. We need to

JJ Shankles: Ha ha. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: The Benchy no longer is a benchmark. Because every printer can do it right out of the box. And it used to take how long? Forty-five minutes to print a Benchy with bad quality? Fifty minutes or the

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. Where forty-five was like, ⁓ this is pretty good. It's only forty-five. Like my first printer was like an hour and a half standard print profile. Like

Jerry: Yeah, now an Ender 3 you're printing it at 40 millimeters per second, and so it's an hour and a half, you have bad part cooling, you have drooping under the under the cabin doors, and now it's like, ⁓ yeah, out of the box, I printed this thing with like nine minutes, eight minutes. Well, maybe maybe we're like hacking the hacking the G code to print faster and faster, but

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Fift fifteen minutes, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Doesn't matter. You're still printing it ultimately in like eight minutes and the quality's pretty freaking good. So how do we fix the benchy? Do we need to make the steering wheel be a print in place thing so the steering wheel actually turns? And do we need to put like mini wheels on the bottom of the benchy? This way it can like actually drive along the ground. I mean it's boat, not a car, but like

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ha ha. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I do think more the accuracy isolation of print and part gears or bearings, you know, those like it's gotta be close but not touching to slide together and stuff, like that could be Yeah, put a door on there.

Jerry: Like put a cabin door on the benchy. Make it hinged, a a print in place hinge. And like I remember when I was a kid, my Hot Wheels cars, half of ⁓ would have doors that opened, and the other half would just be solid doors. Maybe the solid doors ones were like the fake Hot Wheels, not the real ones. Maybe the real ones had like a hood that actually moved up and down. So like what do we need this do we need to update the benchy? Does it need to be rebenchmarked?

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ those are the cool ones, yeah. Yeah, like a new benchmark I think. It's it's kind of time because yeah, it's they're too easy and Yeah.

Jerry: This is like I think this is the bread and butter of this conversation right now. It's not the fact that the A2L exists. It's not the fact that it has new beats or this active dampener or that it's bigger. I think it's that printers are too good now and we need all of this new technology that we're putting into printers might not be necessary. But even if it is necessary, we can't we can't value it. We or we can't eva sorry, we can't evaluate it.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yes, we can't evaluate it with a benchy. But I think a benchy that fits what we want nowadays. So something like a multicolor benchmark or articulation on the part, like how an articulated print back in twenty seventeen was difficult and challenging and impressive. But now it's like okay, cool, that should be standard. Like that should be on the benchmark printer to have some articulation, some wheels, some moving parts, some

Jerry: Mm. ⁓ Yeah.

JJ Shankles: ⁓ multicolor features to it to be like, ⁓ your printer has to be able to do this and that, like

Jerry: Bring out good points. A long time ago, why was articulation difficult? Because betadiesion was hard. So if you lose one piece on a on a seventy five piece dragon, whole thing's done. If you those usually those articulated models have really fine fine ⁓ bridges and gaps that need to be made, or bridging in general was hard or all of the yeah. Multicolour printing, they used ⁓ it used to be

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Done. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: Only way to do multicolor was if you had an IDEX printer and you had IDEX calibration. Or some printers some printers they had two two Bowden tubes fitting into one nozzle and they were both they there you had two external extruders and so it's kind of the same as we have now except kind of different. But you you had a Y splitter in there and so there were very few models to calibrate those. ⁓

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Manual swaps like Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Well the the er then the the next interesting feature of this is now it has a the pin plotter and the cutting module. So on the front cover you lift up the cover, same as how you change the nozzles on these printers, but there's two grooves and you slide on a little vinyl cutting model. So I've done a bunch of like vinyl, here's a little binshe, a little logo,

Jerry: That's interesting. All right. ⁓ so well ⁓ that's actually pretty cool. Built in. So we're talking about like just a literal mechanical addition. You just slot a marker in. Okay, so nothing really major here, nothing wild and I just the fact that it's built into the printer and presumably it can be sliced in Bamboo Studio. Or not sliced, but yeah.

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a different it it's bamboo suite, so it's a it's a slight it's a slightly different software, but the bamboo has a software for it. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got a there's a plug on the top of the hot end that's new. So when you put the module on, you plug it in and the printer the firmware it feels like it switches. Kind of like how ⁓ cameras when you switch from like video to photo mode, it's like totally different firmware, different buttons, y the memory card

Jerry: But provided easy to use, you put in a 2D model and it c okay, that ac I do like that. Yeah, yeah.

JJ Shankles: doesn't pull up G code anymore. It pulls up only the two dimensional files to it. So you can't even tell it to print or somet you know, it's like two dimensional things, three dimensional things. ⁓ cuts really well. Yeah, basically.

Jerry: Interesting. Interesting. So is that all the all the new features in the A two L?

JJ Shankles: Yeah, I think I covered them all. That's all like. Uh-huh.

Jerry: So it is it's difficult to recommend just from I mean, I haven't used it, so I could never possibly be a guy that could recommend it right now. But it's difficult for me to when I say recommend, it's difficult for me to want to purchase that, seeing as there's very few features. But like I Interestingly enough, I would say that the plotting the plotting might actually be more valuable to a lot of people than

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Both the size and the active and passive ⁓ because like that is a very easy to use new additional a new function to the printer. It's like lasering and CNC might be new, but it's not easy to use and it requires a lot of cleanup and learning some new advanced software. This is simple. Or those are simple.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so it was surprisingly easy. ⁓ just like you put it on there, you tell it which material it is, and it's fast as well. ⁓ I was kind of expecting things to take a while. After like lasers always surprise me at how long it takes 'cause everything's so high resolution. But like cutting out this like really complex benchy line drawing took this one was a longer one, it was like two minutes. It's like, ⁓ wow, yeah. Like most things are like, ⁓ this will take thirty seconds to draw

Jerry: As long as two minutes. That's crazy.

JJ Shankles: Cut out my logo and it's like zip zip zip zip zoop done. Like ⁓ so that's a feature that I could see, and I think it's a really great, it's something like 80 bucks to add on that hardware bundle. ⁓ you have to buy that separately, yeah. But I do think that makes a good upgrade path for like you buy the printer, and then the whole if you like it a year later, you get to buy.

Jerry: That's crazy. ⁓ you gotta pay for that? ⁓ 80 bucks is not an expensive upgrade. It's it's not like it's not extra value, right? Because you don't get it for free, but 80 bucks isn't expensive. So so kind of transitioning a little bit, do you think people are going to be buying the A2L based on all of the as Lewis Rossman calls it, dumpster fire that bamboo is right now? Do you think this printer and maybe even future printers are going to be affected by

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jerry: this. So Bam this is not the first time Bamboo Lab has been in a pickle. It's not the first time they've been in a potential legal battle. ⁓ but this one seems more serious. The community seems to rally a lot more.

JJ Shankles: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like there's a lot of ⁓ mob mentality around it right this time. Like I feel like I feel like it's overblown right now. Like the they didn't do anything that bad. And I feels weird to take this kind of feel like I'm taking the side of the big corporation. ⁓ they're not sponsoring me. They just sent me a printer. Like I use a lot of bamboo stuff, but like

Jerry: So everyone ⁓ sorry.

JJ Shankles: They went after someone who made a plug in that uses their servers. And it's like, well yeah, they're gonna tell him to stop using their servers. Like you can still use any filament you want. You can still use any slicer you want. You just can't access their servers to send your files between your own slicer and their printers.

Jerry: So he's not accessing their servers, right? He just

JJ Shankles: I thought he was he made a thing th it basically replicated the network plug in so that on Orca Slicer you could send through the bamboo cloud. That's what how I understood.

Jerry: So yeah, and just clarification for all the viewers here, I don't think either of us are, and I don't want to necessarily speak for you, JJ, but I don't think either of us are like the single number one source for this. It's ⁓ so definitely go listen to to someone else that might have even more information. My understanding is that he took Bamboo Lab's code that they already wrote and he just like he just like

JJ Shankles: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: realived it. Like Bamboo Lab Bamboo Lab ⁓ deprecated the code essentially and he just went and uncovered it and reused it. I don't think he s so did he write a brand new piece of software or a tool using their code?

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. But what it does. No. He he yes, he did take something that was on their forked thing. And s but I I feel like that doesn't excuse what he did. Like he still was using their servers to or like it spoofs

Jerry: He was sending he was sending something through their servers.

JJ Shankles: through their servers to his printer. ⁓ and the excuse that but the f the code was already out there is like, yeah, but you're still like getting around like their security was bad. It's bad on them. Like they should have hidden that that line of code should not be on the open source things. Yeah.

Jerry: That was my next question, right? That was my next question. So if bamboo and I'm not taking either side here, ⁓ because I don't I don't really care that much. I I don't like the idea of a big brand trying to take down an individual person and sue them for their whole life savings, but ⁓ I'm not taking any side. But ⁓ so

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: Bad just just because Bamboo Lab had bad security doesn't mean you can rob them, right? So like if a bank has bad security, you can't just say, Hey, by the way, you left your vault unlocked on ⁓ Friday afternoon, so I walked in and took some cash. You can't do that, right? ⁓ Yeah, I mean that's a that's that's a value I mean, that's a reasonable standpoint to have. ⁓ I don't I don't think I agree with it or disagree with it, but it's th there's right and wrong from both sides. J because like

JJ Shankles: Yeah. The door was open. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: Is is it right for a for a big brand to protect what is theirs? Yes. But also how much of Bamboo Lab's code is not open source when it should be?

JJ Shankles: Yes. Yeah. I think that's a much bigger argument of like, ⁓ that network plug in should be open source. Like these things more things should be open source that aren't. ⁓

Jerry: So next question. Bamboo Lab is running on this AGPL license. Everything of theirs that you that that lives on the backbone of an open source network needs to be released to the community. So question. If they are entitled or if they by law or by the license are required to release all of their source code, and unfortunately they had a bad they wrote bad code, which requires releasing the code to

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Send files to their servers. Does that mean if if if bamboo lab is entitled to do that, does that mean everyone individually is allowed to send to their servers? Because if bamboo lab doesn't want you to send to their servers, they could block they're sorry, they they could they could modify their servers to require license keys to to not accept incoming traffic. So

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: By by way of not having that added security, does that like does is that like implied implied acceptance? Because your code should be open source. You are their their code is entitled to be open source. I don't know if I'm conveying like it's it's it's a curiosity for me because

JJ Shankles: Hmm. Yes. The yeah, that's a complex ⁓ No, I don't I don't think that it means they've complied just because they put bad security in place. ⁓ I

Jerry: I if I leave I guess I guess that goes back to my same consideration earlier, right? Like except okay, if I leave my front door unlocked, ⁓ it I'm not implying that you I'm not implying that you're allowed to come to my house and do my d

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean stealing is Yeah.

Jerry: Yeah, no, it's it's interesting. So I so I haven't read the Bamboo Lab I haven't read the Bamboo Lab terms of service, but I wonder if somewhere in the terms of service of creating a Bamboo Lab account, it says you're not allowed to send traffic to our network without using Bamboo Studio. Because that would say, hey, I have an unlocked door.

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Jerry: I've released all my source code, which they haven't. I've I've released all my source code. This is how you access my house, but you're not allowed to do it unless you use my software. So I don't know, maybe that's another term service. I it's an interesting it's yeah.

JJ Shankles: Yes, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Could be, but still loose. Yeah. It's it's a lot of like Yeah, I feel like they should have done things better and should have better security. But also I do understand why they would they I don't even think they sent like send a cease and desist if they even did, or it was just a threat of cease and desist to him of like Yeah. Which is the most mild way of saying like, Hey, you can't do that, like

Jerry: Yeah, I know it was at least a threat. I don't know if they actually did. Yeah.

JJ Shankles: Which is like, yeah, brands are gonna do that. Yeah, like it they've done a bamboo has done a lot of bad things and I don't think sending the threat of a cease and desist is the worst thing they've done. But I still like the lot that Bamboo Lab has done.

Jerry: No. Yeah, no, y you're right, right? Like they're a big brand, right? Right or wrong, they they need to protect what they've done in some way, right? Like if they've chosen to use open source code, but they want to protect all of their what they would what they want to call proprietary, which

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: it it can't I guess it can't be because it's open source or it should be. If they want to protect all of that, then they should have gone a different route and they should have started from the ground up instead of taking the taking the cheat code and and using what already exists. ⁓ I'm curious, do you do you think this might so if if this turns into if this turns into a true legal battle that goes to the court systems and takes however many months or years to flush out

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry: Would it make sense for Bamboo Lab to start from the ground up and write their own firmware and their own source that has nothing to do with this AGPL license? Would that make sense?

JJ Shankles: I I don't know. I've been thinking about that of like I could see them 'cause their firmware they claim is all their own. Like it's the firmware on the printers is not open source, so none of that is released. So they would just have to create a slicer, which would be hard and would take a while. ⁓ but they also I do think they like open source and they like the community they've built, like they like all of these things, but they just kinda want to skirt around it in this little way. ⁓

Jerry: They like all these things because all these things come with a massive community for free. Orca Slicer has at this point eighty percent, ninety percent of the community that come with it. And do you want to start over kind of thing, right? ⁓

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Yeah. Well Orca Slicer is built on Bamboo Lab. Like it's people taking what Bamboo Lab did and saying, Hey, we really like that Bamboo Lab made this great interface. We wanna keep it going with Orca Slicer. Like they which is just kind of a funny thing. But how their maker world they're like the crowdfunding thing on Maker World where like they support creators and designers and all of these things. Like they're they're not this big bad company.

Jerry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JJ Shankles: hating on people where they're like, No, we want to help you crowdfund your projects. We want to do unless

Jerry: Un unless unless they're two faced, and I'm not saying they are, because I don't have a very strong relationship with them. I don't know one way or the other. Unless they're two faced, which is very possible. There are p people in the real not talking about organizations, but people, individuals can surprise you because that that's what two faced is. You're one person around me and you're different person around someone else. And maybe Bamboo Lab is one way towards the community.

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Jerry: One way towards the community, we want to give you everything, but same way or a different way towards the same community. But two faces to the same person, in which case, hey, you like, you know, I'm still I'm still in charge of you. You can't do this. We're gonna give you this, but you can't have that. I don't know. I it I I'm I'm probably not explaining that very well, but

JJ Shankles: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry: It'll be interesting to see how this one shakes up, because this one is definitely the biggest piece of news that has come of Bamboo Lab.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. And the biggest push towards it. And I think that's to me it feels like to me everyone is reacting as if they've stopped allowing other slicers to be used or other firmwares to be or other filaments to be used. And at that point I would freak out and would not use another you know, like I would not use a bamboo printer if they were like, You have to use bamboo filament on our printers. I'd be like, ⁓ well no, cool. Like I'm done. Like, you know.

Jerry: Yeah. No. If you if you push a firmware update that somehow bricks my machine unless the RFID tag recognizes a bamboo lab spool, then I'm out.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think they know that that would be ridiculous. But the whole ⁓ it has to go through their s even and it doesn't have to go through their servers. You can do LAN only mode. You can send directly from your computer to your things without using their servers. But I don't mind my files going through a server. I don't care. Like I just don't care.

Jerry: Yeah, I I'm I'm the same way, ultimately. As an as an individual, I don't really care. I I use Google and a lot of people use Google and it tracks me to and from work. It tracks me to the grocery store, it tracks me everywhere. They can ha they can know what I'm printing. I don't care. I'm not printing anything illegal. ⁓ but well, anyway we're To an Ender Three. I'd take it to a modified Ender Three.

JJ Shankles: There's also that level of yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if I was printing illegal things, I would take it on a micro SD card and walk it to the printer. Like it's it's that I mean I you could you could walk it to your bamboo printer and they don't know it's on there. Like, you know, the like if the workaround is this like, ⁓ your few hidden things you wanna hide. Every time you're printing your social security 3D printing your social security number, I'll put it on a S D card, I'll walk it to the printer. Cool. Didn't go through the cloud. Like that always exists as an option.

Jerry: ⁓ that well that's also true. Yeah. I'll rip I'll rip the Wi Fi chip out.

JJ Shankles: I don't know. I feel like people are overreacting and bandwagoning when it's like that's my take. Yeah.

Jerry: That's fair that's a fair assessment. Yeah. Well, we are six minutes late. This is the longest podcast we've ever recorded. Guys, if you have any thoughts or considerations about ⁓ either the A two L or what's happening with the Bamboo Lab in the news right now, put them in the comments down below. I'm curious to read them. I wanna see what you guys are thinking. we post every Friday at nine AM, ⁓ which means ⁓ we'll be posting in four days. So Make sure you watch us at nine AM. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, we're recording this on Monday. There you go, that makes sense. And alright, make sure to leave a like and subscribe. Yep. Bye.

JJ Shankles: Yeah. That lets us know w lets you know when we're recording this. Yeah. This is a Monday, yeah. Yep, and we'll see you next week. Bye.